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Originally posted by Misereor


I have no idea who the Suren were, but I always pictured Damara and Vaasa as being settled by still semi-tribal Nars fleeing in the opposite direction of Raumathar as the nation collapsed. Over the centuries a balance was achieved where Damara became dominated mostly by those tribesfolk who never descended into demons worship, while Vaasa was eventually settled by the factions who did (heavy emphasis on Orcus sub-faction).

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Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Hmm it looks like demons started marching openly with narfells armies around -600 dr when narfell invaded mulhorand by see and lost and then subsequently lost thay to raumathar.
I'm wondering if this started a decline in narfell that contined for 500 years and ultimately culminated in a last ditch attempt to win by summoning and binding eltab.
That works for my idea of what happened to the jhaam when they first arrived in the region - narfell enslaved them to build and fortify the lands to the west (impiltur) while narfell defended its territory in the east.

I am wondering why so many demon lords were interested in narfell and helped to bring down raumathar. Kostchie, orcus, eltab, fraz, grazzt. And many of then look to have had a personal involvement which is also unusual.

Anyway, on to modern day narfell. I think the war did kill much of narfells population. The battles killed many, the collapse of civilisation killed some more, the marauding demons, and the cold killed even more, then finally the suren came and killed any magic users they could find (seems to be a typical primitive tribal reaction) and enslaved the rest. So the modern nar are made of majority suren with say 30 percent ancient nar and then a tiny minority of others (sossrim, raumathar). I'm talking in genetic terms of course.

The damarans are an equal mix of jhaam, ancient nar, sossrim, and raumathar, with a dash of netherese.

Impiltur is mostly chondathan with a significant minority of ancient nar and damaran.

Vaasans are just damarans with extra sossrim and netherese added

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Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Also, it appears so many rulers of narfell appear to have been sired by the demon lords themselves which I find improbable because it requires a personal visit of the demon lord into the bed chamber of a woman (who's is quite happy to die when the child is born) or for the woman to go to the abyss and meet the demon lord. I can see this scenario happening maybe once but that's it.

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Originally posted by Korginard

It's possible that people would want to hold on to the proud heritage of their past, but lets take a look at that past. Narfell is known to have been a land of Demon-Worshipers. It was also destroyed, quite spectacularly to boot. Now, taking pride in your ancestry is one thing, but what kind of stories would we be telling here? Crazy old Grandpa Lenny who worshiped a Dark Lord and sacrificed untold numbers of people to feed it's terrible hunger? Tales of our glorious ancestors who summoned the hoards of the Abyss to ravage the world and slaughter their enemies? Sure some people might convince themselves that it was simply what they had to do to survive against those nasty Raumvira, but generally speaking, most sane folk would not really take much pride in these kind of things. It may have been easier to set aside their Nar heritage and embrace a new culture instead.
I do however like the idea of some of the refugees transforming to survive. In looking at Demon Lords, it seems that Kostchchie in particular would be a good candidate to have transformed them to survive cold and hostile regions. They could have become Yetis as you suggested, or perhaps even Frost Giants or some demonic blend of Frost Giant and Human. They could also have been tainted with Lycanthropy, modeled after winter wolves or bears. I usually tend to think of Were-Bears as gentile giants, but a savage and brutal type of Were-Bear berserker would be truly terrifying!

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Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Well I might include a few nods to narathmault but what would a demon lord find so interesting about a dead primordial. One might have a use for it but not 5.

I think I need to go back to basics, what does a demon want? To eat souls, destroy everything, and kill devils. Why haven't the endless hordes of demons done that already, because they are a planar dimension away from the material plane and need summoning to enter it, once there they still only have access to places they can travel.

I think the answer to why the demon lords are interested in narfell or were interested in narfell lies in the discrepancy between 2e and 4e lore on thakorsils seat because at the end of the day demons need access to other worlds more than anything else.

Also eltab himself was summoned, kossuth was an ur-hortha which I presumed meant avatar. So what is the hortha of kostchie. At first I was going to go with an aspect, but that's an artificial construct of the d20 rule system made to allow players to challenge the gods and I felt it never quite fitted in with demons and devils. So what about an emissary, a corruptor, a trusted servant or even offspring that was sent to tempt the last remaining giants of jhothun.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Also, it appears so many rulers of narfell appear to have been sired by the demon lords themselves which I find improbable because it requires a personal visit of the demon lord into the bed chamber of a woman (who's is quite happy to die when the child is born) or for the woman to go to the abyss and meet the demon lord. I can see this scenario happening maybe once but that's it.

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I'm pretty sure that most demon lords don't show up in their normal forms when they're looking to get it on with a human woman, and I'm equally sure they omit the detail about the upcoming death during childbirth.

Demon lords are not exactly known for being truthful and forthcoming with relevant info.

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Originally posted by dazzlerdal

I'll admit the suren speaking ulou is unlikely but as a people they suddenly swept out of the hagga Shan and conquered much of the hordelands before becoming naturalised by the Kao or being forced out by the shou and other imaskari successors.
The hagga Shan is a mountain range on the far north of the hordelands so it is more likely a horde migrated to the region than swelled in the mountains (although in a fantasy land they could have lived in caves surviving on mushrooms, or something else equally improbable in normal reality).
As for the arthraen, they may have started in the north and spread south (they were around for a long time before narfell). I'm thinking it unlikely the nar adopted ulou from the ulutiuns because if anything they would have adopted the language of their conquerors (suren) meaning that naric is a fusion of suren and nar languages so either of those two had to be ulou. The parallels are with the conquests of England over the years, each time the native and conquering language merged over time to give English which I believe is close in sentence structure to a Celtic language (back to front from Latin languages) but gets many words from Latin based languages.

However I have no idea what the real answer is which is why I left my theories as suitably vague.

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