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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
 Posted - 28 May 2016 : 14:06:23
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What race/region do you think would make for the best imitation of Lovecraft's Shadow over Innsmouth? I'm playing with the idea of surprising my players.
Here are my thoughts...
1. The Kuo-Toa look the most like the Deep Ones, but I don't know if they are quite Cthulu-esque enough...
2. The Shalarin in the Sea of Corynactis already worship Dagon, but geographically they aren't close enough to mainland Faerun to allow for an Innsmouth type town (maybe set it in Maztica?)
How could I adapt the Innsmouth look then to the town's inhabitants? Interbreeding doesn't really seem to be an option. (should I use the magical experimentation handwave?)
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2016 : 20:43:08
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Demons and fiends are often malformed, terrifying, and highly variable in appearance.
I'm not personally familiar with Lovecraft's Shadow over Innsmouth, but results from a quick google image search look to me more like half-preserved half-decayed worm-ridden undead than like tentacle-faced aquatic grotesqueries. Zombies, ghasts, ghouls, mummies, or perhaps some little liches might be suitable substitutions - especially if they are variant forms derived from decidedly non-human creatures. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1152 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2016 : 06:16:36
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Don't know if you're aware of this but Pathfinder released stats for actual Deep Ones. Paizo also differentiates between the demon prince Dagon and Father Dagon, servant of Cthulhu.
D&D and Pathfinder have both released ripoffs of Shadows over Innsmouth. The Paizo one is bigger but it uses Skum instead of deep ones (before they wrote up deep ones, they established Skum as the monsters you should use instead of them) and also throws in some mi-go and a color out of space. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2016 : 15:38:30
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Well, Kuo-Toa pretty much are intended to be the D&D version of Deep Ones. Their deity Blibdoolpoolp is basically a more crustacean Mother Hydra, and also worship the Demon Lord Dagon. D&D demon lord Dagon seems a blend of Father Dagon, and Cthulhu himself both in design and personality.
Curiously some Cthulhu writers theorize Father Dagon might an avatar of sorts of Cthulhu, especially that Lovecraft based partly the trinity of Cthulhu, Father Dagon, and Mother Hydra, on the Holy Trinity. Cthulhu is God the Father, Dagon is the Son of God, and Hydra is the Holy Spirit.
Batrachi might also be interesting to use, as they created Kuo-Toa, or are ancestors of them. There are also clues Batrachi also worshipped Dagon aside from Ramenos, as one of Batrachi temples, the one under the Grandfather Tree contains a portal to Dagon's Realm in the Abyss.
http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/mc/mc20011031a
Batrachi also are said to have gated into the Realms horrors from Far Realm most notably Aboleths.
Surviving Batrachi might have become the first Slaad, and also might have created the Mind Flayers. To elaborate, Batrachi were originally sentinent giant octopi, before they used a ritual to transform into a form akin to Deep Ones or Bullywugs. Batrachi created Doppelgangers and Greater Doppelgangers. Greater Doppelgangers have several abilities similar to mind flayers/illithids and work sometimes with them(the Unseen). So my theory, going with the theory Mind Flayers come from the future, the Greater Doppelganger might at least in part be ancestors of the Mind Flayers. Another possibility is that Mind Flayers are another creation of Batrachi, especially that Batrachi were apparently active on many worlds. And created Doppelgangers in their image, as the Dead Three encountered Haask - a Doppelganger Batrachi, who summoned Hargut, a Far Realm horror.
As one of the first presented Greater Doppelgangers, specifically of the Unseen, Hlaavin their leader, turned out to be a Half-Ilithid, it's possible hybridization with Ilithids/Mind Flayers, makes normal doppelgangers into the greater sort, might further be an implication of a possible relation between Batrachi, Doppelgangers, and Ilithids.
The fact at least some Batrachi have abilities of Doppelgangers might be useful to you.
The Batrachi Empires spread as far south as Lopango, and Nadezhda was an empire of batrachi doppelgangers in modern-day Maztica.
[EDIT]
Also, using the Batrachi presence North, one could tie Batrachi Doppelgangers with Rocklanders, mentioned way back in Savage Frontier. Purple Rocks may be Innsmouth, and I think it even was intended to be the Realms version of it. Instead of Deep Ones and Hybrids, the village may be a front for Batrachi Doppelganger activity. Or people may still be Batrachi-Doppelganger Hybrids with humans, as Doppelganger in some versions of D&D(ie Dread Doppelgangers from Ravenloft), can have their child from every uninion be doppelgangers. So here is the description of Rocklanders, right from Savage Frontier:
"ROCKLANDERS The people of the
Purple Rocks were once a Gundarlun
colony. There are no aged here and no
children. The skins of all the people are
unusually scarred and weathered. For
Northmen, the Rocklanders are unusually
warm and friendly, though their
smiles may seem fake. They appear to
worship the usual Northman deities,
but their graven images of those gods
all show many, tentacle-like arms. Their
long ships favor squid-like figure heads." |
Edited by - Baltas on 29 May 2016 19:50:54 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2016 : 20:48:06
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Yeah, but I think Slarkrethel could be retconned/explained as being of Batrachi descent(the original form of Batrachi, were giant Octopi) and Ascarle was suggested to have been inhabited before Sea Eves, by "Fish People", and possibly originally founded by them. This Fish People could be Batrachi. Slarkrethel was inspired after all, inspired by legends of his ancestors' past. This ancestors, could be made into Batrachi. Especially that as shapeshifter, they may quite probably had the "Breed with allmost anything" ability).
Slarkrethel could have experimented to have Batrachi revived in some way, possibly turning the population of Purple Rocks into Batrachi-Human hybrids.
Slarkrethel is the chosen of Umberlee, but this could spinned in various ways. Umberlee has her plane in the Abyss in various version of canon, including 5e, so maybe she works with Dagon, and Slarkrethel is a dual chosen.
Slarkrethel, Dagon, and Umberlee could be worshipped as a stand in for the Cthulhu, Dagon and Hydra Trinity, with Dagon(ironically) being Cthulhu here, Slarkrethel Father Dagon, and Umberlee Mother Hydra(Slarkrethel is Umberlee's consort after all).
Or Slarkrethel may have just betrayed Umberlee for Dagon, or served Dagon more all along(as Dagon was worshipped by his ancestors), only using Umberlee.
Still, even if not using Purple Rocks, I think Batrachi could be very well used for a Shadow over Innsmouth campaign in the Realms. |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2016 : 00:32:07
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| I would suggest a simple fishing village on Swordcoast that worship a kraken who lives nearby and using some Kuo-toa's as slaves. People there might be normal looking by day but will try to sacrifice characters at night at local inn. This might creep your players enough and they might possibly find out their hidden temple to this kraken "god". If they linger there the Kuo-Toa's will be sent to investigate and confront them. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2016 : 07:40:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
What race/region do you think would make for the best imitation of Lovecraft's Shadow over Innsmouth? I'm playing with the idea of surprising my players.
Here are my thoughts...
1. The Kuo-Toa look the most like the Deep Ones, but I don't know if they are quite Cthulu-esque enough...
2. The Shalarin in the Sea of Corynactis already worship Dagon, but geographically they aren't close enough to mainland Faerun to allow for an Innsmouth type town (maybe set it in Maztica?)
How could I adapt the Innsmouth look then to the town's inhabitants? Interbreeding doesn't really seem to be an option. (should I use the magical experimentation handwave?)
Two words: Undersea Illithids.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2016 : 08:09:34
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Blibdolpoolp is actually a rather interesting deity; to her own servitor creatures, she's practically a Great Old One and utterly alien.
I mean, look at the average kuo-toa, and then look at Blibdolpoolp; about the only thing that remotely connects her to the kuo-toa is her lobster head. To the kuo-toa, she's about as alien as Cthulhu or Dagon or Shub-Niggurath would be to a human being. |
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Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2016 : 10:12:10
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| There was made a d20 Call of cthulhu rpg book, who got what you need to use D&D characters in CoC, or using CoC as an addon for D&D. |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2016 : 12:24:58
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Blibdolpoolp is actually a rather interesting deity; to her own servitor creatures, she's practically a Great Old One and utterly alien.
I mean, look at the average kuo-toa, and then look at Blibdolpoolp; about the only thing that remotely connects her to the kuo-toa is her lobster head. To the kuo-toa, she's about as alien as Cthulhu or Dagon or Shub-Niggurath would be to a human being.
Yup she is, Blibdoolpoolp even has Insanity in her portfolio, and her gaze at closer range, drives the lookers mad. I wonder if she was maybe one of the Great School of Sea deities, Batrachi once worshipped alongside Ramenos(Ramenos himself, curiously, appears to be inspired by the Great Old One Tsathoggua...)It's implied many of the deities of Batrachi's creations/descendants, originated among that pantheon(compare to Sarrukh and their deities being worshipped by their creations and descendants), so seeing batrachi created kou-toa, it's possible. I didn't suggest Blibdoolpoolp, only Dagon, as the Obyrith Lord allready has some canon connections to Batrachi, and is based and named after the God of Deep Ones.
Although Blibdoolpoolp might be a better deity to use, sheeing how underused she is, despite being pretty interesting. And her lobster head, is still very alien to Kou-Toa, as fish are closeer related to humans, than crusteceans. Then again, kou-toa ancetrors/creators, Batrachi started as out as inverbrates(giant octopi), so they may be closer related to Crustacean than mammals in the Realms. |
Edited by - Baltas on 30 May 2016 12:55:09 |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2016 : 13:25:02
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| In my realms I have Batrachi pantheon (Great School) made of Ramenos (bullivugs), Umberlee (krakens), Sekolah (sahuagin), Blibdoolpoolp (kuo-toa), Ilesere (Mind Flyers), Great Mother (beholders), Ghaunadaur (slimes), Eadro (merfolk, locatah) |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2016 : 15:02:26
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| Krakens already have a racial god - Panzuriel. Umberlee is more associated with natural disasters of the waters than to aquatic creatures; if I had to thematically tie her to anything it would shark monsters, like Pathfinder's cetus. |
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Green Giant
Seeker
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2016 : 15:49:18
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You can also check Dragon Magazine #300 - "The Minions of Darkness." Monster cultist prestige classes.
Especially, Deep Thralls (worshippers of krakens) and Shoal Servants (worshippers of kuo-toas). |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2016 : 16:05:27
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Krakens already have a racial god - Panzuriel. Umberlee is more associated with natural disasters of the waters than to aquatic creatures; if I had to thematically tie her to anything it would shark monsters, like Pathfinder's cetus.
Actually, in the Realms, according to Faiths and Pantheons pagw 220 Panzuriel is merelly an alias of Umberlee. This suggests Umberlee destroyed Panzuriel's Realms aspect, or subsumed/absorbed Panzuriel in the Realms. |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2016 : 16:09:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Krakens already have a racial god - Panzuriel. Umberlee is more associated with natural disasters of the waters than to aquatic creatures; if I had to thematically tie her to anything it would shark monsters, like Pathfinder's cetus.
Actually, in the Realms, according to Faiths and Pantheons pagw 220 Panzuriel is merelly an alias of Umberlee. This suggests Umberlee destroyed Panzuriel's Realms aspect, or subsumed/absorbed Panzuriel in the Realms.
Also there is Sekolah for shark monsters already... and there are hints that she is originaly kraken diety |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2016 : 16:16:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Krakens already have a racial god - Panzuriel. Umberlee is more associated with natural disasters of the waters than to aquatic creatures; if I had to thematically tie her to anything it would shark monsters, like Pathfinder's cetus.
Actually, in the Realms, according to Faiths and Pantheons pagw 220 Panzuriel is merelly an alias of Umberlee. This suggests Umberlee destroyed Panzuriel's Realms aspect, or subsumed/absorbed Panzuriel in the Realms.
That's a bit difficult to believe; Panzuriel is an Intermediate Power while Umberlee's only a lesser deity.
I'd personally suggest that while Umberlee is heavily worshipped, Panzuriel's one of those old gods revered by ancient sea monsters. He's more interested in having his revenge on Deep Sashelas, while Umberlee's more a nature god. Mostly, I see Panzuriel as one of those really creepy, monstrous gods; the type that has Umberlee teaming up with Valkur and DS to restrain. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2016 : 20:37:08
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Aquatic illithids would get along rather poorly with standard illithids, each viewing the other as a monstrous aberration which needs to be destroyed on sight.
But it does seem plausible, illithids could procreate through host creatures like kua-tua and sehuagin and the aquatic peoples of Seros easily enough. A large mutant four-armed sehuagin (armed with a 4h-sword or two 2h-swords?) is very bad news, one turned into an illithid is a nightmare. Aquatic giths exist, so why not aquatic illithids? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2016 : 21:27:58
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Actually, in the Realms, according to Faiths and Pantheons pagw 220 Panzuriel is merelly an alias of Umberlee. This suggests Umberlee destroyed Panzuriel's Realms aspect, or subsumed/absorbed Panzuriel in the Realms.
That's a bit difficult to believe; Panzuriel is an Intermediate Power while Umberlee's only a lesser deity.
I'd personally suggest that while Umberlee is heavily worshipped, Panzuriel's one of those old gods revered by ancient sea monsters. He's more interested in having his revenge on Deep Sashelas, while Umberlee's more a nature god. Mostly, I see Panzuriel as one of those really creepy, monstrous gods; the type that has Umberlee teaming up with Valkur and DS to restrain.
Well, possibly, although the divine power levels, might not be the same in the Realms, as outside them. Mielikki and Loviatar were/are demigods outside the Realms, and Tyr is a Greater Power in the Realms, but Intermediate or Greater outside of them. And on the other hand, outside the Realms Bast was a lessser goddess, but now, even after merging with Felidae and Zandilar the Dancer, is a demigoddess, persumably due to her specific situation, and her worship being partially absorbed into that of Shar.
Umberlee's companion, Auril, was a Intermediate Goddess outside the Realms as the Queen of Air and Darkness, but in the Realms, was originally a lesser goddess, or even demigoddess(although to be fair, even in 1e, it was said Auril was significantly drained from power by Talos, if I remember right), only becoming again a Intermediate Deity in 4e.
Deep Sashelas is also a classic enemy of Umberlee in the Realms(specifically alied with Valkur against her), possibly since Araushnee's/Lolth war against Corellon, as at least Auril and Malar sided with Araushnee, and the trio(Auril, Umberlee and Malar) seem to be tied together. I think it's a possibilty Umberlee was an Saea Archfey or Kraken Primal Spirit, before becoming a deity.
It's possible Panzuriel corrupted Umberlee when she was a SeaArchfey or Kraken/Cephalopod(or just Sea) Primal Spirit, but Umberlee could turn against him later, helping to imprison him.
A possiblity I overlooked, it's possible Umberlee impersonates Panzuriel, like Mulhorand Set impersonates Sseth.
Still, in the Realms, it seems Umberlee is connected to Krakens, like Malar and Selune substitute good and evil lycantrope deities.
But opposed to them, Panzuriel might waiting to resurface... |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2016 : 03:27:27
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Some awesome ideas and info here. Batrachi, Panzuriel, Umberlee...
I wonder which of those had the most to do with the krakentua. If anything could give you the feel of Cthulhu, it would be one of those things.
I honestly don't know what the answer is in the end, but a Serpent Kindoms-esque book about the batrachi could have helped a lot.
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Follow the Maztica (Aztec/Maya) and Anchorome (Indigenous North America) Campaigns on DMsGuild!
The Maztica Campaign
The Anchorome Campaign |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2016 : 04:02:23
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| Prior to 4e, Auril and the Queen of Air and Darkness were entirely separate beings. The Queen was corrupted by the Black Diamond and is Titania's sister, Auril seems to be either a friend or daughter of Loki (they share the same Outer Planar realm). |
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe
USA
483 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2016 : 06:04:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
What race/region do you think would make for the best imitation of Lovecraft's Shadow over Innsmouth? I'm playing with the idea of surprising my players.
Some really interesting replies in this thread, let's see if I can add something of worth:
I'd go with a Deepspawn, mainly because it's one of my favorite D&D monsters. Either it lives in a dry cavern complex under the ocean floor or it's an aquatic adapted mutant Deepspawn. By consuming both human and kuo-toan genetic material, it is able to mix and match, creating hybrid creatures that are neither one nor the other, but rather a bit of both. So they can appear human for the most part (just as some mutant sahuagin appear as sea elves) but also have some fishy physiology, and will start to degrade/distress if left out of water for too prolonged a period of time. It completely stocks "town X" with its children, who try to emulate normal human behavior and draw more food/wealth into the town that will be curried down to the Deepspawn periodically.
If I knew how to post a picture on this forum I would totally include a Deepspawn pic right now. |
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe
USA
483 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2016 : 06:06:52
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quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
What race/region do you think would make for the best imitation of Lovecraft's Shadow over Innsmouth? I'm playing with the idea of surprising my players.
Some really interesting replies in this thread, let's see if I can add something of worth:
I'd go with a Deepspawn, mainly because it's one of my favorite D&D monsters, but also because it offers a great deal of variable game play based on what the DM wants to do with it. Either it lives in a dry cavern complex under the ocean floor or it's some kind of aquatic adapted, mutant Deepspawn. By consuming both human and kuo-toan genetic material, it is able to mix and match, creating hybrid creatures that are neither one nor the other, but rather a bit of both. So they can appear human for the most part (just as some mutant sahuagin appear as sea elves) but also have some fishy physiology, and will start to degrade/distress if left out of water for too prolonged a period of time. It completely stocks "town X" with its children, who try to emulate normal human behavior (and often fail, leading to their creepy "tells" and other weird actions) and draw more food/wealth into the town that will be curried down to the Deepspawn periodically.
If I knew how to post a picture on this forum I would totally include a Deepspawn pic right now.
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2016 : 14:32:46
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Prior to 4e, Auril and the Queen of Air and Darkness were entirely separate beings. The Queen was corrupted by the Black Diamond and is Titania's sister, Auril seems to be either a friend or daughter of Loki (they share the same Outer Planar realm).
Yes, but Auril was said to have been once stronger, before Talos drained her, ever since 1st edition. About Auril from Faiths and Avatars(2E, were she allready became a lesser deity):
quote:
"She has seen much of her personal power eroded by Talos, as a result, the winters ha grown colder in the last decade, to remind northeners who controls the power of cold"
Auril being on Pandemos of Pandemonium, may be more connectd to Talos keeping her under a close watch, as he also had his realm there in 1e and 2e. Curiously though, Auril and the Queen of Air and Darkness both had their Realms in Pandemonium.
Auril's description, and behaviour is also very Fey-like, especially close to descriptions of more malovelent fey, as desceribed in Faiths and Avatars:
quote:
When portrayed, Auril appears similar to her Frostmaiden avatar She is a fickle, vain, and evil creature whose cold divine heart remains
untouched by any hint of true love, noble feeling, or honor. She
often toys with those who offend her, trapping them in snow storms and
then driving them insane by tantalizing them with visions of warmth and
the comforts of home before she freezes them to death. Her eternal beauty
is cold and deadly, the flower of womanhood preserved forever in a slab of
arctic ice#8212;with sensibilities to match the ice.
Evil fey, also very often connected with Frost and Winter, and the very Unseelie Court was connected with Winter in Foklore. It makes me wonder if Auril wasn't intended to some sort of ascended Frost Fey from the begining, although not the Queen of Air and Darkness.
Still, they are quite similar, as the Queen of Air and Darkness was repetedly described as "cold", and draining being of their will and autonomy, exacly like Auril does by driving her victims trapped in snow storms insane by tantalizing them with visions of warmth and
the comforts of home before she freezes them to death.
Auril's Icedawn Avatar is also similar to the Queen of Air and Darkness' avatar, with the Queen's Avatar, seeming like a middle ground between the Frostmaiden Avatar, and Icedawn one:
quote:
Icedawn is a silent, gliding apparition of icy hauteur, an impassive figure in
an ornate crown and hooked, spurred armor of opaque, light blue ice.
And the Queen of Air and Darkness, as described in Monster Mythology:
quote:
The Queen has no corporeal body, but if magically perceived
she appears as a female faerie of terrible, cold beauty, with
bone-white skin, angular features, eyes with a black cornea and
an inner blood-red lens, and a mane of black hair.
Again, this similarities are probably because Auril may be inspired by stories of evil, winter fey, but still, this is why I think the Queen of Air and Darkness and Auril Conflation, was the best 4E one.
And I wonder if Karaken aren't descended from Sea dwelling Batrachi, who stayed in their cephalopod form, like Tako(who are confimed to be descended/created by Batrachi, and according to Brain R. James forum post "the tako ruled over tribes of kuo-toa, locathah, and other species of aquatic batrachi."). As Take live in more temparate waters, kraken could evolve from Batrachi living in colder waters.
This could make Panzuriel Another From the Great School of Sea deities of Batrachi.
Also, in Brain R. James Reign of Dragons, it were also again the Batrachi who gated Krakentua into the Realms...
When we think bout it, Batrachi are responcible for a bulk of Lovecraftian stuff in the Realms, creating. becoming, or summoning them. Aboleths, Kou-Toa, Krakentua, Hargot, maybe even Ilithid... |
Edited by - Baltas on 31 May 2016 14:45:08 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2016 : 14:49:17
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Purple Rocks does sound like a good candidate for a cthulhu esque adventure but the island is portrayed that way because of the Kraken Society that controls much of what happens there.
The Kraken society and followers of Dagon might go hand in hand, so to speak. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2016 : 14:54:50
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Krakens already have a racial god - Panzuriel. Umberlee is more associated with natural disasters of the waters than to aquatic creatures; if I had to thematically tie her to anything it would shark monsters, like Pathfinder's cetus.
Actually, in the Realms, according to Faiths and Pantheons pagw 220 Panzuriel is merelly an alias of Umberlee. This suggests Umberlee destroyed Panzuriel's Realms aspect, or subsumed/absorbed Panzuriel in the Realms.
That's a bit difficult to believe; Panzuriel is an Intermediate Power while Umberlee's only a lesser deity.
I'd personally suggest that while Umberlee is heavily worshipped, Panzuriel's one of those old gods revered by ancient sea monsters. He's more interested in having his revenge on Deep Sashelas, while Umberlee's more a nature god. Mostly, I see Panzuriel as one of those really creepy, monstrous gods; the type that has Umberlee teaming up with Valkur and DS to restrain.
remember, there's power levels outside the realms and power levels in the realms. A deity might have great power in the realms and minor power outside.... or the reverse (great power outside the realms, but within the realmspace crystal sphere they're considered little more than a demi-god). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2016 : 17:54:06
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Actually, in the Realms, according to Faiths and Pantheons pagw 220 Panzuriel is merelly an alias of Umberlee. This suggests Umberlee destroyed Panzuriel's Realms aspect, or subsumed/absorbed Panzuriel in the Realms.
That's a bit difficult to believe; Panzuriel is an Intermediate Power while Umberlee's only a lesser deity.
I'd personally suggest that while Umberlee is heavily worshipped, Panzuriel's one of those old gods revered by ancient sea monsters. He's more interested in having his revenge on Deep Sashelas, while Umberlee's more a nature god. Mostly, I see Panzuriel as one of those really creepy, monstrous gods; the type that has Umberlee teaming up with Valkur and DS to restrain.
remember, there's power levels outside the realms and power levels in the realms. A deity might have great power in the realms and minor power outside.... or the reverse (great power outside the realms, but within the realmspace crystal sphere they're considered little more than a demi-god).
Well, what you think, is more or less what I meant earlier:
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Well, possibly, although the divine power levels, might not be the same in the Realms, as outside them. Mielikki and Loviatar were/are demigods outside the Realms, and Tyr is a Greater Power in the Realms, but Intermediate or Greater outside of them. And on the other hand, outside the Realms Bast was a lessser goddess, but now, even after merging with Felidae and Zandilar the Dancer, is a demigoddess, persumably due to her specific situation, and her worship being partially absorbed into that of Shar.
Umberlee's companion, Auril, was a Intermediate Goddess outside the Realms as the Queen of Air and Darkness, but in the Realms, was originally a lesser goddess, or even demigoddess(although to be fair, even in 1e, it was said Auril was significantly drained from power by Talos, if I remember right), only becoming again a Intermediate Deity in 4e.
Although again, I think now Umberlee may have usurped Panzuriel's worship, via impersonation, similary to Set usurping Sseth's.
Also, here are some of Brain R. James thoughts from an unreleased Batrachi Empires article aparently:
quote:
Here are some brief notes I penned a while back on the batrachi empires. I agree that it would be great to see an article or two on the creator races but WotC these days is more interested in the present than the ancient past.
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Kolophoon, Boitumelo, and Nadezhda, along with Zhoukoudien and Pourounkorokale are all Batrachi Empires. I had briefly mentioned Zhoukoudien in my Candlekeep IV article, but I wanted there to be multiple batrachi nations represented on the map so the names were all pulled out of my head.
Pourounkorokale is the longest lived of the batrachi nations and existed entirely underneath the southern waters of the Black Sea (modern day Shining Sea). From their crystalline cities the wise tako ruled over tribes of kuo-toa, locathah, and other species of aquatic batrachi. Though Pourounkorokale survived the fall of great Batrachi Empires, their race became nearly extinct with the ensuing war against conquering seawurms and the ultimate betrayal by their sahuagin allies. Survivors fled through the Strait of Lopango to new homes in the Sea of Corynactis (west of modern day Maztica).
The domain of Boitumelo was centered on the ancient Narrow Sea (in modern day Anauroch). This realm of loosely confederated nations was peopled by tribes of kappa, sivs, and grippli.
The lands surrounding and beneath the modern day Wizards Reach and Alamber Sea were the domain of the Kolophoon Sovereignty. Here aboleths ruled supreme over their kopru and froghemoth servitors and it is thought that these primordial batrachi opened gates to the Far Realm unleashing the first aberrations upon Abeir-Toril.
The largest of the batrachi surface nations, Zhoukoudien, was ruled by an unnamed amphibian species whose descendants became bullywugs. Their wars against the giants are legendary and it is thought that their misguided actions led to the Tearfall and the ensuing Seven Turn Winter.
Nadezhda was a great forested region (in modern day Maztica) once populated by human tribes which migrated across the Strait of Lopango to flee enslavement by the Yuan-ti of Mhairshaulk. Their respite was short lived, however, as the human tribes were quickly infiltrated and eventually supplanted by batrachi doppelgangers. Nadezhda ultimately fell to Aearee expansion as that race moved into the region.
https://web.archive.org/web/20151102221533/http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/2994836
As Tako seemed to be the supreme aquatic Batrachi, I guess Krakens could be their more malovelent, and cold liking offshoot. One could combine it with Panzuriel, or even Dagon, seeing Batrachi had connection to Dagon.
A Northern Tako/proto-Kraken civilisation, might be also what Slarkrethel could have in mind, when he wanted to bring back Kraken to their former greatness. |
Edited by - Baltas on 31 May 2016 18:00:13 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11827 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2016 : 19:50:16
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I like where you're going with the cataloguing what might be related to the batrachi and what they created. I think that the idea of a "Serpent Kingdoms" type supplement, but for what the Batrachi created, could prove to be a very interesting thing indeed. I venture that Tako, Krakens, bullywugs, dopplegangers, locathah, sivs, grippli, kopru, Slaad, froghemoths, and Kuo-Toa MAY have all come from the Batrachi civilization.
Similarly, the question of the Aearee civilization would be interesting to see some expounding upon. Especially given that we know that reptilian beings with feathers may have had ties to the Aeree. They also created the wyverns. I'd venture that Couatls may have come from the Aearee, and that Maztica may have held a large Aearee culture. Of course, we all believe that aarakocra and kenku came from the Aearee, but what about various winged reptilian races (besides draconic ones like dragonborn). . Raptorans from races of the wild would also fit. Also, more bestial creatures such as giant owls, giant eagles, rocs, etc.... might they have ties to the Aearee? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Realmsian Deep Ones
