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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6680 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Jan 2017 : 03:39:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
Could it be possible that moving the flying cities around took immense energy or a spell known only to few (haven't read the Netheril sources yet)?
There were 50+ cities, and they moved around within the Netheril area a lot. They carried their own power sources with them.
Actually there were about half a dozen enclaves that could be properly described as cities. Well so saith Ed.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36880 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2017 : 04:19:23
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
Could it be possible that moving the flying cities around took immense energy or a spell known only to few (haven't read the Netheril sources yet)?
There were 50+ cities, and they moved around within the Netheril area a lot. They carried their own power sources with them.
Actually there were about half a dozen enclaves that could be properly described as cities. Well so saith Ed.
-- George Krashos
Enclaves, cities, whichever -- in published canon, there were 50+, the majority of which stayed in one area despite having the option to go literally anywhere else. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6383 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2017 : 07:29:47
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Well wooly you have been given a dozen logical and plausible reason by multuple people. If they arent directly supported by quotes they are a logical inference from quotes.
The highest archmages abandoned their enclaves, why, so as not to attract phaerimm attention. The enclaves stayed inside netherils borders more often than not, why, because a massive plane full of people requires a lot of resources that are easiest and cheapest to acquire from home. Netheril usually expanded into unclaimed territory (western heartland and the savage frontier and bits of the sea of fallen stars), why, to avoid wars with powerful neighbours.
As for enemies. No one declared war on netheril during its height because it was folly to do so. You dont pick a fight with the biggest bully in the playground, that doesnt mean you dont hate him. As netheril started to falter you can be damn sure those former trade allies became unresponsive and downright rude in their dealings with a dying empire that they never liked.
Ammarindar was preparing a force to specificall counter netheril arcanists. The elves hated netheril because of their abuse of magic but also because they burned away the western half of the rystall wood (the seven sigils war). All neighbours hated netheril because it built its outposts in the territory of others without asking anyone (the mines of dekanter were ammarindar territory, skullport was illefarn, monikar was cormanthor, the three undersea ones were sea elves). And dont forget the dragons of thauglor to the south and the dragons of hoarfaern to the north.
North, south, east, and west had powerful and unfriendly empires.
If we cant convince you with all this then you will just have to go ask ed, because the answer you seek isnt written in black and white in canon. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36880 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2017 : 09:38:40
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The only reasons I have been given have not been supported by logic, especially since -- as we already know and I've mentioned more than once -- not all of the enclaves stayed there. If some made it out without any issue then there weren't that many enemies to keep them in place. If some left and didn't return they found ways to support themselves.
Canon lore supports the option of the enclaves going elsewhere, since some of them did. So far, we do not have an adequate explanation for why 40+ didn't. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6383 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2017 : 10:49:19
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Well all the answers have been plausible, logical, and grounded in the existing lore so i would say they are more than adequate.
I treat FR like real life becuase its lovely and complex and there are no absolutes. It never happens where everyone does something, there are always individual nuances.
When the black death swept through europe why didnt everyone leave. The answer is, its complicated. When bad things happen people (even the rich and powerful) dont all run away, even if they possess the means and opportunity to do so. Yes some people run but most dont. So why is that.
Mob mentality rules when it comes to people. Most people will always do what is easier. And generally most people dislike change.
So for whatever reason the majority of arcanists thought netheril would win, were in denial that there was a problem, were worried about what would happen if they fled, didnt want to leave the power and position they had (and the trappings that come with it), were afraid of what others might think of them, were afraid of what karsus might do to them, didnt want to leave their home.
There are a million reasons why the archwizards didnt leave, all personal to each individual. The more savvy or cowardly or evil ones did a runner in secret (or were well beyond netherils borders when the problems began) and left the enclaves behind so they could remain lost.
Others i dont doubt tried to leave at the end. Synod did and so did those in the western heartlands or the sea of fallen stars. The rest remained because they couldnt get out or any of the reasons above.
Its all perfectly adequate, reasonable, logical (a bit psychological) for many on this thread. If you disagree then you can come up with your own explanation. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6680 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2017 : 11:33:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Enclaves, cities, whichever -- in published canon, there were 50+, the majority of which stayed in one area despite having the option to go literally anywhere else.
Think about how an enclave would travel around. Unless the archwizard in question put in temperature and atmosphere control, it wouldn't be able to go very high. So in simple terms it would be guided by geography as it would struggle to deal with any large mountain ranges. North of Netheril is ice. Not that interesting. West (on the whole) are Eaerlann, Ammarindar and Delzoun. The former isn't happy at all with Netherese enclaves invading its airspace. East is Cormanthyr. Likewise. So the outlets are north and west, north and east and south. South requires the enclaves to either funnel through the mountain ranges either side of the Tunlands or head to the Heartlands proper (south then west). But further south are more elves and Coramshan/Mir/Calimshan. Go south and then east and you hit Jhaamdath.
The Netherese were powerful, but they weren't a cohesive, unified nation. One enclave is going to get its butt handed to it by any of the power nations noted above if it strays to close to their territory. That's why the enclave ruins that we are aware of outside of Netheril proper are all in unclaimed, no man's land: Jiksidur (northern fringes of Narfell), Sakkors and Nhalloth (over the unclaimed Inner Sea), Orbedal (north of present-day Amn in then unclaimed territory). I suspect that many archwizards did explore their surroundings when enclaves first started to go up in droves. I suspect many were wiped out and never heard from again. Fail to see a dozen enclaves return after a couple of years and I'm thinking that your incentive just to take your enclave for a spin would be pretty low.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6383 Posts |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2017 : 17:53:28
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| For me it is about source dependancy (food) and slowness of enclaves. I imagine that such a mass was not easy to move and then not very fast. So for many wizards it would be a huge burden to escape with whole enclave so they decided to sacrifice their people for their own sake. Some like Karse obviously stayed thinking they could win. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36880 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2017 : 18:16:33
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Enclaves, cities, whichever -- in published canon, there were 50+, the majority of which stayed in one area despite having the option to go literally anywhere else.
Think about how an enclave would travel around. Unless the archwizard in question put in temperature and atmosphere control, it wouldn't be able to go very high. So in simple terms it would be guided by geography as it would struggle to deal with any large mountain ranges. North of Netheril is ice. Not that interesting. West (on the whole) are Eaerlann, Ammarindar and Delzoun. The former isn't happy at all with Netherese enclaves invading its airspace. East is Cormanthyr. Likewise. So the outlets are north and west, north and east and south. South requires the enclaves to either funnel through the mountain ranges either side of the Tunlands or head to the Heartlands proper (south then west). But further south are more elves and Coramshan/Mir/Calimshan. Go south and then east and you hit Jhaamdath.
The Netherese were powerful, but they weren't a cohesive, unified nation. One enclave is going to get its butt handed to it by any of the power nations noted above if it strays to close to their territory. That's why the enclave ruins that we are aware of outside of Netheril proper are all in unclaimed, no man's land: Jiksidur (northern fringes of Narfell), Sakkors and Nhalloth (over the unclaimed Inner Sea), Orbedal (north of present-day Amn in then unclaimed territory). I suspect that many archwizards did explore their surroundings when enclaves first started to go up in droves. I suspect many were wiped out and never heard from again. Fail to see a dozen enclaves return after a couple of years and I'm thinking that your incentive just to take your enclave for a spin would be pretty low.
-- George Krashos
But those enclaves that we know of that fell did not fall due to enemies -- they fell from Karsus being an idiot. Unless I am mistaken, the only enclave we know about that fell to reasons other than Karsus fell within Netheril proper.
And despite having potential enemies in several directions, it's not like Netheril was wholly surrounded, with enemies in every square mile around them.
And it's also not like there was no unclaimed territory anywhere.
Even if there was no unclaimed territory and an enemy behind every tree and under every rock, most of those enemies would have had few, if any, options for dealing with something even a thousand feet above the ground.
There was also nothing stopping an arcanist from skirting the northern ice for a few days before turning south, past whoever might have objected, or creating some means of maintaining comfortable temps and air while going high enough to fly unnoticed.
Again, enclaves like Sakkors and Nhalloth prove that leaving Netheril proper was an option. Of those two, one was within spitting distance of what is now Aglarond, a place that previously was home to elves powerful enough to create their own demiplanar homeland -- but it was Karsus that doomed the place.
And there were enclaves that didn't fly, that were beyond Netheril proper, as well -- Sargauth, the Sea of Fallen Stars... Even if the flying enclave didn't originate in Netheril proper, one could have been created anywhere else and not had those potential issues already cited.
Truly, I'm not trying to be difficult here... It's just that this is something that's bugged me since I bought my first copy of that boxed set, and the mere existence of enclaves elsewhere, whether underwater, underground, or soaring above the ground, proves that it was possible for the enclaves -- particularly the flying ones -- to go elsewhere.
So far, the only explanation that's made any sense to me is Markus's suggestion that there was something there in Netheril that they wanted to stay near. But that's no more canon than the inability for the flying enclaves to leave Netheril. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2017 : 19:11:55
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#1, I think everyone is both right and wrong (I should have been a politician LOL). I KNOW all the explanations, and have even theorized at least one of of my own, but I also agree with Wooly, somewhat. The fact that some DID leave tends to negate the logic behind the reasons given (because a 'rule' isn't really a rule if there are exceptions). This is why I tried to apply the psuedo-magical thing into the argument - having them limited to the Anauroch region would be a very attractive reason to stay (and yet, still make it perfectly reasonable for more powerful arcanists to just up and leave). This is the same reasoning applied to the Drow (originally) - they must stay in the Underdark because they need the Faerzress energy for their own psuedo-magical devices. Its a perfectly acceptable plot-McGuffin.
But I think we are mixing-N-matching lore from different editions, and different sources. I LOVE Ed and all his wonderful lore (and the world he created for us), buuuuuuuut... he may be the most 'unreliable narrator' in The Realms. People think of him as Elminster, but I've always pictured him more of a Volo. Now, before you break-out your torches and pitchforks, let me explain - Ed is constantly giving us information from his point of view, which is ALWAYS based on his own Realms (unless he specifically states otherwise). Now, I am NOT saying he is 'wrong' - that would be impossible, I suppose - but he could be mistaken about things like actual numbers, since a LOT of FR was developed by people other than he. However, in this case, I think he has hit closer to the 'core' of the truth than written canon has.
So this is what I think - Take the 50+ number and apply it to what Ed has said AND the lore we have in written canon - the 50+ number applies to ACTUAL cities (and by that I mean any sort of normal-sized settlement, including anything of 'village' size or greater). The few we have heard of in canon are the GRANDEST of them all - the large settlements produced by guys like Karsus and Iouluam. We have what in (current) canon? About twenty named, maybe? Those ARE the ones we picture in our heads when we think of 'flying cities', but those very well could have been the exceptions. Ed himself has said MOST of the empire was ground-based, and also, MOST of the 'enclaves' were just that - floating fortresses/towers/small communities of wizards that kept quite close to the ground, and NEEDED the groundlings for support.
Of the 50+ 'super cities' (probably really just small cities, at best, but still mighty impressive to groundlings), I would reason a good half of them DID journey elsewhere, and that would include the guys we know - Larloch, Iouluam, and Aumvor, and probably quite a few we've never heard of. As I said, the smaller settlements that actually needed full ground support would NOT have left, and would have been under the control of 'lesser' archwizards (a bit of an oxymoron, that LOL). And those arcanists were probably among the 'nice folk' that we have so few of in Netherese canon (like that one sorceress that actually came up with a solution to the Phaerimm problem).
So the 'scummy' ones are the ones we mostly hear about, because they were the most famous (and had the biggest enclaves - 'compensating', much?), and they are also the ones most likely to have survived, because they would have abandoned their fellows (and Netheril). Karsus just falls into this category because he was blinded by his hubris (ego, which falls prey to evil easily), and he may have even been influenced by Shar (according to the AP at the tail-end of 3e).
And because MOST of the enclaves were little more then wizard-towers (with an archmage or two and some apprentices), they also go mostly unfound, because of their smaller size. All of this gives us a very warped view of what Netheril was really like; think of the information we have as "a Realm's Scholar's view", in much the same way we get our RW ancient history from archaeologists and anthropologists, who - when you get right down to it - 'make up stuff' based on the little bit of evidence we have... and it ALL can be completely wrong. Back when I took sociology in college, I recall our professor handing-out an anthropology report based on a strange, ancient civilization. The people in the report were quite odd, and it seemed they were almost insane in regards to some of what they did, and 'accomplished'. At the end we found out the 'report' was written from a point of view 1000 years in the future, and the culture was American, and written as if we had NO written record, and only the surviving bits to go on. The scientists had to reconstruct our culture based on little more than whatever was still around... which wouldn't be much. And they got most of it wrong.
Now, before I start rambling about the absurdity of RW 'history' (which is ALWAYS written by the winners), and get myself mod-spanked, I'll just leave off with this - there are many different ways one may 'read' the facts. All that matters to us are our interpretations of the evidence. Sometimes you have to look at the evidence from a different PoV, is all. Just because something is 'canon', doesn't mean your interpretation of that canon factoid is the correct one. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Jan 2017 19:26:37 |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
747 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2017 : 03:04:11
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| yes I handle it differently. The Netheril cities are gone and the "return" of shade never happened. I strive to ignore anything that occurred after 1368 or so. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1566 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2017 : 05:47:38
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Greenwood's vision of Netheril doesn't mesh very well with the current (as of 3.5e) state of magic in the Realms and in D&D in general. If we assume that magic was much more powerful back in the days of Netheril - an this is from a 3.5e viewpoint, where the only threat to a 20th level wizard is another 20th level wizard - the sheer scale of arcane power wielded by an archwizard would have been tremendous.
Flying cities should be trivial for a bunch of epic-level wizards. Every metagaming trick your players pull at the table? The Netherese did them first.
The main problem with Netheril is that it's another bunch of hyperintelligent archmages in a setting filled with hyperintelligent archmages. |
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Abeir
Acolyte
26 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2017 : 06:51:56
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| I always thought there was a lot of potential for the Netherese in combination with the Underdark. There are numerous Netherese ruins there e.g. Sargauth, Philock. The Jaezred Chaulssin are described as sometimes mercenaries for them, there are at least 2 Drow priestesses of Shar (in Ched Nasad and Sshamath), and Shar subsumed Ibrandul... |
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Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2017 : 12:27:22
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LordofBones: Any D&D setting needs to raionalize why the old "loot" items, and arcane wonders exist, and why magical factories once produced items, but no longer do.
You Point to an interesting problem, but: what happen when Rand Al'thor in the Wheel of time suceeded, or if we imagine a fictious book in Terry Brooks Shanara books, where a Druid builds a computer with mystical powers?
My understanding: The book series end!
So, the Return of the netherese would be an traditional "end of the book" story, and we have an FR where the archwizards is enemies, luckily. Returning an forgotten enclave is an fitting "end of storyline" end of an long RP history line for players, about lvl 20+, including perhaps epic magic and archwizard players, with Paladins on dragon Mounts, etc.
I think it would almost be better to have had Shade return in the middle of a big epic RP module, where the players could experience it first hand. Not as background setting. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2017 : 20:20:59
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Mythallars apparently do have limits. Karsus had to create two mythallars for his Karsus Enclave ("Eileanar"), apparently one just wasn't sufficient to keep his city aloft, and power all the quasi-magical gadgets used by its magically-talented populace, and fuel Karsus's (and Karsus's students') own magical researches.
Shade's mythallar is very old, several millennia older than the oldest mythallars functioning during Netheril's Fall. It's been turned on the entire time, it's probably been "magically attuned" (recalibrated) to function on the Shadowfell, and (at least since Shade returned to the Realms) an ever-growing collection of active quasi-magical items. We could hardly expect any sort of city-scaled power plant or engine we built to operate continually (if at all) over a period of several thousand years.
"Permanent" magical items and spells don't last forever, their dweomers begin to "flicker" and diminish after great spans of time. Mythals don't last forever, they grow old (and sometimes bored, lonely, or crazy) and they begin to malfunction or lose capacities over the ages. Artifacts don't last forever, their powers wax and wane along with the fates and histories of whatever powerful entities created them. Even the gods don't last forever, they change or die along with their worldly faiths. Mythallars are the last surviving examples of Netheril's magical prowess, and the vast majority of them are now dead or destroyed. Shadovar found the mythal at Sakkors "dormant" and invested much magical, divine, and psionic effort to (partially?) "reactivate" it.
And why are (almost) all of the mythallars gone?
Did they violently explode when their cities crashed? If so, it seems they're touchy and volatile things which need to constantly be protected and maintained to keep them intact.
Did they simply "burn out" after their cities crashed? If so, it seems they need to be "recharged" or "refueled" on a regular basis to keep them from running down.
Did they "age", "decay", and "die" over the passing years? If so, it seems they require some sort of living or magical interaction/stimulus to stay "young", and Shade's mythallar must indeed now be quite elderly (so no real surprise if it's also become increasingly nonresponsive and sessile). |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2017 : 21:55:48
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Shade's mythallar seems to be running on Shadow Weave so it should be newer version and as it is under Shar's command it could be ok even after long time. For me magic degrade just out of Mystra's will to make room for new magic and discovery (opening sealed tombs, ...).
Where is the information that mythallars are sentient coming from? I do not remember it only from these halls...
Personaly I do not like this idea and think they should remain only a powerfull magical divices from distant past. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2017 : 00:53:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
And why are (almost) all of the mythallars gone?
Did they violently explode when their cities crashed? If so, it seems they're touchy and volatile things which need to constantly be protected and maintained to keep them intact.
Did they simply "burn out" after their cities crashed? If so, it seems they need to be "recharged" or "refueled" on a regular basis to keep them from running down.
Did they "age", "decay", and "die" over the passing years? If so, it seems they require some sort of living or magical interaction/stimulus to stay "young", and Shade's mythallar must indeed now be quite elderly (so no real surprise if it's also become increasingly nonresponsive and sessile).
My thinking here is that they were intrinsically tied to the Weave, in much the same manner that a nuclear power source is tied to water - it isn't just part of the power-making process, it also acts as a 'coolant'. The Weave may even be a stabilizing factor, the way rods work on a reactor. Once the Mythalar were disconnected from the weave, they lost stability, and most simply blew up. Others may have just deteriorated, while a few may have even developed their own sentience, and became something akin to a 'mini-weave' unto themselves (since the weave is sentient - it had Mystryl). Without that governing body of rules - that 'consciousness' - its just pure magical energy run amok.
At least, thats how I see it all going down. The older ones probably survived (better), simply because they had already begun to develop their own sentience.
And now I am thinking that there may still be one we haven't heard of yet, wherein its creator's mind merged with it, to keep it stable long enough to save his/her people. Basically a Mythalar thats possessed by an archmage (so the Mythalar itself became a sort-of phylactory). Maybe its now an insane, living power plant of magical energy.
And if anyone uses that in a published novel or product, I want 5%. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Jan 2017 00:56:38 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2017 : 02:30:35
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My information about mythallars mostly comes from Arcane Ages: Netheril and about mythals (being "living" and "sentient") mostly from Arcane Ages: Cormanthyr. These topics have been discussed/argued in several Candlekeep scrolls before, lol, the exacting properties/specifications of these magical things were deliberately left ambiguous enough that questions still arise. Maybe mythallars are not "engines", maybe mythals are not "sentient" - that could just be my opinion, based on my understanding of what I read in the texts - but I don't think different answers to those questions would really change any answers to the questions I asked above.
I've basically rejected much 3E and all 4E lore, so perhaps my old 2E lore has been superseded by newer canon, I wouldn't really know. |
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Edited by - Ayrik on 29 Jan 2017 02:32:01 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1566 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2017 : 04:25:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Starshade
LordofBones: Any D&D setting needs to raionalize why the old "loot" items, and arcane wonders exist, and why magical factories once produced items, but no longer do.
You Point to an interesting problem, but: what happen when Rand Al'thor in the Wheel of time suceeded, or if we imagine a fictious book in Terry Brooks Shanara books, where a Druid builds a computer with mystical powers?
My understanding: The book series end!
So, the Return of the netherese would be an traditional "end of the book" story, and we have an FR where the archwizards is enemies, luckily. Returning an forgotten enclave is an fitting "end of storyline" end of an long RP history line for players, about lvl 20+, including perhaps epic magic and archwizard players, with Paladins on dragon Mounts, etc.
I think it would almost be better to have had Shade return in the middle of a big epic RP module, where the players could experience it first hand. Not as background setting.
The Realms are very high-magic as it stands; there are more double-digit level wizards there than in any other setting combined. Magic item factories should be trivial at this point. I mean, there's a Dragon magazine article where modern technology is converted into magical equivalents, all achievable by any wizard with Craft Wondrous Item. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2017 : 05:24:27
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I still think the best way to envision things is the way Ed said - maybe a few 'cities', and the rest were all much smaller 'floaty things', and because the legends of those 'flying cities' would be the thing most remembered about the Netherese, we are getting a very warped sense of how Netheril was. The ones we know about weren't the norm, they were the exceptions. There are probably hundreds of tiny 'enclaves' ruined all over the place that have never been found.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
My information about mythallars mostly comes from Arcane Ages: Netheril and about mythals (being "living" and "sentient") mostly from Arcane Ages: Cormanthyr. These topics have been discussed/argued in several Candlekeep scrolls before, lol, the exacting properties/specifications of these magical things were deliberately left ambiguous enough that questions still arise. Maybe mythallars are not "engines", maybe mythals are not "sentient" - that could just be my opinion, based on my understanding of what I read in the texts - but I don't think different answers to those questions would really change any answers to the questions I asked above.
I've basically rejected much 3E and all 4E lore, so perhaps my old 2E lore has been superseded by newer canon, I wouldn't really know.
I think Mythals are a different thing altogether (the Netherese just borrowed their word for 'magical field-effect'). Mythals are always sentient (although to what extent, no-one truly knows), because the original High Magic Mythals required sacrifices to empower it (a LOT of High Magic rituals did, although I get the idea the elves kept forgetting about that...). I theorize that later, Arcane Mythals were actually the elves picking up some ideas from the Netherese Mythalars. Anyhow, the souls of the elves (and anyone else involved who got 'sucked in') become part of the magic, so they're 'in there somewhere'. Almost like 'ghosts in the machine'. I think with Mythals, the disparate personalities trapped within it coalesce into a sort of 'hive mind', but its not something you can casually have a conversation with (basically just an AI to keep the Mythal functioning properly).
Whereas I think the Netherese used Arcane Mythalars, which didn't require 'souls' to empower them (maybe they tapped into whatever is hidden under Anauroch?), and thus, didn't get that sentience right from the beginning - that had to form naturally within the magical matrix of the mythalar itself (and was probably a byproduct the Netherese didn't foresee... except for maybe Iouluam) over centuries. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Jan 2017 05:26:02 |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2017 : 16:01:32
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| I agree that Mythals are written as sentient but there is a clear trend here to think that Mythallars are also sentient and I am not sure it is canon at all. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2017 : 18:55:06
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Well, IIRC, at least one of them was sentient, AND psionic. I think it was the one under the water - there were two (at least) of those in the SofS. I wasn't a fan of 4e or its lore (or novels), but I do remember something about a Kraken and psionics.
That one may have been a fluke. It would be pretty cool if the owner of that enclave was from ancient Jhaamdath, and designed a Mythalar that was like a Udoxias.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Jan 2017 18:57:47 |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2017 : 21:37:18
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| If I do not count those exploded underwater enclaves than there are two I know of. One is Sakkors that has been lifted by Shadovars and there was a Kraken attack right after it was pulled from depths. I do not remember the name of the other but it should be further east and hasn't moved since it fall. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2017 : 23:45:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I think Mythals are a different thing altogether (the Netherese just borrowed their word for 'magical field-effect'). Mythals are always sentient (although to what extent, no-one truly knows), because the original High Magic Mythals required sacrifices to empower it (a LOT of High Magic rituals did, although I get the idea the elves kept forgetting about that...). I theorize that later, Arcane Mythals were actually the elves picking up some ideas from the Netherese Mythalars. Anyhow, the souls of the elves (and anyone else involved who got 'sucked in') become part of the magic, so they're 'in there somewhere'. Almost like 'ghosts in the machine'. I think with Mythals, the disparate personalities trapped within it coalesce into a sort of 'hive mind', but its not something you can casually have a conversation with (basically just an AI to keep the Mythal functioning properly).
Whereas I think the Netherese used Arcane Mythalars, which didn't require 'souls' to empower them (maybe they tapped into whatever is hidden under Anauroch?), and thus, didn't get that sentience right from the beginning - that had to form naturally within the magical matrix of the mythalar itself (and was probably a byproduct the Netherese didn't foresee... except for maybe Iouluam) over centuries.
2E-era mythals did require a living volunteer/sacrifice during their creation. Elven High Magic was often described as being very "organic" and "attuned with nature and the Weave" in ways which seem almost druidic. Elven mythals were often described as having "personalities" and operating with at least rudimentary "intelligence" when casting magical effects.
Compared vs "normal" (or "human style") magic which is used more like a "technology" or "tool". But even "normal" magic often has the capacity of "intelligent" action - many spells and items which are decisively nonintelligent can still "magically" alter their own parameters or actions on an "in situ" case-by-case basis. The apparent intelligence of a complex multi-layered magical construct like a mythal might be false: it could just be a bunch of very cleverly designed (or "programmed") magic which appears to act intelligently to nonexpert observers, sort of like the google search engine or a starship computer appears to be "intelligent" because it knows all the right answers and because it can even correct all the wrong questions, lol. Then again, perhaps the necessary "intelligence" (recognition, learning, adaptability, decision-making) for every form of magic is provided as needed by the Goddess or the Weave.
Mythallars were described as being disruptive and even "toxic". Every arcanist strove to construct a mythal, turn a mountain into a city, and officially become an archwizard - the pinnacle of one lifetime career and the first steps towards another. But some arcanists and even some archwizards still needed to set up labs and libraries somewhere "clean" when pursuing their magical researches, apparently because proximity of their local mythallars "tainted" their usual facilities.
The magical phaerimm were in danger of becoming extinct by mythallar "pollution", and of course launched their genocidal us-or-them war vs Netheril. Their lifedrain magics somehow depleted the Weave and the land, worse than usual dead-magic zones, very much like Dark Sun's defiler magics. It seems odd to me that the phaerimm would "permanently" extinguish both life and magic, even though they were desperate, yet they could find no better way to strike down or sabotage Netherese mythallars; it suggests to me that a mythallar "consumes" something (magic?) and "expels" quasi-magic, much like any other engine drinks fuel, performs some useful function/work, and spits out garbage.
Elves and other demihumans basically disdained Netheril for ages, and very few of these non-humans were found anywhere on, near, or under a Netherese enclave in no small part because the "emanations" of the mythallars somehow disrupted and impaired their magically-attuned racial abilities.
So I envision mythallars as somehow "churning" or "pulsing" or whatnot, always producing a field of magical "noise" in their proximity. And I envision phaerimm, elves, and other magically-sensitive creatures being somehow strained or depleted by this "noise", on a conscious or subconscious level, while (most) Netherese humans carried on completely sense-blind (and arrogantly disinterested) to what they were doing to their magical environment. Look a how fish, dolphins, and whales behave when exposed to constant (and sometimes very intense) "noise" from boat propellers. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 29 Jan 2017 23:49:57 |
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Return of Shade: Anyone handling it differently?
