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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1231 Posts |
 Posted - 26 May 2016 : 19:39:12
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Is there any speculation or canon material as to the origins of the thri-Kreen on Toril?
I mean, we can explain away a solid percentage of the known races using the five creator races, but who would've created bug people??
Are they Spelljammer transplants from prehistory? Naturally evolved beings? A batrachi experiment? Did a portal open up to Athas?
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6383 Posts |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2473 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2016 : 23:44:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
Are they Spelljammer transplants from prehistory?
This seems to be a hint in the case of colony on Moonsea. The rest, who knows - but they are more than mobile, so could simply split to the groups trying to run for better habitat and those who tried to wait for rescue or collect supplies first, but ended up stuck and adapted.
quote:
Naturally evolved beings? A batrachi experiment? Did a portal open up to Athas?
Why specifically to Athas?
It's not like the 'jamming kreen were nomads living on ships only. There was an ancient kreen empire, or something like that. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1155 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2016 : 02:03:15
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| All Ed Greenwood has said is that Thri-Kreen in the Realms are linked to Jergal. Dazzler's explanation is more complete because Ed's explanation is restricted by Non Disclosure Agreements, but it's Dazzler's own canon - loosely based on lore. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2016 : 03:25:34
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The 2E Darksun rulebook Thri-Kreen of Athas describes thri-kreen as one (of six known) variant kreen species, although the main kreen species seen in Darksun campaigns is thor-kreen. This book describes kreen biology, psychology, society, and game mechanics in great detail - and it categorically asserts that all the kreen species originally evolved on Athas. (FWIW - ignoring the powerful attributes and psionic abilities inherent in all Darksun creatures - thri-kreen and thor-kreen seem to be very much the same species, the main difference being that thor-kreen are have strong ties to clan and territory while thri-kreen are basically semi-nomadic wanderers.)
2E Spelljammer material briefly describes a "lost" crystal sphere named KreenSpace, a lush thriving world (or number of worlds) populated by vast multitudes of kreen. Spelljamming races include thri-kreen and xixchil (another kreen variant mentioned in Thri-Kreen of Athas). A number of Spelljammer modules are constructed around the concept of crystal spheres drifting through the Flow something like bubbles caught in a river, they vaguely assert that Athas and KreenSpace can no longer be reached by Spelljamming vessels but at one time they were in "closer" proximity. The kreen have been known spacefaring race(s) for many millennia, they are noted for aggressive colonization, and they have populated a large number of worlds nominally dominated by (demi)humans. Spelljammer lore basically asserts that all thri-kreen found in anywhere (Realmspace, Greyspace, Krynnspace, etc) originated from KreenSpace. (Spelljammer fans long debated whether fabled KreenSpace was actually Athas during earlier ages, when it was a lush and green place unsullied by history.)
As mentioned in above posts, Realmslore has presented other explanations for the origins of thri-kreen in Faerun. My only response to this is that most other races (humans, elves, dwarves, orcs, giants, dragons, etc) have apparently evolved (or been divinely designed) in the Realms setting, Greyhawk setting, Dragonlance setting, and many other settings (even our own world!) while completely isolated from each other - and the actual truth is forever obfuscated by all sorts of conflicting explanations. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 27 May 2016 03:33:48 |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1231 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2016 : 07:17:20
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I've come up with an origin for the ones in the Moonsea and the surrounding lands.
The spellweavers that George Krashos so kindly placed in Ascore are closely linked. They performed some kind of ritual that attempted to ascend the entire spellweaver race to another level of existence.
Unfortunately it failed and destroyed them utterly (well almost). Jergal escaped because he was in stasis.
A number of exiles from that node of spellweavers lived in three linked nodes (a triangle of ziggurats/pyramids that existed at the Monument of the Ancients, Sorcerer's Isle and Thunderholme. They bound powerful beings from other planes to those nodes and used that energy to shunt themselves into another plane. Unfortunately it went a bit awry and they couldn't get back so they were stuck in the planar ether.
They managed to possess their human servants on the material plane that remained near the pyramids and thus were able to carryon existing by proxy.
Then the netherese released Maram and screwed up the node link and the spellweavers and humans were stuck in a possessed state. They exist part in the material world and part in the ethereal world. They look humanoid in shape with insectoid features and extra arms (like a spellweaver I believe).
The merge is permanent and humans don't know one insecto-humanoid from another so they are lumped together as thri kreen.
At least that's where I'm headed with them. The story is still work in progress.
quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
All Ed Greenwood has said is that Thri-Kreen in the Realms are linked to Jergal. Dazzler's explanation is more complete because Ed's explanation is restricted by Non Disclosure Agreements, but it's Dazzler's own canon - loosely based on lore.
What a cool origin! If you don't mind, I'm totally planning on using at least an altered version of this.
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
Are they Spelljammer transplants from prehistory?
This seems to be a hint in the case of colony on Moonsea. The rest, who knows - but they are more than mobile, so could simply split to the groups trying to run for better habitat and those who tried to wait for rescue or collect supplies first, but ended up stuck and adapted.
quote:
Naturally evolved beings? A batrachi experiment? Did a portal open up to Athas?
Why specifically to Athas?
It's not like the 'jamming kreen were nomads living on ships only. There was an ancient kreen empire, or something like that.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The 2E Darksun rulebook Thri-Kreen of Athas describes thri-kreen as one (of six known) variant kreen species, although the main kreen species seen in Darksun campaigns is thor-kreen. This book describes kreen biology, psychology, society, and game mechanics in great detail - and it categorically asserts that all the kreen species originally evolved on Athas. (FWIW - ignoring the powerful attributes and psionic abilities inherent in all Darksun creatures - thri-kreen and thor-kreen seem to be very much the same species, the main difference being that thor-kreen are have strong ties to clan and territory while thri-kreen are basically semi-nomadic wanderers.)
2E Spelljammer material briefly describes a "lost" crystal sphere named KreenSpace, a lush thriving world (or number of worlds) populated by vast multitudes of kreen. Spelljamming races include thri-kreen and xixchil (another kreen variant mentioned in Thri-Kreen of Athas). A number of Spelljammer modules are constructed around the concept of crystal spheres drifting through the Flow something like bubbles caught in a river, they vaguely assert that Athas and KreenSpace can no longer be reached by Spelljamming vessels but at one time they were in "closer" proximity. The kreen have been known spacefaring race(s) for many millennia, they are noted for aggressive colonization, and they have populated a large number of worlds nominally dominated by (demi)humans. Spelljammer lore basically asserts that all thri-kreen found in anywhere (Realmspace, Greyspace, Krynnspace, etc) originated from KreenSpace. (Spelljammer fans long debated whether fabled KreenSpace was actually Athas during earlier ages, when it was a lush and green place unsullied by history.)
My memory works strangely sometimes. I may have read the entries in SJ and DS once about the Thri-Kreen but their connections to those settings stuck with me for some reason. Thank you for the reminders.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
So there are concentrations of thrikreen in various places throughout Faerun.
There is a whole "nation" of them in Anchorome, as was mentioned somewhere in FMQ1 City of Gold. It was known by the Azuposi as the "Land of the Mantis Men." Yeah, this definitely deserves a write up.
Come to think about it, there are a number of ruins (Esh Alakar and the Bridge of the Ancients) near Michaca in Anchorome created by an unknown race. After what you said, you made me think this just had to be spellweavers! I remember an old Dragon Mag article that I need to find that focused on them... |
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Bulak
Acolyte
Netherlands
26 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2016 : 07:55:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
Come to think about it, there are a number of ruins (Esh Alakar and the Bridge of the Ancients) near Michaca in Anchorome created by an unknown race. After what you said, you made me think this just had to be spellweavers! I remember an old Dragon Mag article that I need to find that focused on them...
Dragon 338 p62-68: Ecology of the Spellweaver.  |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
578 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2016 : 08:02:12
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"Kreenspace" is mentioned in Thri-Kreen of Athas, but I believe that is the only actual mention. I can't recall it being mentioned in any Spelljammer product:
"The SPELLJAMMER setting has spacefaring thri-kreen, and rumors persist of a crystal sphere ("Kreenspace") dominated by kreen called xixchil (perhaps similar to the zik-chil of Athas), and related races; most of the fauna of this legendary sphere is supposedly insectoid."
It has this to say about the Thri-Kreen on Toril:
"Toril: Most thri-kreen live in the Shaar region, in the southern part of the continent of Faerun. These kreen are similar in build to the T'keech, but are sandy-yellow in color. These thri-kreen also have a dark brown striping effect on their chitin, which helps them blend more effectively with the tail savannah grasses of the Shaar. Thri-kreen "monsters" of Tori1 have a slightly reduced chance for a psionic wild talent (30% instead of 50%). Other thri-kreen are possible, but the other intelligent races of Toril have not yet come into contact with them. Potential locations include the plains of Anchorome, north of Maztica, or (if trin) in the deserts near Zakhara."
The Xixchil Monstrous Compendium sheet describes them as having evolved on a liveworld full of predators, which some fans have assigned to the great thorny branches on the cover of Dragon 175.
Thri-kreen are an old Spelljammer race, with a major presence some 4000 years ago. Their primary sphere of influence seems to be outside of Realmspace/Greayspace/Krynnspace around 1370 DR, although they are clearly still a major presence out there.
Thri-Kreen of Athas says that thri-kreen "seem" to have originated on Athas, and spread through "powerful psionics." The zik-chil mentioned in the book are clearly the Xixchil, given their abilities.
I support multiple origins for many races and creatures, but I do think thri-kreen are transplants. I think they're probably remnants of crashed Spelljammer ships, or colonization attempts, that have lost the culture of their spacefaring brethren (as well as the worship of the Mantis God of the Eternal Lotus). I would also say that the thri-kreen and xixchil of Athas are probably ancient spelljamming/planehopping colonists.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
Edited by - AuldDragon on 27 May 2016 08:05:38 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2473 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2016 : 09:47:08
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Aside of the Golden Plains and around, The Horde has thri-kreen in encounter lists for the steppe and wastelands. City of Gold (Maztica) mentions "great insect men" too. "In fact there are tribes of thri-kreen in the badlands to the northwest".
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
"Kreenspace" is mentioned in Thri-Kreen of Athas, but I believe that is the only actual mention. I can't recall it being mentioned in any Spelljammer product
There was some adventure involving a thri-kreen "crusade", IIRC. Most likely in Skulls and Crossbows, since according to the index that's where their ships were described.
quote:
Thri-Kreen of Athas says that thri-kreen "seem" to have originated on Athas, and spread through "powerful psionics." The zik-chil mentioned in the book are clearly the Xixchil, given their abilities.
The main evidence in-universe would be that Athas has not only the plant they use to produce "cement" from saliva, but also populations of thri-trin.
quote:
I would also say that the thri-kreen and xixchil of Athas are probably ancient spelljamming/planehopping colonists.
Can go either way. After all, the kreen were on Athas back in the Blue Age (more than 14000 years before "present" era), so they could start there and still have more than enough of time to try planewalking exploration, found colonies, create a whole space empire around a particularly thriving colony, then let it fall apart and drop into semi-obscurity as savage tribes left from secondary and tertiary colonies.
While lately Athas got more of dry terrain than the kreen can use, it had more than enough of troubles that could provoke an exodus. First Rajaat began to mess with the uber-magic (and when your sun suddenly turns dark crimson without any obvious reason and remains like this, it's scary), then Cleansing Wars - no one was out to get the kreen as such, but they'd still get caught in crossfire now and then, especially settled ones. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
578 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2016 : 10:37:30
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
"Kreenspace" is mentioned in Thri-Kreen of Athas, but I believe that is the only actual mention. I can't recall it being mentioned in any Spelljammer product
There was some adventure involving a thri-kreen "crusade", IIRC. Most likely in Skulls and Crossbows, since according to the index that's where their ships were described.
The adventures "Time Capsule" and "Jihad!" in Skull and Crossbows are the basis for pretty all thri-kreen info in Spelljammer (not including xixchil info).
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Thri-Kreen of Athas says that thri-kreen "seem" to have originated on Athas, and spread through "powerful psionics." The zik-chil mentioned in the book are clearly the Xixchil, given their abilities.
The main evidence in-universe would be that Athas has not only the plant they use to produce "cement" from saliva, but also populations of thri-trin.
Sure. It's vague enough that what someone wants for their campaign works, and also why they said "seem"; they didn't want to lock people into one thing. Those things could have developed after colonization of the world, or they could have been lost after leaving Athas.
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
I would also say that the thri-kreen and xixchil of Athas are probably ancient spelljamming/planehopping colonists.
Can go either way. After all, the kreen were on Athas back in the Blue Age (more than 14000 years before "present" era), so they could start there and still have more than enough of time to try planewalking exploration, found colonies, create a whole space empire around a particularly thriving colony, then let it fall apart and drop into semi-obscurity as savage tribes left from secondary and tertiary colonies.
While lately Athas got more of dry terrain than the kreen can use, it had more than enough of troubles that could provoke an exodus. First Rajaat began to mess with the uber-magic (and when your sun suddenly turns dark crimson without any obvious reason and remains like this, it's scary), then Cleansing Wars - no one was out to get the kreen as such, but they'd still get caught in crossfire now and then, especially settled ones.
That was my opinion. The Xixchil description isn't written as if they've lost their homeworld, and that to me indicates it is still known and accessible, and it says they spread via spelljamming. That tells me xixchil at least didn't originate on Athas. Of course, the MC sheet doesn't mention thri-kreen as originating on the same world (neither does it say they didn't, though). I am an avowed Spelljammer fan, and tend to give more weight to lore from that setting when there are conflicts. :)
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6383 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6383 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2016 : 20:59:56
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Several races in the Realms exist - according to well-established Realmslore - because of explicitly divine intervention. Some of these migrated or were imported from other worlds, others appear to be recreations of known racial patterns, they are sometimes identical to their other-worldly counterparts and sometimes modified by divine meddlings or by time into unique populations which cannot be found elsewhere.
It seems perfectly plausible to me that Jergal would have some interest in the kreen. Although admittedly this is based largely on early D&D artwork which depicts Jergal as an insect-like mandible-faced humanoid, not on any canon lore that I've read. And then again, perhaps Jergal's form was chosen arbitrarily or (re)shaped by the perceptions of his worshippers (and other deities) over the ages, perhaps his form is just well-suited to performing his divine functions, and in the end there's really no particular reason for Jergal (or any other Faerunian deity) to be represented as a "human". |
[/Ayrik] |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6383 Posts |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1231 Posts |
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2016 : 02:35:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
Is there any speculation or canon material as to the origins of the thri-Kreen on Toril?
I mean, we can explain away a solid percentage of the known races using the five creator races, but who would've created bug people??
Are they Spelljammer transplants from prehistory? Naturally evolved beings? A batrachi experiment? Did a portal open up to Athas?
The answer would depend: does the Dark Sun world co-exist in the same universe-metaverse as the Forgotten Realms? If yes, then they could theoretically be (Spelljammer) transplants from the World of Dark Sun.
For example we already know that Ravenloft (Barovia) exists in the same meta-universe as the Forgotten Realms. That's exactly the reason that Player-Characters native to Faerun could visit the demiplane on which Barovia is located on. This also explains why the Vistani of Barovia could also move/relocate/visit to the world of Faerun. |
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apotheot
Acolyte
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2016 : 14:43:53
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The few in Malatra emigrated from Athas. Descendents of the first group grew to huge size, and had wings. They were called Thri-Kesh.
-Apotheot |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2473 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2016 : 15:05:43
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quote:
Originally posted by moonbeast
The answer would depend: does the Dark Sun world co-exist in the same universe-metaverse as the Forgotten Realms? If yes, then they could theoretically be (Spelljammer) transplants from the World of Dark Sun.
Kind of yes, but stands apart of normal Prime - closer to the elemental planes, wrapped in Black, etc.
Thus canonically the sphere is not accessible via spelljamming, but a lot of folk managed to get out through planewalking.
It was mentioned in Planescape materials IIRC. And classification of psionics by Tarandas of Raam became common far beyond Athas. Also, there was at least one gate featured in an adventure - some Githyanki tried to invade through it because they thought the local barbarians who rarely use metal weapons are easy prey. 
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People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1155 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2016 : 15:25:25
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Athas has also been tenuously linked to the Realms through the Shadows of Amn video game and the Abyssal Plague series of novels.
In fact, I believe that the only popular Material Plane that has never had a documented link to the Realms was the Birthright one. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36875 Posts |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1231 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2016 : 21:37:25
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| I'm curious - where do you find the best information on Thri Kreen culture as it stands in the Realms? |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6680 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2016 : 02:03:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
I'm curious - where do you find the best information on Thri Kreen culture as it stands in the Realms?
Probably the 3E Shining South sourcebook.
-- George Krashos |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
578 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2016 : 05:17:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Didn't part of Athas also wind up in Ravenloft?
Yeah, a land called Kalidnay. It was an Island of Terror, though, rather than a Core Realm. You couldn't walk from it to Sithicus or Barovia, for example.
Canonically in 2nd Edition, all settings were "somewhere out there," even if travel between them wasn't easy. Even if it wasn't directly stated and played no role, that was the default assumption written into the connecting settings of Planescape and Spelljammer, as well as other material that touches on the connections.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36875 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2016 : 05:41:09
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quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Didn't part of Athas also wind up in Ravenloft?
Yeah, a land called Kalidnay. It was an Island of Terror, though, rather than a Core Realm. You couldn't walk from it to Sithicus or Barovia, for example.
Canonically in 2nd Edition, all settings were "somewhere out there," even if travel between them wasn't easy. Even if it wasn't directly stated and played no role, that was the default assumption written into the connecting settings of Planescape and Spelljammer, as well as other material that touches on the connections.
Jeff
Birthright and Mystara remained separate, as I recall, as did the Red Steel setting. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2473 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2016 : 12:07:46
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quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
In fact, I believe that the only popular Material Plane that has never had a documented link to the Realms was the Birthright one.
It has fey-er elves, its own cosmology (Shadow World) and no ties with anything else (beyond summons), IIRC.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Didn't part of Athas also wind up in Ravenloft?
Yeah.
I figure it's because the Dark Powers are actually a bunch of undead weremagpies. Who retained their instincts. That's why raven is such a mighty symbol out there.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Birthright and Mystara remained separate, as I recall, as did the Red Steel setting.
Red Steel is a part of Mystara (the Savage Coast). It was visited by Princess Ark and all that. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36875 Posts |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
578 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2016 : 21:34:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Birthright and Mystara remained separate, as I recall, as did the Red Steel setting.
Links weren't always detailed, but canonically everything was connected. Spelljammer wasn't getting new material when they converted Mystara from D&D to AD&D, but the First Quest introductory boxed set was set on Mystara (although it was still very generic), and it featured a visit to a small cluster of asteroids in orbit with (wrecked, I think) Spelljamming ships, as well as a Giff captain who mentions that his ship is out of the Rock of Bral. In addition, On Hallowed Ground discusses the Birthright deities as being particularly interested in their own world and are listed under "Single Sphere Powers," specifically referenceing Crystal Spheres; the assumption is that Aebrynis is in a Crystal Sphere somewhere out there. Warriors of Heaven also listed all the non-evil Mystara Immortals as deities with planar realms. There's also a Mystaran character in Ravenloft (from even before it was ported to AD&D, I believe; don't recall who it is though), and Mystaran characters (and monsters) in Planescape. Not sure if any Birthright characters made it in to Planescape, but some of the traditional "generic" deities and fiends are worshipped there, such as Yeenoghu, Vaprak, and Moradin. Connections to Planescape are more common and concrete, but Planescape also makes the assumption that every prime material world exists in a crystal sphere, somewhere.
The only setting without even a mention of Planescape that I can recall is Jakandor, which was a very flavorful "barbarians vs. stagnant empire" setting on a large island/small continent; no deities were detailed, the rest of the world wasn't detailed, etc.; it is one of the "drop it anywhere" type releases. But it also didn't canonically exist outside the assumed model, either. It just didn't discuss it.
The only thing I can think of that could be strongly argued to exist outside of the model is the Tale of the Comet adventure/setting.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11997 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2016 : 02:00:15
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quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Birthright and Mystara remained separate, as I recall, as did the Red Steel setting.
Links weren't always detailed, but canonically everything was connected. Spelljammer wasn't getting new material when they converted Mystara from D&D to AD&D, but the First Quest introductory boxed set was set on Mystara (although it was still very generic), and it featured a visit to a small cluster of asteroids in orbit with (wrecked, I think) Spelljamming ships, as well as a Giff captain who mentions that his ship is out of the Rock of Bral. In addition, On Hallowed Ground discusses the Birthright deities as being particularly interested in their own world and are listed under "Single Sphere Powers," specifically referenceing Crystal Spheres; the assumption is that Aebrynis is in a Crystal Sphere somewhere out there. Warriors of Heaven also listed all the non-evil Mystara Immortals as deities with planar realms. There's also a Mystaran character in Ravenloft (from even before it was ported to AD&D, I believe; don't recall who it is though), and Mystaran characters (and monsters) in Planescape. Not sure if any Birthright characters made it in to Planescape, but some of the traditional "generic" deities and fiends are worshipped there, such as Yeenoghu, Vaprak, and Moradin. Connections to Planescape are more common and concrete, but Planescape also makes the assumption that every prime material world exists in a crystal sphere, somewhere.
The only setting without even a mention of Planescape that I can recall is Jakandor, which was a very flavorful "barbarians vs. stagnant empire" setting on a large island/small continent; no deities were detailed, the rest of the world wasn't detailed, etc.; it is one of the "drop it anywhere" type releases. But it also didn't canonically exist outside the assumed model, either. It just didn't discuss it.
The only thing I can think of that could be strongly argued to exist outside of the model is the Tale of the Comet adventure/setting.
Jeff
And if you look at the history behind Jakandor, it basically started out with a bunch of barbarians that suddenly found themselves transferred to a new world. With some slight modifications on dates, the whole Jakandor concept fits in well with the realms if it were down around Zakhara. The whole spellplague Abeir/Toril transference thing could fit them well. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
578 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2016 : 05:39:07
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
And if you look at the history behind Jakandor, it basically started out with a bunch of barbarians that suddenly found themselves transferred to a new world. With some slight modifications on dates, the whole Jakandor concept fits in well with the realms if it were down around Zakhara. The whole spellplague Abeir/Toril transference thing could fit them well.
Oh, sure; part of the point of the setting (and a lot of the generic and semi-generic material in 2e) was that it could be added to an existing setting (established or homebrew) without much difficulty, and that's one reason why they really didn't detail too much of the metaphysical aspects of the setting.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1628 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2016 : 15:42:46
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| Thri-Kreen are likely to be detailed in Volo's Guide to Monsters,I could be wrong, but I doubt it, so your answers are likely going to be found there. |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2016 : 18:44:55
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Well, my take is that Mystara, and/or the Known World, are in the distant past of the D&D multiverse. Let me elaborate, the Known World, was outright stated to Earth in increadibly distant past. See the maps of Mystara/The Known World:
http://pandius.com/master-outer-world-colour.png
And Earth 152 million years ago:
http://geomaps.wr.usgs.gov/parks/pltec/sc152ma.html
The situation gets more complicated, as the Early Known World material, and the later Mystara ones, appear to not exacly the same setting, with a number of differences, so fans themselves theorized Mystara and the Known World to are closely related two worlds/universes. |
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Thri-Kree Origins?
