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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Apr 2017 : 02:32:53
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More like "he takes creative license", or "he's not adverse to printing rumors and legends and claiming they are facts".
In other words, 1e/2e's "unreliable narrator" style of lore (which you'll note, despite Elminster's testimony to the contrary, is precisely what I am trying to emulate here).
Volo also wasn't above taking 'free stuff' from people and places he then wrote good reviews about.
EDIT:
Because of the wonky scale(s) we had over the years, I keep finding more and more weirdness. Erik Boyd had shifted some stuff around trying to make sense of it all, combining the two different map keys we had. One thing that happened is that the old stables became the barracks (which makes sense - it needed a barracks inside the caste walls). However, I never increased the size of it, mostly because I greatly increased the scale, which should have covered that problem.
But it didn't. At the original scale, that long building could have maybe handled 20 men at best, and thats a TIGHT fit. I actually went ahead and drew beds (to scale! Its kind of nice working at a scale I can actually draw individual pieces of furniture  ). So now, by increasing the size of that old building I've managed to keep the 'look' of the original, and it can now manage a 102 soldiers (although most of the time it would not maintain such numbers).
Part of all this is remembering that Daggerford may be a 'a town', but its a crucial part of the Lord's Alliance, and strategically placed for several reasons, not the least of which being a mid-point between Waterdeep and Baldur's Gate. I plan to do an entire write-up of Daggerford at this point for 5e, using my (more logical) maps, and inserting all the lore from every edition (aside from borrowing from Eric's circa 1357 DR lore, I now have to add-in all the 4e and 5e lore, of which there is quite a bit more than I had realized, and backwards-engineer it to fit what Eric wrote). Thus, either late today or tomorrow I should have a write-up for the new barracks (there WILL be intrigue! It IS The Realms, after all...)  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Apr 2017 18:04:23 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2017 : 19:46:14
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I've totally decided to do a DM's Guild thing with this, but I'm putting it aside for a bit to finish the conversion. I started getting side-tracked again doing individual buildings (just the important ones... although interiors for the entire town is a possibility, eventually), and before I go off the rails completely I have to rein myself in. In the mean time, I plan to have several one-off adventures connected to Daggerford and the Shining Vale (which I note WotC renamed 'the Shining Valley' (but it means the same thing LOL). As part of that, I will be updating some really old Dungeon Magazine adventures for that purpose, including one I plan to set in the ruins of Tavaray (expect a map of that city at some point, set in the swamp). I plan to make that a cliff-side city, and have been looking for art of that. Of course, it isn't on the cliffsides anymore - that entire region collapsed nearly all the way down to sea-level (and there will be lore to go with that - I needed to explain the changes to the maps between editions). Thats what happens when you dig too much into natural limestone caverns (Trogs and other slimeys take up residence in the ruins now). Not sure what group I want to connect the founding of the city too - I may have it be one, with a second joining later (still using the 'inaccurate reporting' style from 1e, to allow DMs to tweak it anyway they want). The Netherese and Jhaamdath are both contenders; the Netherese make more sense, but too much gets connected to them, and Jhaamdath needs some love (plus, I want it be a wee bit 'Greco' in style, so something connected to the the Chondathan people makes sense... I really love me some Togas!) 
So, in the interum, here's what I am picturing for Tavaray in its heyday -
The Prelate's High Estate
How the ruins would have looked now, had the plateau not collapsed. (I put it that way, because clearly no-one is living in those now).
The City Tax Collector's Office Located on the western outskirts of the city, to catch ship traffic as it first enters Tavaray.)
Passing through the city in the days of yore
Northmen Raiders are treated to an unpleasant welcome at the mouth of the River Shining, a millennia ago
The once beautiful streets of Tavaray
The Sea Tower of Ilinyth (to the south of Tavaray, now also just a ruin)
Ignore the waterfalls at the bottom of that last one - that would just be the Sword Coast there. Elves once sailed to Evermeet from Ilinyth in the heyday of the Retreat, but it hasn't been used in hundreds of years.
EDIT:
The Miyeritari city of Gælavaar, now lost beneath the High Moor
Mystra's Dance, as it was during the time of Athalantar (now sunk further into the Sea)
The Gates of Tavaray
The city didn't actually sit on the coast (referencing Erik's notes on it now), so I will just have to say it sat in a natural 'bowl' along the gorge that holds the river (perhaps a section of the plateau that had collapsed at an earlier time? After all, most of Toril is pretty hollow, with the Underdark and all). A bowl they widened as the city grew.
So it makes some sense that the River Delimbiyr actually had a waterfall at one time when it reached the coast, perhaps even during the time of the Crown Wars, and the river cut a gorge into the limestone plateau over the course of thousands of years. By the time humans began settling The North, they would just think "It was always that way" (and from their point of view, it was). Whats interesting is that we have a similar situation just north where the Selpir empties into the Sevenfalls. Perhaps that, too, will 'collapse' given time.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Apr 2017 21:08:11 |
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LordXenophon
Learned Scribe
USA
147 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2017 : 03:13:27
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I see a lot of posts about making drawbridges, to explain how a bridge can cross a navigable river. In our own world, this was done for thousands of years, before drawbridges were invented. The usual method is to make the bridge high. It can cross where the land is high on both sides, such as in a canyon, or it can arch. The road can also be built up on both sides. Bridges with flat and level roads across them are a relatively recent invention.
Another thing to remember is that tall ships are also a relatively recent invention. It doesn't take all that high a bridge to get a raker or a drakkar under it. Clippers and galleons were never meant to sail rivers. |
Disintegration is in the eye of the Beholder. |
Edited by - LordXenophon on 30 Apr 2017 03:16:43 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2017 : 04:50:43
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Yeah, thats what I went with - the drawbridge idea was kinda cool, but it was too involved (for something with no previous lore), so I had gone with the same idea you just said. Here's what I got done -
Daggerford Area Map 1.0
I plan to come back to this, but I want to get the Nentir Vale conversion done, and then get by to the real project - remapping the Eastern Heartlands.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36802 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2017 : 05:00:24
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quote:
Originally posted by LordXenophon
I see a lot of posts about making drawbridges, to explain how a bridge can cross a navigable river. In our own world, this was done for thousands of years, before drawbridges were invented. The usual method is to make the bridge high. It can cross where the land is high on both sides, such as in a canyon, or it can arch. The road can also be built up on both sides. Bridges with flat and level roads across them are a relatively recent invention.
Another thing to remember is that tall ships are also a relatively recent invention. It doesn't take all that high a bridge to get a raker or a drakkar under it. Clippers and galleons were never meant to sail rivers.
The problem is that if there is a ford there, then you don't have that deep of a river -- so a bridge to accommodate boat traffic has to be pretty dang tall... or a drawbridge. |
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LordXenophon
Learned Scribe
USA
147 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2017 : 14:15:19
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If the area is hilly, the ford can be in the low spot between hills, the bridge at the high point across two hills. If you need to, you can build two hills.
20' is all it takes to get an ordinary river barge through.
My own home town has a spot, where we used to have a bridge and a ford in the same spot, on a legally navigable river. The bridge rises another 15' or so, from the high bank of the river. The ford was just a strip of asphalt that you could drive across, when the river was dry. You had to go about 30' down an incline, cross the river and climb back up on the other side. The distance between the bridge and the ford was only a few feet.
That gets a lot easier, if you put a block or two between bridge and ford. The ford could be the mouth of a canyon, with the bridge over the canyon, on the hilly side of town. |
Disintegration is in the eye of the Beholder. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2017 : 18:46:17
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Which is pretty much what I did. The conversation started in the Liam's Hold thread, and ended here. Its pretty-much set in stone now.
Just click on the link above - it shows the bridge between two hills.
I 'solved' the ford by putting it at the halfway point where the town meets the river. It used to be at 'the old road', but since that time the town has the river dredged so that deep-water traffic may access its docks (up to that halfway point - everything to the east of that would just be river-boat traffic). This solves all problems, and doesn't really conflict with existing lore. This newer bridge would have been built right after the start-date of the 3e era, because the old bridge (and even some of the town) got 'washed away' with the coming of the Shades. Before that time, the river wasn't dredged, and only river boats could reach Daggerford (and even then, the ford would have been impassable during the spring-thaw months).
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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LordXenophon
Learned Scribe
USA
147 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2017 : 19:25:31
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| In my own campaign, I've been explaining the ford the other way around. You can get boats through in the warmer months, but in the winter, the water is low. |
Disintegration is in the eye of the Beholder. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2017 : 19:40:02
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Warmer months AND winter are fine. Its only when you get all the run-off from the various mountains dumping into the River Shining that the river swells (I'd say about 10' above normal - thats what i based everything off of for that map), and that's only 'early spring' except in weird circumstances like what happened when the Shades returned - half of Daggerford was underwater!
During the exceptional hot months, and when there's very little rain, even on the 'dredged' end of the town ships need to be careful - that river is very large, and has hundreds of tributaries (most we don't even see on maps), so there is a LOT of fluctuation with high high it gets. Thats why I also created the completely non-canon 'Demonlight', which functions as both a lighthouse, and as a warning light for how deep the river is.
During times of severe drought, ships may even have to anchor near the caravan camping area over by the tannery, and bring their goods ashore via rowboat.
The Daggerford area is a most excellent campaign setting, and hopefully Eric's wonderful Under Illefarn Anew will find its way to everyone, perhaps through the DM's Guild (although he probably doesn't have time to convert it to 5e right now - someone mechanically inclined should team-up with him on that). I'm converting a LOT of video game material over to my Nentir Vale conversion map, and I got the idea from the work I did on this one (like that 'Daggerfort' outpost across the river - I should really throw the map key on at least that part).
I'll also be placing the stuff from the 5e DMG on it as well, when i get to this region again with my main project. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 May 2017 19:46:25 |
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LordXenophon
Learned Scribe
USA
147 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2017 : 14:03:36
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| Funny you should mention Illefarn, the day after my players decided to go there. Do you happen to know the name of the Dwarven ruin under it? |
Disintegration is in the eye of the Beholder. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2017 : 16:06:50
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quote:
Originally posted by LordXenophon
Funny you should mention Illefarn, the day after my players decided to go there. Do you happen to know the name of the Dwarven ruin under it?
Runedardath |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Duneth Despana
Learned Scribe
Belgium
273 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2017 : 21:07:45
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| Fantastic map! Really makes me want to set my next campaign in that area! ... say, I never heard about Kauth before (north of zelbross). Or maybe that's a question for Eric? |
« There is no overriding « epic » in the Realms, but rather a large number of stories, adventures, and encounters going on all the time. [...]. Each creative mind adds to the base, creating, defining, and making their contribution to the rich diversity of the Realms. [...]. But Ed built the stage upon which all the plays are presented. Thanks Ed. » -FR Comic no.1
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2017 : 16:25:48
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Kauth is tiny settlement that is only famous because it was home of one of the greatest cartographer's in realms history. After he died, his entire collection was transported to candlekeep, but many think he had 'secret maps' stashed away somewhere, and adventurers occasionally poke around Kauth looking for them... much to the townsfolk's annoyance.
Erik and I had decided to add that as a homage to the creator of the original 3e Campaign map, who's worked I emulated for years. he had passed away just when I was starting the Daggerford/Under Illefarn Anew project.
I also had a Schendivar... but Erik felt that one was TOO obvious. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Duneth Despana
Learned Scribe
Belgium
273 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2017 : 21:23:40
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| That's great! (you must know this, but there's also a Kauth alley in Daggerford)... say you wouldn't happen to know the realms name of that cartographer? |
« There is no overriding « epic » in the Realms, but rather a large number of stories, adventures, and encounters going on all the time. [...]. Each creative mind adds to the base, creating, defining, and making their contribution to the rich diversity of the Realms. [...]. But Ed built the stage upon which all the plays are presented. Thanks Ed. » -FR Comic no.1
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Edited by - Duneth Despana on 27 Jun 2017 21:25:03 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2017 : 23:57:52
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The name of the RW cartographer was Dennis Kauth, and although he didn't know who I was, I owe him much. I'm not sure if there was ever a FR name given for the cartographer; let me check the entry...
quote:
Crown of Eaerlann, © Erik Boyd
Kauth (Hamlet, 96): Situated midway between Zelbross
and Loudwater along the Delimbiyr Route, this quiet hamlet is
known for its decorative coaches, much favored by nobles in
far-off Waterdeep, built by master wainwrights. Kauth is
named for the master mapmaker who once dwelled here,
whose signature adorns the most famous maps of the North.
So it appears the FR Cartographer had the same name as the RW one, but I would say in FR that was a first name, not a surname (as it is in RW). I might call him 'Kauth the khartêsian' (khartês being an ancient word for 'map').
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Jun 2017 00:03:23 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2017 : 13:14:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I also had a Schendivar... but Erik felt that one was TOO obvious.
From the guy who named a dragon Krashos Morueme.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Duneth Despana
Learned Scribe
Belgium
273 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2017 : 11:51:17
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Thanks!
'Crown of Eaerlann' ... makes one dream. You lucky, you, to have the chance to read through such forbidden lore (well earned I might say given all your work around the Realms).
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
From the guy who named a dragon Krashos Morueme.
-- George Krashos
LOL! |
« There is no overriding « epic » in the Realms, but rather a large number of stories, adventures, and encounters going on all the time. [...]. Each creative mind adds to the base, creating, defining, and making their contribution to the rich diversity of the Realms. [...]. But Ed built the stage upon which all the plays are presented. Thanks Ed. » -FR Comic no.1
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PartyLikeIts1372
Acolyte
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 23:35:55
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Daggeford region in the 3e map style.
Thanks for this awesome piece of work Markustay. I think you said you might put this on DMsGuild. I hope you do so I can give you some dollars and five-star review. This map is my go-to for a new Daggerford Campaign. From my handle, here, you can tell I'm rather partial to the 3e realms, and a big part of that is the clean, uncluttered map style that you replicate so well.
Anywho, THANKS! |
'I dreamt of the end of the world—of a flying mountain crashing down to obliterate a shining city, and wipe away the hope of a golden future. I dreamt of a chasm yawning to inhale an entire realm. The edges of the map burning away, and ink slithering to erase ancient places and replace them with new. "Spellplague." I heard the unknown word whispered in my mind by millions of tortured souls, but I know not what it means.' The seer trembled and wrapped his cloak tight. 'We cannot let this come to pass.' |
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New (old) Daggerford map and lore
