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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Feb 2004 : 06:17:34
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A slightly scary thought struck me earlier.  After I got myself an icepack for the bruise, I figured I'd have to ask.
Could Shar imbue a chosen worshiper with a Shadow Weave version of spellfire? 
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Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
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Sourcemaster2
Senior Scribe
USA
361 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2004 : 18:03:26
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| Do you mean spellfire, or silver fire? Both make sense, as the shadow weave should be able to produce a spellfire-like magic, as the normal weave can, and Shar should be able to give Her Chosen an ability diriving from the SW to mimic the silver fire of Mystra. |
But what have all the passing years/Done, but breed new angers, fears?/Show me now an equal worth/To innocence I earned at birth. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2004 : 20:37:54
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Well, both, actually. I'd forgotten that there were two versions. I haven't read that section for months, since I was hardly likely to use it. Although, I should . . . I just realized it might hold the answer to something I was working on . . . . Hmm.
::Bookwyrm wanders off among the stacks, lost in thought.:: |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2004 : 21:16:43
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| I believe that its possible, though the appearance would be much different (ex: spellfire silver, shadowfire black/gray?). Anyways, just a thought..... |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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Dracandos the Spellsage
Senior Scribe
466 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2004 : 22:51:15
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| intriguing Bookwyrm, very interesting indeed. a shadow weave version of spellfire...mind if i wander among the vast bookshelves with u in search of an answer or more thought provoking ideas? |
Death strips away the masks men don to hide their true nature - The Slayer's Guide to Undead
The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown from their passage - So Sayeth the Wise Alaundo
Whenever magic one doth weave, 'tis never ever wise to deceive - Elminster
Strength and power come from knowing and controlling what others do not, but never reveal all that you know - Vecna
I have been known to cast a blue mage spell now and again - Dracandos the Spellsage |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2004 : 00:22:17
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| It seems unlikely Shar would do such a thing. While she is mostly likely able too, as has been highlighted int eh past, granted abilities like silverfire involve imbuing a mortal with a small portion of a deity's divine essence, transfering a bit of their power to that mortal. Now, Mystra did this for reasons of her own (some sya to spread magic, others because Ao forced her to), but I see her as more likely to give away power, unlike Shar. Shar is a greedly, evil deity, the king who would not willingly give away a portion of her power to a mortal, it would harm her position. So unless she is forced (much as some contend Mystra was) I doubt she would invest any mortal with such power. Also, one must recognize an individual who she would imbue with such a power would be evil, and thus bearing some likelyhood of betrayed Shar and maiing her regret her choice. So, is it possible, yes. Likely, I don't think so. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmm…pie…"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2004 : 00:40:31
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| I agree with Edain. Unlike Shar, Mystra spreads her magic and magical items throughout Faerun for present and future mages to discover so magic would be around forever. Shar doesn't even have a Chosen, which also shows how she doesn't really trust or reward mortals. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Dracandos the Spellsage
Senior Scribe
466 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2004 : 01:44:23
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
I agree with Edain. Unlike Shar, Mystra spreads her magic and magical items throughout Faerun for present and future mages to discover so magic would be around forever.
n that is y the Goddess of Magic is so great! |
Death strips away the masks men don to hide their true nature - The Slayer's Guide to Undead
The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown from their passage - So Sayeth the Wise Alaundo
Whenever magic one doth weave, 'tis never ever wise to deceive - Elminster
Strength and power come from knowing and controlling what others do not, but never reveal all that you know - Vecna
I have been known to cast a blue mage spell now and again - Dracandos the Spellsage |
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2004 : 02:05:23
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Hmmm, Bookwyrm, I hope you don't mind, but I used our Shadowfire Idea on my Chosen of Vhaeraun template.... |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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ywhtptgtfo
Seeker
89 Posts |
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ywhtptgtfo
Seeker
89 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2004 : 02:49:23
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I believe the main reason would be that Shar's unwilling to make a bold attempt to promote her magic.
Abilities like Silverfire can be taken back by will of the deity, so I don't see how it will endanger Shar's position.
Lastly, not all deities' chosen are known, especially the Goddess of Secret's. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2004 : 02:54:08
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ywhtptgtfo, yes a deity is able to take back abilities like silverfire yet they have to give some of their own powers to their followers to give them abilities at the start. Some selfish and evil gods are unwilling to do that because they don't even trust their own worshipers or they are just power-hungry. Also, are you sure Shar even has a Chosen? I've never heard of it anywhere, not even in the Faiths and Pantheons Manual.
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"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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ywhtptgtfo
Seeker
89 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2004 : 18:08:36
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A deity can take back his or her invested powers, I believe.
WoTC can't possibly announce ALL chosens of ALL gods. The reason why Mystra's chosens are so well-known is that Ed Greenwood loves to talk about them. |
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Dracandos the Spellsage
Senior Scribe
466 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2004 : 22:02:36
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quote:
Originally posted by ywhtptgtfo
A deity can take back his or her invested powers, I believe.
aye, i believe so aswell |
Death strips away the masks men don to hide their true nature - The Slayer's Guide to Undead
The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown from their passage - So Sayeth the Wise Alaundo
Whenever magic one doth weave, 'tis never ever wise to deceive - Elminster
Strength and power come from knowing and controlling what others do not, but never reveal all that you know - Vecna
I have been known to cast a blue mage spell now and again - Dracandos the Spellsage |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2004 : 00:06:10
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ywhtptgtfo, FR manuals are different than the WotC. The manuals have detailed info on whatever they about. The Faiths and Pantheons manual would have all the current info on all the deities in the Faerunian Pantheon, including their Chosens (if they have any).
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"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2004 : 21:59:59
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
ywhtptgtfo, yes a deity is able to take back abilities like silverfire yet they have to give some of their own powers to their followers to give them abilities at the start. Some selfish and evil gods are unwilling to do that because they don't even trust their own worshipers or they are just power-hungry. Also, are you sure Shar even has a Chosen? I've never heard of it anywhere, not even in the Faiths and Pantheons Manual.
Faiths and Pantheons page 173. Though not a true "Chosen", Volumvax has obtained a sliver of Divinity (Divine Rank 0) for his faithful service of Shar. |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2004 : 08:25:49
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Do all the deities of the Realms pantheon have these servants with a DR0?. Are they petitioners, or proxies?.
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"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2004 : 09:20:12
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| No, not likely. And they are neither proxies(which have one divine rank) or petitioners(which have had the petitioner template applied to them). |
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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2004 : 09:24:21
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Oh, then where can I find this 'petitioner' template?.
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"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2004 : 10:17:58
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| Manual of the Planes or Deities and Demigods. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2004 : 02:21:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Kazandra
Do all the deities of the Realms pantheon have these servants with a DR0?. Are they petitioners, or proxies?.
It depends upon the edition of the D&D game in which you play. 2e Planescape went in-depth to detail a number of servants for most deities who resided in the Great Wheel cosmology, and I think if brought forward into 3e rules would probably qualify for a DR of 0. However, these servants only featured prominently in the various PS tomes, and I don't think I ever recall reading about them in another setting's series of tomes.
As for the petitioner/proxied question, well, Arivia pretty much already covered that. Although it wouldn't hurt for you to look through some of my PS deity tomes for a more generalised idea about deities and their relationship to the various campaign worlds...especially since such a feature is regularly used in my FR games.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2004 : 04:17:01
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Actually, as greedy as Shar is, We do believe that she could create and distrubute such things... The only one we think that would be considered worthy of such a grand Gift would be Alorgoth, Bringer of Doom ( Pg 250, subheading in FR:CS). So, yes, Shar more than likely has the ability and perhaps already has granted such a gift. After all, Spellfire isn't given lightly, so we doubt that Shadowfire would be easier... pehaps even harder to obtain... Remember Shar is a jealous and bitter deity ... but not stupid. We would follow her if not for the tiny thing about not being allowed to better one's own lot. |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
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PyrateJenni
Acolyte
20 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2004 : 02:19:27
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Shar may be evil and greedy, but that doesn't mean she's not willing to make sacrifices -- or take actions that may seem to be "not in her personality" -- for her long-term goals.
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"The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense." -- Tom Clancy_ |
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Alrunes Sinethal
Acolyte
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2004 : 09:32:03
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To give my two cents worth on a topic long exhausted.
I agree with Edain Shadowstar about Shar's reluctance to imbue mortals with Silverfire. As for spellfire....Shadow Weave is particularly weak in evocation. Is spellfire evocative or conjurative? I lean towards evocative, because it creates a flame that is part fire/raw magic. If so, this "shadowfire" will be weaker, which worth suck. Unless you guys are thinking of a necromantic version of spellfire -- shadow weave raw magic = oblivion.
(Someone is going to say spellfire breaks down spells into raw magic, which would make spellfire transmutative. But I cannot imagine any physical body storing raw fire and magic within. I believe its more like we store the potential and the actual energy is elsewhere and we evoke it when needed.) |
.........reborned from the ashes
belovéd of the dead............. |
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Sarta
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2004 : 13:23:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Cardinal Deimos
Actually, as greedy as Shar is, We do believe that she could create and distrubute such things... The only one we think that would be considered worthy of such a grand Gift would be Alorgoth, Bringer of Doom ( Pg 250, subheading in FR:CS). So, yes, Shar more than likely has the ability and perhaps already has granted such a gift. After all, Spellfire isn't given lightly, so we doubt that Shadowfire would be easier... pehaps even harder to obtain... Remember Shar is a jealous and bitter deity... but not stupid. We would follow her if not for the tiny thing about not being allowed to better one's own lot.
I agree with the ways you have portrayed Shar. However, it would probably be pretty fitting for her to grant such gifts as non-reusable gifts. Possibly not informing the grantee of the fact that it will run out. Perhaps it must be fueled through sacrifices that become more and more costly. Think of it as a drug, the first few uses seem to be free, but eventually the pursuit of it begins to cost more and more until the pursuit of it completely takes over the life of a wielder of it.
Sarta |
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Sourcemaster2
Senior Scribe
USA
361 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2004 : 18:36:05
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| Shadowlord, where does it say that the Shadow Weave is weak in evocation? I haven't observed shadow mages being hesitant in throwing fireballs and lightning bolts when the need arises. |
But what have all the passing years/Done, but breed new angers, fears?/Show me now an equal worth/To innocence I earned at birth. |
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2004 : 22:20:37
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I never said anything about the Shadow Weave being weak in Evocation. Look more closely at the name of the posters, Sourcemaster.  |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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Sourcemaster2
Senior Scribe
USA
361 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2004 : 23:27:40
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| A thousand pardons, Shadowlord. I was of course referring to the post made by Alrunes Sinethal. |
But what have all the passing years/Done, but breed new angers, fears?/Show me now an equal worth/To innocence I earned at birth. |
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Veszaun Auvryath
Acolyte
28 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2004 : 23:28:16
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Hm, not sure if there have been any updates recently, but the central plot of the Silverfall: Stories of the Seven Sisters novel was Shar trying to gain the secrets of Silverfire from the Chosen -- through Halaster, that is, using him as a tool to bring it all about, as he wanted the secret as well. ( As of Elminster In Hell this has changed for Halaster, of course )
I agree with the other matters of discussion, as well, in that I doubt Shar would be overly willing to give up portions of her power as Mystra does. Though one never knows, at least not until WotC puts it in print 
We too began toying with the idea of Shadowfyre in our campaign a couple years back, but haven't done much of anything with it. Having taken the information from the Silverfall novel into account, we incorporated it as something very erratic and dangerous to the wielder to use, as Shar hadn't been able to perfect it yet.
Anyway, if anyone knows of any recent updates in novels or game products dealing with this subject, please let me know, very interested in it. |
"You scoff at the notion of a drow Bladesinger? My, my. How very foolish of you to believe that the Ilythiiri did not possess the secrets of the Bladesong in ages long past. A select few of us have carried a twisted rendition of the 'Song down through the generations. Now, bearing that in mind, will you wipe that ridiculous look of incredulity from your face, or must the keen edge of my blade do it for you?"
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Israfel666
Acolyte
Italy
37 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2004 : 00:13:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Sourcemaster2
Shadowlord, where does it say that the Shadow Weave is weak in evocation? I haven't observed shadow mages being hesitant in throwing fireballs and lightning bolts when the need arises.
I can answer: Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting or Player's Guide to Faerun, under the Shadow Weave Magic feat description (also see the Insidious, Tenacious, and Pernicious Spell feats). Using the Shadow Weave weakens your Evocation and Transmutation spells, except for the Darkness subschool, while boosting your Enchantment, Illusion and Necromancy ones (I personally think it should also hamper Divination, something to do with Shar being Goddess of Secrets, but let's keep it like that - the feat's already underpowered as it is). I don't know about any novel references to this effect, but then, I haven't read that many FR tales. |
Stat rosa pristina nomine, nomina nuda tenemus. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2004 : 05:05:22
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| Yes, I'm inclined to agree. Not about divination spells -- a goddess of secrets might also encourage her followers to find out other peoples secrets -- but in regards to the underpoweredness of it. I think it should actually give +1 caster level to illusions and darkness spells, at the very least. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Shadowfire?
