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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Jun 2017 : 01:58:19
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Greetings, I am a DM who is celebrating their one year anniversary of dming by knocking it out of the part with my Out Of The Abyss game- I even acquired some Third Edition books on FR and the underdark, and I am spiraling into madness, researching teases and oversights from this adventure book.
CANDLEKEEPERS I SEEK YOUR COLLECTIVE KNOWLEDGE
I want my legendary artifacts, especially those that talk, to have a real physical origin in the game setting. Where the heck did Dawnbringer come from, who the heck was Brysis of Khaem, and what were they doing with Dawnbringer? Below is a blocked up showing of my process of trying to find meaning in Dawnbringer's short description, and an underlying theory that is utterly as mad as the wonderland that inspired Perkins in the first place.
Prologue: Inconsistencies and Oddities
From my study of this website, barely anyone has discussed OOTA content in depth since release, and the term DAWNBRINGER only had one result- about the book. I also understand that some or many of you dislike Chris Perkins... interesting take on Forgotten Realms. If the answer to my questions is ever "Chris didn't think about it" then dammit we can do better!
My research into OOTA issues started on D&DBeyond, in this thread. https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/dungeon-masters-only/3318-oota-lore-inconsistency-stonespeaker-hgraan-and
There, I review my cross referenced dates and names between my books and wikis. Click the link if you want to hear about how the dev team might have made a one letter typo with the name Stonespeaker Hgraan.
Chapter 1: Casually dropping the Netheril Bomb
Okay, upon first review of the Lost Tomb chapter of OOTA, I was excited to see something grand from Forgotten Realms history, the legendary Netheril. However, of all the well documented floating islands of the Netherese, none were called Khaem and no Brysis was ever mentioned. What the hell is with this tomb, and how did it get dozens of miles from the desert to the east? (The desert which only formed following the fall of the Netheril, which means the tomb may have moved even further.) The floating islands of Netheril were only falling for maybe a few minutes, as some were saved by the newly rising Mystra. How did this tomb get so far west, and who was Brysis?
Chapter 2: Forged by ancient sun worshipers...? That's it?
Dawnbringer is extremely peculiar. "Created by Sun Worshipers" leaves much to be speculated. Does this mean Lathander? What orders of Lathander date back to the time of Karsus' Folly? And just how old is this sword? Is it possible that the sword was ancient even when Brysis obtained it? Is it possible that the "sun worshipers" have something to do with the Sun Elves? Could it be that Brysis took the sword from the magically powerful elves, or that it was created in their image? After-all, there is one thing tying sun elves, the nether, and the creation of magical artifacts, a secret I would gladly take to my tomb. A key.
Chapter 3: The Nether Scrolls, and Ars Factum
Ars Factum, the legendary fifth set of Nether Scrolls, which describes the creation of magical artifacts. This set of scrolls could not be understood without some kind of key, or rather- the powerful wizards of Windsong supposed that they needed some key as their attempts to use the Ars Factum always failed. There were theories that the race of the reader may have had to do with the key. Ars Factum's key was, as I see, never revealed and thought to be a DM-Choice-Goes-Here situation. There is only one place I see where Ars Factum was ever read successfully, and that
Chapter 4: The Gold is the Key
The Sun Elves were also known as the Gold Elves. The last beings known to properly use the fifth scroll were the elves of Myth Drannor, with the use of the GOLDEN GROVE Quess'Ar'Teranthvar. Myth Drannor is populated by Eladrin- who were High Elves. The Sun Elves were considered a breed of High Elves. Gold is everywhere, and Dawnbringer is a gilded sword hilt. The biggest issue of Quess'Ar'Teranthvar is that the elves were able to supposedly understand the fifth, and a kind of sixth chapter by the creation of the golden dragon. This way to rearrange and walk through the whole set is fascinating, but doesn't quite fit with how the Ars Factum specifically was a keyed document.
Chapter 5: Brysis and her Sword
What if, somehow, by some insanity, Dawnbringer is related if not -the- key to the Ars Factum. Something that an ancient Netherese wished not to fall into the hands of anyone. What if Brysis of Khaem had figured this out, and took the sword into their tomb, and sunk it far away? Many people, including myself, wonder why a creature evil enough to rise as a Wraith would be clutching such a holy artifact so close to their chest? Dawnbringer burns evil creatures who wish to wield it, what if Brysis was a good hearted creature turned evil by the underdark or somehow by the aftermath of Gromph's spell? What if Brysis knew that Dawnbringer could be used as a key to the Ars Factum, to restore Netheril's mythallars? Or maybe that Dawnbringer could be used to bring an end to them?
You don't just get to play around with the Netheril and legendary artifacts, Perkins! THERE MUST BE SOMETHING! You can't just introduce major artifacts that enabled magical powers beyond the limits of Mystra's ban into a universe via a level two party in a fifth edition module!!! And more importantly, how the bloody heck does anyone explain it even being within two hundred miles of VELKYNVELVE?! Three hundred miles from the buried realms? I've cross referenced three books infront of me, scoured two forums, and crashed my browser with all these wikis- someone- please explain Dawnbringer! -faints-
Appendix: Times the Nether Scrolls were discussed before here.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14174
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14212&SearchTerms=Quess%27Ar%27Teranthvar
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5480&whichpage=2&SearchTerms=Quess%27Ar%27Teranthvar
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17592&whichpage=2&SearchTerms=Quess%27Ar%27Teranthvar
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19062&whichpage=2&SearchTerms=Quess%27Ar%27Teranthvar
This was thrilling to research and write, come on- who has the best Forgotten Realms canon under their understanding? Who can try to put this puzzle together? Or is Brysis' tomb just something to completely ignore? Come on- even the random tower from the Labyrinth chapter canonically might reference the Daern's Instant Fortress that is mentioned in the 3rd edition Underdark book. Dawnbringer has to have some secret meaning- what sun worshippers? Why the Netheril? What was Khaem?
-Patt
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Edited by - PattPlays on 02 Jun 2017 02:00:48
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2017 : 02:38:06
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quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
Greetings, I am a DM who is celebrating their one year anniversary of dming
First and foremost, congrats! I hope you've enjoyed your first year, and have many more ahead of you!
Unfortunately I can't answer most of your questions, as it seems you've done more research than I have. So maybe congrats on that too.  But I can maybe help with some ideas.
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
However, of all the well documented floating islands of the Netherese, none were called Khaem and no Brysis was ever mentioned.
We don't know that none of them were named Khaem. We don't even have all the names for all the Netherese cities, and it's possible that Khaem wasn't a city. Khaem and Brysis could easily have been made up for OOTA, having never been mentioned before.
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
how did it get dozens of miles from the desert to the east?
Jiksidur and Orbedal were hundreds of miles outside Netheril when the Fall came. Sakkors and others were also outside Netheril's "borders." It seems likely that the enclaves (and Khaem if it could fly) could go anywhere on Toril.
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
(The desert which only formed following the fall of the Netheril, which means the tomb may have moved even further.)
Also not entirely true. The desert formed as a result of lifedrain spells cast by the phaerimm, and this started well before the Fall occurred, and continued for some time afterward. The creation of Anauroch was a process, not an instantaneous thing.
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
"Created by Sun Worshipers" leaves much to be speculated.
Lathander doesn't seem to have existed prior to the Fall. The Netherese god of the sun was Amaunator. It's likely that if the sun worshipers were Netherese, they were followers of Amaunator.
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
And just how old is this sword? Is it possible that the sword was ancient even when Brysis obtained it?
Good questions. I don't know the answers.
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
Is it possible that the "sun worshipers" have something to do with the Sun Elves?
Unlikely, but I guess ultimately possible.
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
The last beings known to properly use the fifth scroll were the elves of Myth Drannor, with the use of the GOLDEN GROVE Quess'Ar'Teranthvar.
I believe the Golden Grove was created from a full set of the Nether Scrolls. There were two full sets, and the elves obtained one. So Ars Factum would have been part of that.
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
Myth Drannor is populated by Eladrin- who were High Elves. The Sun Elves were considered a breed of High Elves.
Eh... yes and no? The eladrin reference was unique to 4th edition, and it was a mistake imo. In earlier editions, elves were elves and eladrin were eladrin... two different types of beings. The eladrin were native to the CG outer planes, not the Prime Material. 4e blended them together; a bit of not-smartness that has resulted in confusion and annoyance.
The elves of the Realms are not the same as the elves of the Monster Manual. Sun/gold elves logically take the place of high elves -- their egos are certainly high up in the clouds. But I thought there were more moon elves than gold elves in Myth Drannor... anyway, that's off topic.
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
This way to rearrange and walk through the whole set is fascinating, but doesn't quite fit with how the Ars Factum specifically was a keyed document.
I dunno, I don't see a problem with it. Interacting with one part of the grove (the first set of scrolls for instance) doesn't necessarily mean you can understand the entire grove. I would think each part would have a key (of some sort) of its own.
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
You don't just get to play around with the Netheril and legendary artifacts, Perkins!
Sure he does! It's a much-used technique with a long history! In fact, he might not get his Christmas bonus if he doesn't introduce some kind of chaos during the year. (I dunno, just sayin.)
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
I've cross referenced three books infront of me, scoured two forums, and crashed my browser with all these wikis- someone- please explain Dawnbringer! -faints-
Heh my advice is to get what you can from it, ask questions and consider whatever answers you get, and insert cool details of your own devising to fill the remaining holes. Good luck and happy celebrating!
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2017 : 03:47:35
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I love how you responded to this, and I assure anyone else reading this that I absolutely adore this kind of frustration. Your clarifications are exactly what I needed on the finer details. Thank you! Let's go deeper!
I posted this thread here specifically to search for more lore clarifications, but I will say on the homebrew side of things that I will tease that Dawnbringer has some history with the nether scrolls that it cannot remember (Dawnbringer is going insane in my world, going full Yandere with its wielder and screaming in terror if it is ever sheathed) - I will have a diary of some kind for the party to read, having Brysis vaguely describe taking her secret with her to the grave, witnessing the "end of the world" as their island sunk from the sky.
If you want to see even more odd story overlaps, please hit the first link in my post and read my other notes on the underdark. In summary:
-Stonespeaker Hgraan in 3E _Underdark) book, Stonespeaker Hgraam in OOTA.
-Three Duergar kings in the course of a year.
-How the hell did Orcus get his wand back and when.
-Has anyone here played Sword Coast Legends and can tell us something more than "Cyrog was revived and was bad"
-Where is Demogorgon even GOING?
-The Menzoberranzan chapter casually slides in the fact that Drizz't Do-Urden's moon elf girlfriend's reanimated brainwashed currently insane corpse figurehead leads the recently for some reason reinstated and rebuilt Do-Urden house and nobody really has any complaints about this, even the lesser houses who all got skipped and the fact that House Baenre is buddy buddy with them HOW IS THAT NOT SUSPICIOUS AND LEFT TO BE ONE LINE IN A TABLE AT THE BOTTOM OF A PAGE?
-passes out- |
:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:
https://thisisstorytelling.wordpress.com
T_P_T |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2017 : 04:08:41
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quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
-Where is Demogorgon even GOING?
Back to the Upside-Down.  |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2017 : 04:12:57
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Wait wait- what about the demon lords- I haven't even gotten to them!
Lloth- currently an intermediate goddess who's continuing mission is to screw over anyone else in her pantheon and completely dominate the dark elves. It's a brilliant idea as a game designer to unleash demon lords into the Underdark, but as proud as Lloth is about this whole endeavor, what about the possible outcome of the complete and total destruction of menzoberranzan by the dark heart ritual? Wouldn't that be against her duty as their goddess to allow that? If her goal is to flood the abyss with her kin and take it completely over while the other demon lords are gone (which seems difficult what with the whole infinite layers thing, but that didn't keep Asmodeus from trying to fling it into the Elemental Chaos.
BY THE WAY ISN'T THE ABYSS CURRENTLY IN THE ELEMENTAL CHAOS?
Baphomet- someone here play Neverwinter and can tell us about what happened with him and the maze engine?
Orcus' wand is supposed to be at the bottom of Pandemonium
Yeonghu is doing..what exactly?
Fraz'Urbluu is supposed to be sent right back to the abyss as soon as his gem breaks- which I'd assume just needs one point of magic damage. But they'd be happy just grabbing any commoner and assuming their identity for a hundred years honestly, they forget who they are half the time.
Graz'zt is doing- what exactly? Seriously, anything? I'm working on a super awesome followup story where following the dark heart ritual, Graz'zt flips drow society in Menzoberranzan on it's head to take it from Lloth. I call it Party In The Underdark, an insane setting where gender equality is enforced through the city, everyone parties and explores all their pleasures, and the city invites all the surface races to come down and celebrate the now happy and good dark elves, all the while Graz'zt is doing it all just to piss off Lloth. Something crazy like that is how a demon lord really should roll. |
:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:
https://thisisstorytelling.wordpress.com
T_P_T |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2017 : 04:19:03
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WHOA SOMETHING BIG JUST CAME UP!
Soooo apparently a new book in the current series concluded the story teased in Sword Coast Legends-
Spoiler for Drizzt stuff!
Demogorgon confirmed destroyed by Drizzt through something that possibly relates to CYROG and the ililthid? SOMEONE READ THAT BOOK! There's something about them not returning back to the abyss- is the prince of demons GONE? Did Lloth just become the .... princess of demons? What the hell is going on!!! |
:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:
https://thisisstorytelling.wordpress.com
T_P_T |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2017 : 17:29:27
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Fantastic. Something had to have been left on the cutting room floor with this, I was going to go to the forum above this one to ask a designer, but nobody from the inside cover of OOTA was there when I looked, which is to be expected from this forum's culture.
Kind of thinking about tweeting one of the designers about Dawnbringer- maybe someone's grand masterpiece got rejected and they're dying to tell it. |
:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:
https://thisisstorytelling.wordpress.com
T_P_T |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2017 : 20:32:27
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Okay I have an answer but you probably wont like it as I'm making it up myself (based on canon).
So i'll split the text up into quotes and explain my interpretation before moving onto the story
quote:
In ages past, at the height of Faerun's great empires
of magic,
So there are numerous great empires of magic. This text doesn't specify which one so I will pick one that isn't Netheril.
quote:
the halfelf sorcerer Brysis of Khaem was interred in a floating tomb.
Given that the place is called the lost tomb of Khaem I am not going to make Brysis be born in Khaem because it would be weird to have her tomb as her place of birth (what happened to the other people and how could an entire floating settlement fall into a crevasse and end up in the underdark - it would have to be a massive crevasse that went down for miles).
Also Netheril was noted for not being kind to elves or other races so I'm not going to make her from Netheril.
quote:
The rise of the demon lords has awakened Brysis from the eternal sleep of death as a wraith, served by spectres who were once her loyal retainers.
Apart from the eternal sleep of death part I am going to interpret this as Brysis was already an undead. Mostly because it suits my interpretation and because it doesn't specify that her loyal retainers were ever anything other than spectres.
So here is a date from Grand History of the Realms that I'm using for this backstory
quote:
-306 DR Year of Wan Shades: Elven adventurers from Rystall Wood destroy a greater shadow in the depths of Heroes’ Helm, causing the release of thousands of shadows across Seventon. The Syndicate of Celestial and Righteous Law go to great lengths to destroy all undead in the region, regardless of their intentions.
So we have a bunch of adventurers (elven in nature and most likely not of netherese origin as the netherese were a bit xenophobic). They travel to a hillock known now as Heroe's Helm which is in fact the remains of a fallen enclave. They destroy an ancient shadow (former archwizard) who was served by hundreds (maybe thousands) of shadows.
The shadows run amok and the church of Amaunator spends many years hunting them down.
What if Brysis was one of that group (Netherese were also not fond of sorcerers apparently). What if she was slain and the party did not know she would rise again and was turned into a greater shadow also. Or what if the party could not bear to destroy their former colleague or lacked the power after fighting a former archwizard.
What if Khaem is actually a misspelling of Khaern (which sounds phonetically like cairn). What if the party imprisoned her within the enclave and Brysis got the mythallar partially working again (enough for it to power a tower or chamber) only for it to run out of magic over the Thar region (a dragon named Embrurshaille drained an awful lot of magic and life from the region between -333 DR and -150 DR and turned it into a wasteland). Whereupon it plummeted into a crevasse and disappeared.
Dawnbringer would be Brysis' sword from when she was alive that was interred with her. It could of Cormanthyran origin rather than Netheril (Cormanthyr being another great magic nation of that time which was at its height then).
The sun worshipper link is made erroneously afterwards by historians because the clergy of Amaunator goes to great lengths to eradicate the shadows so historians assume the party were part of that purge.
That's just how I would spin it. |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2017 : 23:45:20
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I appreciate the angle and effort, and like what you did here. My problem is primarily with this:
"The sun worshipper link is made erroneously afterwards"
See, no "historian" ever said anything about dawnbringer. The only information about the sword in all of existence is written by the designers of the book in the weapon's description, which I think is inherently canon. The canon, contextless description of dawnbringer contains the following limited details.
"Lost for ages in the underdark" "Forged by ancient sun worshipers, Dawnbringer is meant to bring light into darkness and to fight creatures of darkness. It is kind and compassionate to those in need, but fierce and destructive to its enemies."
"Long years lost in darkness have made Dawnbringer frightened of both the dark and abandonment. It prefers that its blade always be present and shedding light in areas of darkness, and it strongly resists being parted from its wielder for any length of time"
I am certainly thrilled by spinning it, as I have done with my whole "Yandere girlfriend sword" situation I am having the players deal with right now. (Imagine your assasin saying, quick- all lights out- someone is coming! The paladin sheathes her weapon, and in three seconds the party and their stalkers all hear a high pitched shriek of terror as the sword slips back into its fear and starts insane screaming, giving away their position.) My deal is that dawnbringer has to be of some importance somewhere, aren't all sentient magic items actually the souls of a person sacrificed in the weapon's creation? WHO was dawnbringer? ALso, an Adventures League patch to OOTA claimed that Dawnbringer dealt damage to evil creatures that tried to attune to her. SHE REALLY HATES EVIL and was still entombed clutched by a wraith?
_______
As for Khaem, here's more canon OOTA text.
Under Cocooned Halfling in the Silken Paths: "Fargas Rumblefoot was a member of an adventuring band looking for a long-lost tomb when they were attacked by a pack of mad gnolls. Fargas escaped, got lost in the Silken Paths, and was attached by the spiders. If rescued, he promises to show the characters the way to the tomb in exchange for a share of its treasures"
"the half-elf sorceror Brysis of Khaem was interred in a floating tomb"
"After the fall of the empire of Netheril and its flying cities, Brysis' tomb plummeted into a crevasse and wound up in the underdark."
_That is canon proof of this tomb simply falling into a crevasse, one that need not be much larger than 80 feet (easily hidden in the winderness of Faerun, or covered up over time- no need for some mile wide crack)
_I'm going to take the most canonical approach, though your perspective was entirely needed and helpful, Dazzlerdal. Seriously, thanks for joining me here! Anyway- Brysis -arose- as a Wraith, so they were a half-elf, now they're undead. After centuries, canon, got it.
_She was important enough to have retainers.
_Her spirit is BOUND to her tomb?
Here's a BIG one: "A stone diorama stands to the right of the entrance, depicting the sorcerer Brysis KHAEM as a Netherese NOBLE in her prime, surrounded by attendants, slaves, and other trappings of wealth and power. A vista of fantastic floating cities covers the wall to the left of the entrance."
_Her LAST NAME was Khaem! That was the Netherese FAMILY! Some elf married into the human society and produced a grand noble, one who was not among the saved cities of Netheril. The TOMB OF KHAEM is a tomb of her FAMILY?
"Set into the back of the landing is a Netherese CALENDAR STONE"
Calendar stone? What the heck? This is some Mayan stuff.
"The tomb was crafted during an age of HIGH MAGIC, and it has become suffused with faerzress.
"the tattered remnants of ancient burial garments, and treasure of NETHERESE ORIGIN."
"walking stick is made out of varnished yew with a golden handle shaped like a scorpion"
"inside of the sarcophagus with SOVEREIGN GLUE and can't be moved"
_This family had SOVEREIGN GLUE? That's TWO LEGENDARY MAGIC ITEMS!! Jesus!
"Brysis of Khaem has arisen as a murderous wraith, bound to her tomb until she can steal enough life force to leave it. She arises from within the sarcophagus and attacks when creatures enter this chamber. She gloats about how the characters' deaths will free her from this prison, and how her victims will serve her even in death. On initiative count 1 in the round in which Brysis attacks, the characters hear the telepathic voice that first called to them. "In the sarcophagus! I can help you!"
"A thin gold sheath covering Brysis' sarcophagus can be pried loose and is worth 250 gp. Inside the stone sarcophagus, lying atop Brysis' withered and MUMMIFIED corpse, is a magic sword called Dawnbringer. The stone chest is unlocked and contains the OTHER TREASURES BRYSIS TOOK WITH HER INTO THE AFTERLIFE"
Who in Forgotten Realms history goes full Pharaoh and gets mummified with their belongings?
___________________
https://images.bigcartel.com/product_images/164535733/The_Lost_Tomb_DM_Version_70dpi.jpg?auto=format&fit=max&h=1200&w=1200
Also, this may be the most amazing piece of all of this. There are some glyphs and symbols on the map for the tomb, are they nonsense or actual clues staring us in the face?
___________________
So in recap of where we are at, we have Brysis Khaem, not Brysis of Khaem. We have Netherese crap everywhere, and a half elf netheril noble somehow. We have the use of Sovereign Glue and a legendary golden sword hilt. We have MUMMIFIED corpses with their belongings, like ancient egyptian stuff. We have a calendar stone from Netheril. We have a lowly halfling adventurer who was ACTIVELY seeking the lost tomb, so it's known about somewhere. We have untranslated runes on the map. We have a woman BOUND to her tomb? How? Specifally the tomb was CREATED during a time of high magic. And lastly, confirmed it fell in a crevasse and slipped into the underdark over centuries, and confirmed the DEMON LORDS have stirred her somehow.
So, I think my whole "Key to the nether scrolls" idea is only viable if the sword was already ancient by the time she had it- and the sword may have had no importance to her- she likely took it because it's pretty and valuable. Brysis will likely tell us absolutely nothing of the sword, which means as important as this legendary noble netherese oddity was, Dawnbringer- the sword we know nothing about, is something even she would see as supremely valuable. So- I don't know. The heck is this sword, and how has there never once ever been a sword named DAWNBRINGER in all of DND?
Thanks for reading, everyone- let's keep going! Who can decode these runes- pretty gibberish or actual clue?
[PS: I'm tempted to start tweeting people at DND but feel like that'd be embarrassing and unfulfilling, prolly nothing but "You decide!" which would infuriate me... Twitter is too much power...]
[BLOODY HELL THE SCRIPT IN DRACONIC JUST SAYS "TOMB" Are you kidding me? The symbol on the left is jibberish, there's a Z a 7 and A's on the passageways- it's nonsense. I'm looking into nonsense. There's even a tolkien U/V on Brysis' false tomb. Damnit blando. Unless "TOMB" in freaking LOROSS means something special, but who the bloody hell speaks Loross anymore. |
:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:
https://thisisstorytelling.wordpress.com
T_P_T |
Edited by - PattPlays on 03 Jun 2017 00:02:45 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2017 : 00:50:59
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I really need to read Out of the Abyss apparently to see what kind of fudgery was done. Honestly, I bought it and its sat beside my be for about a year now. I actually kind of started the giant module though.
On the first question of Netherese enclaves being all over, I honestly wouldn't be surprised to find enclaves as far away as Shou Lung, the moon (and actually I'm making such), even way across the sea with Anchorome. The Netherese had spelljamming technology at one point. That to me says "they flew up so far in the sky that they could watch the world spin beneath them and see all the continents". I've often wondered where all Netherese archmages may have taken their enclaves, because honestly sitting around Netheril itself doesn't exactly fit their personalities. Why make a big floating, movable mountain and then sit in one spot? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2017 : 00:53:41
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| Great comment. I think the idea of dropping netherese stuff all over the place is actually pretty lukewarm now, I thought it was some legendary exclusive part of the past, but now I'm glad to just have stumbled upon it. Still... just... legendary sentient sword...sitting in the dark... If I am to be completely in charge of where it came from, I need to pick a time period when it was made... I'm still astonished that I'm one of the few people to have apparently ever asked these questions online. |
:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2017 : 01:59:11
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I played through Out of the Abyss as a player, and found Dawnbringer. I've since had a peek at the adventure.
To clear something up, the blade is not found in a floating enclave. It's found in the tomb of Brysis of Khaem. The half-elf sorcerer was interred in a floating tomb, which fell into a crevasse at the time of Karsus's Folly. It only consists of a few rooms. What exactly Khaem is isn't clear, but I find it likely that it is an entirely separate place, and maybe not even a flying enclave. It's just where Brysis was from, and likely where the "Lost Tomb of Khaem" was created. My guess is that the tomb was created by Brysis, in Khaem, before her death.
Dawnbringer itself was "forged by ancient sun worshipers", and was meant to "bring light into darkness and to fight creatures of darkness". I would guess that it is was likely forged by followers of Amaunator, maybe from Trinity or Unity in ancient Netheril. Somehow, the sword came into the posession of Brysis. The tomb itself gives no indication of Brysis's religious affiliations, but there is a shrine that has unfortunately been defiled by some monster of the Underdark. I would theorise that the defiled shrine was once to Amaunator, and Brysis was once an important figure to the clergy of the sun god, perhaps gifted Dawnbringer for some significant action she took in her life.
That Brysis was a female half-elf (presumably half-Eaerlanni) Netherese noble sorcerer is also of interest. It's quite the mix - I imagine she might have been quite the talking point at Netherese dinner parties. The fact that her tomb fell into a crevasse over the North instead of over Netheril is also of interest - perhaps prior to her death she had indicated a wish to be closer to the land of her elven parent, and so had set her tomb to head west. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2017 : 05:49:06
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But her name is Brysis Khaem, Khaem is her last name. Possibly even her elven name, if Khaem was not the preestablished Netherese house she was a noble of. However, Kanzen, I love everything after that, the rest of your post is exactly what I'm looking for in this analysis. Anaunator is a key here, and likely points us away entirely away from any Ars Factum shenanigans, though all the gold themeing really got me excited. Gold artifact, scrolls on how to build artifacts, golden bushes, golden scrolls, gold elves, it all seemed so peculiar...
Still, who'se soul is inside Dawnbringer- that is a pattern with all artifacts right? A chosen, possibly? Damn now I have to look up what happened to Anaunator- is that the whole split between lawful neutral and neutral good thing that birthed Lathander?
And who is our resident sentient weapons expert- how are the memories on sentient weapons? How are their sanities? I'm having Dawnbringer's descent into madness parallel her slowly remembering her past, and coping with having spent
ce
nt
ur
ie
s
in a box in darkness, alone, SENTIENT, AND UNABLE TO SLEEP. JESUS! Abandonment issues? I'm surprised she didn't turn evil and let Brysis wield her! Are sentient items limited in their ability to act like people? Can they not experience attatchment, long term memory, or alignment changes? This is all so useful to learn, I'm loving this!
PS: Creepy alien obelisk under Gracklestugh, earth node or simply a Lovecraft reference?
PSS: Uhg and this question... there's this big sub-plot about the Derro getting surface world currency but- I don't see where the book ever explains it.. there's one "mysterioussly appearing coin" but then nothing. How are the characters to complete that quest... |
:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:
https://thisisstorytelling.wordpress.com
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Edited by - PattPlays on 03 Jun 2017 06:19:43 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2017 : 15:14:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
You might wish to peruse this old scroll
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14212
Yeah just... everything in OOTA lines up with this Mummy module that they discuss, and in those the loot was well- a freaking nether scroll. In ours- still a powerful netherese noble, still mummies, everything lines up- but we get a necklace of fireballs, philter of love, gold, scorpions, and dawnbringer. What allows Dawnbringer to qualify as a legendary weapon? It's just a Sun Blade with a sentience! In my world I'm having it age and grow and change, just like any great magic weapon should. (See Drizz't's weapons) If a single nether scroll is able to genderswap you or gain you a level, then what is so special about Dawnbringer that makes it legendary? It's not even a +3 weapon...
I think other than the possibility of the golden hilt of dawnbringer being the key to the gold scrolls of Ars Factum, the only legendary quality about Dawnbringer would be its age or its sentience. This sword is OLD. OLDER than Netheril quite likely, which is OOOOOOOOOOLD! When Brysis took it to her rest, the thing was probably strong enough to slay a god, but has retreated into the most basic form over time, and lived and died a multitude of lifetimes in sheer darkness.
The most legendary thing about this sword to me personally is how it even has sentience after centuries in the dark, are sentient magic items special in that they do not go insane? What creature could have a soul brave enough to withstand over a thousand years of darkness? WHO is dawnbringer? A Deva? A chosen? A primordial?
Loving this everyone, keep it up!
Members of the church of Amaunator were powerful political figures at the height of Netheril's rule. Amaunator's clergy were extremely hierarchical and rulebound. Each Righteous Potentate (high priest of a temple, called a "Court") oversaw all aspects of church functions. No one could perform or be relieved of their duties without the consent of the Righteous Potentate or one of his seven Monastic Abbots. Under each of the seven Monastic Abbots, there were an additional seven High Jurists (priests) who served relentlessly, performing whatever duties were assigned to them. Lower ranks of clergy members served beneath the High Jurists, and were known as (in descending order): Jurists, High Magistrates, Magistrates, Defenders of the Law, Lions of Order, Radiant Servants, and Clerks. Within Amaunator's church, there was an elite sect of clerics and holy warriors called Sunmasters, who later represented a branch of the church of Lathander known as the Brotherhood of the Glorious Sun.
Okay, from my Anaunator research, I think that Dawnbringer probably is not as old as the Nether Scrolls, and was just made by high ranking worshipers and that's kind of it. Still, someone's soul is inside this weapon..
Blackrazer was able to have 'friends' in other magic weapons... does Dawnbringer have friends? Was she kept away from others? Does she remember the church of Anaunator? Will she be really confused when she sees the church of lathander?
A player in my game, a previously tiefling now aasimar paladin of Lathander is wielding the sword, and spent a few months on the surface "returning" her to "her" church, but I don't think she would really understand it all if she's used to the Netherese ways. Imagine: "Great legendary dawn bringing sword! Welcome to our church of the sun." 'Why is it so low to the ground?' "What?" 'Yeah and what is this, all your priests look poor as shit, who'se the noble around here.' "We're a poor monastery..." 'Then let's go get y'all some cash, jeesh, Anaunator would be embarassed by all of this.' "We worship Lathander..." 'Nah, I recognize Anaunator when I see him. You need to change your name or risk becoming heretics.' "Paladin...take that sword out of my temple..." 'Sorry, she doesn't always act like this- I swear she's usually friendly, I don't know what got into her-' 'IS THAT A DARK CORNER I SEE? YOU DEGENERATES NEED TO KEEP THIS ENTIRE TEMPLE LIT OHMYGODNODARKNESSEWBURNTITALLTOTHEGROUND'
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:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:
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Edited by - PattPlays on 03 Jun 2017 16:00:22 |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2017 : 16:53:25
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I found a really obscure reference to the term Dawnbringer.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Lathander
So clerics of Lathander were CALLED Dawnbringers, maybe the term comes from this sword?
Also, what the hell is the situation of Lathander and Anaunator after HOTDQ? Confirmed the same or do the churches still see that belief as heresy?
I think this paladin might become a Sunmaster... I think Dawnbringer might be changing her alignment to Lawful Neutral...
What is the state of the church of lathander in 5E? Lathander doesn't even have a stat block for 4E or 5E, even though he is in the PHB... It was sadi that in the spellplague everyone realized that Lathander and Anaunator were the same, but what does that mean for the church? Did the Brotherhood of the glorious sun do anything in the past 10 years? Or- it would be a hundred wouldn't it... What HAPPENED in Faerun over the past hundred years? 5E just skipped a century! |
:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:
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Edited by - PattPlays on 03 Jun 2017 23:51:06 |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2017 : 03:31:39
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She's referred to "Brysis of Khaem" at least 3 times, including when she talks about herself - and "Brysis Khaem" only once. I think the latter entry may be a grammatical mistake. Alternatively, maybe her surname and the place are the same - I guess she was a noble after all. So she's Brysis Khaem, from Khaem, and she refers to herself as Brysis of Khaem - not unthinkable for a noble from an ancient culture.
As far as Lathander/Amaunator, there's quite a lengthy thread in these halls discussing that - might want to give it a look. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2017 : 07:41:45
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Artifacts are often powerful, sometimes more powerful than the combined magical potency of entire armies and nations and species.
But they don't need to be greatly powerful. Some artifacts are surprisingly unspectacular, easily outclassed by "ordinary" magic items.
Each artifact is unique. Most are intelligent, but no matter how mediocre their thinking might be they often possess experience or knowledge unknown to any other intelligent being.
All artifacts have a history. Usually a history which intimately involves other beings (or artifacts) of tremendous power and importance.
No matter how "worthless" or "unimpressive" Dawnbringer may be in the judgement of a DM/author or his players, Dawnbringer is still a sacred relic of special interest to Amaunator/Lathander and his clergy. Dawnbringer may have a critical function in preserving light or defeating darkness - imbued by its unique history - which cannot be matched by any other (apparently superior) weapon. |
[/Ayrik] |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2017 : 14:25:43
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
She's referred to "Brysis of Khaem" at least 3 times, including when she talks about herself - and "Brysis Khaem" only once. I think the latter entry may be a grammatical mistake. Alternatively, maybe her surname and the place are the same - I guess she was a noble after all. So she's Brysis Khaem, from Khaem, and she refers to herself as Brysis of Khaem - not unthinkable for a noble from an ancient culture.
As far as Lathander/Amaunator, there's quite a lengthy thread in these halls discussing that - might want to give it a look.
Still wading through a bunch of threads that your post led me to.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Artifacts are often powerful, sometimes more powerful than the combined magical potency of entire armies and nations and species.
But they don't need to be greatly powerful. Some artifacts are surprisingly unspectacular, easily outclassed by "ordinary" magic items.
Each artifact is unique. Most are intelligent, but no matter how mediocre their thinking might be they often possess experience or knowledge unknown to any other intelligent being.
All artifacts have a history. Usually a history which intimately involves other beings (or artifacts) of tremendous power and importance.
No matter how "worthless" or "unimpressive" Dawnbringer may be in the judgement of a DM/author or his players, Dawnbringer is still a sacred relic of special interest to Amaunator/Lathander and his clergy. Dawnbringer may have a critical function in preserving light or defeating darkness - imbued by its unique history - which cannot be matched by any other (apparently superior) weapon.
I think this is finally the approach I was waiting for, thank you. However, now my theorycrafting is supposing a time when light does snuff out darkness... tge war of light and darkness still happening between the twin goddesses... |
:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:
https://thisisstorytelling.wordpress.com
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2017 : 15:30:21
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| I'll throw out one idea... the followers of Mystra are known for manufacturing "ancient and powerful" weapons and putting them in "undiscovered and ancient tombs". It would be a kind of interesting idea if this ancient sword is in fact of new manufacture (maybe in the years prior to the spellplague). Maybe it was even created in cooperation with priests of Lathander upon the command of their god. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Greenman
Acolyte
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2017 : 21:37:53
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Wow, finally! I am a long time lurker, first time poster. I am currently running OotA and, similar to a handful of others, was very disappointed with the lack of lore surrounding Dawn Bringer. It is such an awesome weapon, and hints at some much major lore of the realms that I couldn't but help piece together something for it. Using my knowledge from the novels and general history, I did a homebrew background abstract of how Dawnbringer came into existence and its fate. I then came across this thread, searching for additional material, but after skimming this discussion, I feel fairly pleased with what I came up with. I'm sure PattPlays is long past needing this, but maybe another scholar will come looking and be able to use/tweak my story.
Sidenote: I homebrew changed the weapon type of Dawnbringer as it is likely going to a PAM Paladin of Lathander, and I didn't want the poor PC to be gimped for feat choice. Naturally changing it to a PA takes away the finesse property, but I don't believe it to really harm anything.
Feel free to use, critique, or comment.
During the height of great empire of the Netheril, human mages gained untold knowledge of the weave and magic of the realm. They used this power to create floating cities over the lands of Faerun. The greatest of these mages was a mage known as Iouluam, born in -3315 DR. Ioulaum was a beloved champion of his people and the inventor of the mythallar. The mythallar, sentient crystals that were directly tied to the weave, could help create magical items, and powered the floating cities of the Netherese.
Beginning in -669 DR, the year of the Shattered Web, a subsurface race of creatures, the Phaerimm, tormented by the draining of the weave at the hands of the Netherese, began using shadow dwoemers to drain the magic and life force of the Netheril. This came to be known as the beginning of the Shadow Age. During this time, a promising young apprentice of the archwizard Iouluam arose. Brysis Khaem was the noble half-elven daughter of Malaeth Khaem, a skilled magic user and a worshipper of Amaunator, the deity of law, order, and the sun. As part of one of her many tests under the tutelage of Iouluam, she set to work on the creation of her first sentient magic item. Using the power of her floating city’s mythallar, she imbued a glaive with sentience and the divine essence of her deity Amaunator in a ritual casting that took seven days. On the seventh day, the weapon spoke to Brysis, and thus, Dawn Bringer was born. Brysis carried the weapon with her as her companion, and fought against the Phaerimm, using its powerful sunlight magic to drive back the creatures of shadow.
In -339 DR, Iouluam, perhaps knowing what was to come, fled Netheril and vanished. This caused a great panic within the Empire. Feeling betrayed and abandoned by her beloved mentor, Brysis, in turn, abandoned her first creation, Dawn Bringer. Brysis, filled with anger, stored the sentient weapon away to never again see the light of day. Having lost all hope of ever seeing her mentor in this life, Brysis succumbed to her wounds in a battle against the encroaching Phaerimm. Brysis’s father had an elaborate mausoleum built and buried in her own floating tomb. Proud of his daughter’s works, he saw that Dawn Bringer was interred with her; where it would remain, alone, and in darkness for eternity with his beloved daughter.
Shortly after, in the same year, another mage of great power, the arch wizard Karsus, began casting the greatest spell ever devised by the Netherese. Named the Avatar of Karsus, the spell was meant to steal the power and divinity of the goddess of the weave, Mystral, and ascend Karsus to godhood. The spell would instead come to be known as Karsus’s Folly. When Karsus attempted to steal the goddess’s divinity, she cut herself away from the weave, killing herself, but also causing Karsus to petrify, overwhelmed with the depth and breadth of the goddess of magic. The death of Mystral caused magic to vanish from Faerun. The magic of Faerun lost, the great floating cities, including Brysis Khaem’s tomb, plummeted to the surface of Faerun. Brysis’s tomb, and Dawn Bringer within, fell into a deep crevasse down into the underdark, its location unknown for over millennia. Only recently, with the return of a growing Netheril Empire, led by the returned Netherese turned Shadovar, Telamont Tanthul, have records of the tomb been uncovered, causing treasure hunters, Shadovar, and scholars a like to go hunting for this one of many Netherese artifacts.
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2017 : 21:48:27
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Beautiful work Greenman! I'd love to respond more but I'm in a rush, some OOTA discoveries quick though.
I found a source that said the wand of orcus was destroyed but would come back in a hundred years. I worried that the one that shouldn't even exist in out of the Abyss, but as luck would have it it has been almost exactly one hundred years since that event happened. So orcas having his wand back is actually legit, but no word on why he's not a god yet now that he's gotten it back.
As for the purpose of orcas in this adventure, disregarding the idiocy of that one game that just threw in a Elder brain encounter randomly, I think you want to introduce a lich mindflayer and their cult, that seems to be the best way to use him. Lastly, for anyone up to date with the books, what's all this about Drizzt ending up killing demogorgons and now loth is the prince of demons? What? What about grazz'y, shouldn't he be on top during all of this? What's he even doing just wondering around the library?
Lastly Greenman, check the dndbeyond post I linked, there is a bit of timeline ****ery with Gracklestugh and its 5 kings in like 2 years.
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:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:
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Greenman
Acolyte
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2017 : 23:13:32
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Thank you Pattplays!
I think I can help with some of your questions. First as to the wibbly-wobbly time stuff. I am guessing the dates are messed up because the events in OotA, by measure of the published novels, take place in 1486-1488 DR, whereas the actual OotA takes place post 1492DR (as Horde of the Dragon Queen is set in 1492). So there is simply some discrepancy between published source materials.
[Pretty big novel spoilers ahead]
As to the Orcus/Underdark/craziness....the shortest answer, but the longest road, is if you read RA Salvatore's Homecoming Series, Erin Evan's Brimstone Angels series, The Herald (and the Elminster books comprising that series), and the last Erevis Cale trilogy (though the first trilogy is well worth the read). That will fill in MUCH of the background information on what the gods, demons, devils, and chosen are doing. There is a lot going on, but know that basically Gromph was actually tricked through others, by Lloth, into opening the abyss. Why? Because this period of the second sundering is when Ao is rewritting the tablets of fate, which contain the portfolios of the Gods. Thus, all this chosen business are the gods jockying for expanded portfolios, or, in Lloth's case, to diminish her nemesis's portfolios. By the demon lords being called to the prime material plane, way down in the underdark, Lloth is free to work unhindered from within the abyss. Crazily enough, Drizzt being a chosen of Lloth (whether he likes it or not), being the one that kills Demogorgon and banishes him back to the abyss, and presumably weakening him greatly, pleases Lloth greatly, thus, Drizzt is granted one hell of an amazing boon in Salvatore's last book. Though I do not believe this makes Lloth the Prince..ss? of Demons...it just allows her to either expand her layer, gives her an easier time of striving toward godhood, or at the very least, gives her a major upperhand against other Demon lords.
Most, if not all of that, is covered in Homecoming series.
The stuff about Grazz't being in the Underdark is covered in Erin Evan's Brimstone Angel series.
Bottom line: all of this is effectively happening because Ao got mad, destroyed the tablets of fate at the end of the time of troubles, causing the Era of Upheaval & Spellplague, had to rewrite them over the next 100 years, giving deities a chance to increase their portfolios, the culmination of which occurs in 1487. Note: Lathander and Amaunator portfolios merged fully, if they ever actually were separate dieties, and so you have the rebirth of Amaunator as Lathander (which is why I was exstatic when my PC chose Lathander as a Paladin w/ Dawnbringer coming up).
As to why Orcus remains a demon lord instead of a divine being, I believe that answer may be found in the 3rd ed. supplement Tome of Magic, pg 48. There it says after Orcus is resurrected after he was killed by The Last Word, his divinity was split (ok, it doesn't say split, but it HEAVILY implies that the divine spark went its seperate way from the being known as resurrected Orcus) from himself into a vestige of his former deific identity Tenebrous. So the reason godhood escapes Orcus, even with his wand, is that the divine spark he requires, according to the tome of magic, remains with the vestige of Tenebrous.
About a year and half ago, I set out to read every. single. FR novel. I can't give an exact number, but I know there are over 300 excluding anthologies, and I am aprox. half way through. It has been enjoyable, but I wish when I had started, I had kept a journal! |
Edited by - Greenman on 11 Oct 2017 23:24:36 |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2017 : 23:51:35
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Tenoubrous! Yeah, I forgot about him! it.. Gotcha, and I had read about the Tablets, but never realized that they were still being rewritten. It's neat to see Ao not as a bearded man fixing everything in an instant, but a big slouch trying to stay awake as they write rules. (Makes the DM parallel more stark).
I want to share with you what I've done for the Lathander Paladin in my party. They were Glory, the tiefling Oath of Ancients paladin, sent to the udark at lvl 5 to find their purpose. Halfway into session 2, their Light-purpose-exmachina-radar guided them to Lightbringer. A few boubts of madness and an underlevelled but succesful romp through Mantol Derith later, and Glory encountered a Faesress surge. A cure wounds turned into a 100 roll on wild magic. What ended up happening was they completely blew up into pieces, and were resurrected by the wild magic into an Aasimar. Halfway through 10 rounds of wild magic, I saw to see this as a reward for their character arc.
The reason I introduce you to glory is to tell you how they are with Dawnbringer. I rolled new abilities for the sword in the dmg, to make it Exalted. Green, in my campaign, Dawnbringer is a total Yandere! She demands to be always activated, jealous of anything else Glory attunes to, and starts literally screaming if they are ever in darkness and glory doesnt have then activated. "Hundreds of years, or more, I don't know, locked in a box, pitch black, hugged by an undead abomination?!? With maddening forces poking and proding around? I'm not going back!! Light- light everything!!!"
In my campaign, that sword has some serious issues. Wouldn't you after all that time? Magic weapons can't sleep, hundreds of years plus recent demonic energy, and sleeping with a wraith? That screws anyone up in my mind!
What do you think? Dawnbringer isnt that annoying really, but they can be if the party offends her. As a sentient weapon should! Just look at wave and whelm.. |
:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:
https://thisisstorytelling.wordpress.com
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2017 : 01:23:09
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Also Netheril was noted for not being kind to elves or other races so I'm not going to make her from Netheril.
Where did you get this?
The folk of Seventon (before the Nether Scrolls) were good pals, allies (against the orcs) and eager pupils of the Eaerlanni.
From the Nether Age, the Elven view turned toward "Netherese are our former apprentices who lost caution" and Netherese toward "eh, Elves resent us for leaving them behind".
Generally arrogant, sure, but they (except That One Village Xanth) never were hostile to the elves in general.
quote:
The Cormanthyr elves were initially quite fond of the Netherese, providing aid and assistance during
Netheril’s early years. As Netheril’s magical strength grew, however, the elves gradually backed away,
content to let the humans discover for themselves the powers and perils of magic use. [...]
The Earlanni were the most-battered survivors from the Crown Wars thousands of years ago. While still a major force in Netheril,
their presence was mostly ignored by the other elves, since their civilization never recovered from the wars that reduced their population. [...]
The Illefarni elves [...] viewed the Netherese as barbarians who destroyed everything in their path.
Virtually all of the Illefarni were wild elves, and they developed a distrust for the rapidly expanding Netherese early on.
They were on friendly terms with individual arcanists from Netheril, but they viewed Netheril from the Silver Age forward
as wicked, wasteful, and decadent.
-Netheril, p.16
(and again, all of them were allies vs. goblinoids)
quote:
The city of Delia was elevated high above the Shadowtop trees in 2458 by the sorceress known as Lady Polaris.
Originally known for its druidic and elven origins, the city was quickly assimilated into the fast-paced life typical of other enclaves.
The druids and elves who founded the city and agreed to its elevation soon grew disillusioned and left for more ground-based surroundings.
-Netheril, p.70
Shadowtop Borough [...] this enclave of friendly arcanists was often overlooked by the other enclaves. They traded consistently with the elves and
other outsiders since they were founded in 1592 by the archwizard Trebbe
-Netheril, p.87
The westernmost village in Netheril, this city traded heavily with the elves of Eaerlann and Illefarn. [...] Few Netherese paid much attention to the huge meeting save for
merchants in the enclaves and other cities, but the elves and dwarves met in large numbers within Westwendt Village.
-Netheril, p.91
So while the elves did steer clear of the mythallars, and nobody likes arrogant and aggressive wizards (what a surprise), the more decent Netherese don't seem to have problems dealing with the elves, if they want.
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
_Her LAST NAME was Khaem! That was the Netherese FAMILY! Some elf married into the human society and produced a grand noble, one who was not among the saved cities of Netheril.
Why not? Netherese usually looked down at half-elves, but attitudes differ by enclave, and ultimately what determined status in Netheril was how much magic one can juggle.
For the same reason, "noble" may be a misnomer, but a talented magic-user born in an important family was more or less an equivalent.
Another possibility, and a link between the elves and Amaunator:
quote:
Unity
This community was named after a promise made by humans, elves, and dwarves to unite against the onslaught of goblin and orc raiding parties.
Established in the early 600s, Unity served as a base of operations against the warring goblinkind until the elves’ and dwarves’ civilization finally collapsed.
The Shadowed Age (3163-3519): [...] Unity was home to the largest temple to Amaunator. [...]
An attack of extra-planar fiends in 3499 raised havoc within Unity, the fiends trying to take control of the city to have a base from which to launch attacks against the Karsus enclave.
A three-year battle erupted over control of the city [...]
The Fall and Beyond (3520+): With the backlash against Amaunator due to the fall of Netheril, the following of Amaunator quickly diminished. Anauroch slowly moved to engulf Unity,
and the few remaining residents traveled west into the Savage Frontier and south into the survivor states.
-Netheril, p.91
quote:
"inside of the sarcophagus with SOVEREIGN GLUE and can't be moved"
_This family had SOVEREIGN GLUE? That's TWO LEGENDARY MAGIC ITEMS!! Jesus!
I didn't pay much attention... did D&D5 go full Pokemon? 
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A player in my game, a previously tiefling now aasimar
Haha... what? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Fineva
Seeker
Canada
79 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2018 : 07:04:17
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Finished second run at Window of the Past tonight. Deadly Netherese laboratory with a "unique" battery/mythallar/mythallar
Heavy use of amaunator/lathander symbols for protection as well as a book that shows how Lord General Hazirawn was put into a sword.
Height of Empire onward as the Netherese experimented, no intelligent items like it and balk (Hazirawn the greatsword teleported out)
My friend had Dawnbringer, didn't end well, his death ward saved him.
Seems the WoTC are tying things together
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I" am Sathia of Orogoth |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2018 : 19:10:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Fineva
Finished second run at Window of the Past tonight. Deadly Netherese laboratory with a "unique" battery/mythallar/mythallar
Heavy use of amaunator/lathander symbols for protection as well as a book that shows how Lord General Hazirawn was put into a sword.
Height of Empire onward as the Netherese experimented, no intelligent items like it and balk (Hazirawn the greatsword teleported out)
My friend had Dawnbringer, didn't end well, his death ward saved him.
Seems the WoTC are tying things together
Well that seems promising! General Hazirawn was feminine? This is sweet, and you may be the only person in the entire hemisphere to have made that connection. If that's true, I'm happy to have enabled it! :P |
:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:
https://thisisstorytelling.wordpress.com
T_P_T |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2018 : 20:25:54
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As of 5e, Amaunataur and Lathander are separate entities. There was an event known as the Deliverance (covered in the Erevis Calw books) where there was the belief amongst some followers of Lathander that Amaunataur would replace Lathander (or Lath would morph into Amaunataur). This was seen as heresy, then, of course, it happened in 4e, with Amaunataur taking the place of Lath. Now, however, they are separate again and coinciding.
Looks like other scribes have already provided knowledge, though :) |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Fineva
Seeker
Canada
79 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2018 : 04:05:10
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quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
quote:
Originally posted by Fineva
Finished second run at Window of the Past tonight. Deadly Netherese laboratory with a "unique" battery/mythallar/mythallar
Heavy use of amaunator/lathander symbols for protection as well as a book that shows how Lord General Hazirawn was put into a sword.
Height of Empire onward as the Netherese experimented, no intelligent items like it and balk (Hazirawn the greatsword teleported out)
My friend had Dawnbringer, didn't end well, his death ward saved him.
Seems the WoTC are tying things together
Well that seems promising! General Hazirawn was feminine? This is sweet, and you may be the only person in the entire hemisphere to have made that connection. If that's true, I'm happy to have enabled it! :P
Not sure how you got feminine, but in the module he is a man. There is a description of him on one page of a book and the sword on the facing page with various clues if the party can decipher Netherese. |
I" am Sathia of Orogoth |
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Solving the puzzle of Dawnbringer & the Netheril!
