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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe
USA
302 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Jan 2017 : 01:09:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
OD&D player: "I recall the time I found that wand of magic missiles!"
3e+ Player: "WHAT? You can only juggle three planets at a time?"
I'd make that O/1/2E player. There has been a big player movement to the Rules in the Book Only. In 2E I always used all sorts of ''strange, unknown and unknowable'' magic...pattered off of the Writing of Ed Greenwood. And players would just shrug and accept it. 3e+ players stop the game to wine and complain and rant if they encounter something not in the rulebooks. They make the common rant of ''I thought we were all playing the same game here'' and things like that. Even with gates, that have a line about possible ''strange and unusual gates'' right in the rulebook...they will say that does not count as it does not say ''how'' they are strange and unusual and the DM can't just ''do stuff''. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2017 : 21:07:26
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
Firstly, was the creation of gates and portals and teleportation circles and such possible pre-3e?
Gates, for the most part, no -- they are, in Ed's words, 'awesome, scary "ancient magic" things', the knowledge of their making lost to the present-day human Realms, though it remains in the hands of a few individuals such as Larloch, who guard it jealously. The relatively easy process in the 2001 FRCS was a rules artefact of the 'PCs can do anything' design philosophy of the time, and I don't count it as Realmslore.quote:
In the original/'home' Realms campaign, the only gates that weren't already guarded by a power group (or being battled over by several power groups) were those lost (forgotten save to legend and fragmentary in-dungeon lore, making gate-use instructions valuable treasure), known to be 'somewhere' in ruins, dungeons, or old palaces (all of them potentially dangerous places to outsiders), or known to be 'trapped' (generally: dangerous or fatal to use except to those who know how to use them properly). So swift, casual, or large-volume overland travel was simply impossible.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
You know, we have two different names for them... who used 'Gates'? Ed?
Yes, Ed's word is 'gates', taken from Zelazny's Amber and Farmer's World of Tiers, and also used by C. J. Cherryh and other authors at that time. 'Portals' is another rules artefact that came along when the 3E designers decided gates needed distinguishing from the gate spell. Some folk in the Realms may well use 'portal' and other alternatives, but 'gate' is the standard term. |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2017 : 22:22:42
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quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
... the DM can't just ''do stuff.''
What?
The only way the game exists is because the DM is explaining things from how the DM is imagining it. The players are interacting with the DM's imagination! Everything that isn't the players dictating actions for their characters IS the DM just doing stuff. That's why I am such an advocate of player's rights to ensure that the DM doesn't overstep the bounds of player-to-character control. That said, the DM has the right to "do stuff" and he is under no obligation to explain it so long as he is fair to his players.
But I feel like we are straying with all the talk of >2 vs. <3.x version elitism. Maybe we should look at what the problem is regarding the trade using magical means. How about tackling it from the other end and saying that an arcane caster of the appropriate level is impossible to keep on retainer? They want to study, experiment, travel, and certainly do not want to answer to some fidgety merchant that is more interested in turning 5 silver coins into 1 gold. And why would a wizard play cargo mover to make someone else rich? This is a guy who has some awesome cosmic power at his disposal and he is going to spend it shipping merchandise for some storekeepers? |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2017 : 18:00:59
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because he might not have the skills for business. SO they might have made a arrangement. Mage will cast a teleportation circle once a week for the merchant and he will obtain hard to find reagents for his experiments. This way both benefit from this deal.
But I agree entirely that DM has to make things up so he could entertain players. If they would demand that I play by the same rules as they I would certainly try and next game would be about characters waking up in nonspace where is only one NPC except them (on similar level). |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2017 : 19:42:34
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Better yet, have the party run into an exact copy of themselves (and everyone else is just 'gone'), and they repeat everything the party says and does.
That ought to drive them nuts.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Feb 2017 19:43:01 |
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Khaelieth
Learned Scribe
103 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2017 : 10:16:20
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The economic system of the Forgotten Realms/D&D is fubar. Do not try to make any sort of sense of it - therein lies madness.
quote:
That means in 1e/2e, magic was truly 'wonderous' and special. You had to find most of the 'kewl stuff'. 3e took the Monty Haul style of early play and turned into THE way D&D was played. Back when I first started playing D&D, if you find a +1 sword in a treasure pile you felt blessed; now players are like, "whats this crap?" Unfortunately, that stripped-away nearly all sense of accomplishment. The only thing you could brag about in 3e (and editions moving forward) was your 'power level', and it became all about 'builds', and power-gaming (what we used to call 'min-maxing' back in 2e).
OD&D player: "I recall the time I found that wand of magic missiles!"
3e+ Player: "WHAT? You can only juggle three planets at a time?"
 {I think I ate to many 'memba berries' this morning}
I remember my first magical item - a bag of holding <3 Bit underwhelmed that it was a bag at first, but very useful!
But D&D/FR is a high fantasy game. I always saw the portal feat et al as requiring some more actual IC learning - the party would need to find a portal. Then study it. Prototypes, etc. |
Also known on other forums as ChazSexington, Kusghuul, and Claudius.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2017 : 12:55:11
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quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
And why would a wizard play cargo mover to make someone else rich? This is a guy who has some awesome cosmic power at his disposal and he is going to spend it shipping merchandise for some storekeepers?
A lot of wizards like to research things, which requires buying books and lab equipment and reagents and material components and all sorts of other stuff that isn't cheap. Working for a merchant could be a good arrangement -- get up in the morning, do some research, stop at lunch time and cast a couple spells, then go back to doing your own thing. For the cost of not even an hour's work -- and easy work at that -- they get a steady, risk-free income. Seems a pretty good arrangement to me.
If I could live comfortably and do what I wanted the rest of time, only working for an hour a day, I'd be all over that. And I doubt I'm alone in saying that, in the real world or any fictitious world you can think of. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2017 : 18:27:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
A lot of wizards... For the cost of not even an hour's work -- and easy work at that -- they get a steady, risk-free income. Seems a pretty good arrangement to me.
Ehhhh... We're talking about a minimum of a 17th level wizard or specialty cleric, who could have only gotten to that level by spending his youth studying for more than a decade then taking on the most dangerous of undertakings against some serious odds of survival for even more years, who can acquire just about anything he needs from his own organizations or conjured by his own power. I can't imagine a person like that, driven for a lifetime to achieve greatness the likes of which a fraction of a percentage of the population has even witnessed let alone done, becoming... a lazy lackey. If you compare that time spent studying and gaining experience & skills to modern life the most immediate professions that I can correlate are highly successful doctors, lawyers, and scientists that are at the top of their fields. How many of those would enter long term employment doing things that do not enhance their skills, burnish their images, or even help them grow professionally in their fields? Okay, I concede that there may be situations where such individuals would do something short term to bring in quick money, but their professions bring in much more over the long term.
By the by, has anyone extrapolated the basic cost to move a ton of goods per mile? I mean, I've been checking the 3.5 costs to cast spells and noticed the passenger fees as the cost to move a person per mile. Conservatively, a person should equal 100 pounds of goods so a ton by ship costs 2gp per mile and by wagon would be 6sp per mile. The basic cost of a teleportation circle is 2530gp for the casting and amber dust material component. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2017 : 22:43:53
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Humans have usualy universal cost of transport - you get place in the wagon, something to eat and drink. For goods you have to consider more things.
Is it valuable? than I need a protection.
How much I need to transport? Is it one or more wagons or do I need something bigger like boat to move it for larger distances.
How far do I need to move it? Is there a water way nearby? Where can I store it? Is it perishable?
General idea is that with larger amount the cost per weight/piece goes down but you also have to deal with more problems that create aditional costs... |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2017 : 20:51:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
Humans have usualy...
No, they don't. They have all the same problems you listed for goods (getting sick, dying of exposure, requiring a specific diet, having travel time issues, being valuable for kidnappers-assassins, being generally obnoxious, etc.., etc..). Yet, there is a basic price to move "a person" from point A to point B by the mile. Now, I've taken that to mean "space is rented in the transport type to move a humanoid mass of small to medium size for a planned distance at that fare" and not "guaranteed delivery of said person in good health and on time with no complications whatsoever."
Also, I discovered a little wrinkle in the discussion of gates, portals, and spells to move cargo from point A to point B - the target cannot be an unattended object. Ergo, nothing can be thrown through, dropped in, or just sent. Everything must be carried and there is a limit to how much can be hauled per person. Without machines like pulleys & cranes to take the stress of the workload, even two way travel will quickly exhaust the labor force unless it is huge enough to provide frequent breaks for differing crew shifts. This doesn't put portal trade out of the realm of possibility but it does increase the fiscal, social, and potentially political pressures on our erstwhile hypothetical merchants. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Wendolyn
Seeker
56 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2020 : 16:50:30
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My apologies for resurrecting this scroll, but I am not aware of a newer one, and I was worrying about the role that Teleportation Circle might play in my campaign and its ramifications, economic and otherwise, for the wider Realms.
I had the following idea for trying to constrain the widespread use of Teleportation Circle: Teleportation Circles can be dispelled by Dispel Magic at range if the dispeller knows the sigil sequence. A Wizard can somehow 'punch in' the sigil sequence while casting Dispel Magic and it disrupts and unravels the teleportation circle at the destination (assuming the Ability Check for Dispel Magic is sufficiently high to dispel a 5th level spell). Furthermore there is no way for the guardians of the circle to know who dispelled the circle, it cannot be traced, the only thing they know if that whoever dispelled their circle must have known the sigil sequence.
I think this ideas allows for a simple way for Teleportation Circles to be destroyed in a sort of asymmetric-warfare style. It would also mean that sigil sequences would be shared only with people you trust, else it could come into the hands of one that disliked said circle (an enemy? an evil wizard? a trade rival?) who could, at very low cost and risk, destroy said circle.
It also avoids the 'magical arms race' that was mentioned in earlier in this thread. You don't need a group of more powerful wizards to police the use of portals and teleportation circles of less powerful wizards (giving rise to an infinite regress problem -- who or what prevents the more powerful group from using teleportation circles?). Instead low level wizards, capable of casting Dispel Magic, are sufficient to disrupt an expensively established teleportation circle. Similar to how a small group of terrorists are capable of destroying something very advanced and beyond their capability to build. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
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Gates, Portals, Teleportation Circles, & Trade
