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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Apr 2016 : 23:56:28
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Just wondering...
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3823 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2016 : 00:06:38
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| According to the creation myth, yes. Before Mystryl was born from Selune and Shar, only those two, Chauntea or the other deities that existed at the time could use magic. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1253 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2016 : 00:11:45
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Trying to work out the logic a bit here...
I think you can assume Mystra and the Weave are either one and the same or only exist simultaneously. Though this can't be proven (and I don't think it has been explicitly stated), there is a ton of evidence, considering every time she has kicked the bucket, the Weave unraveled and at least temporarily ceased to exist. It also reinstated every time she was ressurected.
So knowing that, I guess we can also assume the Weave first came into being at Mystra's (Mystryl's) creation or possibly some time afterwards.
I believe Mystryl was created from Sune's body in an incident with Shar before the world was even formed. I don't think that Sune, Shar and whatever other gods existed at that time had any living worshipers considering there was no world to live on yet.
With no living woshipers, is there divine magic? Well, I guess the gods were using magic, but at this point it depends on how divine magic is definied (is it only divine magic if there aren't mortal's using it, or does god-magic count?). My guess is that a mortal needs to be using magic for it to take that name.
So, right there we'd have to say that the Weave existed first.
The other issue though, comes from the aboleth. Didn't they exist long before even those days? Was their magic divine?
Sorry if I am bringing up more questions than answering yours... |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3823 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2016 : 00:21:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
Trying to work out the logic a bit here...
I think you can assume Mystra and the Weave are either one and the same or only exist simultaneously. Though this can't be proven (and I don't think it has been explicitly stated), there is a ton of evidence, considering every time she has kicked the bucket, the Weave unraveled and at least temporarily ceased to exist. It also reinstated every time she was ressurected.
So knowing that, I guess we can also assume the Weave first came into being at Mystra's (Mystryl's) creation or possibly some time afterwards.
I believe Mystryl was created from Sune's body in an incident with Shar before the world was even formed. I don't think that Sune, Shar and whatever other gods existed at that time had any living worshipers considering there was no world to live on yet.
With no living woshipers, is there divine magic? Well, I guess the gods were using magic, but at this point it depends on how divine magic is definied (is it only divine magic if there aren't mortal's using it, or does god-magic count?). My guess is that a mortal needs to be using magic for it to take that name.
So, right there we'd have to say that the Weave existed first.
The other issue though, comes from the aboleth. Didn't they exist long before even those days? Was their magic divine?
Sorry if I am bringing up more questions than answering yours...
If you go by what ''Magic of Faerun'' says, things went like this:
-Ao creates the ''FR-verse''
-Selune and Shar form
-They create the heavens and Toril (along with its embodiment, Chauntea)
-Selune brings heat from the Plane of Fire and basically creates the sun for Chauntea (so that life can exist).
-Shar and Selune fight, because Shar doesn't like the light
-In the attempt to stop Shar, Selune hurls a part of her power at her sister, creating Mystryl in the process.
-Mystryl ''balances'' the conflict, but in the meantime her existence brings the Weave into existence--she *is* the Weave indeed.
Given that divine magic is taken from the gods, I'd say that their magic counts as divine too. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 14 Apr 2016 00:23:18 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6688 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2016 : 04:37:05
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I'm pretty sure that Ed is on the record as stating that the Weave is needed for divine magic too.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3823 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2016 : 04:39:30
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I'm pretty sure that Ed is on the record as stating that the Weave is needed for divine magic too.
-- George Krashos
Yes, now that I think about it, I recall him saying that too, but I can't point to a source. That would mean that what I posted above is more a myth than anything else. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2511 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2016 : 08:27:36
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I'm pretty sure that Ed is on the record as stating that the Weave is needed for divine magic too.
...which is kind of obvious anyway from disruptions in the Weave (WM / DM zones) affecting priests too? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2016 : 16:09:59
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| At one point, Mystra kept the weave from priests of certain gods. |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2016 : 12:04:54
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I would say that if you mean magic from school of divination - no it came only with Mystryl's Weave.
If you mean if gods were able to make miracles, create things - yes including creation of Mystryl and the Weave. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1588 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2016 : 09:38:03
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Divine magic, as in the magic used by clerics, druids and non-arcane spellcasters, probably appeared on Faerun when the first deities started granting spells to their worshipers.
Divine magic, as in any magic cast by a god, obviously appeared with the first god. |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2016 : 10:44:10
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quote:
-Mystryl ''balances'' the conflict, but in the meantime her existence brings the Weave into existence--she *is* the Weave indeed.
This doesn't make sense to me. Shar doesn't like the light so Selune hurls some of her power thus creating Mystryl in order to balance things.
Balance what exactly? I could understand if a goddess of time were created where she governed over Selune having part of the day in light and Shar having the other at night. Basically the Goddess of Day and Night. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2016 : 12:43:39
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Divine magic, as in the magic used by clerics, druids and non-arcane spellcasters, probably appeared on Faerun when the first deities started granting spells to their worshipers.
Divine magic, as in any magic cast by a god, obviously appeared with the first god.
Exactly what I was going to say. There's MORTAL divine magic, as in the magic that gods grant mortals, and DIVINE MAGIC (or some might call it God Magic). Now, whether Mystra can actually strip a god of God Magic could be debated. After all, the only incident we know of it is a newly risen to godhood version of Cyric who had recently "absorbed" (and that word is meant to be considered in many ways) the goddess of lies and illusions, Ariel... I mean Leira. Who is to say that maybe somehow Cyric wasn't "confused" into believing he had no ability to channel the weave. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Kessalin
Acolyte
USA
28 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2016 : 23:12:53
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| I remember reading, possibly in Faiths and Avatars (2e) that Mystra can impose a blanket ban on any deity's worshippers, preventing them from touching the Weave and thus denying them the ability to cast spells. It's very taxing on her, however, and not something she does lightly because it tends to ruffle deific feathers all over the place. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1588 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2016 : 12:31:56
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| She can, but only in Realmspace. On neutral ground or on the Planes outside her realm, Boccob, Wee Jas, Mellifleur, Mathonwy, Corellon and so on can tell her where to stuff her authority. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2016 : 13:55:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Kessalin
I remember reading, possibly in Faiths and Avatars (2e) that Mystra can impose a blanket ban on any deity's worshippers, preventing them from touching the Weave and thus denying them the ability to cast spells. It's very taxing on her, however, and not something she does lightly because it tends to ruffle deific feathers all over the place.
Yeah, that was put in after the whole Cyric thing, but we have absolutely no other reference to it ever occurring with another deity. Therefore, it leaves the option listed above open (i.e. that Cyric was simply tricked as a brand new deity into thinking he couldn't access his magic). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3823 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2016 : 14:00:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
quote:
-Mystryl ''balances'' the conflict, but in the meantime her existence brings the Weave into existence--she *is* the Weave indeed.
This doesn't make sense to me. Shar doesn't like the light so Selune hurls some of her power thus creating Mystryl in order to balance things.
Balance what exactly? I could understand if a goddess of time were created where she governed over Selune having part of the day in light and Shar having the other at night. Basically the Goddess of Day and Night.
''Balance'' is the exact word used in the book. But IIRC, I've read somehwere in these forums that Mystra has some power on time-traveling, so she might actually have some power over time, like you suggest. That's pure speculation, tho.
If we take the notion that Mystra can prevent gods from accessing magic, that would make a sort of arbiter in the conflict. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Did divine magic predate Weave Magic in the Realms
