| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Apr 2004 : 05:38:07
|
Any one have any idea on why WOTC decided in the Underdark book to change the drow skin tones from them always being ebony or obsidian to having some drow being greyish, or blue-black, or ebony/obsidian? Since when do drow have grey skin after being cursed by Corellon?
Every FR book up to Underdark (as well as the 3/3.5 MM's) lists them as being ebony/obsidian.
|
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
|
|
Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2004 : 08:37:19
|
I hate to break it to you (okay, I don't), but it's not a new thing. There are more wrong drow pictures than right ones. Far more. Mostly I consider it the problem of illustrating an ebony-skinned race effectively. Black on black is hard to draw, after all.
Of course, a lot of times that little benefit of the doubt doesn't work by any shred of belief. Like the original cover for Tangled Webs. The drow on that cover looked like an original-series Star Trek "Orion slave girl." (Note that I avoid any mention that the drow in question might actually be the character described. I refuse to believe that one.  ) |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
 |
|
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2004 : 08:48:55
|
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
I hate to break it to you (okay, I don't), but it's not a new thing. There are more wrong drow pictures than right ones. Far more. Mostly I consider it the problem of illustrating an ebony-skinned race effectively. Black on black is hard to draw, after all.
Of course, a lot of times that little benefit of the doubt doesn't work by any shred of belief. Like the original cover for Tangled Webs. The drow on that cover looked like an original-series Star Trek "Orion slave girl." (Note that I avoid any mention that the drow in question might actually be the character described. I refuse to believe that one. )
I'm not talking about the pictures. I'm talking about the text in Underdark that lists drow skin tones as having grey or blue-black as well as ebony/obsidian skin. Up to that book drow have have always had ebony/obsidian skin. Drow of the Underdark, the FRCS, Races of Faerun, 3/3.5's Monster Manuals, etc. Then all of a sudden Underdark added in grey and blue-black skin tones. Okay great, but why all of a sudden do they have grey or blue-black skin tones? |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2004 : 08:56:23
|
You know, I just caught that the other day, meself... And it is a good question. Drow have always been ebony-skinned, at least in the text...
As for the art... FR art is quite often wildly different from the text. That's part of the reason I disregard the artwork. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2004 : 09:15:15
|
| Okay, then. Here's my answer: I ain't gotta clue. It seems suspiciously odd that they would do that in print . . . . |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2004 : 12:24:41
|
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
Any one have any idea on why WOTC decided in the Underdark book to change the drow skin tones from them always being ebony or obsidian to having some drow being greyish, or blue-black, or ebony/obsidian? Since when do drow have grey skin after being cursed by Corellon?
Every FR book up to Underdark (as well as the 3/3.5 MM's) lists them as being ebony/obsidian.
An individual artist's creative interpretation perhaps...?
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Magic Matt
Seeker
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2004 : 16:33:25
|
I thought it was suppose to be the Half-Drow that has gray (“dusky”) skin, not the full, Drow. As far back as MM1 (4th edition 1979), if I remember right, the Drow had skin that was ebony or polished obsidian.
|
"You had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war."
-Winston Churchill- (to Neville Chamberlain)
The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.
-William Shakespeare, "As You Like It", Act 5 scene 1
He who will not reason is a bigot. He who cannot is a fool. and he who dares not is a slave.
-Sir William Drummond- |
|
|
|
SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2004 : 16:46:21
|
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Of course, a lot of times that little benefit of the doubt doesn't work by any shred of belief. Like the original cover for Tangled Webs. The drow on that cover looked like an original-series Star Trek "Orion slave girl." (Note that I avoid any mention that the drow in question might actually be the character described. I refuse to believe that one. )
LOL! Oh Goddess, you're right about the Orion slave girl resemblance. All that is missing would be for Kirk to be on the cover with her. |
|
|
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2004 : 18:37:28
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
An individual artist's creative interpretation perhaps...?
Again wasn't talking about the pictures, I was talking about the actual text, but Rich answered me even though it is a cheesy answer.
They changed the text about drow having ebony/obsidian because of:
Mr Baker's Answer: "RE: The drow, I suspect that line is in the description to justify all the art we've ever had rendered in which drow were not as black as ink. Sort of a "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" concession to our artists. (In their defense, it is seriously difficult to give someone a truly night-black skin tone in an illustration, and still show any features at all.)"
It's kind of lame that because drow can't be drawn like that, they added two new skin tones.... But that's my opinion. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2004 : 19:34:59
|
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
An individual artist's creative interpretation perhaps...?
Again wasn't talking about the pictures, I was talking about the actual text, but Rich answered me even though it is a cheesy answer.
They changed the text about drow having ebony/obsidian because of:
Mr Baker's Answer: "RE: The drow, I suspect that line is in the description to justify all the art we've ever had rendered in which drow were not as black as ink. Sort of a "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" concession to our artists. (In their defense, it is seriously difficult to give someone a truly night-black skin tone in an illustration, and still show any features at all.)"
It's kind of lame that because drow can't be drawn like that, they added two new skin tones.... But that's my opinion.
That is lame... I guess that means that the next write-up of Drizzt will stat that funky gold thing on his forehead, since most of the artists insist on putting that thing there... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2004 : 21:18:56
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That is lame... I guess that means that the next write-up of Drizzt will stat that funky gold thing on his forehead, since most of the artists insist on putting that thing there...
HAHAHA. Or maybe they can make him look like an old man again. :) But yes it is lame that artists now have a say on what can and can't be put in as flavor text and they can change almost 20+ years worth of drow material because they don't or can't make drow with ebony/obsidian skin. (No offense to any artists that read this!) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
|
|
|
Sourcemaster2
Senior Scribe
USA
361 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2004 : 21:29:22
|
| Could it be that the majority of drow have pure black skin, but a few of the Houses or common families have variations? If so, different skin colors might be a sign of weakness, or tainted blood. Or perhaps it depends on the city, or region of the world. Or maybe the books are just plain contradictory. |
But what have all the passing years/Done, but breed new angers, fears?/Show me now an equal worth/To innocence I earned at birth. |
|
|
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2004 : 22:30:47
|
quote:
Originally posted by Sourcemaster2
Could it be that the majority of drow have pure black skin, but s few of the Houses or common families have variations? If so, different skin colors might be a sign of weakness, or tainted blood. Or perhaps it depends on the city, or region of the world. Or maybe the books are just plain contradictory.
Underdark is just contradictory. Every book from 1e/2e/3e/3.5e, except for Underdark, says Drow have ebony/obsidian skin. Drow of the Underdark, both 3e's and 3.5e's MM, the FRCS, Races of Faerun, the old MM's, Gary's old modules all say ebony/obsidian. Then Underdark came out and the designers decided to add grey and light-blue skin tones, even though there is NO other sourcebook, from any edition, that says drow are any thing but ebony/obsidian skinned.
I guess it's time to add another addition to my house rule file that I keep for these strange and unneeded changes WOTC keeps making to FR for no apparent reason. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 06 Apr 2004 22:32:24 |
|
|
|
Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2004 : 00:35:51
|
You know, as I consider myself to be a Drow Scholar, I'm very suprised I missed this... Can you tell me what page said information is located on?
Ah, sourcemaster, I like the idea of them having tainted blood, maybe a few vacations with local faerie elves, hmm?   |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
|
|
|
Richtin
Acolyte
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2004 : 00:44:32
|
| question. could it be that just after time their skin tone becomes whiter. perhaps the curse is wearing off??? |
"Where in the Nine Hells did you ever get the notion that I would fight fair?" |
|
|
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2004 : 01:01:36
|
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowlord
You know, as I consider myself to be a Drow Scholar, I'm very suprised I missed this... Can you tell me what page said information is located on?
Page 10, "The skin of a drow can be any shade from dark grey to polished obsidian."
The problem with the curse wearing off is that every 3/3.5 book both FR and nonFR lists them as always having obsidian skin, as well as Ed's Drow of the Underdark, as well as Gary's original drow. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
|
|
|
Twilight Herald
Acolyte
Australia
14 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2004 : 18:12:06
|
| kuje31, have you seen my most recent post on this topic on the WOTC boards? I've basically taken some accepted Realmslore, i.e that some drow cities have considerable Half-Drow populations, and inferred that most of the more lightly-coloured drow are found in cities like Menzoberranzan and T'lindhet, and that their colouration is due to some degree of human ancestry ( e.g the human-blooded House mentioned in the WOTSQ series ). This take on things allows for ebony-skinned drow ( those of pure blood ), but also variations ( the many full drow who nonetheless have some half-drow blood ). |
|
|
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2004 : 18:38:51
|
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight Herald
kuje31, have you seen my most recent post on this topic on the WOTC boards? I've basically taken some accepted Realmslore, i.e that some drow cities have considerable Half-Drow populations, and inferred that most of the more lightly-coloured drow are found in cities like Menzoberranzan and T'lindhet, and that their colouration is due to some degree of human ancestry ( e.g the human-blooded House mentioned in the WOTSQ series ). This take on things allows for ebony-skinned drow ( those of pure blood ), but also variations ( the many full drow who nonetheless have some half-drow blood ).
I might have but that doesn't make sense either because when a drow and half-drow mate it always looks like a full drow. Rich basically answered it, "We changed it because the artist's can't draw or paint ebony skinned drow." |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
|
|
|
Twilight Herald
Acolyte
Australia
14 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2004 : 19:33:29
|
Nevertheless, the best solution is always one that seeks a compromise...
Therefore, when a drow and a half-drow mate, it is ALWAYS a drow. However, it may not always LOOK like a classic drow ( i.e have some divergent tones ). This is like having a drow / sun elf turning out either sun or dark in terms of powers, but a happy medium in appearance ( which is less important ). The explanation I've offered allows 90%+ of drow to be ebony black, but allows a little variation for those who wish to accomodate the newest racial information. It still would mean that most drow are classic types. |
|
|
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2004 : 19:45:11
|
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight Herald
Nevertheless, the best solution is always one that seeks a compromise...
Therefore, when a drow and a half-drow mate, it is ALWAYS a drow. However, it may not always LOOK like a classic drow ( i.e have some divergent tones ). This is like having a drow / sun elf turning out either sun or dark in terms of powers, but a happy medium in appearance ( which is less important ). The explanation I've offered allows 90%+ of drow to be ebony black, but allows a little variation for those who wish to accomodate the newest racial information. It still would mean that most drow are classic types.
Except that is how a drow from a half-drow/drow mix look, they always look like a full drow. It's just another pointless retcon that was NOT needed. Sigh. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 14 Apr 2004 19:45:57 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2004 : 20:16:00
|
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight Herald
Nevertheless, the best solution is always one that seeks a compromise...
Therefore, when a drow and a half-drow mate, it is ALWAYS a drow. However, it may not always LOOK like a classic drow ( i.e have some divergent tones ). This is like having a drow / sun elf turning out either sun or dark in terms of powers, but a happy medium in appearance ( which is less important ). The explanation I've offered allows 90%+ of drow to be ebony black, but allows a little variation for those who wish to accomodate the newest racial information. It still would mean that most drow are classic types.
Except that is how a drow from a half-drow/drow mix look, they always look like a full drow. It's just another pointless retcon that was NOT needed. Sigh.
Agreed. Rather than do something radical like require the artists to actually follow the descriptions of that which they're depicting (and that's long been a problem), they decided to chuck out the window years of background material.
That is getting to be a disturbing trend with 3.x... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 15 Apr 2004 00:37:39 |
|
|
|
SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2004 : 06:12:34
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Agreed. Rather than do something radical like require the artists to actually follow the descriptions of that which they're depicting (and that's long been a problem), they decided to chuck out the window years of background material.
That is getting to be a disturbing trend with 3.x...
Yes, it is disturbing trend. Alas, do those with other D20 products that feature drow encounter the same problem with the artists of those products as WOTC when it comes to depicting drow? |
|
|
|
papadash
Acolyte
USA
1 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2004 : 23:58:35
|
| Artist's in our world are a product and are subject to the same prejudices of Faerun. Publishing companies do not think that Drow drawn as they are meant to be (with Ebony skin) will help book sales. In fact it is quite the opposite, they believe no one will want to buy books celebrating the blackness of the Drow. |
When you hear me, I'll be long gone |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2004 : 00:41:47
|
quote:
Originally posted by papadash
Artist's in our world are a product and are subject to the same prejudices of Faerun. Publishing companies do not think that Drow drawn as they are meant to be (with Ebony skin) will help book sales. In fact it is quite the opposite, they believe no one will want to buy books celebrating the blackness of the Drow.
But that's not what they said. They said that artists couldn't get it right, so they decided to change the text to reflect this.
And before now, the drow have always been ebony-skinned. This dates back to TSR's heyday, and TSR was very careful -- to the point of ridiculousness -- to skirt around anything that could be considered negative.
Besides, there's no evidence of any kind of prejudices like that in the Realms.
Further, this isn't other publishers -- this is WotC that's done this. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 23 Apr 2004 03:30:40 |
|
|
|
SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2004 : 06:26:42
|
quote:
Originally posted by papadash
In fact it is quite the opposite, they believe no one will want to buy books celebrating the blackness of the Drow.
I can count at least one popular author who has "evil" elves that have black skin. Considering he's published by HarperCollins in the UK and Avon, a division of Hearst, in the U.S., I think it's apparent the publishers don't hold any validity to the above quote. |
|
|
|
cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2018 : 18:23:53
|
Great Reader Kuje,
I don't know why on Toril they would do that. Darker skinned women are just agonizingly hot IMHO. They should definitely have kept it that way. Those amazingly sexy Drow Priestesses....I'll just stop right there.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Any one have any idea on why WOTC decided in the Underdark book to change the drow skin tones from them always being ebony or obsidian to having some drow being greyish, or blue-black, or ebony/obsidian? Since when do drow have grey skin after being cursed by Corellon?
Every FR book up to Underdark (as well as the 3/3.5 MM's) lists them as being ebony/obsidian.
|
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
Drow Skin Tones
