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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

So I was thinking on this a bit further... And I'll prolly use this to re-spin the return of Shade in my own Realms, since -- as I've said in the past -- I thought WotC would use Shade's return to explain the sudden advent of sorcerers and the like. I think it can also be used as a background for the appearance of spellscars.

So, when Karsus was planning his Ultimate Folly spell, he needed to gather and store a hell of a lot of magical energy. So he built this huge ring...

The ring is hundreds of miles in diameter, and it's defined by arrangements of standing stones. From the ground, these stones appear to be randomly scattered about, perhaps even natural formations... But when viewed from above by someone with a very in-depth knowledge of spellcraft, it's obvious that each of these stone formations actually is a rune of some sort.

See, each of these sets of stones is set somewhere where magic is quite strong -- at convergences of ley lines, if you will. The shape of the runes allows the stones to draw on and store the magic of these places, and their placement at precise places in the circle increases and focuses that stored power.

And actually, it doesn't have to be a ring, it could be that all of these stone emplacements would, if marked on a map and connected with lines, form some other mystical pattern, or a gigantic glyph. Either way, the individual stone formations are far enough apart that no one has ever realized there was a connection between them.

So anyway, Karsus used this to up his own power when he cast his Ultimate Folly spell. And it was due in no small part to that magic ring that he had enough power to temporarily seize divinity...

Now it's 16 centuries later, and Shade agents, sent thru in small numbers, have managed to realign all of these stones, and use the power to create a big enough portal to bring Shade back into the light. Of course, with 16 centuries of accumulating magic and the stones having been misaligned for much of that time, the magic got out of hand -- it was the arcane equivalent of dropping a bunch of nukes. There was way too much power, and though the Shades achieved their goal, the power quickly spun out of control.

The entire Weave was distorted by the unleashing of that much magic. Tsunami-like waves raced throughout the Weave, temporarily stunning Mystra and impacting the magic of the Realms like nothing since Netheril's Fall. Races never before able to touch the Weave found its wonders opening before them, and others discovered an innate connection to the Weave wholly different from that of wizards. Storms of wild magic flared and died in an instant, and many found themselves marked by the unchecked power of the distorted and rippling Weave.

It took mere moments for Mystra to reassert her control of the Weave, but in those few breaths, magic in the Realms was irrevocably changed.

Sorry, the writer in me slipped the leash for a minute, there....

But anyway, with this idea (or something similar), you could readily explain the sudden appearance of sorcerers, have an explanation for why races who previously didn't use much (or any) magic suddenly have that capability, and get your spellscars or other limited (as in, not continent-swapping or planes-destroying) effects of the canon Sellplague.

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Originally posted by Markustay

I agree - their floating cities really made no sense, because thats ALL they did (even though the canon says they could move).

There should have been dozens of cities that were well outside Netheril proper when the Weave collapsed.

Now, we've been told that the cities (most, anyway) needed the ground-based settlement for support, because the flying ones didn't really produce and day-to-day supplies, like food. That could explain why some stuck around, but not all. That means ones that could produce their own food (and had crafstman to produce other items) should have been far away, or at least in other parts of Faerūn.

Plus, I just don't see an insanely powerful magical empire being hampered by something as simple as food production. As I said, a few cities where the self-absorbed mages just couldn't be bothered with day-to-day things, but not all - the archmages themselves were all geniuses. Most would have anticipated that oversight. For example, there was one (in canon) that was designed to scoop-up millions of fish.

I think it would be better to come up with some sort of McGuffin for the region that kept them close - some magical power-source they tapped into. It would also help to explain why the Phaerimm were drawn to the region... TWICE. Maybe the mechanic that enabled Mythalar to power psuedo-magical devices was actually the Mythalar amplifying an already-existing magical field? Something the Phaerimm either built or tapped-into themselves? It could explain A LOT.


And to take this new theory one step further, maybe the Netherese didn't build the Thaluud (Tomb-tappers) - maybe they are some sort of protection - like anti-bodies - for whatever is 'trapped' beneath Anauroch.

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Originally posted by Markustay

And I'm surprised no-one jumped on my "there's something EBIL under the Anauroch" theory. I guess people are sick of the whole 'buried elder evil' plot-device in The Realms. Pity... I thought the idea had a lot of traction.

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To Wooly Rupert: when you post sentences like this one: “And though I can't think of any evidence to support it, it's not impossible that part of what Larloch is doing is containing something...” be aware that you are (ahem) VERY perceptive.

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"An ancient book called the Yielding Tide speaks of a forgotten city-state that may have once existed in the High Moors. Supposedly the powerful wizards of this city captured a minor goddess in order to steal her power. While the city and its wizards are long gone, those who know the legend (and they are few in number) believe the unnamed goddess is still buried under the city's ruins. She might grant her rescuers their heart's desire -- or she might slay them in retributive anger."

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Originally posted by Markustay

I agree - their floating cities really made no sense, because thats ALL they did (even though the canon says they could move).

There should have been dozens of cities that were well outside Netheril proper when the Weave collapsed.

Now, we've been told that the cities (most, anyway) needed the ground-based settlement for support, because the flying ones didn't really produce and day-to-day supplies, like food. That could explain why some stuck around, but not all. That means ones that could produce their own food (and had crafstman to produce other items) should have been far away, or at least in other parts of Faerūn.

Plus, I just don't see an insanely powerful magical empire being hampered by something as simple as food production. As I said, a few cities where the self-absorbed mages just couldn't be bothered with day-to-day things, but not all - the archmages themselves were all geniuses. Most would have anticipated that oversight. For example, there was one (in canon) that was designed to scoop-up millions of fish.

I think it would be better to come up with some sort of McGuffin for the region that kept them close - some magical power-source they tapped into. It would also help to explain why the Phaerimm were drawn to the region... TWICE. Maybe the mechanic that enabled Mythalar to power psuedo-magical devices was actually the Mythalar amplifying an already-existing magical field? Something the Phaerimm either built or tapped-into themselves? It could explain A LOT.


And to take this new theory one step further, maybe the Netherese didn't build the Thaluud (Tomb-tappers) - maybe they are some sort of protection - like anti-bodies - for whatever is 'trapped' beneath Anauroch.

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Originally posted by Markustay

Yeah, I've never used the Shades. When I ran 3e, I didn't officially (in my games) say that they didn't exist, or the events of their return didn't happen, I simply ignored them.

And since I hadn't gone anywhere near Cormyr in 3e, I was also able to avoid saying whether Tilverton was a ruin or not. If that had occurred (PCs winding up there), I would have only had it partially destroyed (because why waste a perfectly good reason to have a dungeon right inside the city?). Just have giant hole ('The Scar') off to one side, where all manner of nastiness poured forth on occasion - I try not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

And as long as we are bringing up this old argument/discussion, I don't understand why we even got The Shades, when the Maluagrym were so much cooler and already in-play and came from the same place (and could easily have had all the same plots attached). Then to add insult to injury, we also got the Shadar-kai in 4e, because that nasty shadow-place (*cough* SHAR! *cough*) just seems to be a region where unlimited creepy things live in large numbers... who are all kinda the same. *meh*

If it were me running things back when 3e (FR) was being designed, lore-wise I would have had the Malugrym subvert Thultanthar over the centuries, replacing its leaders with their own people, so you would have a 'threat behind the threat' (Ed-style). And if we really needed the Shadar-Kai at some point, we could just say they are mercenaries from a Domain of Dread that the Shades use (a lost branch of Ilythiir, perhaps?) Thus, instead of endless redundancy, we build upon an in-place foundation and work upward and outward from there, layering all the 'kewl' in as we go along. You can even go back further and say those elves may have been 'corrupted' with shadow-stuff by the Malaugrym, who promised the power and eventually a 'way home'. Thus you have the Malaugrym doing precisely what Ed pictured them doing - pull all sorts of string in the background.

And I'm surprised no-one jumped on my "there's something EBIL under the Anauroch" theory. I guess people are sick of the whole 'buried elder evil' plot-device in The Realms. Pity... I thought the idea had a lot of traction.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

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Originally posted by Markustay

I agree - their floating cities really made no sense, because thats ALL they did (even though the canon says they could move).

There should have been dozens of cities that were well outside Netheril proper when the Weave collapsed.

Now, we've been told that the cities (most, anyway) needed the ground-based settlement for support, because the flying ones didn't really produce and day-to-day supplies, like food. That could explain why some stuck around, but not all. That means ones that could produce their own food (and had crafstman to produce other items) should have been far away, or at least in other parts of Faerūn.

Plus, I just don't see an insanely powerful magical empire being hampered by something as simple as food production. As I said, a few cities where the self-absorbed mages just couldn't be bothered with day-to-day things, but not all - the archmages themselves were all geniuses. Most would have anticipated that oversight. For example, there was one (in canon) that was designed to scoop-up millions of fish.

I think it would be better to come up with some sort of McGuffin for the region that kept them close - some magical power-source they tapped into. It would also help to explain why the Phaerimm were drawn to the region... TWICE. Maybe the mechanic that enabled Mythalar to power psuedo-magical devices was actually the Mythalar amplifying an already-existing magical field? Something the Phaerimm either built or tapped-into themselves? It could explain A LOT.


And to take this new theory one step further, maybe the Netherese didn't build the Thaluud (Tomb-tappers) - maybe they are some sort of protection - like anti-bodies - for whatever is 'trapped' beneath Anauroch.

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On this topic, some of them were elsewhere. Larloch's Jeksidur for instance crashed in Vaasa/Damara area. The city of Doubloon. Plus, the fact that all these folk from Netheril migrated to Halruaa really makes me suspect that there were some flying cities down there already and they just weren't mentioned (and given the number of mountains surrounding Halruaa, perhaps some just landed there).

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But the point is that the bulk of them stayed in in the same general vicinity, for no readily apparent reason.

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Originally posted by George Krashos

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But the point is that the bulk of them stayed in in the same general vicinity, for no readily apparent reason.

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Food and security.

-- George Krashos

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Originally posted by KanzenAU

Could it be possible that moving the flying cities around took immense energy or a spell known only to few (haven't read the Netheril sources yet)?

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Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Again there are a few more reasons for why there aren't more enclaves outside Netheril.

The Netherese did not know there was a problem initially. The desert kept spreading but there was no indication it was a malicious act. So many focused on trying to prevent it but just as many ignored it and assumed that it would go away in time.

Once the Netherese realised it was an evil entity behind it then Netheril was for all intents and purposes at war with the phaerimm. As part of that war the archwizards and their enclaves became in charge of Netheril (up until that point it was a democratic form of government of the land bound settlements with the enclaves apart from that rule but existing within its geographic borders). Ioulaum was the leader of the Archwizards because he was the first and best of them. Most archwizards did whatever he said out of respect or fear for the foremost archwizard of every age of Netheril since the Mythallar Age.

So Netheril is at war with the phaerimm. Ioulaum gets the enclaves involved. Most of the enclaves answer the call. Netheril hadn't lost a conflict in millennia. Most would have assumed this was a war they couldn't lose. So there is no need to flee and the only enclaves outside Netheril would be those actually doing something (searching ruins gathering reagents performing experiments etc).

Gradually the desert expands and people on the ground start to flee (small numbers at first then greater numbers especially in the west of Netheril). The archwizards and their enclaves however still remain because they are arrogant and believe themselves magically supreme and unbeatable.

Towards the end (-350DR) it becomes obvious to most that Netheril has lost. Ioulaum even withdraws from Netheril itself leaving the mad Karsus in charge.

At this point people leave in droves from Netheril's borders (including a few of the more astute archwizards such as Raumark). Some head to Halruaa. Some to Lantan. Others set up land bound kingdoms on the borders of Netheril.

The enclaves don't appear to be used. I have a few theories for this. Firstly is that there is a sudden spike in dragon activity in and around Netheril's borders at this time. The purple dragon Thauglor rules the forest kingdom to the south and has an army of dragon vassals at his disposal. Cormanthyr does not like enclaves above its territory and has the power to do something about it and to head west means crossing the desert which is suicide. There are numerous dragon attacks on enclaves within Netheril's borders.

The phaerimm themselves also start targeting enclaves.

If you are an archwizard and you want to flee a foe that seeks your utter destruction and targets enclaves then fleeing on an enclave and keeping it with you is like painting a massive sign above your head saying "Hey Phaerimm I'm an archwizard from Netheril please come and kill me".
There was nothing stopping the phaerimm from leaving Netheril's borders at that time.

Raumark and his followers abandoned their enclave and fled south using other methods to Halrua. One archmage fled his enclave and established a huge stone tree in Luskan linked to a primordial to try and keep himself safe.

I assume that those fleeing Netheril before -339 DR deliberately left the enclaves behind to make it harder for the phaerimm to follow them. Those that left it until -339 DR left it too late and were surrounded by enemies and so had to fight.

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And Netheril always WAS a land-based empire: the "Low Netherese" went right on farming and hunting in the forests beneath the soaring towers and later floating castles and cities of the archwizards, just as they'd always done. Being exploited/enslaved by the powerful mages, just as had always happened. The land base became less important once those floating cities became mobile, but it was always there - - and because almost all of the archwizards had neither the interest nor the developed magic to grow lots of their own food, always necessary.

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In the past I've explained that floating cities developed initially as a way of creating environments under the complete control of their creating archwizard, but still being near to the "underlings" (also Netherese) who gathered foodstuffs or hunted for them or farmed them, and mined (etc.) for various other things the archwizards needed. It had to do with dominance of each other (and beasts that happened to be handy), not other peoples.

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