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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Mar 2017 : 19:39:46
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So I'm extremely annoyed right now - my power flashed on and off at my house and I lost the original post, which had a continuation of my thoughts in the Liam's hold thread. Ah, well. In the mean-time, I posted a map because I needed it as a reference of what I was talking about in that thread (I had both threads open and typed-into for the thread cross-over, and lost it all {sigh}. The map made it up on DeviantART before I lost power, so there's that. Enjoy
Daggeford region in the 3e map style.
This is the map I did for Erik Boyd for Under Illefarn Anew, but its been several years, and I see no harm in posting it now. I rougher version made the rounds at Gencon 2012. This one lines up with the High Forest map I did later, but I'm still holding that one back.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 31 Mar 2017 03:17:22
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2017 : 20:03:09
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Continued from the Liam's Hold thread.
I've decided to just scrap the stone drawbridge idea - it was getting too crazy. The new information concerning the sizes and distances of stuff made it unworkable. I'll save all that for something else.
The whole of The North is very hilly. My problem was reconciling the high, hilly terrain with the mostly flat marsh. Looking at Mike Schley's map from SotSC I see he fixed some of the problem by putting high cliffs around the marsh, which is a nice solution. Its not the perfect solution, since it now puts the marsh at a completely different level than the rest of the shining Vale, but I can live with that.
So what we have here is a gorge cutting through a gently upward sloping plateau - so subtle you'd scarce notice how high you were until you got to the gorge and looked down, which should be a good 100'+ drop. This rise, however, slopes more steeply to the east, until you get to the lake-like widening of the River shining. All-in-all, it would have to be about a 30º slope for all this to work out (assume the 'beach' around the docks is a fairly sharp slope - perhaps as much as 45º in places). So if you were traveling down the Tradeway from either direction you wouldn't really notice the slope much, but if you were to go west you'd come to the cliffs and the marsh, and if you went east it would slope down steeply to Daggerford itself (we really should move the town and bridge a bit further apart to alleviate some of this weirdness, but the town IS canonically on seeral different levels, so that works i guess).
If we split the difference, than we can cut the incline to about 15º from the bridge to the gates of the twon, which isn't too bad. Than the remaining 15º can be made up by the riverfront and 'beach' area.
The moat is STILL obnoxious as hell, and although T see Mike Schley tried to fix it, they should have just gotten rid of it - moats don't work around a town that gets way higher on one end.
On the other hand, the castle should now be at about the same altitude as the bridge, which is kind of cool. I feel bad for those kids lugging all that water uphill all day to to the cisterns. Don't ever arm wrestle with folks from Daggerford... or any kind of wrestling, for that matter. Healthy bastards.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Mar 2017 20:09:09 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2017 : 20:06:58
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THIS BRIGDE is 164' in France - its called the Eaux-salées Viaduct. I think we found our bridge (just picture it a bit higher up so masted ships can pass under).
I was going to suggest that a of portion of the gorge walls leaned inward until they nearly touched at the top in just one spot, and thats where they built the bridge, but this RW bridge proves a 150' span for a stone bridge is feasible (the longest one in the world is a whopping 479'!)
EDIT:
Another Good One - although a little too modern-looking for my taste, that would be the view of the Tyndal bridge looking at it from Daggerford, toward the marsh and the coast (so to the right would be Waterdeep, and to the left would be The Way Inn).
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Wow. Now that is a gem. Makes me really want to see the finished article. That map is worthy of any sourcebook ever written about the realms.
You should see the book - it was 260 pages when I last saw it, and he still worked on it for some time after that.
The High Forest is even cooler - much more lore and history - and the map matches up to this one perfectly (which is why I went back and re-did it long after Gencon2012).
As good as that looks, its dated now - I do about a hundred things differently/better at this point (not the least of which is that I finally dropped the '3e terrain style').
But your appreciation is appreciated.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Mar 2017 20:27:47 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2017 : 20:31:05
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Regarding the river width etc. Have you searched Eds threads for details. I noticed quite a few posts about rivers in the early years
Probably because a lot of people wondered how so many of FR's rivers were 'navigable by ship' for most of their course, and yet bridges (and fords!) cross them all over the place.
RW thats not much of problem, but in a medieval-level society, it is a problem.
I had to really study all of FR's rivers - you'll note on my maps I started doing ones with a 'lighter center' that denotes it is navigable by larger vessels. Those are the 'deep rivers'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2017 : 02:24:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
THIS BRIDGE is 164' in France - its called the Eaux-salées Viaduct. I think we found our bridge (just picture it a bit higher up so masted ships can pass under).
Aye that be proper Dardath work. Looks like the hands of Belmar Delvestone and his kin to be sure.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2017 : 02:45:35
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If you did want to go with the high bridge option like in that picture, I suppose you could always say that bridge was destroyed sometime post Spellplague, and the "low stone bridge" of Scourge of the Sword Coast was a new bridge built from the rubble.
The fact that it's low and there's no drawbridge mentioned might simply be because no one uses the Delimbiyr west of Daggerford in the 1480s, due to the lizardfolk and the black dragon mentioned in Ghosts of Dragonspear Castle, so having a bridge that allows boat travel simply wasn't a priority. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 31 Mar 2017 02:46:07 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2017 : 04:04:42
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The drawbridge proved to be too unbelievable at that length. As for the bridge and SotSC, its only a picture, and the word 'low' is kinda arbitrary and subjective.
dragons that have landed on it complain its 'a wee tiny thing', but the Jermlains living in the rocks below it thinks its a monlithic, mega-structure. 
Also, 'low' from where? It would seem very low (ground level) when approach from north or south, and perhaps even west (until you hit those cliffs). You only realize how high up it is when you yourself are to the east, where the ground slopes down until it reaches the hill of Castle Morlin (and then goes right back up, as hilly terrain should). The only true 'low point' (around sea-level) would be the river itself, which lies mostly in a gorge after it passes between the cliffs of the Lizard Marsh. You might not even realize you were on a plateau as you traveled down the Tradeway, so gradual is the incline (truth be told, most of the north is actually at a decent altitude - thats why there are cliffs all along the Sword Coast) that first-timers might be shocked to see how high up they are when peering down the gorge at the River Shining.
maybe instead of working on a wonky (but totally kewl) dwarven drawbridge, i should have been doing a 'height map' of the region. I'll probably do that regardless, because now I am interested in see just how the incline would look moving away from the Bridge toward Daggerford proper.
Another option I only just thought of (because I'm in a sarcastic mood) is that there is a 'kashrinky' spell that kicks-in just west of the bridge, and a reversal of that on the other side, just east of the bridge. The High Mage Kashrinky of Tavaray was quite the 'think outside the box' kind of guy. Thus the bridge can remain small and innocuous... despite crossing a 150' river (damn shame people have to swim out a ways to even get to the ends of the bridge - good thing there's a ford there). 
But at least that won't violate canon. They just have to worry about mean local kids throwing rocks at the tiny boats as they come out the other side (Willy Wonka, eat your heart out).
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
THIS BRIDGE is 164' in France - its called the Eaux-salées Viaduct. I think we found our bridge (just picture it a bit higher up so masted ships can pass under).
Aye that be proper Dardath work. Looks like the hands of Belmar Delvestone and his kin to be sure.
-- George Krashos
Thank You GK; I think the simplest (Occam's razor... or would it be Drizzt's scimitar in the Realms?) solution works best. High bridge between two high points so it doesn't actually look high from the road that approaches it. As you can see by the people in that pic, it might be a little bit of work getting down to the river from there, but entirely possible, thus the 'old ford' could have existed at that spot at one time (although we completely lose the ability to say the marsh extended a bit further at any point, thanks to those cliffs now).Perhaps the lizardmen that attacked Tyndal were actually making there way up the river itself, and surprised him by climbing the escarpment. And if he was just picking-off lizardmen as they crested the top, perhaps he wasn't quite as heroic as we've been lead to believe, eh?
As an aside, the swamp now being in a 'bowl' as it were may violate some other stuff we had going on there (from both the original Under Illefarn and Erik's update), but it also opens new opportunites; perhaps it wasn't always thus - maybe a section of the coast collapsed and that's what destroyed Tavaray and created the marsh there?
Which, thinking in D&D terms, makes you have to wonder what sort of things were going on underneath it, for the whole 'shelf' to just sink like that. Just more fuel for you to throw on your 'History of the North' fire.
Of course, it may have been as simple as that river slowly eroding a massive limestone cavern out beneath there... but thats so mundane, you know? Maybe the folk of Tavaray had running water a'la Rome - fed by the river - and that's what caused the problem in the first place? So many possibilities! |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 31 Mar 2017 23:24:20 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2017 : 22:21:50
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The more I look at the bridge on the Daggerford map (that came with SotS), the more I am inclined to go with "its just an (out-of-scale) illustration, nothing more". The bridge is described as a 'low stone structure' which doesn't resemble that pic. Much more like what I linked to above, but I keep saying, it HAS TO be between two high points for everything to work-out, which means the small inset map on the SotS Daggerford map is inaccurate in regards to elevations. The ford being "Beside the bridge" can be interpreted to mean the "50 feet" to the town proper, especially since it is coming from Volo. Unfortunately, that leads to a new problem - it ISN'T 150'. The map is WAAAAY off.
First off, the map is not quite consistent to itself - when I take the larger 'Daggerford' and paste it back in, and reduce it to the size of the inset Daggerford, the scales don't match. The town has to be reduced to 14.5%, while the scale only gets reduced to 16.2% It sounds like I am splitting hairs, but it matters, and it establishes the fact the the scales are indeed 'off'. The scale in the inset map - where it says 150' - that should be 175', just to match the scale of the main map. This problem gets compounded as we move outward. I have another map that matches the inset map exactly, but I can't seem to find which product it came from (I've already checked all the likely suspects). I am sure its one Erik pointed out to me, so hopefully Krash will know and be along shortly. The problem here is that THAT MAP was a not-to-scale illustration, and he copied it exactly, bad scale and all. The crude artwork of the original - just a line drawing - didn't need to have things drawn to scale... its was "just a picture" to give folks an idea of the layout. But by Mike Schley copying it EXACTLY, we wound up with a bridge that's HUGE.. which is why I say just ignore the drawing. The bridge in that picture is twice as wide as those 'ships' are long! His MUCH BETTER artwork causes the confusion, since it no longer looks like a representational drawing, but rather, an accurate one... which it isn't. He went completely by a badly done illustration from years ago (and I recall there were multiple errors, which Erik tried to fix, including the towers and walls being made of stone in one product, and wood in another). Even the population figures vary wildly from product to product. So we'll just ignore that inset map, and move onto the main one...
Which is also wrong. First of all, if it was even accurate to itself, the last number on the scale should read 200', NOT 150'. Check for yourself. NOW when I go back into the map, with the 150' placed properly on the main scale, we have to reduce it to 21.5%! (and the other numbers don't even line up right... ugh... am I the only one who actually counts PIXELS to make sure the bars on the scale bar are self-consistent?) So now I take the corrected main scale (with 200' where the 150' was) and shrink it down to the 14.5% I used to match the city size on the inset map, the 150' on THAT scale should read 225'! And I STILL ascertain that all of this is more off than that - I am merely trying to get a SINGLE MAP consistent with itself!
The town map I did with Erik (which I may post) - that we corrected together - is way larger because even the original scales had to be off; the town made no sense - the buildings were all TOO SMALL. And that's with even realizing that medieval(ish) buildings were 'tighter' and more cramped. The population figures certainly didn't work out - there weren't enough homes, or room in those homes. Thus, we increased the scale. Taking my re-worked map from 4 years ago and pasting it over Mike Schley's (and both of us traced the original city maps PRECISELY, so they lineup PERFECTLY), the scale Erik and I had worked out is almost twice as big - where 150' is on the newer map (which should be 200', remember), I have about 375' on my map.
So we go BACK IN on last time, take my re-sized scale bar and reduce it by the 14.5% to match the inset map, and I get a hair shy of 700' where that map's scale says only 150'!!! 
NOW we are getting somewhere...
If I now move the bridge to where it should be with the change in scale (but keep the old scale for the elevations), the bridge moves further west and into the hills there... AS IT SHOULD BE. Looking at that inset map, that would place the bridge right at the western edge of it, where that hill is, to the left of the tannery. This means the tannery itself is also further away, on the other side of the road and bridge. All of this makes sense, because the tannery IS supposed to be far from town because of the smells, and 750-800' isn't anything - its a little over twice the size of a football field. Have you ever smelled what your neighbors were barbecuing? Yeah.. you'd smell that tannery all over town if it were that close. So we keep the geography pretty much as-is (with those elevations) and just shift the structures. As I've said several times above - take the (inset) map as an 'artists rendering' and not an actual, precise map. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 31 Mar 2017 23:23:19 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2017 : 01:56:16
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Further proof the cake is a lie... errr.. map... the map is a lie.
So the original small local area map - which is only labeled 'Map 5' (so if anyone know where that came from I'd appreciate the info) - is the same one Mike used to do his inset map on the Daggerford map (which was a great idea, BTW - it wasn't his fault he was going by faulty maps) which came with Scourge of the Sword Coast. It aligns perfectly with his, and thats where the odd scale came from.
On that map I see there are numbers for the elevations - the same elevations Mike Schley illustrated on his inset map, but did not label - and they say 20', and 40'. Not much of a 'hill', really. Thats on both sides of the map, so the one where I wanted to place the bridge, over on the right (west) edge of the map, is also 40'. Not nearly tall enough to do what we need it to do (some ship masts are 100'+ tall).
But low and behold, we have some nifty new cliffs around the Lizard Marsh. That means the 20' and 40' numbers are not 'above sea level', but merely a very loose estimate of about high high above the surrounding local terrain it is - its subjective to the 'flat' parts of the plateau most of The North is on. But there is no number on those cliffs either.. or is there? Looking at the Daggerford Environs map that was part of the 4e DMG (the same background map done by the same artist, just with other 'features' added), they are labeled - those cliffs are 100' high!
How nifty... that means the plateau that Daggerford is sitting on is already abut 100' above sea level. So those other numbers should really be 120' and 140' above sea level... now THOSE are some hills.
Which mean I don't technically even have to put the bridge spanning two hilltops, because even if its on the flat part we have 100' to the river. Just one problem - a short distance away we have Daggerford at the same elevation, and it has a short beach before you get to its docks. The 'beach' would practically be an escarpment itself, with an incline around 80º. 
So, even if the hilltops (40' on that one map) are equal in height to the cliff faces, that would still leave Daggerford pretty high above the river, unless it was sitting in a depression itself (which explains all the flooding from time to time). Rivers don't flow on an angle (well, they do, but its so slight you can't see it, except near falls and rapids). No matter how we slice it, i would have to say the place where the southern walls of Daggerford start have to be no more than 20' above the average waterline, and even thats pushing it (because that means the tidal surge would have to EXCEED that 20' mark!). We also know that bridge a short distance away has to be at least 100' above the river, although if we go back to arching bridge we may be able to fudge another 20' or so. Just looking at some ship data (and REALLY missing my copy of Bireme & Galley), ship mast height was related to draft (naturally, since both have to do with the size of the ship), so obviously the largest sailing vessels could not sail upstream to Daggerford, for both reasons (bridge and river shallowness), so we have to assume all those 'sea-going' vessels we see there in pics (and the video game) are just 'coasters'.
Anyhow, my whole point was that even the 20' and 40' increments of the hills isn't right, because we are already 100' high thanks to those cliffs. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2017 : 02:10:40
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Pasted from other thread...
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
I also had a think about the old ford and if it would be possible for it to still operate with ships passing over it... but I don't think so.
The North's Daggerford map shows large caravel-sized ships docked nearby, which can have drafts of 5 feet or so - deeper than any ford deemed passable as far as I'm aware. I think for this to work (ie. for ocean-going ships to be able to navigate over the old ford), either the river level has to have risen enough for the ford to be impassable by land, or it has to have been dredged.
An alternative would be to say that the old ford is about 2' deep, and some vessels with small drafts can still travel over it if they're careful. Obviously such a thing would remain impassable for wagons, and it would also exclude any larger ships. Alternatively you could make it even lower so a wagon could pass safely over it, but then you're definitely not getting ships through. So, not loving these options.
For my own purposes I'm inclined to say the old ford was dredged to allow ship passage, and go with the drawbridge approach.
In the Realms, there is a type of wagon designed to look like a rowboat, and is water-resistant, and can both float on a river, across it, or work as a normal wagon on roads. There is one guy who makes them specifically in Triboar, but there is another that made a larger version (an actual ship with wheels). Obviously we aren't the first people to recognize the problem with Faerûn's fords.
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
I imagine a bridge would have been built as soon as a goodly number of people wanted to travel by wagon between Waterdeep/Daggerford and the south, and it makes sense that it would have been after Tyndal's little adventure, as otherwise he would have used the bridge! So as to that, I guess we're looking at a date for building the bridge for somewhere after 931 DR, and likely after the beginning of the building of Castle Daggerford in 947 DR. Timing it to the Dragonspear War could still work, but I have a feeling trade would have necessitated building it as early as possible, and I'm betting on it being built by the first Dukes of Daggerford in the mid-late 900s.
The only thing I can find is that the thing with Tyndal happened "400 summers ago" in a 2e source.
I would think - with the number of Kingdoms in that area 1000 years ago (and the trading hub citystate of Tavaray being where the Marsh is) - that someone would have built a bridge earlier, hence my idea about the stone (dwarven) drawbridge. Who knows? Maybe there are the shattered remains of an older bridge that existed before the marsh came about, now buried beneath the mire with the rest. If not Tavaray building it, than the elves of Delimbyran (Fallen Kingdom) - they controlled that whole region and would have needed an easy route to both sides of the river.
EDIT:
Actually, if it was Delimbyran, it may have made more sense to have a bridge over by Illefarn instead. Of course, we have no lore saying there are bridge ruins anywhere around there, so it would be simpler to 'hide' such a thing in the Lizard Marsh, which has never been detailed. Of course, when making up stuff, we can put anything anywhere. LOL
I blame it on an epic level 'Forget' spell that went awry.
EDIT2:
Earlier sources claim its (Tyndal) a 'local legend' accepted as fact, but that gives us some maneuvering room where thats concerned too. For all we know Tyndal may have been a might warrior of Tavaray (whom they named their bridge after), or an elf of Illefarn who was actually quick with a bow.
Crap, just re-read that part. Pesky elves, living so long... one of them remembers the incident. Dang it. Thus there definitely was a Tyndal, and he was the towns first Duke. The only thing we can play with is where he was really from, or what he really was (local farmboy, or something more?) |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Apr 2017 02:33:37 |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2017 : 02:36:54
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N5 is the source of "Map 5" - it's the map I was using against the SotSC map in the other thread.
Most of the stuff I have on Tyndal comes from GHotR. I think George Krashos's north history has a couple more little details that didn't make it into the GHotR.
That's a pity about the maps not scaling well, but I guess it's no huge surprise.
As far as river width goes, even if we ignore the maps I would think it would be no less than 100' across: it's a "mere 160 feet" across at Julkoun, implying that it's much wider elsewhere, so I think the maps' approximation is likely close to the truth in this regard.
I'm not sure it follows from the 100' cliff miles west that the river has to be 100' below ground level at Daggerford. The pictorial map in The North shows the river being just below the town, not far at all. Plus, as you mentioned, we know it floods into the moat. Surely the river just gradually slopes down towards the sea many miles to the west?
The high arched bridge doesn't really suit my own purposes (playing in the 1490s and trying to keep to canon sources, even SotSC). At this stage I still prefer the low stone bridge of SotSC (which I feel aligns with it not hitting hills on the maps), with or without a drawbridge in the middle bit. I'm probably inclined to say it does have a drawbridge, but it's nonfunctional in the 1490s due to the trouble downriver. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 01 Apr 2017 02:38:14 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2017 : 04:03:36
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I also forgot to mention that the Daggerford map from the 4e DMG shows the river a bit differently, widening into lakes at several points. However, since that is from a 'core' source and not an FR one (despite the fact its clearly FR), I haven't taken that into account... yet.
Thanks for the heads-up - I checked that source twice and missed it somehow.
I have another map (I'm going to have to rename these files) that shows that region as well, also from an old source, that I can't identify - Its labeled "Map 2: The Road from Waterdeep to the Way Inn". I checked the two sources I thought it might have been from - Hordes of Dragonspear and FRE3 Waterdeep, and no luck. I did find yet another map (with a different scale) of Daggerford in HoD, so I'll have to check that one against the rest. The reason why I mention this one is because its show Daggerford south of the river. There may have also been another with that mistake. I think maybe thats where the confusion with the video game came from (which also had it on the south side). Since the VG's are not canon, but all printed sources ARE, I now have a valid reason for adding a little 'outpost' of Daggerford on the south side.
EDIT:
A funny thing happened to me on the way to the...
Map project(s). I wanted to do a 'Dagerford area map' like the one from N5, but I wanted it a little bigger to show more of the terrain contours (and also nudge the bridge a bit west). I plan to do a 'side view' too, so you can see the elevations better - in fact, I had started that one first, and then realized I needed to re-do a top-down (standard) map of the local environs to work off of. ANYHOW, I pasted the N5 map I have into a standard 8½ x 11 300 ppi canvas as I always do, and it was a little smaller than I wanted, so I resized it 150% (so I have more room to 'play', but not too much). I then decided to grab my own map of Daggerford, that I made four years ago, and use that for the town, rather than Mike Schleys as I had planned (I figure if I'm going to post this at DeviantART, I shouldn't be using anything of his). When I pasted it in it was sized EXACTLY the size I had just made the N5 map.
I didn't have to do a thing - it was an exact fit (because it was originally done at a lower resolution). A map I've had laying around for four years that I had thought was a waste of time is now getting used for something new, in 5e. Talk about serendipitous. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Apr 2017 04:32:46 |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2017 : 20:06:03
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Wrong 'Map 2' - I was talking about THIS ONE, with Daggerford on the wrong side of the river (which helps support my case for putting an 'extension' of the town across the river, that matches the version in Darkness over Daggerford - why loose anything when we can have both?)
There are farms all over the place, north and south of the town, within five miles or so (thats canon), with several 'thorps' all around (also canon - I plan to use the stuff from the 4e DMG to represent some of those); the thorps have walled compounds for the people to run to safety in case of attack, and the ones that live close to Daggerford itself run for that (once again, all canon).
So it actually makes sense to have another small keep and maybe a few 'support buildings' (those that are shown in DoD) around it on THAT SIDE of the river, because by the time the people circled around to the bridge they could get cut-off (my assumption here is that the 'ford' AT the town is usable as such only at certain times of the year). Attacks normally come in the spring - the beginning of the 'campaign season', and that's when the water level should be highest, and folks could get trapped on that side of the river. So aside from that obviously inaccurate (yet canon) map, and the placement in DoD, we have a perfectly logical reason for me to add this 'outpost'.
FRE3 (Waterdeep) also has a map of the 'western heartlands' (region just south of The North), and thats the other map I was thinking of that shows Daggerford to the south of the River (its a pretty early and bad map). The one I posted a link to above is NOT from that, as I had thought. I'm thinking it must be from an adventure, given the lettered 'locations', and it may have been from Dragon or Dungeon magazines, which makes it tough to find (I extracted ALL the maps from them years ago, but stupidly didn't label them with the source).
EDIT:
I just checked Hordes of Dragonspear as well, and its not from there (unless I missed it for a 3rd time!) Thats a shame, because it really looked like the encounter map for that module. While looking for that on my HD, I came across the 4e Ghosts of Dragonspear AP, which I not only never heard of, I don't even know where I got it. It uses art from every edition, even 1e, so its pretty funky. The sites in that match up to the ones on the Daggerford map from the 4e DMG, so if that is a canon module (or collection of adventures from the RPGA perhaps), then that map IS canon, which is pretty neat (not that that would have stopped me, but I like to have ammo when folks argue with me LOL). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Apr 2017 20:15:33 |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2017 : 07:52:36
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Nope, its definitely from something. I've got maps from all sorts of places that most people don't look, including comics, 'core' sources (they sneak FR stuff into core over every edition but 1e), ones lifted from the the three canon mags (we have to include Polyhedron here), a couple of Newsletters, some ed handed me himself, etc, etc...
I'm guessing its from a Dungeon Magazine adventure, though. The fact that its labeled 'Map 2' tells me there were several, and that doesn't sound like its likely for either of the other two mags (although you never know). Definitely not a Volo's Guide (I've extracted all of those - and pieced them together - as well). It could also be something odd, like the 2e FRA book, or original Player's Guide or some-such. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2017 : 18:29:00
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Hmmmm... thought I had checked that one - thanks!
I am just now blowing-up a tiny piece of the 5e DMG map and I notice the river widens quite a bit downstream from Daggerford (which makes perfect sense, given the marsh there). I also note several islands in the river... I may be able to use some of that. I haven't checked the scale of that map against others yet, but its own scale is 1 hex = 1 mile, so in that one section west of Daggerford the river is as wide as a mile in some places. I was thinking it should be something like this all along, considering its length and what-not (I'm likening it to the Ohio River, which I'm familiar with, which is only about a mile wide at its widest point, near Louisville).
EDIT:
And now looking at his other (5e) map of that region - the Sword Coast one - I am seeing mulitple islands along its length, including several near towns such as Julkoun and Secomber, and THAT MAP is definitely canon for 5e. One might presume that the river has changed over the past 140+ years, after the climate changes wrought by the Shades caused the river to greatly exceed its bank (canon from the RotAW series), and also because of the Spellplague (all that 'terrain swapping'), and a second Sundering (MORE terrain swapping), and the ToT probably did a little something here and there, because we had geographic upheavals with that as well.
EDIT2:
Too bad none of this was thought thoroughly through - 5e was the perfect opportunity to fix these altitude problems with Daggerford, but instead it just ignores them and rolls everything back to 1e/2e geography (where the problems started). With all those changes and catastrophes the original bridge could have been easily washed-out, giving us the perfect opportunity to 'build' a new one... where one should have been all along.
Funny thing is, the road swings way east because of the old ford, but putting a bridge across the gorge closer to the marsh should have been the way to go - with 100' cliff there, most average sized sailing ships could have passed right under (and larger ships with more advance pieced topmasts could have done so by lowering the top one or two sections - some RW ones were built with this functionality).
Lastly, we still have to remember FR is NOT the real world. Elves and dwarves have been building monumental and advanced engineering and architectural edifices for thousands of years - they would have learned to overcome many of the problems already, perhaps in ways humans never thought of. For example, I can see elves building magical 'phases bridges', or even have 'phase masts' on the ships, that are able to pass through other solid object via magic. Picture a wide, arched dwarven bridge with flip-open capstones along its width - the stones hinge upward as the mast passes through, with other 'closing' behind it, like a zipper (so the 'space' isn't there all the way through at any point, so you don't lose structural integrity and have the whole thing collapse). Those are things we weren't capable of, but non-humans may have done things like that. We also have halflings that have become something akin to Greyhawks 'bargfolk' (the Rhennee), poling up and down the rivers and living on them in large housboats, and they could make a living by creating 'temporary bridges' with their boats, or even just shuttling folk back & forth, ferry style. Gnomes might cast complex illusions of bridges, that are hard to disbelieve (I guess the guy casting it could be blindfolded and carried across... maybe). Stuff like that.
And the idea of wheeled, boat-like wagons may have been more widespread in The North, and all those fords could have had ropes to allow folk and wagons (and horses) to be pulled across, even with a swift current (such things were also done RW, at crossings during the spring thaw months).
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Apr 2017 19:01:48 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2017 : 21:55:44
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Still far from complete, but at least you can tell whats going on here now.
Daggerford Area Map 1.0
You can read my notes on that page for a brief explanation of most things. I have to run out now, but I'll be back later if anyone has any questions.
Cheers --- Mark
EDIT:
And the docks/harbor area is completely unfinished - I only did one new dock so far. That stuff you see was taken from my (four year) old map - you can see the coastline has changed (and it now matches the newer maps Mike Schley did for the sword Coast/Daggerford Region). I plan to greatly expand the 'deep water' section, and even have a few docks across the river for the outpost.
EDITs:
And I spelled 'dredged' wrong... {sigh}
Glad its only a WIP |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Apr 2017 22:02:59 |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2017 : 02:55:15
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I buy Mike Schley's maps myself - they're gorgeous. You hang those on the wall. Mine you print-out and use & abuse, and when they're all worn out, you just print out another. They're not meant to be cherished or respected - they're meant to augment someone's RPG/FR experience. When someone tells me they "used the heck out of it" in their game, well, thats what I do this for.
And to that end, 'clean and simple' works best. Of course, that Daggerford is just my old Daggerford re-purposed, except for the walls and I think one Cistern which I already re-did (you'll note they're a bit 'cleaner' than the rest). I plan to go over the entire town again in the new resolution. I also have to do my own ship for that inset map - the perspective looks weird compared to the rest (and of course, I still need to redo the scale - That's just my 'working model' that I grab and move around to get stuff right. I also need to add the heights to the elevation lines - I should have done that before posting the WIP. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2017 : 07:56:01
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Lovely Mark, really lovely. And the bonus is I have the references to the map key!
I have to get you to revisit that Impiltur map one day if ytou have the time and inclination.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2017 : 15:39:07
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Krash, believe me, I will be getting back to that - its one of the first two maps in my new series, which has been put on a back-burner for the past three months.
There are so many interesting locales in the Forgotten Realms, I can't stay in one place!
This is something I never meant to do - I thought I was done with Daggerford. But there are so many interesting things about it, and also a few nagging inconsistencies/logic problems that I was never quite happy with. Another i Just realized was the ruins of Morlin castle - I was wondering why they were placed a ways away from the current castle on that map (when lore says otherwise), and then I recalled the discussion Erik and I had about it - I pointed out the fact that no-one in (RW) history EVER built a castle on the side of a hill - it makes no sense logistically; you always build your fortifications at the TOP, so you can gain the high-ground advantage. Why would someone build a castle below the highest point, where the enemy could take advantage of that factor, and rain arrows down into you keep? So we re-interpreted "at the site of..." to mean 'nearby'. Of course that doesn't really fix the problem with the new keep, but at least the original one made sense (perhaps Tyndal wasn't nearly as bright as he was good with a dagger).
I'm not gonna go nuts with this - I just have some tweaking to do on it, and then I want to put the final polish on the Nentir conversion map, and then its back to the rest of Faerûn (starting with Cormyr and Impiltur, which haven't really been covered by any of the new maps and material).
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
Is the map key up for sharing here by any chance?
I'll see what we can do. The key was created in such a way as to allow as much of the two different sets of canon lore to mesh (YES, we had two different map keys for the town of Daggerford IN CANON, which is one of the things Erik worked the hardest on to correct... then again, he works 'the hardest' on EVRYTHING lol). Thus, the key to that map isn't mine, nor is it canon - its a third, 'amalgam' type of thing, with TONS of thought put into it (because a LOT didn't make any sense ... like a shipyard sitting in the middle of town... with no way to actually get boats in or out...) 
So maybe I can post a list with just the names of the places, and you guys can buy... maybe... Erik's product someday... if he has the time or wherewithal to update it to 5e (as I am doing here). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Apr 2017 21:42:44 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2017 : 18:06:31
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From Volarra's Guide to the Shining Vale*
The pinkish granite for the Tyndal bridge (the 2nd Tyndal Bridge, actually; the original was built AT the ford, but only lasted maybe two decades - it was washed-away during the flooding that occurred when the Shades were melting the High Ice) was purchased and shipped downstream from Secomber (see VGttSC). The new(er) bridge was built at the site of an even more ancient bridge that had been built by the dwarves of Dardath, and the Rocleaver Engineering Co. (Rockcleaver Clan) out of Mirabar was contracted by the Lords of Waterdeep to build a new one, that would once-again allow sea-going trade for Daggerford.
As part of that project, the river was dredged up to about halfway across the shore of Daggerford, and a tiny artificial islet was created using the access material. A tower 50' tall and 10' round was built upon that isle with a warning beacon on the top called The Demon Light, because the builders fashioned it to look like a huge gargoyle that sits atop the tower with its eyes aglow. An enchantment was placed on it that causes the eyes glow bright green when the river is at its deepest, when the waters cover the 20' mark of the floodplain, and turn orange when the the waters are low - too low for most larger vessels to proceed any further upriver. They occasionally glow bright red as well, during exceptionally dry seasons, when the river is abnormally low and even river-craft need to proceed with caution.
Rumors persist that there is an additional enchantment on the Demon Light that would animate it in times of trouble, in order to help protect Daggerford, although this has never happened and there is no actual evidence that this is the case.¹
*Volarra is the granddaughter of the legendary Volo, who, despite her parents best efforts, decided to follow her grandfather's line of work.² With the reappearance of Volo himself in recent years, her books have lost some of their prestige, especially since Volo denies ever having been married and having any children, much to the woman's chagrin (and anger).
Elminster's notes:
¹ A rumor started by the council of Daggerford itself, which makes certain groups think twice about launching attacks against the town. I'm fairly certain there is no truth to it, but since Khelben was involved in the original enchanments, one never knows.
² There is one major difference between the two in their 'style' of writing - Volarra is a level-headed, no-nonsense woman who doesn't fabricate facts to fit her narrative (and sell more books), and is quite modest, unlike her pruning relative.
³ She IS his granddaughter - the scallywag fathered several children back in the day, but with his constant moving about, is not aware of this. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Apr 2017 18:08:19 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2017 : 21:33:23
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From Volarra's Guide to the Shining Vale
Other interesting aspects of the Daggerford waterfront are the tridocks and the fairly new Mikitan Shipyards¹. The Mikitan Co. has the largest covered drydocks on the Sword Coast, which allows them to work in nearly any sort of weather, and the facilities have full access to the river. Unlike most other building in the Waterfront district, the building has a solid stone foundation built by the local dwarves of Clan Ironaxe, and can easily withstand the seasonal flooding. Nearly all other buildings in the waterfront district (outside the walls of the city proper) are built on 'stilts', or rather, dock-like platforms set above the high-water mark, which can vary as much as 20' in particularly wet seasons (and has been known to go even higher a time or two, under extremely rare and dubious circumstances). Fortunately, the river rarely rises to even the 20' mark in recent years.
Which brings us to the Tridocks, the likes of which this traveler has not seen anywhere else. The docks are built on three levels, one at 10' above the low water mark (the normal height for such things, to allow for easy loading of cargo onto an off of ships), another at 20', and third at 30' above the low-water water height. All are treated with special alchemical substances to make them resistant to rot and water damage. This weird setup was only first hit upon a century ago, when the city was badly flooded and many engineers from outside were brought in to help with the problems. In the past, Daggerford had normal docks, which would sit 20' above the median point of the water. This meant that in dry seasons - like the late summer months - ships would actually sit a good ten feet or more below the docks, forcing the use of ladders and switch-back gangplanks just to move to and fro. In very rainy seasons with extreme run-off, the water could go right to dock itself, which was both dangerous for the ships to tie-up against and also made disembarking (and boarding) anything and anyone even more difficult than during dry spells. At the time, the height of the docks were determined to be the best possible compromise, allowing normal routines during at least half the year.
However, after the harbor area (and nearby bridge) were rebuilt in the late 1370's DR, the tridock system was hit-upon and implemented, with ramps going up and down every so often to allow easy access to each level. These days, mostly only the bottom two levels get used, and the town is considering removing the top pier, because it has become the home of piles of trash and vagrants. However, other groups within the town simply want it cleaned-up and repurposed, perhaps as a tourist area, or a place for lovers (and others) to take walks on the Riverfront. I must say, the view - especially of the magnificent bridge downstream - is beautiful from the top section... if one watches where one steps.
¹ Volarra is unaware that there was another Mikitan Shipbuilding facility at Daggerford over a century ago, but this closed down not long after the building of the first Tyndal Bridge, because without the sea traffic, the family just felt there wasn't enough business servicing just the riverboats that came to call on the town. They had relocated to Orlumbor, and had even had another facility built on the Inner sea, but that one was destroyed during the Wailing Years. Only a decade or so ago the family lost its lease on the property on Orlumbor and decided to return to their roots. The family specializes in building vessels with 'hidden compartments', and not really caring who the clients are, which has lead to the Lords Alliance placing at least one agent in their employ to keep watch on things. The family is, of course, aware of this... or, at least, aware of the one agent they are supposed to know about. – Elminster |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Apr 2017 21:49:05 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2475 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2017 : 22:12:03
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| lol, so Volo really fabricate stuff to sell books? And here I was thinking that Elminster was hard with him... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Topic |
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New (old) Daggerford map and lore
