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kalos72
Acolyte
USA
44 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Oct 2016 : 17:29:40
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So in my campaign, sort of a 3.5/4ish style in the Neverwinter region, I am trying to draw a line back to the initial documentation about Malkazid and current state Neverwinter/ The North.
The idea I have is this, what if the REASON Malakzid was booted was that he mated with a Noble Sun Elf of the Vyshaan clan, and developing a half Solar/ Half Sun Elf bloodline?
I have seen notations about Malkazid's original job being to guide the elves from under the Dragons, but nothing really about why he was cast out.
I want to use this Bloodline to draw a new character into the group, and adding another real "tie" to The North.
The premise of the group is they are all bloodline to some noble house of the various fallen kingdoms/clans of The North and are gathered together by Ioulaum to unite the North against Netheril.
My group leader is the son of Ioulaum and Tabra, her being the daughter of Halueth Nev'er.
How about that for a campaign hook?
Thoughts?
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2421 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2016 : 18:23:09
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quote:
Originally posted by kalos72
The idea I have is this, what if the REASON Malakzid was booted was that he mated with a Noble Sun Elf of the Vyshaan clan, and developing a half Solar/ Half Sun Elf bloodline?
And where's the "REASON"? I doubt even elves would object if that's someone working for the Seldarine, the Celestials give much less of a damn about it than the elves, and no sign that the deities can be bothered at all. Again, there was something about servants of Hanali Celanil, and even Moonsilver (elfy tiefling orphan adopted by Sehanine Moonbow). |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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kalos72
Acolyte
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2016 : 20:22:42
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I was assuming, maybe wrongfully so, that unlike devils/demons, consorting with elves/humans what have you is against the rules?
If not, then I would need to work on what he did so wrong to be cast out. Maybe he was "reassigned" and that caused Malakzid to lose it? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2016 : 20:46:02
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quote:
Originally posted by kalos72
I was assuming, maybe wrongfully so, that unlike devils/demons, consorting with elves/humans what have you is against the rules?
Even if it was against the rules, that is a major, major punishment for a minor act. Being cast out of the Higher Planes generally involves some sort of major betrayal, like actively rebelling against your deity and working in direct opposition to their interests.
And thanks to an article in the print version of Dragon, it is canon that eladrin in service to Hanali Celanil sometimes have offspring with mortal elves, called celadrin (this was obviously written when eladrin were a separate, planar race, and not another name for elves). So planar servants of the Seldarine are not, at least as a whole, prohibited from getting some elven nookie. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11808 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2016 : 23:28:40
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But, what if Malkizid PAID for the nookie... he obviously would be a horrible person then (at least according to modern principles), deserving of being thrashed from the heavens... and of course she would need to be called prostitute and forced to wear some red elvish letter (like maybe a letter W in old Espruar to match the word whore... and also because it'd be just the right shape to cup and lift her boobs).
Joking aside, we have a rough why he was cast out. He was seduced by Araushnee/future Lolth into "betraying Corellon". How he betrayed Corellon? Could be that he slept with Araushnee and Corellon got mad because that was his to play with. It could be that he attacked Corellon. It could be that he gave out information he shouldn't have or allowed Araushnee access somewhere he shouldn't have. What we can say is that Araushnee was getting around (Fenmarel, Malkizid, Tarsellis... and of course Corellon)
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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kalos72
Acolyte
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2016 : 00:02:31
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Lloth gets tossed out but her General Malkizid is spared and is given a second chance. Lloth, feeling betrayed and jealous, works to corrupt her life long follower.
Lloth tricks Malkizid into thinking the Lady Vyshandria Amarillis-Moonflower loves him and wants to marry him. Malkizid enamored with her beauty and the proposition of eternal love, then slips into her chambers, quietly using his celestial powers and mates with her, impregnating her.
Realizing what happened, Lady Vyshandria Amarillis-Moonflower cries rape and prays to Corellon for aid. Learning of Llolth's influence and Malkizids actions, he throws Malkizid out.
A year later, Lady Vyshandria Amarillis-Moonflower sends the illegitimate child, being half Solar half Sun Elf, to...somewhere. :)
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2016 : 02:42:49
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quote:
Originally posted by kalos72
Lloth gets tossed out but her General Malkizid is spared and is given a second chance. Lloth, feeling betrayed and jealous, works to corrupt her life long follower.
Lloth tricks Malkizid into thinking the Lady Vyshandria Amarillis-Moonflower loves him and wants to marry him. Malkizid enamored with her beauty and the proposition of eternal love, then slips into her chambers, quietly using his celestial powers and mates with her, impregnating her.
Realizing what happened, Lady Vyshandria Amarillis-Moonflower cries rape and prays to Corellon for aid. Learning of Llolth's influence and Malkizids actions, he throws Malkizid out.
A year later, Lady Vyshandria Amarillis-Moonflower sends the illegitimate child, being half Solar half Sun Elf, to...somewhere. :)
Meh, that's still a weak justification for such a punishment. |
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kalos72
Acolyte
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2016 : 03:20:41
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How would you make it more feasible in your mind then? I am asking for feedback for sure. :)
I am looking for a strong, unique Scourged Legion antagonist character and thought if the Devils/Demons could do it to make tanaruuks, why cant the good guys. I am reaching here I know... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2016 : 05:41:19
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The good guys *can* -- from Dragon 350, "Legacies of Ancient Empires"
quote:
Celadrins are a race of planetouched descended from the unions of elven worshippers of Hanali Celanil and eladrins (usually firre) consummated during summer solstice revels.
There is nothing implausible at all about entities from the Higher Planes having relations with mortals and siring kids -- as I say, we have it made canon right there, for elven planetouched. And there are, of course, aasimar as well, as a planetouched race descended from good planar critters.
And honestly, I don't have an issue with the idea that Malkizid sired his own line of planetouched. I just have an issue with any variation on him getting kicked out of the heavens for simply having nookie. It's obviously okay for others, and the punishment truly does not fit the crime.
I'm not all that up on my Malkizid lore, but you could easily spin him spawning some planetouched kids before he was banished. I would agree that he could continue doing so after being banished, but I'd say that he was no longer a solar at that point.
But the timeline is questionable for this... Going by the Forgotten Realms wiki, there's about 20,000 years between him getting the boot from Corellon and hanging out with the Vyshaan.
It's not unreasonable to make a connection between Malkizid and the fiends that originally mated with the Dlardrageths.
Now, for spinning the original idea of yours, and adjusting for the timeline... What if your "solar elves" were spawned by another solar? This solar could have also had a lot of ties to the elves, and/or some sort of guardianship over them. I'd tie him to just one or two related families, though, to keep the numbers small.
And if this solar had somehow been slain or imprisoned, after spawning the line of solar elves, then you've got more material right there.
Maybe this solar had once been friends with Malkizid, before the fall of the latter. So Mallie, finding out his old drinking buddy has some elven kids running around, decides to get involved... There's more potential material right there. You could even have him spawn his own line in response, and make them like souped-up fey'ri... |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 29 Oct 2016 05:41:33 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2016 : 08:39:27
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| It might be interesting to create a mythology that traces the lines of the different elven races to different Aasimon. Sun elves from Astral Devas. Wood Elves from Monadic. Moon Elves from Movanic - the other species are either variations of these or magically modified (like sea elves). This deliberately leaves solars and planetars and lights out of the mix, which I think would be in keeping with their roles. |
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kalos72
Acolyte
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2016 : 16:41:29
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So I started to look through the assorted books and materials and found several references to Corellon's solars and thought, could Eilistree have some as well? Maybe back in the Miyeritar days she had a substantial following perhaps she was given a Solar prior to The Decent? Or later in an effort to strengthen her position when her followers were transformed back to Dark Elves?
I see Liriel Baenre being a great place to start that campaign hook if its later...perhaps a Melarn noble if earlier. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2016 : 16:51:52
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According to Demihuman Deities, Eilistraee has no Solar servants (the most powerful kind of creatures at her service are Mercury and Silver dragons, IIRC).
I don't think that she was given any Solar when her followers were transformed back into Dark Elves, because, well, she was assumed dead, and because actually not all of them were transformed. in fact Eilistraee is said to still be a goddess of drow after her return (and the number of transformed drow is <1k, which is less that the number of followers that she, as a lesser goddess, should have), which--unless the Seldarine have changed--since her being a drow goddess made her relationship with her father and the elven gods strained, means that the situation still looks like that.
Maybe, if Corellon and the Seldarine wanted to consolidate an alliance with her, they could give her a Solar servant in the present era. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 29 Oct 2016 16:59:21 |
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kalos72
Acolyte
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2016 : 17:44:23
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I prefer the current timeline so that works for me and makes sense. I like the idea of supporting her pantheon to combat the Drow and the Solar side to combat the Fey'ri/Scourged Legion across The North.
I will work on a storyline for the "melding" no with the next issue being how to stat a half Solar half Drow Archmage out. :) |
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kalos72
Acolyte
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2016 : 00:30:57
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Does anyone have anything on House Baenre before Menzo?
I found a Menzoberaa Melarn and find the name too similiar, I cant help but think they had something to do with the founding of the city but Melarn are supposed Ched Nasad no?
I am trying to find some history on the House since I want to use Liriel Baenre for my half Solar campaign line. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2016 : 01:11:15
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Not FR canon by any stretch - barely even 'RW canon'.
But in the Book of Enoch, 'Celestial beings' (Angels, demons, whatever) bred with mortals, and thats why they were booted out of 'Heaven'. Perhaps thats the direction Kalos was going in.
D&D isn't quite so... puritanical. Cross-breeding with Celestials is small potatoes compared to breeding with monsters and animals. Still, some groups might take exception with it (Angels, as opposed to Archons, who I imagine as more 'liberal'). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2016 : 01:41:30
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The Baenre are 5k years old, according to the Menzo boxed set (as of the 1300s DR), so the family probably didn't exist as such before Menzo (-3900s DR). They were one of the handful of families led by Menzoberra when they fled seeking refuge from the constant conflicts with the Ghaunadans in their homeland (the first group of drow settlements in the Underdark). There is no direct connection between the two families as far as I can tell, as that homeland was under the region that had been controlled by Ilythiir, which probably means that the Baenre are of Ilythiiri origins, while Melarn was a Miyeritari house.
Furthermore, Menzoberra was clanless (her nickname was in fact "the Kinless").
Ofc, that doesn't prevent you from coming up with some kind of connection between the two houses. Maybe after Miyeritar was bown up some Melarn drow fled seeking refuge in Ilythiir? |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 30 Oct 2016 01:19:08 |
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kalos72
Acolyte
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2016 : 02:37:13
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I am looking for a hook into a Noble House of Dark Elf or Drow to feed into the Solar mix, I dont care what timeline really.
Tiriel Baenre, dissident from Lloth, follower and friend to Eilistree, seems like a likely candidate. But if there is a way to tie the new bloodline back into Miyeritar kingdom, that would be cool too.
I am reading some fan work about the Miyeritar Empire by "phasai" or Snowblood thats where I see the first Menzoberra Melarn reference as a Coronal of Miyeritar back in -13000ish. Then a see a reference to a Baenre Dark Elf mage in one of the "Myth" cities. Seems to imply Baenre was a Dark Elf clan first in Miyeritar, but thats fan work so... |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2016 : 03:00:28
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If you want to use Liriel for that, I'd say to just go ahead. If you want to make Baenre a Miyeritar house, that's also fine IMO. You could also use both (Liriel is a Baenre, after all). Snowblood's work is *really* good, but it's not canon (if you care about it, that is).
However, following Snowblood's work and assuming that the Baenre were originally from Miyeritar, if you want to reconcile it with canon, you could say that maybe the Baenre were a Miyeritari house whose survivors fled to Ilythiir after the Dark Disaster (maybe even before, during the occupation by Aryvandaar). Then they went into the Underdark with the other Ilythiiri after the Descent, founding that first underground drow settlement (can't recall the name, starts with G), and later--tired of the conflicts between the Ghaundans and Lolthites--they followed Menzoberra to found a new settlement, devout to Lolth, in the Northdark. That way they'd have Miyeritari blood. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 30 Oct 2016 13:08:28 |
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kalos72
Acolyte
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2016 : 05:48:31
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I LOVE his work! I was cautious to mention it because some people can get all "canon nazi" about stuff like that. I read everything, and take I want and ignore what I dont. Its a communal effort in my mind.
I think Baenre of Menzo through Miyeritar works just fine for that character, thanks for all the help and feedback. I think I will do the same thing with my Starym character, House Stayrm of Myth Drannor through Sharrven |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2016 : 17:55:20
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Here is a general question.
If celestials can be corrupted why can't fiends be redeemed? |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2016 : 18:01:07
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I think at least one has - it had something to do with a mercenary company, IIRC.
RW/Dogma says 'fallen angels' can't be redeemed, but I think that's because no one (religion) has bothered to write a story where that happens (probably because they don't want people to think that 'all will be forgiven' after you murder/whatever a bunch of people... even though I know of at least one modern one that says exactly that).
And then there is the excellent Michael Moorcock novel, The Warhound and the World's Pain, in which Lucifer seeks forgiveness. You see, he only got in trouble because he did his job just a little too well.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2016 : 18:24:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Here is a general question.
If celestials can be corrupted why can't fiends be redeemed?
Well, there's this: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2016 : 18:53:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Here is a general question.
If celestials can be corrupted why can't fiends be redeemed?
I'm pretty certain Planescape lore did indeed have redeemed fiends. Though not many... It seems to be a common consensus that it's easier for good to fall from grace than for evil to be redeemed. I'm not going to argue that point; it's just an observation from a lot of fiction. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2016 : 19:38:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Here is a general question.
If celestials can be corrupted why can't fiends be redeemed?
Well, there's this: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a
Her alignment never seemed to change. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2016 : 19:40:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Here is a general question.
If celestials can be corrupted why can't fiends be redeemed?
I'm pretty certain Planescape lore did indeed have redeemed fiends. Though not many... It seems to be a common consensus that it's easier for good to fall from grace than for evil to be redeemed. I'm not going to argue that point; it's just an observation from a lot of fiction.
You would think that beings who are born into good wouldn't be able to fully understand the feelings of evil. Just like beings who are born into evil wouldn't be able to understand the concept of good. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2016 : 19:43:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Her alignment never seemed to change.
I think her statblock is misleading, when her story is this:
quote:
Eludecia, the Succubus Paladin
In worlds where magic is common, powerful wizards sometimes use their dweomers to warp and change creatures for their own purposes. However, even more profound changes sometimes stem from the natural forces in the multiverse. One of those forces is love, and love somehow found the succubus known as Eludecia.
She does not talk about what happened, but during one of her many quests to tempt souls and bring them to the Abyss, she met a beautiful angel, and something unimaginable happened -- she fell in love. Eludecia fought against the unfamiliar emotion for a long time but finally realized that she could not win. So she sought out the angel and confessed her feelings for him, though she did not understand them.
When Eludecia asked for help in redeeming herself, the angel was only too happy to accommodate her. After all, the succubus was extremely beautiful, and he could not help but be attracted to her. Furthermore, the accomplishment of redeeming a demon would certainly make him well known in the angelic hierarchy and advance him in his master's service.
Redemption sometimes comes in a flash, but more often it takes years and years of painful work -- and so it was in this case. Born to evil, Eludecia found it hard even to understand goodness, let alone embrace it. However, she persevered until she finally achieved a shaky redemption. She then dedicated herself fully to the cause of good and took on the mantle of paladin, although no deity was willing to be her special patron.
Eludecia knows that she can never purge herself completely of her evil nature without magical aid, but for now, she shuns such help because she is determined to "make it on her own." Thus, she must fight each and every day to avoid slipping back into her evil ways. Thus far, she has succeeded admirably.
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2421 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2016 : 01:14:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
According to Demihuman Deities, Eilistraee has no Solar servants (the most powerful kind of creatures at her service are Mercury and Silver dragons, IIRC).
Also, she set her kip at Svartalfheim on Ysgard (CN/G) - even farther from Lawful planes. And she doesn't have any relevant connections.
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Here is a general question.
If celestials can be corrupted why can't fiends be redeemed?
There were examples of drastic change.
But in general a fiend is more likely to either let unrelated interests (they are sapient beings, after all) take precedence and then drift away from the rest, or gradually come to regard the whole thing as frustrating drudgery and end up joining the Bleakers. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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kalos72
Acolyte
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2016 : 02:33:40
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The other option in my scenarios is, perhaps its not Malkazid at all but another Solar, not thrown from "Heaven", perhaps one of Corellon's that just either falls in love with a mortal or thinks the union will improve the Seldarine's chance of winning the "war"?
Maybe making a super soldier? |
Edited by - kalos72 on 31 Oct 2016 02:34:07 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2421 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2016 : 17:57:18
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quote:
Originally posted by kalos72
The other option in my scenarios is, perhaps its not Malkazid at all but another Solar, not thrown from "Heaven", perhaps one of Corellon's that just either falls in love with a mortal or thinks the union will improve the Seldarine's chance of winning the "war"?
And after more than 2-3 generations, would the descendants be anything more than just elves identifiable as planetouched only if you know what to look for?
They would still have aasimar grade perks, but that's not something overwhelming.
And in a few generations more, there would be only minor cosmetic effects.
quote:
Maybe making a super soldier?
IMO, that's just not how this rolls. The idea that the elves need something more belongs to the times after wars that left the Elvenkind obviously broken and as such grasping for straws. Which is of course when the notorious fancy bloodlines and hissy fits about them started.
For the same reason, neither sticking into this mess, nor giving some elves any obvious "superiority" over others won't look like a good idea for random servants of the Seldarine. After seeing such attitudes, even if they are interested, may as well wait a few centuries until the storm in teacup subsides and wounds heal. After all, they should have even more long-term thinking than the elves. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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kalos72
Acolyte
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2016 : 20:24:07
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That makes sense, could a Solar get tricked into doing it then maybe? Some sort of extremely powerful illusion or mind control?
If not, the Silver Dragon line might work, make the PC half dragon instead of half Solar. Not quite the same but more then just another human none the less... :) |
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kalos72
Acolyte
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2016 : 03:40:33
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| I am not sure if they "still exist" in 4E and later but what about Mithral Dragons? Arent they supposed to be a little of both, working with the Gods and a dragon all in one? I cant find any documented work on them though outside of Wikipedia. Haha... |
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Topic |
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Malkazid Question
