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sw1989
Acolyte
39 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Jul 2016 : 12:55:23
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Hello together,
my players have made it their objective to tear down the Masked Lord system of Waterdeep. It involves killing Laeral.
Let us assume they succeed (despite them being 6-8th level). What do you think will happen to Waterdeep? Do you think the guilds will start a civil war? Or do you think some groups like the Harpers or individuals like the Chosen will kill everyone who causes ruckus and things will quickly revert to what was before?
I'm asking for input here because I want to plan some characters' action around this possibility.
Thank you for your answer in advance
Edit: I've posted it in a later reply but my players are trying to create unrest through the Rumor rules and my players came already behind that at least one Masked Lord is the culprit of or deeply connected to crime.
So an added situation here would be if the characters are successful (which will be difficult) and the population doesn't want the Masked Lords anymore what do you think will happen as a general rule?
Thank you for reading through this lengthy post and I'm sorry for this much added information.
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Edited by - sw1989 on 06 Jul 2016 18:15:41
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2016 : 14:49:27
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The Hidden Lords pick a new Open Lord and mobilize all their contacts, personal agents, and agents who work (knowingly or not) for the Lords to find out who offed one of their number.
Also, Mystra and her Chosen aren't going to sit back and watch Laeral get killed without some sort of response.
That's not to mention the response from groups that find it suits their purpose to have the Lords around... Or those personally loyal to Laeral, which would include a lot of spellslingers and the Moonstars.
I know it's your campaign and all, but I'd recommend a much easier target. Realistically, they don't have a chance of taking down Laeral, and even if they did, there's still 19 other Lords, some of whom are quite powerful, and all of whom are hidden. |
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sw1989
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2016 : 15:13:09
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Hello Wooly Rupert,
thank you for the quick reply.
Believe me, I was surprised too when they came up with that goal.
So everyone would try to return things to as they were if Laeral dies violently, due to her position as Open Lord.
This here is somewhat follow up question but how do you think would things turn out when the Waterdeep's populace doesn't want the Masked Lords to rule? Because that's what they want to achieve alongside fulfilling the campaign's goal in which a (at least one) Masked Lord is the culprit.
Thank you again for the quick answer |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2016 : 17:49:14
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I think it would be basically impossible for 6th-8th level adventurers to kill Laeral, even if somehow they were to manage to get her alone without a city worth of support and that of her personal allies.
She's not only an archmage, but also a Chosen. Her usual AC is -1, so 8 out of 10 to hit rolls will miss. Even common defensive spells put her completely beyond their abilities to harm with weapons or magic... just imagine if she employed even a basic mantle, which is likely. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2016 : 17:56:19
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| Your group should go after Mystra instead. Afterall, she has proven she can be killed, and killed, and killed. |
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sw1989
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2016 : 18:00:11
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Hello The Masked Mage,
thank you for the reply and I have to apologize. I forgot to write that we're playing a 5e campaign.
Laeral's powers have waned (doesn't mean she's weak) in this edition (still impossible for 6th-8th level). Also in game terms being a Chosen does not mean you're invincible. 3e players remember it properly but killing Storm was very easy.
Even if they die, PC-losses aren't so uncommon among us and if they fail, they fail. Also fighting enemies with a CR double your level is something funny.
And here I have to apologize again because I'm explaining something off topic. |
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sw1989
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2016 : 18:02:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Artemas Entreri
Your group should go after Mystra instead. Afterall, she has proven she can be killed, and killed, and killed.
True, but as good the Spellplague was to shake up the Realms, do you want another one? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2016 : 18:10:25
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quote:
Originally posted by sw1989
Hello Wooly Rupert,
thank you for the quick reply.
Believe me, I was surprised too when they came up with that goal.
So everyone would try to return things to as they were if Laeral dies violently, due to her position as Open Lord.
This here is somewhat follow up question but how do you think would things turn out when the Waterdeep's populace doesn't want the Masked Lords to rule? Because that's what they want to achieve alongside fulfilling the campaign's goal in which a (at least one) Masked Lord is the culprit.
Thank you again for the quick answer
Getting the populace to turn against the Lords is going to be a tall prospect, as well... A lot of Waterdhavians will remember their history, when the guilds ruled, and how disastrous that was. And until the 4E/5E era, Waterdeep's Lords have ruled the city pretty well. Part of Laeral's taking the Open Lordship was to restore that -- and Laeral is pretty well-liked.
Some -- not all -- but some of the guilds and nobles would be happy to see the Lords thrown down, but that's only to see themselves put in charge. And that would piss off everyone else...
I'm not going to say it's impossible, but I don't see a group of adventurers -- especially at that level -- being able to do this. Maybe elsewhere, where rulers are known and widely feared/hated/distrusted, it could be done, but I'd not want to try it in any of the major population centers of the Sword Coast.
Why are your players so determined to pursue this rather implausible goal? And are they evil? |
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sw1989
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2016 : 19:13:48
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Thank you Wooly Rupert for the reply,
first the PCs are all chaotic with 3 of 5 being evil.
The reason, why they are taking this objective is a bit convoluted. Please be aware, this will be lengthy but not completely informative to prevent spoilers for the rest of my group (if they care to look at this forum).
We played in 4e a campaign that allowed Malakuth (the same from the Dark Dagger) to gain control over the various slums and became something of a representative of these, among others through buying a noble title (Yes, he learned the "niceness before knives" approach). Our realms have strayed a bit from the official one.
This campaign plays in a time where Laeral came back and Mistshore is returned to a proper district. The problem is that people lived on Mistshore especially the monstrous sort, who we said came from former Skullport. Somehow, these people must have been motivated to go away or they have been driven (violently) away. The latter is about to happen.
The reasoning for this is that criminality was rising again. The PCs have found out after fighting criminals that they were addicts, that the drug was not cheap but affordable for the poor and that they were either through withdrawal or ordered to commit crimes. The PCs than found out that the money comes from state coffers and managed to contact Laeral (this has to do with an Eilistraee-follower NPC) and found out that at least one Masked Lord is behind or at least supporting it.
The reasons why they came up with "Tear down the Masked Lord system" are the following and some I have to admit at least sound justified. I make a list here, please note these here are not my ideas which is why I might have problems to answer questions about them and if there are some problems like wrong information I'm grateful for people to point them out:
1. The Masked Lord system is not transparent. Because the identities are hidden none has an idea how they came to the decision and whether individual interests were the driving factor.
2. The Masked Lord system is based heavily on nepotism (personally I found it a strong word). People don't get there because of abilities or an understandable system of proving, they are chosen randomly at whim, either by existing members or the passing one. Kyriani's entry in the City of Splendors gives off this image, how is it actually?
3. The Masked Lord system prevents Waterdhavians to have control over their own city and thus their own lives. Legally they are completely handed over.
The example taken here was Malakuth (this is completely outside of canon) who has bought a title but was forced to give it back to the vendor's descendant. The players felt that to Laeral, if it means to right a folly thinks it allright to "step on contracts" and give people who have lost their fortune through accidents or actual folly, but weren't above hiring adventurers as borderline or actual bandits to reclaim them, their old privileges for having the right ancestors. My group (and I have to include myself) viewed this as an attempt to institutionalize oppression, because formerly impoverished nobles from 4e are now THE powerful people in Waterdeep bent on keeping others from rising into a similar position.
4. The Masked Lord system has its failures. At least one has abused his position (Kerrigan) and at least one was killed and impersonated (Hlaviin as Nindil, though we have to give that Hlaviin was a greater doppelgaenger). And if these problems arise it is almost impossible to solve this problem outside of this close intransparent circle.
(5.Killing the Open Lord is almost certainly just for the thrill.)
Thank you for reading for this long post and thank you in advance for all the help you are giving me here.
P.S. I was opting for an easy campaign but this development surprised me. |
Edited by - sw1989 on 06 Jul 2016 19:22:05 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2016 : 22:03:03
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Unless you alter canon, killing a character like Laeral will be a near impossible task for your PCs. As Wooly pointed out, getting people to dislike the Masked Lords system (especially with Laeral at its head, since she has been bringing positive changes to Waterdeep since her arrival), and endorse a coup against them, especially after a century of cataclysms, is not going to be easy either.
Your PCs could try to seek the help of the enemies of Laeral, or of those who would wish to see the Masked Lords destroyed (the Xanathar, for example) but that's going to be risky. They have their own interests, and--with the vacuum of power to be filled--I don't think that your PCs' vision (whatever it might be) would have a place in their own vision. The PCs might just end up as pawns.
They might try and frame Laeral, setting up compromising scenarios that could discredit her, but it would require a massive effort, and other quite influent names in Waterdeep that might be convinced to help you (some guilds could be brought to your side, but how could the PCs be sure that their potential allies wouldn't sell them instead, or use them?). And Laeral is smart, she's going to investigate, she has friends, your PCs would need to be very careful with their steps. They could try to sabotage the city, and spread discontent, but that would again require massive resources/effort, and a quite long time. And it has the same risks as above, if not more. Or, if you want the Masked Lord to actually be a corrupted system, the PCs might have to uncover some hidden truth or shady business involving them, and use it against them.
They might also need to find out the secret identities of the other Masked Lords, in order to complete their revolution, and that too is not easy (evel less with the many false rumors spread by all of them).
A successful attempt would likely require your PCs to pull off all of the above to some degree, and Idk, it seems a very hard things to do for a group of 5 people, without some gamechanging support from a powerful organization. You mentioned the Dark Dagger. That could be a beginning, but they will surely need more. And, as I said, they will most likely need to be manipulative, when dealing with shady allies (setting them up to be neutered once the deal is done, maybe making them appear to be in league with the Masked Lord themselves, or stuff like that). Because, if the PCs truly mean to build an efficient, fair system, then they need to get rid of the organizations that would use the newly gained power merely to increase their profits/power.
You might want to pick up ''Death Masks'', by Ed Greenwood. It has just come out, and it involves a situation very similar to what you are describing (plus lots of lore tidbits about the current happenings in Faerun, if you're interested in that). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 06 Jul 2016 22:24:16 |
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Korginard
Learned Scribe
USA
126 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2016 : 23:32:08
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In all honesty, from what I have read so far in Death Masks, who ISN'T trying too kill off Laeral and the Hidden Lords?
I think the best direction for your campaign is to make direct action impossible, but allow the party to become involved in the plots and intrigue of any number of Nobles, Zhents, Xanathar, and probably disgruntled postal workers at this point!! :P
Alone, a party of adventurers has no chance of toppling the government. Honestly... if it were that easy it would have been done long ago.
The better choice is to have them be caught up in the massive web of intrigue they will find once they start working on their plans.
Try to make it clear that they are small fish in a much bigger Ocean, and the Sharks are out in force!. This new idea of theirs is going up against power players who have been plotting against the lords for years or even decades. If they start attacking Lords or even investigating them, It should quickly be seen that they are not the only ones seeking to end the rule of the Lords. You could create some awesome adventure by putting them smack dab in the middle of the conflict, right in the crossfire between forces seeking to protect the Lords, and forces seeking to end them.
Some ideas
*) The party learns the identity of one of the Masked Lords and decides to break into his manor and slay him. They arrive to find their target is already dead, slain quite recently. Before they can learn much more, the Watch arrives and a chase ensues.
*) The party's actions have drawn the attention of an ambitious Lord who is already working on thinning the herd so he can take over. Does he target them, sending slaying squads to get them out of his or her way, or do they contact the party and arrange for an alliance? Can the party use this alliance to achieve their goals despite being used as fodder for the Lord's ambitions? If they succeed what do they do about their "Benefactor"? Surely once he takes over he won't want these adventurers around any more to take his own government down.
*) Someone has noticed the Party and decided they are a nuisance that must be removed. They choose to frame the party for their own crimes in order to draw attention away from their own plots.
*) The Party has been betrayed!!! Some close contact or associate sells them out to The Watch, The Harpers, or even the Zhents or Xanathar. They become wanted fugitives, either from the Law or hunted by the others. Being unable to show their faces in the city without attacks or pursuit by the Watch makes their plans that much more difficult.
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sw1989
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2016 : 06:03:59
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Hello together,
first thank for your posts. This may sound a bit nitpicky but I feel we're going off topic on this post. People seemed to be interested more in how to kill Laeral (which frankly is more a bonus stage, like the unbeatable bosses in computer RPGs in which you die for the mistake of having picked a fight with them). My question was about the reaction people have if the Masked Lords are ousted.
Wooly Rupert gave me good ideas by saying that various group will try to revert the situation for reasons ranging from love for privileges, personal grudge to genuine dislike of Waterdeep sinking into chaos.
The follow-up question was, if these groups will do the same if the populace doesn't want the Masked Lord to be in charge. Will these groups try to revert the situation as it was against public opinion, knowing that his will make them tyrants? Or will they do nothing for the time being and let Waterdeep fall into chaos until the populace wish the system that they formerly didn't want back and then intervene?
Please don't misunderstand. The posts here are genuinely interesting (while having a tendency to be a bit off topic) and I will answer to the replies in the following. |
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sw1989
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2016 : 06:39:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Unless you alter canon, killing a character like Laeral will be a near impossible task for your PCs. As Wooly pointed out, getting people to dislike the Masked Lords system (especially with Laeral at its head, since she has been bringing positive changes to Waterdeep since her arrival), and endorse a coup against them, especially after a century of cataclysms, is not going to be easy either.
Your PCs could try to seek the help of the enemies of Laeral, or of those who would wish to see the Masked Lords destroyed (the Xanathar, for example) but that's going to be risky. They have their own interests, and--with the vacuum of power to be filled--I don't think that your PCs' vision (whatever it might be) would have a place in their own vision. The PCs might just end up as pawns.
They might try and frame Laeral, setting up compromising scenarios that could discredit her, but it would require a massive effort, and other quite influent names in Waterdeep that might be convinced to help you (some guilds could be brought to your side, but how could the PCs be sure that their potential allies wouldn't sell them instead, or use them?). And Laeral is smart, she's going to investigate, she has friends, your PCs would need to be very careful with their steps. They could try to sabotage the city, and spread discontent, but that would again require massive resources/effort, and a quite long time. And it has the same risks as above, if not more. Or, if you want the Masked Lord to actually be a corrupted system, the PCs might have to uncover some hidden truth or shady business involving them, and use it against them.
They might also need to find out the secret identities of the other Masked Lords, in order to complete their revolution, and that too is not easy (evel less with the many false rumors spread by all of them).
A successful attempt would likely require your PCs to pull off all of the above to some degree, and Idk, it seems a very hard things to do for a group of 5 people, without some gamechanging support from a powerful organization. You mentioned the Dark Dagger. That could be a beginning, but they will surely need more. And, as I said, they will most likely need to be manipulative, when dealing with shady allies (setting them up to be neutered once the deal is done, maybe making them appear to be in league with the Masked Lord themselves, or stuff like that). Because, if the PCs truly mean to build an efficient, fair system, then they need to get rid of the organizations that would use the newly gained power merely to increase their profits/power.
You might want to pick up ''Death Masks'', by Ed Greenwood. It has just come out, and it involves a situation very similar to what you are describing (plus lots of lore tidbits about the current happenings in Faerun, if you're interested in that).
Hello Irennan,
thank you for the ideas. The organization part is a good point. The Dark Daggers in this campaign world have grown and capable of pursuing legal business due to:
1. Malakuth having simply outlived his (criminal) rivals
2. An influx of monstrous humanoids, impoverished elves and generally shuned people like the spellscarred who simply were good recruiting material for him
3. Being or buying the right to be a lord and being one for decades (said campaign that made him an aristocrat used 4e rules but was set 40 years after the Spelllague)
I admit that I thought that a large scale group was enough but due to your post I have to think of some way to put the group (and thus the PCs) into a better light than "the guys who work with gnolls, goblins, kobolds, trogolodytes, ..." in the public eye. I will try to make this point clear to my players so they understand what a dangerous game they are actually trying to pull off alone. I can imagine that they will just try to put Malakuth back to lordship and then secure his position and then (in a potential different campaign) tear down the system.
Framing Laeral sounds interesting but currently they are working with her, so I think openly turning against her until the current situation is solved is very unlikely. What I do think though is that they will use Laeral's resources to discredit the Masked Lords, after all it is suspected that at least one of them is complicit with drug trade. I'm currently thinking of creating a point system like in Tyranny of Dragons to measure tension bur for this I need a better understanding of the worst case scenario and the various power groups' reaction.
Thank you for pointing me to Death Masks. I will perhaps try it out. The problem that Mr. Greenwood's writing style is not my cup of tea. I understand that it can't be bad given the large fanbase but I always had problems reading through his books (I only read Silverfall, Herald and currently trying through Spellstorm so the actual experience is not that deep, though)
Again thank you for the reply and ideas. |
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sw1989
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2016 : 06:52:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Korginard
In all honesty, from what I have read so far in Death Masks, who ISN'T trying too kill off Laeral and the Hidden Lords?
I think the best direction for your campaign is to make direct action impossible, but allow the party to become involved in the plots and intrigue of any number of Nobles, Zhents, Xanathar, and probably disgruntled postal workers at this point!! :P
Alone, a party of adventurers has no chance of toppling the government. Honestly... if it were that easy it would have been done long ago.
The better choice is to have them be caught up in the massive web of intrigue they will find once they start working on their plans.
Try to make it clear that they are small fish in a much bigger Ocean, and the Sharks are out in force!. This new idea of theirs is going up against power players who have been plotting against the lords for years or even decades. If they start attacking Lords or even investigating them, It should quickly be seen that they are not the only ones seeking to end the rule of the Lords. You could create some awesome adventure by putting them smack dab in the middle of the conflict, right in the crossfire between forces seeking to protect the Lords, and forces seeking to end them.
Some ideas
*) The party learns the identity of one of the Masked Lords and decides to break into his manor and slay him. They arrive to find their target is already dead, slain quite recently. Before they can learn much more, the Watch arrives and a chase ensues.
*) The party's actions have drawn the attention of an ambitious Lord who is already working on thinning the herd so he can take over. Does he target them, sending slaying squads to get them out of his or her way, or do they contact the party and arrange for an alliance? Can the party use this alliance to achieve their goals despite being used as fodder for the Lord's ambitions? If they succeed what do they do about their "Benefactor"? Surely once he takes over he won't want these adventurers around any more to take his own government down.
*) Someone has noticed the Party and decided they are a nuisance that must be removed. They choose to frame the party for their own crimes in order to draw attention away from their own plots.
*) The Party has been betrayed!!! Some close contact or associate sells them out to The Watch, The Harpers, or even the Zhents or Xanathar. They become wanted fugitives, either from the Law or hunted by the others. Being unable to show their faces in the city without attacks or pursuit by the Watch makes their plans that much more difficult.
Hello Korgianrd,
thank you for the ideas. I have to admit that I considered and thought about all of them during campaign creation except one. and that is to pit the PCs against the Harpers.
After all, Laeral was one of those who have split the Harpers and while she's in good standing with both of them, rivalry between Harpers and Moonstars and Laeral's loyalty to both groups (and the Lord's Alliance) may be a plot point worth exploring, though I currently have to think of a concrete way to make this happen, if it is to happen at all.
Thank you again for this idea, I can imagine it to be used at some point, perhaps not in this but another campaign. |
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BrianDavion
Seeker
71 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2016 : 07:42:13
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| one thing worth noting, killing the Open Lord isn't going to achomplish jack all in terms of breaking the current system. |
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sw1989
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2016 : 08:21:32
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quote:
Originally posted by BrianDavion
one thing worth noting, killing the Open Lord isn't going to achomplish jack all in terms of breaking the current system.
Well didn't do so in the time during the Spellplague and Neverember's reign and the times were far worse than today (e.g. no Harpers, no Chosen, no gods who bailed someone out). Apart from "killing the Open Lord" being more something of a side/bonus goal (I hope), this is why I want to know how various groups would react especially without public support for the system. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11808 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2016 : 01:54:33
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I think it would be basically impossible for 6th-8th level adventurers to kill Laeral, even if somehow they were to manage to get her alone without a city worth of support and that of her personal allies.
She's not only an archmage, but also a Chosen. Her usual AC is -1, so 8 out of 10 to hit rolls will miss. Even common defensive spells put her completely beyond their abilities to harm with weapons or magic... just imagine if she employed even a basic mantle, which is likely.
It would be hard but not impossible. Trickery can accomplish much that a straight up assault won't. Can they get Laeral to go somewhere that she shouldn't? Can they get Laeral to attack something she shouldn't? Can they get Laeral to pick up something she shouldn't? Can they convince someone else of power that Laeral has done something to them? Leira is not dead.... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2016 : 04:49:38
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Leira? Don't see the connection there - unless you just saying be tricky.
Learal is the sister who goes all the places she shouldn't and walks out again relatively unscathed. Skullport is a hobby. I can't think of anywhere she'd be in so much danger that she would not already know about - the same goes for people she shouldn't attack.
And even if that happens, all she has to do is call her sisters, which she doesn't even need a spell to do. And I still have not even brought open use of the silver fire into the discussion. Conjure up all those moments in the novels of this or that chosen blasting someone you thought was badass to dust and you'll get my point. What are the odds that a group of 20-100 year old adventurers are going to discover some bit of information that has eluded her for several centuries, and master it enough to kill off the most powerful woman on the sword coast.
If you, as a DM, play her with even half the intelligence she is meant to have it should be damn near impossible to trick her to death. I compare this to the "lets go kill the tarrasque," or "great wyrm slaying rampage" plot line. Unless the DM lets them and plays the objective improperly, they just will not be able to.
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2016 : 04:57:40
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| In Death Masks, it appears that the Chosen are less powerful than they used to, and cannot use their magic as wildly, so that could change the situation a bit. But yeah, it's still going to be extremely hard tp harm her. But the only sisters that she could call are Alustriel and Storm atm (although Dove and Syluné can kind of follow her anywhere, given that they can take shape out of Weave-stuff). Elminster might also come to aid her. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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sw1989
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2016 : 09:43:54
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Leira? Don't see the connection there - unless you just saying be tricky.
Learal is the sister who goes all the places she shouldn't and walks out again relatively unscathed. Skullport is a hobby. I can't think of anywhere she'd be in so much danger that she would not already know about - the same goes for people she shouldn't attack.
And even if that happens, all she has to do is call her sisters, which she doesn't even need a spell to do. And I still have not even brought open use of the silver fire into the discussion. Conjure up all those moments in the novels of this or that chosen blasting someone you thought was badass to dust and you'll get my point. What are the odds that a group of 20-100 year old adventurers are going to discover some bit of information that has eluded her for several centuries, and master it enough to kill off the most powerful woman on the sword coast.
If you, as a DM, play her with even half the intelligence she is meant to have it should be damn near impossible to trick her to death. I compare this to the "lets go kill the tarrasque," or "great wyrm slaying rampage" plot line. Unless the DM lets them and plays the objective improperly, they just will not be able to.
As mentioned above, I intend to treat a fight against Laeral as an unbeatable bonus boss agianst whom you "die for the mistake of having picked a fight with them".
But case in point, it is surprisingly easy in this game to kill spellcasters once you have Antimagic Field (which was raised to 8th level), especially full casters like Simbul can be easily brought down. Problem is Laeral has some martial abilities, too.
They should know, so I'm actually quite curious what they are going to do to defeat her when they actually decide to do this and don't get cold feet. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11808 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2016 : 13:09:28
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Leira? Don't see the connection there - unless you just saying be tricky.
Learal is the sister who goes all the places she shouldn't and walks out again relatively unscathed. Skullport is a hobby. I can't think of anywhere she'd be in so much danger that she would not already know about - the same goes for people she shouldn't attack.
And even if that happens, all she has to do is call her sisters, which she doesn't even need a spell to do. And I still have not even brought open use of the silver fire into the discussion. Conjure up all those moments in the novels of this or that chosen blasting someone you thought was badass to dust and you'll get my point. What are the odds that a group of 20-100 year old adventurers are going to discover some bit of information that has eluded her for several centuries, and master it enough to kill off the most powerful woman on the sword coast.
If you, as a DM, play her with even half the intelligence she is meant to have it should be damn near impossible to trick her to death. I compare this to the "lets go kill the tarrasque," or "great wyrm slaying rampage" plot line. Unless the DM lets them and plays the objective improperly, they just will not be able to.
Yeah, just my standard schtick, because I was happy to see her listed as returned. Leira obviously was never dead and was tricking everyone, especially Cyric... and anyone who is anyone knew it.... and those who deny it were obviously taken in (and those who say they knew it are just posers because they don't know how J/K). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11808 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2016 : 13:17:08
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quote:
Originally posted by sw1989
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Leira? Don't see the connection there - unless you just saying be tricky.
Learal is the sister who goes all the places she shouldn't and walks out again relatively unscathed. Skullport is a hobby. I can't think of anywhere she'd be in so much danger that she would not already know about - the same goes for people she shouldn't attack.
And even if that happens, all she has to do is call her sisters, which she doesn't even need a spell to do. And I still have not even brought open use of the silver fire into the discussion. Conjure up all those moments in the novels of this or that chosen blasting someone you thought was badass to dust and you'll get my point. What are the odds that a group of 20-100 year old adventurers are going to discover some bit of information that has eluded her for several centuries, and master it enough to kill off the most powerful woman on the sword coast.
If you, as a DM, play her with even half the intelligence she is meant to have it should be damn near impossible to trick her to death. I compare this to the "lets go kill the tarrasque," or "great wyrm slaying rampage" plot line. Unless the DM lets them and plays the objective improperly, they just will not be able to.
As mentioned above, I intend to treat a fight against Laeral as an unbeatable bonus boss agianst whom you "die for the mistake of having picked a fight with them".
But case in point, it is surprisingly easy in this game to kill spellcasters once you have Antimagic Field (which was raised to 8th level), especially full casters like Simbul can be easily brought down. Problem is Laeral has some martial abilities, too.
They should know, so I'm actually quite curious what they are going to do to defeat her when they actually decide to do this and don't get cold feet.
Bear in mind with anti-magic field, in some older versions there was a feat called initiate of Mystra that enabled one to cast within such fields and I believe that silver fire would also work in such. That all being said though, you're correct with the current rules as written.... dead magic areas that someone might somehow be forced into also might be a problem. Do beholders still have their anti-magic central eye? If so, much danger there.
Just to note, along those lines for 3.5 I had written up some prestige classes to try and work around this issue. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Korginard
Learned Scribe
USA
126 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2016 : 15:11:41
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I had to think about the situation with Laeral and the Harpers. Your mention of her break from the harpers is valid, but it seems to me that in Death Masks the Harpers have no problem working with her. It would seem that they have either moved on or forgiven her for that, OR they are willing to set it aside for the good of all.
On the question of how the folks of Waterdeep would react to an end to the Masked Lords.
The common folk of the city are going to go on living their lives as best they can regardless. The people who will make a difference in this scenario are the Nobles, Wealthy folk wanting to be Nobles, Guild Masters, plus the Zhents, Xanathar, and any other guilds and power players who seek to take advantage. These groups are already at war behind the scenes, the government is what keeps things in the shadows. The loss of that government would probably lead to the kind of open war in the streets that the Masked Lord system was created to stop.
So here is the question, if someone could somehow bring down the entire system of Lords in Waterdeep, how would they go about seizing control of the chaos and infighting that would result?
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2016 : 16:32:24
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yeah, just my standard schtick, because I was happy to see her listed as returned. Leira obviously was never dead and was tricking everyone, especially Cyric... and anyone who is anyone knew it.... and those who deny it were obviously taken in (and those who say they knew it are just posers because they don't know how J/K).
I too, was always one who argued she was alive. But I don't think we should turn this topic into yet another such discussion :) Wooly might get his fur all ruffled. |
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sw1989
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2016 : 18:20:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Korginard
I had to think about the situation with Laeral and the Harpers. Your mention of her break from the harpers is valid, but it seems to me that in Death Masks the Harpers have no problem working with her. It would seem that they have either moved on or forgiven her for that, OR they are willing to set it aside for the good of all.
On the question of how the folks of Waterdeep would react to an end to the Masked Lords.
The common folk of the city are going to go on living their lives as best they can regardless. The people who will make a difference in this scenario are the Nobles, Wealthy folk wanting to be Nobles, Guild Masters, plus the Zhents, Xanathar, and any other guilds and power players who seek to take advantage. These groups are already at war behind the scenes, the government is what keeps things in the shadows. The loss of that government would probably lead to the kind of open war in the streets that the Masked Lord system was created to stop.
So here is the question, if someone could somehow bring down the entire system of Lords in Waterdeep, how would they go about seizing control of the chaos and infighting that would result?
Hello Korginard,
thank you for the reply.
To be honest, I have no idea with what they want to replace the Masked Lord system after they tore it down. Assuming they manage to pit the populace against the Lords, tear it down and kill Laeral and paint her as the leader of a corrupt system that dealt in drug trade and murder, as I know them, they will probably first try to compel Malakuth and the people he leads to make a gras at power and try to enlist the help from various "newcomers" like the Churches of Mystra and Tyr and the Harpers, possibly the Moonstars and the Lord's Alliance and try to pit them against the various groups you listed. Please be aware this is very lengthy and while I wrote "as I know them" this is actually what I would suggest, though I'm quite confident hat they will play in a manner that can be at least compromised with mine.
I used the word newcomer because all these groups' membership were mostly based on humans and thus the original ones are mostly dead during their nearly century long absence and current humans have lived and dies their lives without them for about four generations and it worked more or less well and so these groups have a need of showing that they are needed and useful and most importantly not corrupt and believable. Of course the Lords' Alliance is an exception, they are the one durable institution here.
Convincing them to fight against criminals as the Xanathar or the guilds who are already viewed as borderline mafia is probably easy.
Nobles and the Chosen mentioned above by Wooly Rupert requires persuasion but if these groups try to make themselves powerful (Nobles) or take revenge (Chosen) than the above groups are obliged to fight them, if they want to have a chance to be recognized as worthy.
All groups can't afford to fight representatives of said corrupt system who have (re-)gained their privileges based on whom they were born to and these formerly impoverished people must have gained their new money from somewhere (given that nobles in the realms as a general rule are depicted as institutionalized bandits, with few exception, and the money source probably land was given to them without recompensation or payment on the nobles' side mentioned in the SWAC).
When it comes to the Chosen, these people are powerful. But when they go o revenge, and my group has managed to sway public opinion, they will be vigilantes bent to avenge a corrupt leader in everyone's eyes, in other criminals. The Church of Tyr will be obliged to fight them. For the Harpers and Moonstars this will be truly problematic because if they don't fight the Chosen, their oath to promote freedom from oppression forces them to fight the Chosen, because if they do nothing, then their oath is worthless for not protecting those taking out corrupt systems and if they side with the Chosen things are worse, they'd be the Chosen's private army of spies and assasins in everyone's eyes and would give every oppressor on Toril a reason to persecute them even more but with public opinion on their side, who wants to support henchman of overpowered vigilantes after all. This is ewspecially for the Moonstars who are directly related to Laeral have to show that they take their ideals serious.
As perverse as it does sound, the church of Mystra is even more in danger of being painted as a private army for the Chosen and not promotors of magic. For most human mages, magic was THE power without the need for approval by a god. This did change with Mystra's, q being who has the ability to exclude people from magic, ascension. This was certainly not a funny thought for mages who had pride in being independent and not needing to "beg for spells" and now have to confine themselves in rules set top down. The Church of Mystra has to show their worth by not causing problems and actively opposing people who want to avenge one of their Chosen who turned out to head a corrupt system.
The one group which will probably be purely constructive are the Lords' Alliance. This group wants order and if they have the choice between reinstitution of an unpopular system, which was iintransparent and thus more out of their control than others, and creating a new one in which creation they can take an influence on. They will probably take the latter.
This here is how I would go and I think the others' track of thoughts are more or less similar. But honestly the scale is so big that I won't be the DM of the follow up campaign "Create institutions in Waterdeep". While I wrote here what I think what will happen, there is very little concrete and also I'm not clear whether this in character.
I apologize for the lengthiness and thank you for reading so far |
Edited by - sw1989 on 08 Jul 2016 18:59:58 |
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sw1989
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2016 : 18:46:36
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by sw1989
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Leira? Don't see the connection there - unless you just saying be tricky.
Learal is the sister who goes all the places she shouldn't and walks out again relatively unscathed. Skullport is a hobby. I can't think of anywhere she'd be in so much danger that she would not already know about - the same goes for people she shouldn't attack.
And even if that happens, all she has to do is call her sisters, which she doesn't even need a spell to do. And I still have not even brought open use of the silver fire into the discussion. Conjure up all those moments in the novels of this or that chosen blasting someone you thought was badass to dust and you'll get my point. What are the odds that a group of 20-100 year old adventurers are going to discover some bit of information that has eluded her for several centuries, and master it enough to kill off the most powerful woman on the sword coast.
If you, as a DM, play her with even half the intelligence she is meant to have it should be damn near impossible to trick her to death. I compare this to the "lets go kill the tarrasque," or "great wyrm slaying rampage" plot line. Unless the DM lets them and plays the objective improperly, they just will not be able to.
As mentioned above, I intend to treat a fight against Laeral as an unbeatable bonus boss agianst whom you "die for the mistake of having picked a fight with them".
But case in point, it is surprisingly easy in this game to kill spellcasters once you have Antimagic Field (which was raised to 8th level), especially full casters like Simbul can be easily brought down. Problem is Laeral has some martial abilities, too.
They should know, so I'm actually quite curious what they are going to do to defeat her when they actually decide to do this and don't get cold feet.
Bear in mind with anti-magic field, in some older versions there was a feat called initiate of Mystra that enabled one to cast within such fields and I believe that silver fire would also work in such. That all being said though, you're correct with the current rules as written.... dead magic areas that someone might somehow be forced into also might be a problem. Do beholders still have their anti-magic central eye? If so, much danger there.
Just to note, along those lines for 3.5 I had written up some prestige classes to try and work around this issue.
I talked about this in university today, the friend told me that he would move an Arcane Gate through a sleeping Laeral make her drop from high point and take high falling damge and then spill a Back of Holding worth of Alchemical Fire on her for damage that can't be counterspelled. Feasibility aside I will equip probably equip her with a Ring of Feather Falling, despite knowing that it takes an attunement slot.
About Antimagic Field, in 5e the spell is an 8th level spell so in this campaign in which I don't intend to allow levels higher than 13 (they are currently 6-8), the spell is only accessible to them via spell scroll. And because Laeral has some martial powers, I actually don't fear Antimagic Field so much because they have to get an outside source that they have to convince turning on the Open Lord, which is not easy in itself.
About the initiate feat, I don't remember that particular initiate feat but initiate feats were only accessible to divine casters so Laeral couldn't have access to it in 3.5e and giving her more powers from Mystra herself has the danger of putting her in the position of someone who has the need to be looked after and this is a bit dangerous because it's already too easy to accuse her and her sisters of having gained power and immortality on a silver plate at birth. |
Edited by - sw1989 on 08 Jul 2016 18:48:07 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11808 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2016 : 02:13:36
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quote:
Originally posted by sw1989
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by sw1989
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Leira? Don't see the connection there - unless you just saying be tricky.
Learal is the sister who goes all the places she shouldn't and walks out again relatively unscathed. Skullport is a hobby. I can't think of anywhere she'd be in so much danger that she would not already know about - the same goes for people she shouldn't attack.
And even if that happens, all she has to do is call her sisters, which she doesn't even need a spell to do. And I still have not even brought open use of the silver fire into the discussion. Conjure up all those moments in the novels of this or that chosen blasting someone you thought was badass to dust and you'll get my point. What are the odds that a group of 20-100 year old adventurers are going to discover some bit of information that has eluded her for several centuries, and master it enough to kill off the most powerful woman on the sword coast.
If you, as a DM, play her with even half the intelligence she is meant to have it should be damn near impossible to trick her to death. I compare this to the "lets go kill the tarrasque," or "great wyrm slaying rampage" plot line. Unless the DM lets them and plays the objective improperly, they just will not be able to.
As mentioned above, I intend to treat a fight against Laeral as an unbeatable bonus boss agianst whom you "die for the mistake of having picked a fight with them".
But case in point, it is surprisingly easy in this game to kill spellcasters once you have Antimagic Field (which was raised to 8th level), especially full casters like Simbul can be easily brought down. Problem is Laeral has some martial abilities, too.
They should know, so I'm actually quite curious what they are going to do to defeat her when they actually decide to do this and don't get cold feet.
Bear in mind with anti-magic field, in some older versions there was a feat called initiate of Mystra that enabled one to cast within such fields and I believe that silver fire would also work in such. That all being said though, you're correct with the current rules as written.... dead magic areas that someone might somehow be forced into also might be a problem. Do beholders still have their anti-magic central eye? If so, much danger there.
Just to note, along those lines for 3.5 I had written up some prestige classes to try and work around this issue.
I talked about this in university today, the friend told me that he would move an Arcane Gate through a sleeping Laeral make her drop from high point and take high falling damge and then spill a Back of Holding worth of Alchemical Fire on her for damage that can't be counterspelled. Feasibility aside I will equip probably equip her with a Ring of Feather Falling, despite knowing that it takes an attunement slot.
About Antimagic Field, in 5e the spell is an 8th level spell so in this campaign in which I don't intend to allow levels higher than 13 (they are currently 6-8), the spell is only accessible to them via spell scroll. And because Laeral has some martial powers, I actually don't fear Antimagic Field so much because they have to get an outside source that they have to convince turning on the Open Lord, which is not easy in itself.
About the initiate feat, I don't remember that particular initiate feat but initiate feats were only accessible to divine casters so Laeral couldn't have access to it in 3.5e and giving her more powers from Mystra herself has the danger of putting her in the position of someone who has the need to be looked after and this is a bit dangerous because it's already too easy to accuse her and her sisters of having gained power and immortality on a silver plate at birth.
Having a chosen of Mystra be disallowed from taking an initiate of Mystra feat would seem silly. Having a chosen of any god being disallowed from choosing any initiate feat would seem silly. That being said, I only mention it to point out that there were options in other versions that don't exist in 5e (much to my sadness, 5e is not a system for spell dueling.... its missing a level of intricacy that was in 3.5... but it does have some improvements like the rituals, the attunement of items, and it has a better memorization system... which at high levels really sucks as you have very few spells on hand... there really needs to be items which improve the number of spells you can have memorized.... which again goes back to lack of spell dueling). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2016 : 04:55:55
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quote:
Originally posted by sw1989
I talked about this in university today, the friend told me that he would move an Arcane Gate through a sleeping Laeral make her drop from high point and take high falling damge and then spill a Back of Holding worth of Alchemical Fire on her for damage that can't be counterspelled. Feasibility aside I will equip probably equip her with a Ring of Feather Falling, despite knowing that it takes an attunement slot.
The Chosen of Mystra don't need to sleep. |
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sw1989
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2016 : 07:33:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The Chosen of Mystra don't need to sleep.
You're right. Thank you for the information. |
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sw1989
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2016 : 10:09:39
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by sw1989
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by sw1989
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Leira? Don't see the connection there - unless you just saying be tricky.
Learal is the sister who goes all the places she shouldn't and walks out again relatively unscathed. Skullport is a hobby. I can't think of anywhere she'd be in so much danger that she would not already know about - the same goes for people she shouldn't attack.
And even if that happens, all she has to do is call her sisters, which she doesn't even need a spell to do. And I still have not even brought open use of the silver fire into the discussion. Conjure up all those moments in the novels of this or that chosen blasting someone you thought was badass to dust and you'll get my point. What are the odds that a group of 20-100 year old adventurers are going to discover some bit of information that has eluded her for several centuries, and master it enough to kill off the most powerful woman on the sword coast.
If you, as a DM, play her with even half the intelligence she is meant to have it should be damn near impossible to trick her to death. I compare this to the "lets go kill the tarrasque," or "great wyrm slaying rampage" plot line. Unless the DM lets them and plays the objective improperly, they just will not be able to.
As mentioned above, I intend to treat a fight against Laeral as an unbeatable bonus boss agianst whom you "die for the mistake of having picked a fight with them".
But case in point, it is surprisingly easy in this game to kill spellcasters once you have Antimagic Field (which was raised to 8th level), especially full casters like Simbul can be easily brought down. Problem is Laeral has some martial abilities, too.
They should know, so I'm actually quite curious what they are going to do to defeat her when they actually decide to do this and don't get cold feet.
Bear in mind with anti-magic field, in some older versions there was a feat called initiate of Mystra that enabled one to cast within such fields and I believe that silver fire would also work in such. That all being said though, you're correct with the current rules as written.... dead magic areas that someone might somehow be forced into also might be a problem. Do beholders still have their anti-magic central eye? If so, much danger there.
Just to note, along those lines for 3.5 I had written up some prestige classes to try and work around this issue.
I talked about this in university today, the friend told me that he would move an Arcane Gate through a sleeping Laeral make her drop from high point and take high falling damge and then spill a Back of Holding worth of Alchemical Fire on her for damage that can't be counterspelled. Feasibility aside I will equip probably equip her with a Ring of Feather Falling, despite knowing that it takes an attunement slot.
About Antimagic Field, in 5e the spell is an 8th level spell so in this campaign in which I don't intend to allow levels higher than 13 (they are currently 6-8), the spell is only accessible to them via spell scroll. And because Laeral has some martial powers, I actually don't fear Antimagic Field so much because they have to get an outside source that they have to convince turning on the Open Lord, which is not easy in itself.
About the initiate feat, I don't remember that particular initiate feat but initiate feats were only accessible to divine casters so Laeral couldn't have access to it in 3.5e and giving her more powers from Mystra herself has the danger of putting her in the position of someone who has the need to be looked after and this is a bit dangerous because it's already too easy to accuse her and her sisters of having gained power and immortality on a silver plate at birth.
Having a chosen of Mystra be disallowed from taking an initiate of Mystra feat would seem silly. Having a chosen of any god being disallowed from choosing any initiate feat would seem silly. That being said, I only mention it to point out that there were options in other versions that don't exist in 5e (much to my sadness, 5e is not a system for spell dueling.... its missing a level of intricacy that was in 3.5... but it does have some improvements like the rituals, the attunement of items, and it has a better memorization system... which at high levels really sucks as you have very few spells on hand... there really needs to be items which improve the number of spells you can have memorized.... which again goes back to lack of spell dueling).
Admittedly, you have a point regarding allowing initiate feats there. Though I still do fear that gaining overtly much power from the patron deity as special treatment makes a Chosen look not independent enough to be taken seriously.
About the lack of dueling, how about tweaking the Mageduel rules from 3e? Allowing to let mages fight each other without killing each other and allowing to cast Counterspell for free without losing a spell slot every let us say 1d4 rounds to put a degree of strategy like "should I use the bonus Counterspell now? Should I gamble on the opponent not knowing whether I have Counterspell as a general spell known?" Would that allow a satifactory non lethal spell duel?
The lack of number of spells known can for example be compensated by ruling that items like spell scrolls can only be used once each during the duel but aren't used up for real, so they can be used after the duel. Thus allowing a non lethal mock battle between spellcasters.
Admittedly these rules are made as I wrote this post so they probably have tons of holes.
But how about making such rules?
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11808 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2016 : 17:20:50
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| nah, by spell dueling, I mean actual strategy involving the intricacies of spells. Too many things are just out and out immune to vast types of spells, or there's a lack of a number of metamagic stratagems that were available that involved planning. Throwing out random "I counter it" doesn't feel to me like spell strategy. Also, when I say spell duel, I don't mean formal dueling. I mean the literal act of a wizard setting up their daily wards for days when they aren't going into a dungeon and expect only to go to the market, such that they are still prepared for dangers that show up unexpectedly. I also don't mean non-lethal... I definitely mean lethal. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Waterdeep without Masked Lords
