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Originally posted by Fineva

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Originally posted by PattPlays

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Originally posted by Fineva

Finished second run at Window of the Past tonight. Deadly Netherese laboratory with a "unique" battery/mythallar/mythallar

Heavy use of amaunator/lathander symbols for protection as well as a book that shows how Lord General Hazirawn was put into a sword.

Height of Empire onward as the Netherese experimented, no intelligent items like it and balk (Hazirawn the greatsword teleported out)

My friend had Dawnbringer, didn't end well, his death ward saved him.



Seems the WoTC are tying things together

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Well that seems promising! General Hazirawn was feminine? This is sweet, and you may be the only person in the entire hemisphere to have made that connection. If that's true, I'm happy to have enabled it! :P

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Not sure how you got feminine, but in the module he is a man. There is a description of him on one page of a book and the sword on the facing page with various clues if the party can decipher Netherese.

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Originally posted by PattPlays

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Originally posted by Fineva

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Originally posted by PattPlays

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Originally posted by Fineva

Finished second run at Window of the Past tonight. Deadly Netherese laboratory with a "unique" battery/mythallar/mythallar

Heavy use of amaunator/lathander symbols for protection as well as a book that shows how Lord General Hazirawn was put into a sword.

Height of Empire onward as the Netherese experimented, no intelligent items like it and balk (Hazirawn the greatsword teleported out)

My friend had Dawnbringer, didn't end well, his death ward saved him.



Seems the WoTC are tying things together

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Well that seems promising! General Hazirawn was feminine? This is sweet, and you may be the only person in the entire hemisphere to have made that connection. If that's true, I'm happy to have enabled it! :P

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Not sure how you got feminine, but in the module he is a man. There is a description of him on one page of a book and the sword on the facing page with various clues if the party can decipher Netherese.

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Well Dawnbringer is described as sounding feminine, so I was hoping that this General would correspond with Dawnbringer. And unless this guy has a flamboyant falsetto, he must be a different Netherese sword.

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Originally posted by PattPlays

Greetings, I am a DM who is celebrating their one year anniversary of dming by knocking it out of the part with my Out Of The Abyss game- I even acquired some Third Edition books on FR and the underdark, and I am spiraling into madness, researching teases and oversights from this adventure book.

CANDLEKEEPERS I SEEK YOUR COLLECTIVE KNOWLEDGE

I want my legendary artifacts, especially those that talk, to have a real physical origin in the game setting. Where the heck did Dawnbringer come from, who the heck was Brysis of Khaem, and what were they doing with Dawnbringer? Below is a blocked up showing of my process of trying to find meaning in Dawnbringer's short description, and an underlying theory that is utterly as mad as the wonderland that inspired Perkins in the first place.


Prologue: Inconsistencies and Oddities
From my study of this website, barely anyone has discussed OOTA content in depth since release, and the term DAWNBRINGER only had one result- about the book. I also understand that some or many of you dislike Chris Perkins... interesting take on Forgotten Realms. If the answer to my questions is ever "Chris didn't think about it" then dammit we can do better!
My research into OOTA issues started on D&DBeyond, in this thread. https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/dungeon-masters-only/3318-oota-lore-inconsistency-stonespeaker-hgraan-and
There, I review my cross referenced dates and names between my books and wikis. Click the link if you want to hear about how the dev team might have made a one letter typo with the name Stonespeaker Hgraan.


Chapter 1: Casually dropping the Netheril Bomb

Okay, upon first review of the Lost Tomb chapter of OOTA, I was excited to see something grand from Forgotten Realms history, the legendary Netheril. However, of all the well documented floating islands of the Netherese, none were called Khaem and no Brysis was ever mentioned. What the hell is with this tomb, and how did it get dozens of miles from the desert to the east? (The desert which only formed following the fall of the Netheril, which means the tomb may have moved even further.) The floating islands of Netheril were only falling for maybe a few minutes, as some were saved by the newly rising Mystra. How did this tomb get so far west, and who was Brysis?


Chapter 2: Forged by ancient sun worshipers...? That's it?

Dawnbringer is extremely peculiar. "Created by Sun Worshipers" leaves much to be speculated. Does this mean Lathander? What orders of Lathander date back to the time of Karsus' Folly? And just how old is this sword? Is it possible that the sword was ancient even when Brysis obtained it? Is it possible that the "sun worshipers" have something to do with the Sun Elves? Could it be that Brysis took the sword from the magically powerful elves, or that it was created in their image? After-all, there is one thing tying sun elves, the nether, and the creation of magical artifacts, a secret I would gladly take to my tomb. A key.



Chapter 3: The Nether Scrolls, and Ars Factum

Ars Factum, the legendary fifth set of Nether Scrolls, which describes the creation of magical artifacts. This set of scrolls could not be understood without some kind of key, or rather- the powerful wizards of Windsong supposed that they needed some key as their attempts to use the Ars Factum always failed. There were theories that the race of the reader may have had to do with the key. Ars Factum's key was, as I see, never revealed and thought to be a DM-Choice-Goes-Here situation. There is only one place I see where Ars Factum was ever read successfully, and that


Chapter 4: The Gold is the Key

The Sun Elves were also known as the Gold Elves. The last beings known to properly use the fifth scroll were the elves of Myth Drannor, with the use of the GOLDEN GROVE Quess'Ar'Teranthvar. Myth Drannor is populated by Eladrin- who were High Elves. The Sun Elves were considered a breed of High Elves. Gold is everywhere, and Dawnbringer is a gilded sword hilt. The biggest issue of Quess'Ar'Teranthvar is that the elves were able to supposedly understand the fifth, and a kind of sixth chapter by the creation of the golden dragon. This way to rearrange and walk through the whole set is fascinating, but doesn't quite fit with how the Ars Factum specifically was a keyed document.


Chapter 5: Brysis and her Sword

What if, somehow, by some insanity, Dawnbringer is related if not -the- key to the Ars Factum. Something that an ancient Netherese wished not to fall into the hands of anyone. What if Brysis of Khaem had figured this out, and took the sword into their tomb, and sunk it far away? Many people, including myself, wonder why a creature evil enough to rise as a Wraith would be clutching such a holy artifact so close to their chest? Dawnbringer burns evil creatures who wish to wield it, what if Brysis was a good hearted creature turned evil by the underdark or somehow by the aftermath of Gromph's spell? What if Brysis knew that Dawnbringer could be used as a key to the Ars Factum, to restore Netheril's mythallars? Or maybe that Dawnbringer could be used to bring an end to them?
You don't just get to play around with the Netheril and legendary artifacts, Perkins! THERE MUST BE SOMETHING! You can't just introduce major artifacts that enabled magical powers beyond the limits of Mystra's ban into a universe via a level two party in a fifth edition module!!! And more importantly, how the bloody heck does anyone explain it even being within two hundred miles of VELKYNVELVE?! Three hundred miles from the buried realms? I've cross referenced three books infront of me, scoured two forums, and crashed my browser with all these wikis- someone- please explain Dawnbringer! -faints-

Appendix: Times the Nether Scrolls were discussed before here.

http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14174
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14212&SearchTerms=Quess%27Ar%27Teranthvar
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5480&whichpage=2&SearchTerms=Quess%27Ar%27Teranthvar
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17592&whichpage=2&SearchTerms=Quess%27Ar%27Teranthvar
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19062&whichpage=2&SearchTerms=Quess%27Ar%27Teranthvar


This was thrilling to research and write, come on- who has the best Forgotten Realms canon under their understanding? Who can try to put this puzzle together? Or is Brysis' tomb just something to completely ignore? Come on- even the random tower from the Labyrinth chapter canonically might reference the Daern's Instant Fortress that is mentioned in the 3rd edition Underdark book. Dawnbringer has to have some secret meaning- what sun worshippers? Why the Netheril? What was Khaem?
-Patt

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Originally posted by TomCosta

Be wary though, the Netheril box set has a lot of fiddly things and some errors, which is why several folks have said if there was 1 FR product they could throw out or redo, it's that one.

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Originally posted by TomCosta

Be wary though, the Netheril box set has a lot of fiddly things and some errors, which is why several folks have said if there was 1 FR product they could throw out or redo, it's that one.

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Originally posted by cpthero2

Tom,

Now that I think about it: do you know of any novels, or other lore that help to correct the problems of that boxed set?

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by cpthero2

Tom,

Now that I think about it: do you know of any novels, or other lore that help to correct the problems of that boxed set?

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There were some Netheril novels, but really, they compound the problems of the boxed set.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by cpthero2

Tom,

Now that I think about it: do you know of any novels, or other lore that help to correct the problems of that boxed set?

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There were some Netheril novels, but really, they compound the problems of the boxed set.

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Good role-players can aid in playing an enjoyable Netheril campaign as well, but what about those players who want to bring their favorite characters in the modern-day Realms (1370DR) back to the time of Netheril? Those characters already know what happened to the Netherese, and they just might be inclined to try and stop the impending cataclysm (like all good adventurers).

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Originally posted by PattPlays

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by cpthero2

Tom,

Now that I think about it: do you know of any novels, or other lore that help to correct the problems of that boxed set?

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There were some Netheril novels, but really, they compound the problems of the boxed set.

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"Netheril: Empire of Magic. by slade with Jim Butler."

Ah, glorious 2e textbook reading. Seriously, the table of contents in this book are a ton of brilliant inspiration on its own; questions are posed that really do bring fantastic notions to mind. However, dear god this book needs a face-lift. Beyond the obvious issues of having a slug's motivation in the mind-numbing layout (at least the PHB had a successful format despite the Table soup) this book fails to bring the wow factor the setting so easily promises.

I'm just skimming through, but imagine if the Ravnica book that recently came out for 5e just did it's best to introduce and accommodate your adventure into it, focusing primarily on describing meta changes to spellcasting, cultural standings, available equipment, and 30 pages on more options for divine spellcasting. Because... that's this book upon first glance.

It doesn't celebrate itself, it mundanes itself. I understand the notion of wanting to describe your setting from the perspective of those living in it- but a setting guide really shouldn't ignore the demographic of players bound to be involved in the game. It does nothing to really encourage -visiting- the place, just explanations for the lives lived within.

A startlingly short section titled The Campaign straight up introduces itself by saying the following, and in doing so actively tries to discourage the DM from getting too excited.

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Good role-players can aid in playing an enjoyable Netheril campaign as well, but what about those players who want to bring their favorite characters in the modern-day Realms (1370DR) back to the time of Netheril? Those characters already know what happened to the Netherese, and they just might be inclined to try and stop the impending cataclysm (like all good adventurers).

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Jeesh... 2e consistently proves to be at all times both encouraging and discouraging. I seriously think it would not take a lot of effort at ALL (especially if /tg/ got involved) to refit this book with some new polish and write it in a way directed toward players alongside DM's, with the new formats of having the first third of the book be for players' eyes.

Wouldn't it be great to have a book that screams about the most exciting aspect of opportunities in Netheril? The expectation of "all good role-players" should not be reducing this entire setting to a single thunder-stealing dour attitude! It should, instead, sell itself as Netheril would have sold itself to the surrounding lands of Faerun: Bold, Dangerous, Unhinged, a self-complicating society that treats magic as an extension of the body the same way our technological devices today are a part of us, and of course- full of Hubris. Not hubris in a literary sense of "oh I can see where this is going", but instead a hubris so confident and charismatic that it inspires voyeurs.
Netheril should be a Vegeta; at its most entertaining and most easy to enjoy when they are riding high and about to collapse.

I say... run this.

_

Run a game based in a non-specific past time in The Forgotten Realms where the party are from the various outer tribes to the west and east of Netheril, coming together to find a way inside the society for a chance at learning their secrets and getting some excitement in their boring sub-ancient lives. Of course, many players will be aware of the legend of the fall of Netheril, but don't make it look at all like that is going to happen any time soon. Give no hints or call-outs that would make them think it is happening any time soon. Have a full-on raucous Roaring 20's party campaign with threats and celebrations and high level nonsense chasing around a level two or three party, written in a way applicable to both classic and modern D&D.

Then, just when the party is most vulnerable, with their plans all set out for the coming week or month, start the collapse. Imagine a campaign at the ground level where the spread of information is moving at the speed of a bound and gagged sloth. Imagine Majora's Mask- but where the moon arrives five minutes from midnight on the final day.

A campaign setting that is one part high netheril, and one part collapse . Everyone can imagine a "oh no the thing that happened is happening" campaign, sure. But what about a catastrophe so slow to notice and so fast to fall victim to, that there is no "fighting back" and there is no "trying to stop it". The party never even hears about Karsus, and it never even comes up. Imagine in the duration of one single session, maybe two or five or fifteen sessions in, you take the party from riding high to making a plan to survive post-apocalypse.

You have the party coming from the lands of poverty, starvation, and roving monsters in seek of metropolitan excitement. Then, as soon as they can taste that luxury, take it away and leave them roaming fresh ruins in a world that reflects the homes they left from. Within a year, the ruins will be resettled by the various cultures and tribes the party came from, and fighting will pick up as nothing seems to have changed.

Now that is some storytelling right there. Why the hell did this team of writers knee-cap themselves when they had the opportunity to create the next best thing to Vecna Lives ?

-Patt
https://ThisIsStorytelling.wordpress.com


PS: It'd be like the recent Waterdeep modules, but a third of the way through the whole city just becomes TOAST!

In conclusion, this module was made to bring your favorite characters into the world of netheril. What. A. Waste. By creating baseless fanservice the setting failed to do what settings are supposed to. You should have a setting book that is indended to have characters made for and inside it, and not for being pidgeonholed into a STRICTLY TEMPORARY temporal vacation . This deserves a fan re-imagining.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

for OOTA did they ever explain exactly why all of a sudden all these demon lords were appearing in Faerun's underdark (whether it be them or just like an "avatar" of theirs, etc...)? I got about hallway through the module before turning to something else, and I liked some of the ideas, but I don't ever recall there being "and this is why all of a sudden they've all appeared here".

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Originally posted by cpthero2

Learned Scribe PattyPlays,

Which module do you have that you referenced in this post?

Best regards,

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Originally posted by cpthero2

Learned Scribe PattPlays,

Ahhh, that makes sense. I am not a 5e follower of note, so that is why I am not all over that. I may have to dig into that for the lore though. Interesting.

Thank you.

Best regards,

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Originally posted by cpthero2

Learned Scribe PattPlays,

haha...I hear you. I do indeed. Though, be careful...there are devout of Deneir among us who may take such words you utter as blasphemy, and smite us as heretics of the correct "word." ;)

Best regards,

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Originally posted by cpthero2

Learned Scribe PattPlays,

Yeah, I hear you there. It is hard to say why it fails. My best guess is that there are more segments within the Realms enthusiast market than it appears, and for that reason (assuming it is correct), you see products that one would feel would be successful, just to see it blow up, and products that seem that they will be less successful do quite well. Tastes and preferences are an odd thing at times.

I have found that the writing in 5e modules is great for stories. I just use the module material on the few I've purchased, and discard the mechanics since I don't use them.

Best regards,

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Originally posted by cpthero2

Learned Scribe PattPlays,

Ah yes, you mean the World Serpent, Ramenos, and the avian god?

Best regards,

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