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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Nov 2016 : 09:34:59
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I've read it is so, but I cannot find anywhere that lists the planes the Feywild is connected to besides the Prime. What I'm wondering is if it is possible to "walk" to Ellaniath, Vhaeraun's realm, said to be located within Colothys, the fourth layer of Carceri? Now I know that V erases the knowledge of the place from a visitor's mind, but let's just say you remember or stumbled upon it by accident, whatever. Does the Feywild connect to Carceri. Furthermore, now that V's status has been reduced from deity to archfey, would his realm remain on Carceri or somewhere hidden within the Feywild? Thanks.
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Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6405 Posts |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2016 : 13:24:23
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| Not much help at all, KanzenAU. His name is mentioned 3 times with about 20 words, total, connected to them. Thank you nonetheless. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2016 : 13:38:55
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Immortals Handbook? Ve!
Carceri was probably off-limits. Bad example. I think I will look to Faerie Ring: Along the Twisting Way for setting up Demesne for fey lords, similar to Ravenloft's domains, in a way. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 06 Nov 2016 13:46:00 |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2016 : 13:55:47
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| I know your primary interest is FR, but you might be interested in taking a look at that product, particularlly the Demesne, dazzlerdal. In it the fey lords are able to move their place of power from plane to plane. This could certainly be applied in the case of Ellaniath. The release date of the product has been pushed back again, but I have a preview that was released some time ago that contains, at least some, of the information. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2016 : 16:15:08
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I don't think they move it, per se, but rather, are able to alter mortal perception of it (Fey/Elven magic works on a more 'primal' level, IMO).
So, if we go back to MY 'bubbles' theory, each Godly Realm (Demesne, Domain, Sphere, etc) is actually more like a little bubble floating in some cosmic goo. The connection in & out of that place would all be purely mental - if you believe there is a connection, there is. However, there is a 'pecking order' to belief/Dogma:
Beast
Mortal
Deity¹
Archlord²
Individual human (mortal) belief is barely more powerful than that of a single beast. Anything in great numbers could (mentally) overpower something that should be in a higher bracket. Thus, a pack of animals could overwhelm a simple farmer, and a large group of mortals could over-write a deity's desires (thus, Dogma). This is why whenever you have a 'power' that is challenging the one in-charge ("uprising in heaven"), that being needs lots and LOTS of support from other underlings... and even then, it usually doesn't work.
So applying this to the thread subject, The Feywild is a plane, which is basically a 'greater bubble' (its actually merely a reflection of the prime world on the 'underside' of the Upper Planes, but at these levels of power, a reflection has substance of its own). Now, one can picture Godly Realms like bubbles within a bubble (like how Domains work in Ravenloft), but the truth is, nothing is really 'inside' anything else. At least not in any normal sense we mortals can fathom. If a connection exists between two planes/Realms, its because both 'approve' of that connection. Powerful beings (which would include high-Level Mortals) could possibly 'over-write' the rules and make a connection, but there are two caveats: the first is, the powers that rule over those Realms (planes, whatever) would have to overlook the intrusion, either by being distracted elsewhere, or simply not caring enough about it. The second is power level, and relates directly to that last part - the greater the power level of the 'intruder' (the 'rule breaker'), the more likely it will be that the Archlord will intervene directly. You see this is even true within the framework of Ravenloft - if you capture the attention of the 'Dark Powers', you're in trouble.
Thus, a farmer who wanders into some local woods and accidentally into Faerie would be ignored, unless he did something really stupid. An archfey (or anything powerful) that enters will get a LOT of local attention, from whatever is 'running the show' in that area.
So, to my way of thinking, whenever someone thinks they are walking from one realm (plane/sphere/etc.) to another, they are really 'slipping between the cracks' of the universe. You can walk from Ellaniath to the Feywild, because you believe it to be possible. Vhaeraun could be 'taking a stroll' with some mortal visitors in his realm, and they could be walking through (what appears to them) parts of the Feywild. He stepped through a door into his palace, and then after an exchange of farewells, he bids them to leave, back through that same door... and they windup in Carceri.
We have to stop thinking about all these planer things as 'fixed'. On some level, they may be, but not on any level WE can comprehend. We only experience three dimensions out of a possible eleven (or more). The higher level the being, the more of these 'rules' (assumptions, actually) they can break, because the more 'underpinnings of the universe' they are aware of. We have to come up with esoteric terms for stuff like 'folding space', when in reality, no-one is folding anything, because we can't think outside the normal three dimensions.
So CAN someone 'walk' from point 'A' to point 'B' in the multiverse? Yes, if they believe they can, if no other group (especially one they are affiliated with) believes otherwise, and the Archlords at both ends of that journey also don't care, or allow it. Its basically like creating a portal 'on the fly', except you don't see the portal, or the portal is so immense³ you can't comprehend its nature.
¹This would include both 'gods', and primordials, but within this tier you would have the same power-tiers as with deities themselves; ones with higher Divine Rank would overrule those with lower.
²What I used to call a 'Spheric Guardian' - basically any being 'in charge' of a particular Realm, that can change its qualities, like the Domain lords of Ravenloft, or Ao of Realmspace (or even Queen Amlaruil of Evermeet). I thought of calling them 'Overlords', as in, 'Overgod', but thats a common term and I wanted something unique, but simpler than my old 'Spheric Guardian'.
³I think this is what is really going on in the Great Wheel cosmology - all those planes around the wheel aren't really arranged that way at all. So MANY beings - mortals and Powers alike - believe in those connections ('Borders'), that they are as 'real' as real can get. What they really are are inconceivably large portals between those Realms and the Outlands. The sheer magnitude of the power behind all that 'belief' is so strong that almost no being in the universe (except maybe GOD itself, if you choose to believe in that) can over-write those rules. What I mean is that no-one can change them for someone else, by sheer force of will. If you believe in Toril's Great Tree, that's your personal reality, and you take that with you. If you don't believe you can walk from the Nine Hells through the Outlands and on into the Seven Heavens, then YOU can't - that doesn't effect anyone who thinks otherwise.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Nov 2016 16:22:37 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2016 : 21:25:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
I've read it is so, but I cannot find anywhere that lists the planes the Feywild is connected to besides the Prime. What I'm wondering is if it is possible to "walk" to Ellaniath, Vhaeraun's realm, said to be located within Colothys, the fourth layer of Carceri? Now I know that V erases the knowledge of the place from a visitor's mind, but let's just say you remember or stumbled upon it by accident, whatever. Does the Feywild connect to Carceri. Furthermore, now that V's status has been reduced from deity to archfey, would his realm remain on Carceri or somewhere hidden within the Feywild? Thanks.
The Demiplane of Dread (Ravenloft) is also connected to the Prime. Many worlds, many Primes, perhaps "some" or perhaps "all" of them.
The party notices that the weather is unusually gloomy, a thick fog blocks the sun and severely reduces visibility. They get lost chasing some half-glimpsed shadows into the forest and eventually head towards the distant haunting beat of gypsy music. The next village they ride into isn't on their map, it's far more dismal and oppressive than expected, and the local folk are extremely sullen and fearful. The chink of gleaming gold coins can still buy basic accommodations, though it does not buy smiles. The party later sees wolves in the streets, howling at an unfamiliar blood-red moon. And they realize that this ain't the Dales no more - welcome to one of the Domains of Ravenloft! Unfortunately for this party, getting back home will be considerably more difficult.
The link between Ravenloft and a Prime is horror and fear and dread, loss and despair, monstrous evil and inhuman suffering - these are the "elements" from which this demiplane-in-the-ether is formed. The tendrils of the Mists can reach places in the Primes which have these things in abundance (apparently at the whim of the mysterious "Dark Powers" of Ravenloft). The Mists have even reached into regions of remote Athas, a world (almost) impossibly inaccessible to planar travellers. Mileage doesn't apply when you're talking about planes, but Ravenloft possibly drifts between both time and space, it is very difficult to properly coordinate Ravenloft calendars with the calendars of other worlds.
But perhaps the Mists of Ravenloft cannot reach all worlds: our own world has been linked in canon to Toril and Oerth and indeed has many places filled with these awful Ravenloft-attracting conditions, yet no real evidence exists to suggest Ravenloft has ever taken lands or peoples from our world. Perhaps Count Dracula and Doctor Victor Frankenstein and Faust were indeed real people taken by Ravenloft, rewritten as fictional characters because they disappeared from our world completely - outside of living memory? Then again, I should never want to find a domain on Ravenloft which was taken from our world's concentration camps, war zones, or plague-extinguished cities.
The Feywild also has such links, through certain prominent natural features (magnificent trees, sylvan glades, rainbows and waterfalls, pools and wells) and through certain magical phenomena (stone circles, druidic/witchy ley lines and cauldrons, astronomically significant cycles). Folklore on our own world strongly suggests the Fey and the Feywild (and perhaps even a few elven Powers in the guise of pagan deities like the Vanir, Frey and Freya, etc) were once present. A whole zoo full of Fey species are definitively abundant (arguably even dominant) in the Realms, so the Feywild obviously has a very strong connection with Toril. While the Feywild's connection with Oerth seems less "open" and it is seemingly "closed off" from Krynn (outside of some elaborate elven rituals, perhaps).
The Feywild was not formally defined prior to 4E lore, but it fits well with 1E's "classic" planeslore and 2E's Planescape/Spelljammer and most of 3E's silly notions about planeslore (much unofficial or semi-official lore retconned or adapted the Feywild into pre-4E rulesets, with an unusual consensus of popular acceptance). But a constant assumption has always been that the Feywild only connects to worlds and planes where Fey are (or have been) present. I suppose that Fey need to somehow arrive to "new" worlds by other means (like Spelljamming), and prosper for a while, before local links to the Feywild can be formed.
Orcs are most certainly not considered Fey. And dwarves are rarely considered Fey. And goblins are sometimes considered Fey (there are theories about how they might have been orcs somehow trapped on the Feywild and reshaped over the generations). Specific arguments about these races aside, I note that (for whatever reason) the presence of any one of these three races seems to invariably indicate the presence of the two others - any world populated by elves and leprechauns and centaurs will always also be populated by dwarves and orcs. So I suggest that the Feywild appears to have some kind of mystical link to whatever extraplanar realms were the origins of the dwarven and orcish races. (Human) Druids typically have intimate knowledge of the Fey and so they must also know much about the Feywild - while bards and wizards and sorcerers either learn of the Feywild from their own planar explorations or from the druids - so I suspect any world populated by the Fey and by humans will also have druids (even if these must worship an elven deity).
One could theoretically walk from Evereska in the Realms to Arvandor in Arborea, and then to adjacent (not at all Feyish) Outer Planes - assuming the terrain of the Feywild offered a navigable path and Hanali Celanil permitted the intrusion (of Fey and/or of non-Fey) into her sacred Outer Planar Realm and the denizens of Arborea were "cooperative" and one could prevail against all the (supernatural, exotic, beautiful, awesome, terrifying, incomprehensible) features of these otherworldly landscapes. So it should also be possible to walk through the Feywild from a fey place in a fey world to a fey realm in Carceri. And yes (without the necessary preparations and precautions), visitors to exotic planes are always subject to all the usual properties of "nature" and "physics" of those planes during their visit - even if this causes their minds and memories to be wiped. Note that even hellish Porphatys, the Fifth Layer of Carceri, can have "safe" places (such as temples or stone circles) where local properties are held at bay, at least partially or briefly. Of course I'm sure the local denizens (a mix of daemons/yugoloths and demons/tanar'ri, and their variety of nasty fiendish overlords) would not long tolerate such incursions to their homes. Woe to anyone unlucky enough to "accidentally stumble" upon the depths of Carceri. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 06 Nov 2016 22:29:08 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2016 : 16:43:25
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| According to 5e DMG the Feywild is not a transitive plane, the Ethereal plane connects the Material Plane, the Inner Planes, the Feywild, and the Shadowfell. Vheraun's realm probably shifted to the Feywild. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2016 : 17:12:53
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Sure, if you want to stick with 'canon'. 
But I thought most of us gave up on that about 9 years ago. 
As for my homebrewish-version of it, its not quite a transitive plane in the same way we think of transitive planes, so maybe, technically, 5e would be right. More like how Ravenloft behaves (in fact, that's why I figured-out years ago that the two were 'opposites', in a manner of speaking, yet also very similar). There are only a few permanent type 'Gates' from it to other worlds, but there are also thousands (upon thousands) of interval Gates, that only open at a preset time, or after a certain event. And then there are the completely(?) random gates, that seem to open of their own volition... although one might suspect 'Dark (fey?) Powers' were involved. Both planes can literally send 'tendrils' of itself almost anywhere else in the universe, including 'closed spheres' (which are cut-off from the normal transitive planes). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2016 : 17:57:22
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| yea, that's official, in my homebrew Faerie also has branches/tendrils to most other planes, transitive/outer/inner planes are all merged, the astral, ethereal, elemental are just different types of planar paths, conduits, vortexes etc., Faerie's element is wood, like the World Tree |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1628 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2016 : 20:10:56
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| As of 5e, the Feywild is a mirror plane like the Shadowfell. Its not a transitive plane, you have go to the Ethereal plane to get to the Border Inner Planes, then you move into the deeper inner planes, from there you enter the Elemental Chaos, and from there you go to the Astral Plane, and once your in the Astral Plane you can get you Carceri, and once in Carceri you should be able to find the reapm your looking for, once you get to the right layer. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1628 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2016 : 21:09:38
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In 5e the Feywild and Shadowfell are mirror planes to the material plane. The Ethereal Plane, which is a transitive plane surrounds all the three planes, so you have to go through the Border Ethereal without going into the deep Ethereal by accident, then from there enter one of the Border Elemental Planes, go through that to get to the Deeper Elemental Planes, keep going till you get to the Elemental Chaos, and once there you go into the Astral Plane, once in the Astral Plane, you find the right colour Pool for Carceri and enter it. Once in Carceri figure out if your on the right level or not, if not go to the right level of Carcari and then look for the realm you want, and hopeful the God is okay with you visiting, otherwise its going to be a long walk.
Yeah the current cosmology is like the great wheel, but bigger, because they added added the cooler elements of the World Axis cosmology and a few new twists like the Border Elemental, and put the energy planes beyond the Astral Plane (energy planes don't get much of a discription sadly, hope if they give more details its awesome.
Ravenloft if in the Shadowfell now, I think its still sort of a demiplane, just one located in the Shadowfell.
I actually really like the Great Wheel Plus, its retains the great wheels strengths, but adds in elements that add awesomeness and shores up a few weaknesses, so its great. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12096 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2016 : 21:47:08
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Basically, its become
you go to the ethereal and access - the elemental planes, the elemental chaos, your local mirror of the shadowfell, your local mirror of the feywild, and access to Ravenloft
you go to the astral and access - various outer planes
you go to the phlogiston and access - other "crystal spheres" which are in essence other primes
Then we find out that those outer planes also have connections to the shadowfell and feywild
Then we find out that those elemental planes connect to a series of mirrors of other elemental planes, all of which have their own City of Brass, etc.... oh, and some of those outer planes have links to these elemental planes (even though that's impossible)
Then we find out that what outer planes exist for a given prime changes over time. In fact, some are created and or destroyed by various deities in relation to a given prime.
About the only thing that isn't truly connected to all these shadowfells, feywilds, elemental planes, outer planes, etc... is the phlogiston.... except that there is a deity known as Ptah who grants spells even within the phlogiston.... so even that absolute truth may have some flaws. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2016 : 00:06:12
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I prefer to think of transitive demiplanes like the Feywild not quite being "transitive" at all - "overlapping" or "congruent" more accurately describe my thinking, though these terms are also imperfect, "mutually-overlapping" or "quasi-overlapping" might be better. I perceive the Feywild and the Prime each overlapping the other, neither being "above" or "below", both being partially "beside" the other in a coterminous way similar to how the Ethereal envelopes the Prime at all locations but also has a definite "border". I see the Shadowfell as another of these "transitive" strata. Ravenloft as another. And Temporal Prime as another.
The important distinction I mean to convey is that I consider the Prime itself (or each of the Alternate Primes, if preferred) as one (many) of these "transitive" demiplanes, along of course with the Ethereal plane(s) which envelopes it (them). This set of "Primary" planes - in which I include the Feywild, Shadowfell, Ravenloft, and Temporal Prime" - are each transitive in the sense that any of these transitive planes can be used as a shortcut through any other of these transitive planes. A traveller could leave the Prime and use the Feywild or the Shadowfell (or whichever) as a shortcut to another location on the Prime, or as a shortcut to locations on the other transitive planes, or as a shortcut to other distinct planes (Ethereal, Elemental or Energy, Astral, and beyond). In my model the "Demiplane(s) of Prime Material(s)" and the "Demiplane of Fey" and the "Demiplane of Shadow" and the "Demiplane of Dread" and the "Demiplane of Time" (and any number of other such mutually-transitive demiplanes) are a collectively-linked group of "Primary" planes which serve as the fundamental atoms of the planar cosmos, a group of demiplanes which replace the singular position of the Prime(s) as the fundamental cosmic atom of D&D planeslore.
The effect of this being that the Feywild is a complete (and nearly-infinite) world, and a plane (er, demiplane), and even a universe within itself, it is as important and central as we understand "the" Prime(s) to be. So a native of the Feywild would actually view the Feywild as the fundamental centerpoint of the whole cosmos, and would view the Prime as a transitive (demi)plane, perhaps as something like a dim echo of the "true world" of the Fey. A native of the Shadowfell would perhaps think the Prime exists merely to balance or filter the (raw and dangerous) energies of lightness and darkness which are generated by the Inner Planes, and would perhaps think the Feywild is just a (demi)planar "layer" of the Prime where light and life and magic and silliness are unpleasantly potent and skew the "natural" balances or cycles of light and darkness. A native of Temporal Prime might think of the Prime and the Feywild and Shadowfell in terms of how they obstruct and shape the flows of time and history. A native of Ravenloft might be utterly grateful to learn of "other" worlds where fears and torments didn't walk the night - or might be utterly grateful to find unsullied, innocent, and pristine hunting grounds. It's all a matter of perspective. And as always the Clueless Primes are only half-correct in stubbornly and ignorantly insisting that the one world and place they know is the center of the entire universe. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 08 Nov 2016 00:07:31 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1628 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2016 : 00:27:51
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Basically, its become
you go to the ethereal and access - the elemental planes, the elemental chaos, your local mirror of the shadowfell, your local mirror of the feywild, and access to Ravenloft
you go to the astral and access - various outer planes
you go to the phlogiston and access - other "crystal spheres" which are in essence other primes
Then we find out that those outer planes also have connections to the shadowfell and feywild
Then we find out that those elemental planes connect to a series of mirrors of other elemental planes, all of which have their own City of Brass, etc.... oh, and some of those outer planes have links to these elemental planes (even though that's impossible)
Then we find out that what outer planes exist for a given prime changes over time. In fact, some are created and or destroyed by various deities in relation to a given prime.
About the only thing that isn't truly connected to all these shadowfells, feywilds, elemental planes, outer planes, etc... is the phlogiston.... except that there is a deity known as Ptah who grants spells even within the .... so even that absolute truth may have some flaws.
You can also access the Negative and Positive Energy Planes from the Astral.
I wonder if the Phislogisian exists in the Shadowfell and Feywild? |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2016 : 01:41:39
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2E's Spelljammer and Planescape sourcebooks both carefully avoided the question of exactly "where" the Phlogiston exists, indeed they hardly reference each other at all. (Understandably enough, since they were basically two competing versions of the "same" sort of campaign-setting product. Spelljammer came first as an initially very messy and amateurish attempt, Planescape was the polished refinement which followed, but WotC continued to release half-assed Spelljammer lore afterwards because they were struggling financially and didn't dare lose their Spelljammer fans. Planescape was discontinued before 3E but Spelljammer evokes powerfully fantastic imagery and saw timid re-releases until 4E and beyond.)
The Phlogiston can be reached by Spelljammers (or other spacefaring vessels) capable of breaching a Crystal Sphere, it can be travelled through, and it can take travellers to other Crystal Spheres. That's all the explanation Spelljammer lore requires.
The Phlogiston is seemingly impossible to access by any other means, nobody knows how to reach it from the Astral or from any other plane. That's all the explanation Planescape lore requires.
The Phlog is the medium of "space" between between Crystal Spheres, it's the stuff that spelljammers "push against" for propulsion, vessels leave a brief "wake" as they move through it, there are currents and flows and eddies and storms (and, some spacefarer legends say, sucking vortex-like "whirlpools" or "maelstroms" from which there can be no return). The Phlogiston is *extremely* volatile and flammable, the feeblest spark can set off violent explosions. It is impossible to store or hold in containers, unless perhaps they are constructed from the same stuff as Crystal Spheres themselves. It is not quite a gas and not quite breathable, it's difficult to "swim" through, and those stranded overboard quickly fall into a strange comatose state while their bodies gradually vitrify into a hard stone-like substance, but they quickly revive when exposed again to breathable fresh air (even after centuries or millennia have passed).
This last property of the Phlogiston is interestingly similar to the fates of "sleeping gods" on the Astral. Gith Pirates are a degenerate racial offshoot of the Githyanki and most of them retain their ability to planeshift at will into the Astral. More interestingly, a skilled Gith Pirate captain at the helm of one of their special ships can planeshift his entire crew and vessel into (and through) the Astral as well - these pirate vessels can instantly appear and instantly disappear anywhere in space, and in the Astral, but not within the Phlogiston.
There isn't much canon information about the nature of Phlogiston-vs-Astral or of Spelljammer-vs-Planescape. There's non-canon speculation galore, not all agreeable or intercompatible, but most of it on par with (or better than) the stuff offered by TSR/WotC. A common answer is that each Crystal Sphere essentially contains a complete "Alternate Prime Material" plane and that the Phlogiston is a sort of interface "layer" between the Prime Material planes and the Astral, sort of like a "Border Astral" zone. Remember that the Astral is basically a "behind-the-scenes infrastructure" or "backdoor" cosmic place, it really seems like it shouldn't even exist at all, so the Phlogiston is often assumed to be a "layer" of the Astral which wasn't properly "sealed-off" after "construction" of the cosmos was "finished", lol. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 08 Nov 2016 01:59:21 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2016 : 04:04:13
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As an aside, I thought - and STILL think - they should have merged Spelljammer and Planescape. Just make the 'Deep Ethereal' the Phlogiston, and then you would be able to sail ships between planes, as well as worlds (and most 'planer' fantasy considers worlds/planes the same thing anywaY).
Just overhaul Spelljammer as a specialized form of 'Planeswalking' (Planesailing? Can I Copyright that?) :P
2e is was wonderful for all its diversity, but it was also VERY messy. If they could have just 'tigtened it up', like how 3e was, it could have been a thing of beauty. But then when 3e caught fire and every company got onboard with D20, the WotC guys just ignored their other settings, for the most part. they even commissioned 5Rings as the 3e Oriental Adventures setting, rather than their own K-T. Some GREAT things came out of 3e and the OGL, but a lot of very weird decisions were also made. They focused so much on rules, they lost their fan-bases with their worlds.
BUT, now with '4e hindsight', I guess 3e looked like a work of art. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Nov 2016 04:04:37 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12096 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2016 : 13:36:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Basically, its become
you go to the ethereal and access - the elemental planes, the elemental chaos, your local mirror of the shadowfell, your local mirror of the feywild, and access to Ravenloft
you go to the astral and access - various outer planes
you go to the phlogiston and access - other "crystal spheres" which are in essence other primes
Then we find out that those outer planes also have connections to the shadowfell and feywild
Then we find out that those elemental planes connect to a series of mirrors of other elemental planes, all of which have their own City of Brass, etc.... oh, and some of those outer planes have links to these elemental planes (even though that's impossible)
Then we find out that what outer planes exist for a given prime changes over time. In fact, some are created and or destroyed by various deities in relation to a given prime.
About the only thing that isn't truly connected to all these shadowfells, feywilds, elemental planes, outer planes, etc... is the phlogiston.... except that there is a deity known as Ptah who grants spells even within the .... so even that absolute truth may have some flaws.
You can also access the Negative and Positive Energy Planes from the Astral.
I wonder if the Phislogisian exists in the Shadowfell and Feywild?
That would all depend if the shadowfell and feywild had limits, which they don't "seem" to, since they have all these local mirror of a given crystal sphere, etc... It would seem that the uniqueness of crystal spheres. But for all we know, within the feywild of Toril there may be something akin to a wildspace and you can travel to the feywild/shadowfell versions of the other planets within realmspace. Hell, there may even be a feywild and shadowfell version of a "sun"... which would be interesting in the shadowfell, in that it might be something akin to a black hole. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12096 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2016 : 13:39:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As an aside, I thought - and STILL think - they should have merged Spelljammer and Planescape. Just make the 'Deep Ethereal' the Phlogiston, and then you would be able to sail ships between planes, as well as worlds (and most 'planer' fantasy considers worlds/planes the same thing anywaY).
Just overhaul Spelljammer as a specialized form of 'Planeswalking' (Planesailing? Can I Copyright that?) :P
2e is was wonderful for all its diversity, but it was also VERY messy. If they could have just 'tigtened it up', like how 3e was, it could have been a thing of beauty. But then when 3e caught fire and every company got onboard with D20, the WotC guys just ignored their other settings, for the most part. they even commissioned 5Rings as the 3e Oriental Adventures setting, rather than their own K-T. Some GREAT things came out of 3e and the OGL, but a lot of very weird decisions were also made. They focused so much on rules, they lost their fan-bases with their worlds.
BUT, now with '4e hindsight', I guess 3e looked like a work of art.
You can say that again. I can see the faults in 3e now, in that the difference between low and high level became horrid, which is something I think 5e fixes. However, 5e is missing so much in the way of flavor, spells, options, etc... that I truly think needs to be converted over in some form. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2016 : 14:12:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As an aside, I thought - and STILL think - they should have merged Spelljammer and Planescape. Just make the 'Deep Ethereal' the Phlogiston, and then you would be able to sail ships between planes, as well as worlds (and most 'planer' fantasy considers worlds/planes the same thing anywaY).
Just overhaul Spelljammer as a specialized form of 'Planeswalking' (Planesailing? Can I Copyright that?) :P
This is essentially the approach I have been taking in my campaigns since the 3e era. It has been received very well by everyone I've gamed with (even the most old-school grognards I know). |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6405 Posts |
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Feywild as a Transitive Plane
