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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Jul 2016 : 05:46:47
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The chosen are powerhouses. Plain and simple. Larloch - who I'd say is the most powerful villain of the realms (I know others disagree with that assessment - I read that scroll all the way through :P) is afraid of them all because he knows he can't beat 'em.
If Larloch can't see a way to take 'em out with a reasonable chance of success, how could your players :)
I'd say all you really have to decide here is whether they really piss her off or just amuse her. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2016 : 08:03:34
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
The chosen are powerhouses. Plain and simple. Larloch - who I'd say is the most powerful villain of the realms (I know others disagree with that assessment - I read that scroll all the way through :P) is afraid of them all because he knows he can't beat 'em.
I'm not so confident with that assumption.
Especially in light of what Elminster said about the past troubles Larloch and the Chosen experienced during the Sundering and Mystra's eventual restoration. It almost sounded like they were occupying roughly the same level of arcane might.
Granted, magic was awry, and the Weave badly damaged. But from what Ed wrote in Spellstorm, I'm thinking that Larloch indeed could hold his own, at least for a time, when the coins were laid down, so to speak. |
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sw1989
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2016 : 11:34:08
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
The chosen are powerhouses. Plain and simple. Larloch - who I'd say is the most powerful villain of the realms (I know others disagree with that assessment - I read that scroll all the way through :P) is afraid of them all because he knows he can't beat 'em.
If Larloch can't see a way to take 'em out with a reasonable chance of success, how could your players :)
I'd say all you really have to decide here is whether they really piss her off or just amuse her.
First, this may sound irritating so I apologize in advance for it but we're playing a game under the confinement of rules. These rules have and still do allow the unbeatable under flavor to be killed under the rules, so I'm really not prepared to dismiss the chance of my players to kill Laeral.
Second, turning NPCs, especially on the good guys' side, into what amounts to a Mary Sue makes players ask the question "why don't we leave the problem to them?". This wasn't a problem during 4e but was a heavy one in 3e especially when you played in Cormanthor/Dalesland (homeground of Elminster and co.).
So I made Laeral's stats into Wizard(15 Ev)/Sorcerer(4 DrB)/Ranger(7 Hu) with a Chosen of Mystra template. Were using these rules (http://www.dmsguild.com/product/182988/Variant-Rule-Multiclassing).
As you probably know, Laeral's arcane skill was third from the bottom among the Chosen of Mystra (I excluded Qilue for not having any arcane skill). Because 5e only allows you to have 20 levels as a caster, it means that casters who exceed Laeral's skill like Elminster have access to 9th level spells while those on her level don't have it, otherwise the power level inflates too much.
I hope, having access to 8th level spells counts as godlike but makes putting herself into danger too risky which is why the PCs have their place and also the needed motivation to play the game at all.
Thank you for reading and I apologize again for potential annoyance
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2016 : 12:40:06
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I can't speak to 5th E rules at all as I've not looked at them, but seeing as Laeral has personally created both artifact level magical items (she is "one of the greatest human magical item crafters of all time," - putting her on par with the Netherese and Imaskari) and several 9th level spells - one of which is so kick ass Mystra only allows other Chosen the ability to cast it at all - I'd say it is safe to assume her capable of doing so.
I'm also not sure of how you came to the conclusion she's one of the less powerful sisters. She was a 25th/26th level mage former 9th level ranger back in 2nd edition. That means she has more levels total (34/35) than any of her sisters (indeed, there are few NPCs in any realms product accredited with more), and more levels as a spellcaster than any sister other than the Simbul. She also has access to the collection of magic of Blackstaff tower... i.e. one of the largest in the realms.
If you are seriously thinking about gaming her, then you need to remember the Powers of the Chosen. She is basically immune to mind magic/control except by artifact level magics and that of gods, blindness, deafness, disease, feeblemindedness, insanity, infection, infestation, poisoning, and rot. She regenerates, has access to weave healing, has permanent protection from fire, and is immune to several spells. She has silver fire use. BOOM. All this is before you consider her spell use. She should have a significant roster of defensive magic, contingencies, etc. I personally would give her a custom spell mantle along the lines of Alustriel's queenmantle, an elven mantle stone or thael'kiira (still love the name there :P ) because she is a close personal friend of the queen of Evermeet - or maybe even both. Then consider that she is not a rash person and is incredibly intelligent - couple this with divination magic and you have someone that is more than difficult to "trick" into an impossible situation - even if you think 6th-8th level characters are capable of creating an impossible situation.
I'm not saying it is 100 percent impossible to kill Laeral - just 99.9 percent - and that is if you are playing under the rules. If I was the DM, I might not even bother unless they came up with the most ingenious plan I'd ever heard. Having a long term foil for characters is good for a campaign. It might teach your players some wisdom - though that might be asking a bit much :D |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2016 : 13:20:04
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| Ah, well, I'll have to read it some day - I myself linger in the 1300s :P |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2016 : 15:43:16
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| Instead of killing her, let her escape, and become a thorn in the PC's sides... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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sw1989
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2016 : 16:56:48
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I can't speak to 5th E rules at all as I've not looked at them, but seeing as Laeral has personally created both artifact level magical items (she is "one of the greatest human magical item crafters of all time," - putting her on par with the Netherese and Imaskari) and several 9th level spells - one of which is so kick ass Mystra only allows other Chosen the ability to cast it at all - I'd say it is safe to assume her capable of doing so.
I'm also not sure of how you came to the conclusion she's one of the less powerful sisters. She was a 25th/26th level mage former 9th level ranger back in 2nd edition. That means she has more levels total (34/35) than any of her sisters (indeed, there are few NPCs in any realms product accredited with more), and more levels as a spellcaster than any sister other than the Simbul. She also has access to the collection of magic of Blackstaff tower... i.e. one of the largest in the realms.
If you are seriously thinking about gaming her, then you need to remember the Powers of the Chosen. She is basically immune to mind magic/control except by artifact level magics and that of gods, blindness, deafness, disease, feeblemindedness, insanity, infection, infestation, poisoning, and rot. She regenerates, has access to weave healing, has permanent protection from fire, and is immune to several spells. She has silver fire use. BOOM. All this is before you consider her spell use. She should have a significant roster of defensive magic, contingencies, etc. I personally would give her a custom spell mantle along the lines of Alustriel's queenmantle, an elven mantle stone or thael'kiira (still love the name there :P ) because she is a close personal friend of the queen of Evermeet - or maybe even both. Then consider that she is not a rash person and is incredibly intelligent - couple this with divination magic and you have someone that is more than difficult to "trick" into an impossible situation - even if you think 6th-8th level characters are capable of creating an impossible situation.
I'm not saying it is 100 percent impossible to kill Laeral - just 99.9 percent - and that is if you are playing under the rules. If I was the DM, I might not even bother unless they came up with the most ingenious plan I'd ever heard. Having a long term foil for characters is good for a campaign. It might teach your players some wisdom - though that might be asking a bit much :D
Thank you for the reply,
again I have to apologize, I haven't realized we're talking about different timelines here.
The reason, I came to the "third from the bottom" statement is her 3e stat, there she is a 19th level Wizard with 4 Sorcerer and 7 Ranger levels. In other words, during 3e Szass Tam, Larloch, Telamont and even Gromph were better wizards than Laeral. That's where I got her being one of the less skilled Chosens (who had collectively weird builds, though). Also silverfire never really striked me as a very destructive power (I know in the novels it's an "I win" button), it dealt only 4d12 points of damage in 3e, though its real danger was more in the ability to negate Antimagic Field (grappling really helped).
I've made a template "Chosen of Mystra" based on the 3e version. I have to admit I'm surprised what te Chosens were immune to during 2e. In 5e though, Chosens' powers have weakened (and are implied continue to do so), as is the ability of gods intervene in mortal affairs.
Mostz of her former friends (among them her husband) are dead and most magic items she or her husband owned are probably already destroyed in the wake of the Spellplague or owned by other people who took them while she was hiding, added to this comes 5e's heavy limits on magic items.
I share your opinion that she should be 99.9% unbeatable. My ideal is a character of
no one realistically thinks possible to kill but who has some cracks in the armor that allow some theoretical thought on killing her. Wooly Rupert has pointed out that Chosen didn't need to sleep. After rereading the template, they can be put to sleep via magic. Such little cracks, I hope, make the NPC believable to leave the field to the PCs so she doesn't need to face the risks to die without appearing weak.
And at last, I'm the one who wants to see how they want to pull of what they have said. After all my players are currently working FOR her and have actually managed to form a relationship that is not hostile.
Thank you for reading this lengthy post. |
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sw1989
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2016 : 17:01:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
Instead of killing her, let her escape, and become a thorn in the PC's sides...
The PCs are currently working for her. The relationship is not hostile and in the case of them actually attacking her, escape is THE most reasonable and most dangerous outcome for the PCs. As I said before, I'm interested in how they want to deal with her as an enemy, if at all. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2016 : 18:10:03
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I think they had a hard time adapting the chosen into the 3rd ed. structure. In 3rd edition it became important to focus on feats... but how do you adjudicate feats for a person who's hundreds of years old and has been active and adventuring working that whole time? In theory they would have hundreds and that just becomes too cumbersome. Either that or you'd end up with super characters.
I remember one feat that allowed wizard's to chain pretty much any spell over and over. Later in Ed's book the Lost Spell basically allowed the same thing but was the prized that lured archmages into the spellstorm. In short, that feat was way too powerful and led to super spell hurlers.
Anyhow, I hope they are creative. :) |
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sw1989
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2016 : 18:30:32
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I think they had a hard time adapting the chosen into the 3rd ed. structure. In 3rd edition it became important to focus on feats... but how do you adjudicate feats for a person who's hundreds of years old and has been active and adventuring working that whole time? In theory they would have hundreds and that just becomes too cumbersome. Either that or you'd end up with super characters.
I remember one feat that allowed wizard's to chain pretty much any spell over and over. Later in Ed's book the Lost Spell basically allowed the same thing but was the prized that lured archmages into the spellstorm. In short, that feat was way too powerful and led to super spell hurlers.
Anyhow, I hope they are creative. :)
There I can give you some good news. 5e gives you the option (with the DM's approval) to gain new feats outside of the restriction by class.
Our DMs were kind of negligent on that part, you managed to intimidate a dragon? have a skill focus (intimidate) feat or gain trianing or a few skill points for the Intimidation skill.
Thank you again for replying |
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