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Jamey
Acolyte
Canada
7 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Apr 2004 : 03:41:08
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Hail!
A topic that was recently raised around here regards how such lesser undead as skeletons and zombies "see" and what their range of "vision" is.
We are pretty much in agreement that, like the rest of its body, a zombie for instance is animated by magical energies and its bodies muscles and organs are completely useless. Thus, it's eyes must also be completely useless. And thus, it's "vision", or perhaps it's "awareness", must be magical in nature as well.
But the question is, how does this "undead awareness" work? Does it provide the equivalent of 360 degree vision? Does it mimic the living organ? Either way, to what range? Does it operate in darkness? Can it see through walls? Does it see, or just sense life force, or a combination?
Thoughts? Opinions?
Frith!
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2004 : 06:48:07
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Well, taking skeletons for example... There are no physical means for their bones to be joined, much less up and walking around. So the animating force is obviously simulating the functions of the tendons, ligaments, and muscles... Also, the nervous system must be simulated, to some degree, to tell all those phantom muscles (pun not intended) what to do.
So we have a magical simulation of the missing components. There is nothing to indicate any special abilities that skeletons may possess -- they don't have incredible strength or agility or anything like that. Thus the simulated muscles and such are the average variety, nothing too weak or too strong.
We now are looking at magical muscles and everything that would be normal for a normal person. Since skeletons can obviously see and hear people and objects, their ears and eyes are obviously magically simulated. Since nothing of the rest of the body was replaced with enhanced versions, then I'd rule the same for the eyes and ears.
So, I'd say that the skeleton's eyes and ears would function in a manner identical to that of a normal human -- the same ranges, the same line of sight, etc. |
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2004 : 08:48:31
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An excellent question....and response! This is a very difficult thing to work out, ive often thought of various theories on this very issue and decided its best not to think about it, its the most unexplainable element of the fantasy setting, IMO  |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2004 : 09:41:27
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Truly, the undead issue has bugged me for a while, too. The reasoning I put forth is the best way I can explain it...
Thank you for the compliment, though!  |
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Sarta
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2004 : 10:31:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Truly, the undead issue has bugged me for a while, too. The reasoning I put forth is the best way I can explain it...
Thank you for the compliment, though!
... and it echoes Sean K. Reynold's rant on the commonly held belief that undead are immune to illusions, since they are immune to mind influencing magics, located here: http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/undeadseethroughillusions.html. The one exception to their senses operating in all ways like humans is that they do have darkvision.
Sarta |
Edited by - Sarta on 01 Apr 2004 10:31:49 |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2004 : 18:37:39
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The moment I saw the question, I started forming a response. Wooly Rupert, though, made one completely unnecessary.
Very well thought out, O Furry One. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2004 : 19:13:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
The moment I saw the question, I started forming a response. Wooly Rupert, though, made one completely unnecessary.
Very well thought out, O Furry One.
*bows*
As I said, it's something that I've pondered in the past, and my explanation was the only way I could make it make sense to myself.
Bah! The dead should just stay dead, so we don't have to ponder this kind of stuff!  |
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Sourcemaster2
Senior Scribe
USA
361 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2004 : 01:37:28
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| If the undead do have some sort of magical perception, would a blindness/deafness spell work on them, or a modified version? |
But what have all the passing years/Done, but breed new angers, fears?/Show me now an equal worth/To innocence I earned at birth. |
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fourthmensch
Acolyte
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2004 : 03:20:20
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Blindness/deafness would not, no, since the spell discription's target lists "One living creature."
As for a modified version... that depends on the version :). I can see that they might be affected by a version of that spell that only affects undead. |
I want you to go home and ponder the meaning of the word subversive.
Gully Foyle is my name
And Terra is my nation
Deep space is my dwelling place
The stars my destination. |
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2004 : 17:56:03
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I've always used the undead's sensory system based on detecting 'positive energy', almost akin to the way the opposite magnetic poles interact. In this manner somehow the undead in my encounters have a preference for divine spellcasters who use a lot of positive energy. (i.e. healing spells and the like)
This renders skills as hide and spell effects as invisibility more or less useless in combating undead - invisibility to undead however does work, and sort of functions as masking the positive energy f a living being. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2004 : 19:42:48
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But there's nothing to support that view...
If they only sense positive energy, what keeps them from walking into walls or tables? |
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2004 : 19:59:32
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Hmmm... though indirectly it is supported by the fact that visual based spells don't affect them... in other words, their sensory abilities do not rely on the visual spectrum (including infra-red and ultra-violet)
An option could be to consider the wood and stone to be alive 'alive' to some extent - for wood this is a little more easier than stone though.
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Sarta
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2004 : 20:42:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Hmmm... though indirectly it is supported by the fact that visual based spells don't affect them... in other words, their sensory abilities do not rely on the visual spectrum (including infra-red and ultra-violet)
An option could be to consider the wood and stone to be alive 'alive' to some extent - for wood this is a little more easier than stone though.
I'd argue pretty strongly that undead can sense the results of shadow spells from the school of illusion since these spells aren't merely phantasms, but actual weak creation spells. I'm pretty sure that it would be difficult to argue that these spells are "alive".
Again, I'd suggest checking out Sean's rant on this very subject:
http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/undeadseethroughillusions.html
Sarta
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2004 : 02:59:34
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| And, of course, how would one undead creature see another of its own kind? |
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2004 : 09:02:29
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Okay, having read through the SKR article, I'll say that it does make sense to approach it from a 'simple' perspective.
Yet if one wanted to go deeper - and that would require an effort that would be IMO beyond the usefulness for the game - there are loopholes enough in the SKR article.
Using some of the anology SKR is using, where does the (general) undead's hatred for life come from? Is that then also an element of the create undead spell? And it is a hatred that cannot be countered with a standard spell to counter such emotions... since undead are immune to mind affecting effects.
Also in fantasy literature - including FR - there are examples of undead 'detecting' life-force and using it as some sort of a beacon to home into (IIRC the ghouls in the first parts of the Cadderly story behave in such a way)...
Since there is no 'rule' explanation for this, the simple approach is possibly best.
(ps: Bookwyrm, I'll approach things from a story perspective in my game... ) |
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Undead Visual Sense
