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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Oct 2017 : 04:57:59
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Yup.
Forcing a universe full of 'laws' on a universe full of anarchists - no wonder they're pissed. 
@Zeromaru - I have to wonder what they were thinking there - either someone designing D&D was so ill-informed about D&D that they didn't know about Temporal Prime (which touches all worlds, but its an unimaginable distance between 'time streams', like RW distances between worlds), or, they just 'changed the name just because they could'.
Either is pretty bad.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Oct 2017 05:07:50 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2017 : 06:10:31
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| Well, that plane is a late inclusion to the World Axis. Perhaps whatever person who did include it did to use a cool concept that was left out when the Realms team created the WA cosmology. As for the name itself... well, dunno. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2017 : 17:57:02
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I always have trouble incorporating Time into the cosmological models of D&D, and I only scanned a copy the Chronomancers Handbook before deciding I will probably never try my hand at Time travel stories in D&D. As a consequence I never bought into the theory on Illithids coming from a future version of the D&D multiverse. A plane of Time breaks continuity, which I will not sacrifice for a story with any semblance of realism.
The githyanki rebellion I place timewise to the Crown Wars on the homeworld of Glyth (the 6th planet of Torils solar system), which was settled earlier and transformed into the ash-filled human cattle-factory but abandoned after the disappearance of Gith around -11,000 DR. So the illithid might have been in Realmsspace for about several hundred or thousand years earlier, secretly importing slaves from Abeir-Toril until their slaves rebelled with their newfound psionic powers.
The aboleth claim to be all lifes elders and Pisaethces the Blood Queen might be the first of the obyrinths/elder evils to have put life on Realmspace before moving on, but they believe it was but an "afterthought", as the Blood Queen does this on all infinite realities she comes in contact with. Interestingly the clergy of the Blood Queen revere her through huge red crystal windows, believing that her return would be proof of the finite size of the multiverse, and that as such it can be conquered and completely dominated for eternity. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2017 : 19:48:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
I always have trouble incorporating Time into the cosmological models of D&D, and I only scanned a copy the Chronomancers Handbook before deciding I will probably never try my hand at Time travel stories in D&D. As a consequence I never bought into the theory on Illithids coming from a future version of the D&D multiverse. A plane of Time breaks continuity, which I will not sacrifice for a story with any semblance of realism.
How does having a plane of Time break continuity? Especially given that one of the fundamental aspects of it was that you couldn't alter history... |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2017 : 01:52:06
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I just dont like have a "planar realm" dedicated to Time, the clockwork nirvana of Mechanus is the closest approximation I dare to envision.
Temporal planes were usually described as chaotic maelstroms filled with sands of time (the grounded up parts of its visitors and denizens), but I prefer to have Time strictly metaphysically linked to the turning of the wheels of Mechanus, and have it have a definitively lawful aspect only truly understood by Primus and a few gods with the Time portfolio.
I ignore all time magic except for the slowing up or speeding down of it, and the time anomalies of the feywild and astral plane, because thinking about time paradoxes hurts my brain. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2017 : 09:22:16
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'Time' to move on.
So I spent a lot of time today reading old sources, and the trying to remember where I read stuff from yesterday, and the day before. Research can be painful... and I am not even sure why I am doing this at this point. Anyway, I've been working on building a model of the Elderverse (the universe that preexisted this one). Krash thought we were being weird wanting to know about wars between proto-Gods a million years ago - now I am literally trying to 'map' the Big Bang, and what came before it. I never liked 'squishy' monsters like aberrations, but I am starting to grow fond of them, and am even starting to categorize them (categorizing Chaos... I HAVE truly lost my mind).
I guess as I further simplify my current model of the D&Dverse, I need to re-complicate it. I think I have a way of smoothing out a lot of the wrinkles with the draconics and the creations myths. I'll have to post what I have tomorrow, so you guys can shoot holes in it (I am sure I missed something somewhere). Hopefully I can remember it all when I wake up.
The one truly hard thing I tried doing for a good chunk of today is rectifying Eberron's cosmology with everything else. That funky solar-system of theirs is really screwing me over - so hard to fit that in with the whole 'Crystal Sphere' thing of 2e. I have the seed of an idea for that, but trying to weave THOSE three uber-dragons into all the rest is giving me headaches. Its all too Eberron-specific (like the War of Light & Darkness all over again). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Oct 2017 09:34:03 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2017 : 18:58:33
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| As for Eberron, Keith Baker shared his thoughts about the planes here. Maybe his ideas can be of help. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2017 : 20:53:03
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I'll have to check that out - thanks. in the meantime...
I just had an epiphany. In fact, I'm not sure how no-one thought of this before.
We have this planet, right? or rather, it was once ONE planet and now its TWO planets, right? And every so often things get a little weird and lands and cultures got swapped back-and-forth. Cultures - entire groups of people... get misplaced. Appear out of nowhere. Forgotten Realms. Nothing new there, other than the 4e premises, and they're not so shiny anymore. We have both the Sunderings and Spellplagues (and all a Sundering is just a guided Spellplague), and we have FR's most basic premise - that its the magical universe's 'melting pot'.
And then we have the Imaskari - those dastardly, mustache-twirling villains who just love to kidnap cultures from other worlds... or do they? Are they as evil as we've made them out to be? How do we know that? (some lore books written by guys who've never actually BEEN to Toril? )
For all we know, these cultures came through in the same way this has been happening since the beginning - its a naturally occurring phenomena on Toril. That means Spellplagues are a naturally occurring phenomena, or something very close to them (perhaps they are less detrimental when the goddess of magic and The weave doesn't collapse). In fact...
What if THAT is what The Weave is supposed to do? What if Abeir is the real world (its name does come first LOL), and Toril is just held together with rubberbands & glue? And The Weave is that glue. It starts to go wonky, and all that matter borrowed form elsewhere starts to phase-back to where it belonged... on other worlds. Suddenly, Roman legions find themselves in Chessenta, or proto-Celts find themselves in the Moonshaes, or Eldar (elves) and Dverge (Dwarves) find themselves displaced on their own worlds. Maybe the Yehimals were borrowed from the dwarven homeworld, for all we know. Magic (The Weave) rights-itself and now entire populations are stuck in FR... just as its most basic premise intended.
So maybe the Imaskari were just the 'welcoming committee'?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Oct 2017 21:06:05 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2017 : 22:02:59
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| Seeing the cultures that spread those tales "Imaskari evilness" (a pair of nations full of racists, race supremacists, slavers and hypocritesthey practice slavery yet condemned the Imaskari for doing just the same) and what happened to High Imaskar in the Second(+) Sundering, we can easily conclude that while the Imaskari were no saints, most of their "evil deeds" are just Mulhorandi and Untheran propaganda. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 27 Oct 2017 22:03:43 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2017 : 22:43:52
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Yeah, I don't see them as such. Same with the Netherese - we only hear about the truly bad ones, because those make for the best stories. Halaster himself is Imaskari, and he's not such a bad fella... for a lunatic.
I was being somewhat facetious with the 'welcoming committee' though. What I mean was, they could probably predict where and when large groups of people would come through (or maybe even 'weaken the veil between worlds' enough in a place to allow it to happen). What that means is that they would only really be able to get two types of large groups using this method - advancing armies, and refugees fleeing before them. The armies they could adopt as their own soldiers ("Oh, hi... yeah, the Pharaoh and Egypt aren't around anymore, but if you want to eat and get paid, you can come work for us"), and the rest would be even simpler ("those bad dudes are just about to get you - come work for us, and we'll give you food, clothing, and shelter").
Basically, opportunists, offering a crappy deal to desperate people. And THAT may be what the Fey were giving to the Imakari in those base-reliefs (in the novel Darkvision) - the knowledge to 'thin the veil' to travel between worlds.
Does the feywild touch Abeir, BTW? I am sure the Shadowfell must. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Oct 2017 22:45:04 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2017 : 23:01:57
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New, radical Eberron Cosmology theory: its really just a smaller, distorted 'mirror' of the Great Wheel - Eberron itself is the Outlands, and all those 'spheres' revolving around it are just the planes themselves. What if Eberron lies inside some hitherto unknown plane/dimension and is that 'mirror realm'?
Maybe its even The Great Wheel's local version of the Feywild (which is kinda scary, because that would there should be a Shadow-Great wheel as well). Or rather, aybe its where those two planes should be in regards to the Outlands, but 'the Gods' banned those planes from overlapping with the Outlands, and instead we have this weird 'echo', like the dream of two great sleeping serpents... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Oct 2017 23:03:08 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2017 : 00:42:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Suddenly, Roman legions find themselves in Chessenta, or proto-Celts find themselves in the Moonshaes, or Eldar (elves) and Dverge (Dwarves) find themselves displaced on their own worlds. Maybe the Yehimals were borrowed from the dwarven homeworld, for all we know. Magic (The Weave) rights-itself and now entire populations are stuck in FR... just as its most basic premise intended.
This is what really happened to our lost civilizations LOL. They got transplanted. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2017 : 06:36:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Seeing the cultures that spread those tales "Imaskari evilness" (a pair of nations full of racists, race supremacists, slavers and hypocritesthey practice slavery yet condemned the Imaskari for doing just the same) and what happened to High Imaskar in the Second(+) Sundering, we can easily conclude that while the Imaskari were no saints, most of their "evil deeds" are just Mulhorandi and Untheran propaganda.
Yeah, even their raid that enslaved the Mulan peoples was because of desperation with sickness. Hell, some of the original Mulan people may have even felt for the Imaskari for all we know and come to aid them, only to have it turned against them. The Imaskari may have not conquered and pulled the people over so much as tricked, blackmailed and threatened their families if they didn't comply. But later generations of Imaskari may not have been so bad. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2017 : 07:55:24
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| I recommend you to read the entry on High Imaskar in the 4e FRCG, and then make a comparison with what is said the SCAG, if you have access to both. I see the Shadovar as better than them, now... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2017 : 08:01:28
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Well, unless they had HUGE mobile portals that could 'scoop up' tons of people all together, as I said before, those groups of people had to have already all been moving together in a single direction, either running toward something, or fleeing something themselves. That implies war or disaster (and war IS a disaster).
Poor Imaskar... see what happens when you let too many refugees in. 
{that was a joke folks, so please take it as one} |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Oct 2017 08:15:15 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2017 : 01:19:53
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So, reading some stuff... it seems that almost all primordials, sans a few ones* left Toril with the Sundering. The Sentinel novel confirms that Akadi and "other primordials" went to Abeir when the worlds were separated. So, I guess... we know what happened with Ubtao... and is kinda weird that Akadi still has followers when she is not in Toril anymore (but, well, gods are multiversal entities, so it also doesn't hamper her ability to grant spells and that stuff).
This also means that the old "Abeir for the primordials and Toril for the gods" is still in place. And that the whatever gods were in Abeir, have returned to Toril. The gods were not interested in Abeir at all (in fact, they were wary about this world, as per the Devil you Know), so I dunno any of them had chose to remain there willingly.
*Grumbar remained in Toril after the end of the novel, but the protagonists had to convince him to stay. I guess, the sealed ones, like Maegera or Dendar, that are mentioned in the 5e APs, also remained. But they were sealed and unable to go, to begin with. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 03 Dec 2017 01:27:38 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2017 : 02:37:44
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| I read that book when it first came out, but I forgot those details lol. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2017 : 17:50:44
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| I do read the novels searching for that kind of stuff instead of enjoying them. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2017 : 22:12:02
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| I search lore tidbits, too (though I wasn't really looking for anything about the primordials at the time I read the book), but I read so much that I just forget XD and sometimes I'll remember random details and forget others lol. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 03 Dec 2017 22:13:00 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2017 : 00:20:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
So, reading some stuff... it seems that almost all primordials, sans a few ones* left Toril with the Sundering. The Sentinel novel confirms that Akadi and "other primordials" went to Abeir when the worlds were separated. So, I guess... we know what happened with Ubtao... and is kinda weird that Akadi still has followers when she is not in Toril anymore (but, well, gods are multiversal entities, so it also doesn't hamper her ability to grant spells and that stuff).
This also means that the old "Abeir for the primordials and Toril for the gods" is still in place. And that the whatever gods were in Abeir, have returned to Toril. The gods were not interested in Abeir at all (in fact, they were wary about this world, as per the Devil you Know), so I dunno any of them had chose to remain there willingly.
*Grumbar remained in Toril after the end of the novel, but the protagonists had to convince him to stay. I guess, the sealed ones, like Maegera or Dendar, that are mentioned in the 5e APs, also remained. But they were sealed and unable to go, to begin with.
Zero, I read the novel, but I don't recall that statement, can you requite it in here? I just want to see how it was said for clarity, because we do know that Grumbar stayed and we see other elemental lords mentioned. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2017 : 01:23:03
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There are many statements so far I'm reading, but I guess the most relevant are in chapter 5, when they are discussing Shar's plan to drive away Grumbar, the fact that Grumbar is only staying in Toril because of Luthic (he loves her), and that Shar was making Grumbar believing that Luthic didn't correspond him, so Grumbar was planning to leave when Abeir and Toril divide.
Then, in chapter 17, is stated that perhaps the earthmotes fell across Faerun because Akadi has already abandoned Toril. That means Akadi is not in Toril currently.
That also means that perhaps all the primordials (sans Grumbar and a few sealed ones) left for Abeir in this Sundering. And since Ubtao is missing, this can explain why.
Yeah, I know some Elemental Lords are mentioned in the SCAG as still being revered by Faerunians, but Ed once told me that for gods, the dimensional barriers are not an obstacle for answering prayers and giving spells (and getting faith juice, I guess).
https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/688921844691390464 |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 04 Dec 2017 01:31:14 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2017 : 13:11:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
There are many statements so far I'm reading, but I guess the most relevant are in chapter 5, when they are discussing Shar's plan to drive away Grumbar, the fact that Grumbar is only staying in Toril because of Luthic (he loves her), and that Shar was making Grumbar believing that Luthic didn't correspond him, so Grumbar was planning to leave when Abeir and Toril divide.
Then, in chapter 17, is stated that perhaps the earthmotes fell across Faerun because Akadi has already abandoned Toril. That means Akadi is not in Toril currently.
That also means that perhaps all the primordials (sans Grumbar and a few sealed ones) left for Abeir in this Sundering. And since Ubtao is missing, this can explain why.
Yeah, I know some Elemental Lords are mentioned in the SCAG as still being revered by Faerunians, but Ed once told me that for gods, the dimensional barriers are not an obstacle for answering prayers and giving spells (and getting faith juice, I guess).
https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/688921844691390464
I'm not totally against the option... and actually given that they've been focusing on the lords of elemental evil, maybe that's who came in to fill the void. It might fit better with a lord of fire who is actually evil, etc... and it also opens up options for Talos and/or other gods to portray that aspect more. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2017 : 22:16:51
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I lost a BIG post I had here - I had another browser opened, and finished something else I was doing on another tab, and simply closed the browser (dammit). On the other hand, I think that may have been a 'hand of god' thing, since I was a bit hot-tempered in regards to how important authors perceive their characters to be. To put it as nicely as possible, NO mortal is important enough for a being who's responsibility is 1/4 of ALL MATTER to stop and have a conversation with them. ("Hey, I have 65 trillion other world all going to hell, but let me have a chat with this Mary Sue...")
Part of what I got into was Ed's Down-to-earth-Divinty article in Dragon, and how HE didn't even use Grumbor, Strasha, Istishia, and Kossuth. THUS, it is fairly simple to say those are 'local powers', not the actual primal being. You can use my theory of 'Ubertars' (Crystal Sphere-specific Avatars), and just say they are a 'slice' of the god that it has spawned-off to handle things on that world, or it is a mortal that has ascended and is now 'taking care of business' for the power on a local level (this is my personal preference). I've pretty-much said the same thing about deities like Bane - they are aspects created when a mortal becomes a deity by using a bit of power granted by an archtype. I still prefer to stick with my theory that ALL deities require that 'mortal soul' as a conduit to a specific group of mortals, but you can spin it either way.
So here's my new breakdown: There are Four main primordials above all others - Ea (earth), Ca (fire), Aia (air), and Hya (water), and they have NO 'sexes'. They are the sentience of the those (elemental) planes themselves, which slowly formed out of the Elemental Maelstrom (primal chaos)*. Truthfully, these being have NO names - they are concepts, but they need some sort of appellation for us to refer to them by (and I tried to keep them as simplistic as possible). In Faerūn (and unfortunately, thanks to 'core' 4e, in GH and Nerath) they are known as Grumbor, Kossuth, Akadi, and Istishia. Note I said 'Faerūn', and NOT 'The Realms', because these same four have different names elsewhere - thats because these are just 'local deities' that are acting in the place of the elemental lord (a 'middleman' of sorts). In K-T, we have the 'Four Dragon Kings', in the Hordelands we have Teylas (supposedly Akadi but described EXACTLY like Talos) and Etugen (earth), and in Zakhara, they (mostly) go by other names as well. In Michael Moorcock's multiverse, we have Grome, Kakatal, Misha, and Straasha. Other worlds (settings) have other lists. In-setting, everyone thinks that Grumbor, etc, are THE 'elemental lords', but they are not. They are beings that have been infused with the local bit of that god's power, thats all. Thats what make the most sense.
*Mythological Conjecture:
When the First World (Prime Material) was shattered in a trillion trillion bits of matter, which eventually coalesced (possibly with some help) into Crystal Spheres, Four aspects of the Ordial Ymir/Shiva - who was the first being to 'die' during the Dawn War (from Norse mythos, we have it where 'Ymir' is actually THE Firmament - his corpse became the physical matter upon which the world{s} is built) - became separate entities - the Elemental Lords. Before that, these were just (self-aware) aspects of him. That means the four 'parts' of Ymir were also Sundered, with bits of their powers spread to every crystal sphere. However, the major portion of their psyche was still in the Maelstrom, and they were able to 'pull' themselves out of it, distilling their 'essence' from their brethren (this is when the elemental planes first separated from the Elemental Chaos). However, Gaea (an ordial and Ymir's 'sister') merged herself with the dying Ymir, in order to preserve life in the universe, and from that union (undeath) sprang the fifth element - an alloy of the other four, combined with 'life' (from Gaea). A Sixth (non)element was also formed, unfortunately, to represent the 'Void' where the elements did not exist, and all that was there was the negative energy of Ymir's death (this would be Entropy).
So we have these four uber-Primoridals - the FIRST Primordials, actually - and although the bulk of their consciousness was now the elemental planes, parts of them were also separated into all the myriad crystal Spheres, and these either became 'gods' in their own right (avatars), or grafted onto a like-minded mortal who then ascended, and acted as the power's local emissary. Thats what our 'elemental lords' are - just local gods who Realmsians think are THE God. And when Ao twinned the world, he distilled-out the essence of the Elemental lord itself and put that in Abeir, but other, local powers were allowed to continue to answer prayers to them on Toril. While this lessened the power of these local deities tremendously (at first), eventually they were able to build-up their own priesthoods to such a point they became very powerful in their own right (hence, why Torillian versions of the Elemental Lords were able to spread to other worlds... probably by overcoming and absorbing whatever local powers were already there). They've had 31K+ years to accomplish this, before the 1e setting was published.
So when the Spellplague hit, the original piece of the real Elemental Lords was suddenly rejoined with their respective emissaries on Toril, which both empowered them, but also left them a bit confused (since the great length of the separation had clearly made them individual beings by that point). I would hazard to guess that outside of Faerūn-proper, and other gods that were controlling parts of the portfolios (as I suspect Talos was doing in The Taan) had lost their control of their elemental aspects, lessening them as well. Regardless, this 'confusion' during the Spellplagued era (4e, 'wailing years', 'Lost Century', etc.) is why they weren't answering prayers then - they were still trying to 'get their affairs in order', as it were.
Now, in 5e, we have it where the Primordials were given a choice (and probably still have that choice, if they so which to exercise it) of conjoining with their Torillian aspects, or remaining distinct and separate on Abeir. I have no idea what the novels did, but you can pour that into this premise. If Grome chose to go back to Toril, then there should only be ONE 'earth lord' on Toril now. If Akadi chose to leave (or stay on Abeir - I have no idea about this), then she could still have separate 'aspects' all over Toril (storm gods usually hold the air portfolio for her, although a Sky God could as well). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Dec 2017 22:47:28 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2017 : 03:24:25
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I just read this in I, Tyrant, which I've barely even glanced through over the years, and I find it VERY interesting -
quote:
Beholders and their relatives are odd by any zoological standard, as they exist without all the manipulative organs necessawwhands and limbs being the most notable to the development of a civilized species. More intriguingly, they seem to have compensated for their loss through the development of sophisticated magics.
Some philosophers and plane-travelers have developed an odd theory about this phenomenon. These philosophers postulate the existence of a greater god,
which they call the Fragmented God. According to this theory, the Great Mother is only a small fraction of this original Evil Eye, and several other gods correspond to other organs and traits: there are other eye-gods, an all-consuming mouthgod, a god representing all encompassing reason, and so on.
If these parts can maintain equilibrium with the good eyes balanced against the evil ones, for instance then the reunion of all the parts into a Collected God might enable sages and wizards to learn something about the balance of good and evil, as well as chaos and law.
If, however, the evil fragments are more powerful than all of the Fragmented Gods other parts, the reintegration of these parts could herald the creation of an unstoppable evil force.
Interesting, no? Yet more 'myths' (theories) about their being some primal God that got 'fragmented' early-on, and that some races and/or powers may be trying to 'reassemble'.
This sounds a lot like the World Serpent, and some of our musing on the Draconic pantheon.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Dec 2017 03:31:21 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2017 : 07:00:48
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| The more I read about the D&D mythology, the more it seems that all D&D religions came from a single source that was distorted over time, and that distortion gave rise to different pantheons of gods. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2017 : 15:56:29
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| I personally think they came from multiple sources, just because of the sheer variety. Though of course some myths are left up to racial interpretation, and some things mortals just can't know, I think there are more factual myths (to a point, anyway) in FR than in the RW. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 06 Dec 2017 15:59:36 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2017 : 16:35:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
The more I read about the D&D mythology, the more it seems that all D&D religions came from a single source that was distorted over time, and that distortion gave rise to different pantheons of gods.
The truly interesting thing I take from this is that all D&D mythos is based upon RW myths, and RW are also filled with common elements - a monomyth, if you will. I did a college term paper on it - you'd be very surprised about how much ancient religions have in common, from cultures that supposedly never met each other (right down to the names of certain deities, or groups of beings). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2017 : 17:25:02
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| ^ Very true. I just like to make things more intricate and complicated sometimes |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2017 : 20:57:32
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I'm not sure if this is the right thread - maybe I should change the title to Cosmological (and other) theories.
I've never really been interested in or looked at the Hollow World setting, which is odd, considering that not only am I a fan of Mystara, but I am also an old fan of RW Hollow Earth theories (not saying they are true... or not true... just saying I find them very interesting). And I think I may have missed something profound...
What happened on Mystara (or what I believe to be proto-Mystra, which was likely the First World: Theoriginal, unified Prime Material) - a huge world-shattering disaster that forced 'the gods' to take large swaths of land and peoples and relocate them to 'another world' (The Hollow World) is VERY similar to what Ao did when he created Abeir. this lends a lot of credence to my theories that many worlds have these 'side worlds' - like storage places for stuff that no longer 'fit' after the Godswar (or whatever). In fact, Blackmoor (which I refer to a lot as the original human culture/creator race) was involved in all that, so I am now going to have to work that stuff into my proto-Cosmology as well. Now sure how to spin that yet - right now we have the Dawn war starting after the Human Creator God (who's name is lost) was killed, and then we have the Blackmoorians 'running amok' and destroying the world (with nuclear weapons no less - they had both tech and magic).
Be that as it may, I think this might give us a lot of leeway in what we want to port-over to FR, because maybe any of these 'sideworlds' have stuff (people/terrain/cultures) that can be used by any Overgod (or groups of gods, like the Immortals of Mystara), regardless of originating Crystal Sphere. They're basically like shared 'storage places' for the divine ("Self-Storage of The Gods" lol). I might take it a step further and say that when an Overpower (or whatever) takes from a different Crystal Sphere, he(/she/it) actually just copies the stuff. That helps explain the uber-generic Nerath setting of 4e (which may be GH's 'sideworld', but I've said as much before).
It also gives me a better rationale for 'stealing' Xendrik. Katashaka could easily be The Realms' version of Xendrik, with some cosmetic differences in outline/coasts (which does not matter AT ALL, if you know anything about Xendrik - the geography is chaotic and distances and direction change all the time). In fact, for whatever reason, we could even say that the two are in a permanent 'state of flux' (coterminous) and overlap each other, in a ToT/Spellplague kind of way (places shifting in-and-out of the two worlds), which would actually explain Xendrik's peculiar nature (the terrain is not static - everything is constantly changing). In that way, we can have our (Xendrik) cake and eat it too. Or, to put it another way, we can steal it without stealing it. 
But the cake is a lie... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Dec 2017 20:58:15 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2017 : 19:54:06
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Okay, I just had to shift some stuff around mentally in my Overcosmology.
The Black Diamond Affair probably precipitated the Dawn War... it must have. A piece of Pure Corruption (Xaos) was used to corrupt Titania's sister, who we now know is Auril (what was her name originally? I keep forgetting!) After that, there is a 'lessening' amongst the Eladrin (High Elves), and the elves (Sylvan Elves) become distinct groups. Other instances of 'corruption' start appearing (among the giants and dragons, and perhaps among other Creatori), and the Gods seek an answer.
The Dawn War breaks out over all this (insert 4e lore here), at least one major 'God' (the higher entities I usually call 'Ordials) dies, and all 'lessened' versions of beings now have an expiration date (time had little meaning before then - the death of Ymir/The Prime was the first 'Fixed event' that anchored everything else... it could NOT be undone).
I've been blaming the Dawn War (and the Shattering of the Prime) for the two-tiered system we have for most creatures (planer, and terrestrial), but the reason why it never quite meshed was because of the elves. Thus, by separating the 'lessening' from 'death', and add death in after the fact, it all works. All beings born before the Prime was shattered are immortal (although they can die from accident or killing), while the 'lessened' variety are subject to the constraints of Time. It wasn't just a deicide that changed everything - it was one of the primal concepts (Supernals) of the universe that was destroyed. From a purely technical PoV, all beings born before the Dawn War were 'gods' - what Asian/OA folklore call 'Kami' - including the Creator Races, because they are immortals. That would mean the Sarrukh liches are probably first-generation after the Dawn War (although are they truly liches? I thought they just entered some sort of comatose state, like hibernation?) So maybe I don't even need that last bit - it could just be those 'dessicated husks' of Sarrukh are just how they look after not having a good meal in a few thousand years, so they aren't true liches at all. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Dec 2017 19:55:43 |
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Cosmology Theories
