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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6666 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2016 : 10:48:33

Nice to see that my realmslore nuggets can generate such interesting discussion.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2016 : 15:21:40

I'm not quite sure I follow you Baltas are you saying the suren could have conquered an ulou people and as a result now speak ulou.
If so then that is one possible situation I am proposing when the suren conquered the arthraen nar. Either the arthraen spoke an ulou language and it replaced the suren language. Or the suren spoke an ulou language and it replaced the arthraen nar when they conquered the nar.
I'm thinking it more likely the arthraen nar spoke ulou however because damaran is also an ulou language and that likely formed before the suren arrived

So George have you any further thoughts or nuggets you wish to share.
I'm looking at the glacier of the white worm and the earth wood now and I have a draconic based theory for one that is based on the excerpt of the great conflagration in ghotr

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2016 : 19:54:05

Come up to Quillan's Wall and I've been trying to historically tie in why the regions are in favour of the old kingdom or change or indeed don't care.

What I'm thinking is that the Damarans inhabited Polten and Morov historically so that has strong support among the general populace for the old kingdom of Damara.

In the far west of Damara is where the Arthraen Nar tribes were pushed as the Damarans and Suren Nar expanded into their territory. Although the Arthraen Nar were subjugated and merged with the Damarans centuries ago they still retain a cultural rivalry with the Damarans and loathe the Bloodfeathers conquerors.

The Suren Nar occupied Morov for a time but were forced out by Feldrin Bloodfeathers when he conquered Heliogabalus. They stayed in the frozen north and were left along until the last century when Damara brought Brandiar and Soravia under its sway. They don't care about the kingdom of Damara and are happy to be left alone in lands far from the capital that no one cares about.

Of course the lords of the regions are different and all have their own agendas but as far as the people are concerned that is where they stand.

Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2016 : 03:40:38

Well, sorry I was rather vague. I meant that the Turkhic Bulgars conquered the Slavic tribes, but got overtime assimilated within by the Slavic peoples, and started to speak a Slavic language. I just guessed a similar situation could occur with the Suren.

Curiously, modern Naric, is in the same language sub-group as Rengardt, Andt, Erakan etc - Low Ulutium. This suggests Rengard, Eraka and/or Andt tribes had some influence on modern Nars and possibly Damarans and Vaasans, or that Arthraen were related to Regard barbarians.
But Damaran and Vaasan language is Chardic of the Chard subgroup, which also includes Eastling(Implipturan) language. The Speaking in Tounges article, also groups Chard(which includes Chardic(Damaran/Vaasan) and Eastling(Implipturan)) as an Ulou subgroup, with no direct relation to Jhaamdathan and/or Chondathan.

Low Ulutium and Chard though, are separate subgroups there...

George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6666 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2016 : 03:54:45

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
So George have you any further thoughts or nuggets you wish to share.
I'm looking at the glacier of the white worm and the earth wood now and I have a draconic based theory for one that is based on the excerpt of the great conflagration in ghotr

I have lots, but wouldn't want to stymie the discussion. After all, the stuff you are all postulating about, bar the Suren, is from my noggin'. You might be tempted to consider any comment I made to be "right" - and we know there's no such thing.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2016 : 09:14:06

Well we could ascribe the sub grouping of naric as a linguistic mistake, with it being grouped in that sub group because of some common words or sentence structures that are actually part of the original ulou language and which the ulutiuns lost because of shou influences.
Chardic being in a different sub group is possibly a similar event to modern day English which is derived from Saxon and Norman but is so distinct from both that it occupies it's own group. So chardic borrows from ulou, raumtharan, imaskari (if the suren were imaskari speakers), and jhaam (not chondathan as that did not exist yet), and later acquires netherese from the northern moonsea/thar. The result of this mixture is a new subgroup of the ulou language which it follows for sentence structure but has words from all the other languages.

And George you are quite right I would 90 percent chance take your answer as correct although I will never subscribe to ulutius death/sinking as -2550 dr when it is clearly -25500 dr.

So on to the current nentyarch, any thoughts as to his true identity, his age, his motivations. What else has he done other than build a fortress atop dun Tharos. The fact that he did build a fortress atop it suggests an almost familial connection to the place.
Was he around during the time of the empire of narfell, if so how did he survive assuming he even lived in the forests he currently controls.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2016 : 14:53:35

Hmm Dionysus the saint of poetic justice who swapped poison goblets to ensure the poisoner becomes the poisoned (thanks George this guy is golden for intrigue)

Based In damara, I wonder what lore could be made out of that. In my own lineage of the blood feathers I had a king and heir poisoned by a witch but I wonder if it is not more suitable for them to poison each other (under her manipulations or not) and Dionysus being a simple but devout Butler who could detect the wine and undid both poisonings but the outcome was ultimately the same.

Of course to become a saint you have to die so how did Dionysus die and why is it that saint sollars had a monastery on Damara's border and Dionysus does not.

I have a few ideas but I wonder what others think.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2016 : 15:05:43

I've pin pointed the settlement/expansion of damara to three distinct periods.

First is in early 1076 when feldrin blood feathers enters into an alliance with a large damaran tribe (the most powerful that happened to control much of polten) and took the region of morovvar from the nar (by taking heliogabalus). They also claimed ostel. The lands of polten and ostel were given to the merc commanders that helped feldrin.

Then in 1096 onwards the kingdom claims arcata and bloodstone after the hobgoblins were destroyed by impiltur which took pressure off damara and allowed them to expand beyond their walls.

Then in the 1200s damara claims brandiar and soravvar after the explorer palus frohm discovered the dwarves of ironspur.

Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
605 Posts

Posted - 27 Feb 2016 : 18:49:57

To add my perspective - all northern barbarians on both sides of Anauroch came very long time ago from the steppes now occupied by Tuigians. They have all worshiped nature spirits, most of them used horses. They were pushed by expansion of Imaskari and moved north and west under the line of Great Glacier. Some of them settled places on the way others continued further (probably led by some great leader like Uthgar who later become their god). Thus they made Sossrim, Raumathar, Narfell, Netheries and barbarians of the North. In Moonsea and Narfell they found remnants of Giant culture that in my realms uses Dethek runes. In Narfell begun a great druidic tradition and the Nentyarch (the arcidruid) came to rule this nation. Later they found ruins of Ilithiry ruins of Narathmault and there begun their fall as those who worshipped demons got great power and used it to rule the nation. During that time Mulhorand needed a help of those northern barbarians with Orcgate wars and both Narfell and Raumathar mercenaries were used. Raumathari being closer were used in great numbers and some of them found ruins of imaskari and learned about their battle magic and constructs. They brought this knowledge back home where it was later used to stop the expansive Narfellians.

I am not sure about the Suren but it make sense that after fall of those empires some scavengers will claim the place.

So for me Damaran using Dethek runes is logical but I would also like to find out why were all those demon lords interested in those lands. I believe demon worship in Narfell empire was common but strangely cosmopolitan for demons to allow other demons to be worshiped as well (as somebody had current ruler under his thumb). They might all see it as a gateway to Toril and battled for influence there?
Interesting detail about Narfell for me is that it is based on diefic magic - originaly corrupted druids turned clerics of demons instead of usual arcane dominant demonists elsewhere.
BTW Rashemen witches are remnant of this druidic tradition that was carried over in secrecy during Narfell era.

Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
605 Posts

Posted - 27 Feb 2016 : 19:04:11

There is also a hint that Eltab's binding was a work of other demon lord who told the secret of his binding to Narfellians. As Orcus is credited for Crown of Narfell he is probably one of the most prominent demon lords there (and his worship obviously survived in Vaasa) in later times and mostly based in western Narfell (Implitur/Damara/Vaasa) as opposed to big influence of Eltab in eastern Narfell (Red Wizards). Eltab's binding happened in Dun-Orthass (Citadel of Conjurers in Implitur) which seems to me like a obvious power grab by Orcus and even name of the place seems like a new seat of power in Narfell. I will have to look into other demon lords influence there as this seems interesting.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2016 : 14:45:08

Well I'm pretty sure both narfell and raumathar picked up imaskari lore from their excursions in the orcgate wars. This likely caused the abandonment of their shamanistic traditions for more arcane pursuits.

I'm going to share my theory on the demonic interest in narfell and the discrepancy between the editions for lore on thakorsils seat.

Previous editions stated that the seat came from another world where it was used to bind a devil I believe. 4e states that the seat was originally created in a region of narfell (before narfell was united). Combine the two together and it means that somewhere in narfell there existed a point where you could walk directly to another world, perhaps not a portal more a rift or just a bridging point so that if you walked past a certain point in a certain direction it looked completely different and you were actually in another world.

So the demonic interest in narfell was because of this bridge to one or more worlds.

The initial awareness of narfell came when the nentyarch discovered the "crown of narfell" in the ruins of narathmault. Although I don't think it was a crown in the beginning and may not have originally come from this region (the portal to shaundalar means it could be from the shaar). It could be sarrukh in origin or it even have been the head of astaroth (the demon that gargauth killed)

That crown sparked narfells interest in the demonic and brought it to the attentions of the demons.
As various clans gained power through service to particular demonic patrons so other clans gained power by siding with their rivals.

From -600 Dr onwards we have a new revolution in the narfell dynasties and I think this coincides with larlochs arrival in the region where he used the death moon orb to control a court of his own away from netheril (that's in the books). I'm undecided though if larloch was trying to remove the demonic association or not (I theorise that extra planar dealings were frowned upon in netheril during the discovery and shadowed ages because of the troubles it caused)

Ultimately though fraz urb luu's servants get a scion into power, help the demon binders to finish the binding of a demonlord by providing the true name of eltab and thus end the war. It backfires though because by binding eltab to torii they accidentally destroy the link between narfell and the other worlds.

At least that's where I'm headed.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 07 Dec 2016 : 20:05:40

Well im back to looking at the cold lands.

Im puzzling over the presence of bahamut and tiamat in vaasa and damara.

When i first visited the region i imagined a historical tie for both religions in the region.

After all one of the sourcebooks details bahamut and tiamat as quasi deities which wander the mountains of the north.

I figured the witchking picked that site for castle perilous because there was already a gate to tiamats demesne beneath it.

Plus this land could have been one of many battlegrounds between giants and dragons in the thousand years war. Perhaps there is something older than bahamut and tiamat here (garyxs body perhaps) that they have been fighting over for millennia.

Any thoughts. Even those in opposition (quotes to support them would be helpful).

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 08 Dec 2016 : 08:42:46

As well as the numerous religious conundrums (i will be using George Krashos' lore to handle the numerous real world religions appearing here and nowhere else - now they are saints of the more prominent faerunian religions), how are people handling the political and social divide in damara.

Why is the country split into a camp that backs the old monarchy and one that backs the new. Why is the heart of damara merchant dominated while the outer regions are more feudal.

Damara is only 300 years old so any reasons for these divides should be still evident within society

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 08 Dec 2016 : 08:44:57

And one last thought is there anything people would like to see done with Damara that they felt was a missed opportunity. Im looking to turn it into a feudal political hotbed with plenty of history and intrigue.

Is there anything anyone else has done with it. I always look here for inspiration and have never been disappointed so far.

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 08 Dec 2016 : 22:37:03

IIRC, my idea for the Suren was that they were from northern kara-Tur originally - a region called The Plain of Horses. They were a pre-Shou indigenous group which I've named the 'Haltai' (we still have a tribe called the Wu-Haltai in K-T canon, which is where I got the name from). They would be the equivalent of our ancient Chinese/Mongolians (I picture the Shou themselves as interlopers - the 'aristocracy' of Shou-Lung are taller, and have a tendency toward RED hair).

If you read the Empires trilogy, there is quite a LOT of info about the Suren and Kalmyk - they weren't entirely human. This is where I've gotten my idea for an ancient Ogre (magi) kingdom in the Koryaz Mountains region. THAT kingdom conquered the surrounding human tribes, and then invaded the Taan region (I don't have my timeline anymore - it was probably right around the time Imaskar fell). This would explain the discrepancy between what little we know about those two groups (described as both 'people' and also as 'monsters', with a 'demonic visage'). Since Ogre Magi in K-T are really just Wang-Liang - Ogre half-fiends - it makes a lot of sense that there were demons (Oni) running loose in ancient K-T, who interbred with some Ogres (and others), carved-out their own little kingdom, and then at some point 'burst forth' from the K-T region on into the Endless Wastes (so it would appear to those dwelling there that they "poured out of the Kora-Shan"). If they timed their empire-aspirations with the fall of Imaskar, THAT would make a LOT of sense.

In my homebrew musings on the Hordelands region, I had it where the human portion broke-away from the 'monstrous' portion, which is when the Suren split from the Kalmyk (although I have to go back through the material to figure out which was which). This ties into the lore regarding the Copper Demon of Troos, who I assume usurped control of Troos, the capital of the lost kingdom of Tsharoon (mentioned by Ed in his Athalantar article). This also gives us a reason to have a large group of Gnolls in the northern Taan, as one of the Tangan (nomad) tribes (gnolls are also native to the Taan - they had their own kingdom in this area as well, in the distant past).

So, when Raumathar fell, they lost control of their 'caged' fiends (which were captured by Helmed Horror-like, copper 'soul cages'), which included one arch-fiend (who I have pegged as Ma Yuan). These 'western' fiends probably tried to subvert their eastern counterparts (the Oni and their offspring), which is why the 'Copper Demon of Troos' (Ma Yuan) first got involved with the east, and wound-up in the Acorn of Wo Mai (thanks to Tan Chin... who just happened to be an Imaskari Artificer of old).

Thats mostly homebrew, but based on tons of tiny bits of stray lore (I mostly just wove it all together into something more cohesive). The history of the Hordelands, Imaskar, and Kara-Tur are all interrelated, and hard to separate from each other - you have to find and follow ALL the 'loose threads'.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Edited by - Markustay on 09 Dec 2016 20:52:46

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 09 Dec 2016 : 08:52:10

I suppose it kind of makes sense for the suren to come from northern KT. Thay would cement their origin as ulou.

The ulou came from northern KT and migrated along the northern mountains to western faerun ultimately. The suren were just one tribe that turned back at sossal and landed in the hagga shan.

It'll do for me.

That puts the ancient nars as a different stock but im fine with that.

Now back to the religion and politics. Any thoughts

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11829 Posts

Posted - 09 Dec 2016 : 14:05:40

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

I suppose it kind of makes sense for the suren to come from northern KT. Thay would cement their origin as ulou.

The ulou came from northern KT and migrated along the northern mountains to western faerun ultimately. The suren were just one tribe that turned back at sossal and landed in the hagga shan.

It'll do for me.

That puts the ancient nars as a different stock but im fine with that.

Now back to the religion and politics. Any thoughts

Well, I had totally forgotten this thread, but rereading, I was wondering if Chupoclops (who we had homebrewed as being at the bottom of Narathmault/Dun-Tharos/Bheuristahl) might not have actually eaten the "spirit" that was a god or a primordial. With your wondering of if there were dragon "deity" involvement in the area, I might wonder if Chupoclops might not have eaten some dragons who were "brothers and sisters" of say Tiamat and/or Bahamut... or maybe some dragons who had obtained worshippers and were on their way to godhood. Timing would have to be looked at of course.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 09 Dec 2016 : 15:06:18

Its possiblr although i think the timing is just off.

I like the idea of doing something with the dragons though. Vaasa was likely the southern border of Ostoria (for some reason the giants never ventured into the large forest of riildath).

The dragons almost certainly started to first assault the giant realms in the vilhom reach and western heartlands. Then pushed through anauroch and cormyr, then the moonsea before ending up in vaasa at the gates of the heart of Ostoria (ignoring the winter palace on hartsvale).

So that could put vaasa as the final battleground. Its certainly desolate enough to have been the largest battleground in the history of the realms.

That means Garyx perished here between the jaws of that beast created by the sarrukh. Ulutiu probably died in its northern reaches. Plus scores of giants and dragons that were only a few generation removed from Annam and his children, or Garyx.

Thats a lot of power to unleash.

And it will undoubtedly leave behind remnants. Dragon ghosts, living spells, plus plenty of other horrors.

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 09 Dec 2016 : 21:23:46

The Nar are a Gur (Raumvari) derivative. Like the Rashemi, they are no longer of 'pure' Gur stock. I would assume the Nar have a bit of Haltai (Shou/Tuigan*) blood, through their neighbors, the Khassidi (although the Khassidi are also mixed, their bloodline would contain more Tuigan in it). Think of the Nars as 'Turkic' in appearance (very slight Asian features).

Whereas the Rashemi have almost no Tuigan blood. Their admixture is mostly with Illuskan (Rus) and perhaps a smattering of Mulan (which is a mixed line itself... I really need to make a chart...). Thayan aristocracy is almost pure-blood 'Mulan' (which is a joke when you think about it), and they look down upon the Raumvari (Rashemi) native folk.

If my theories are correct, and the Gur (Raumvari) group did migrate across the north, then the Nar, the original (post-glacier) people of Vassa, the 'old folk' of the Moosea region, the Eraka (The Ride), the Mir (Tunland barbarians), and the original settlers of Seventon (the proto-Netherese) were all part of that Slavic-esque Raumvari/Gur group as well (which makes me think the Rengardt must have a lot in common with the Rashemi, considering the similar mixtures of bloodlines). Bear in mind, 'the north' is actually quite a bit smaller then it appears on a flat map - if you look at the Fonstad Atlas maps, you'll see all of those places - even the ones in K-T - are much closer together on a planetary projection.

*When I speak of 'Tuigan' in this manner, I am meaning the ethnic group that is actually older than the Tuigan, the one I call 'Haltai', which is our {FR} indigenous 'Asianesque' racial group. The purest Haltai blood would be the Wu-Haltai, and then perhaps the Tuigan tribe itself. The other Taangan tribes are heavily mixed with other bloodlines. The 'Shou' themselves are a mix of Haltai (native) and Shou (the aristocracy originating from Imaskar) blood. Its a bit confusing, because the Campaign setting calls ALL the 'eastern' peoples 'Shou', which is misleading. Thats the name of a country, and probably the name of the original interloper group that was part of Imaskar (its part of Shou Lung's history that they came "from elsewhere"). I recall having come up with a clever (new) name for the Shou (interlopers), since 3e appropriated it for the entire ethnic group, but I can't recall it at this time. Perhaps its a corruption of 'Shay'? As in, Le'Shay? They were tall, with reddish hair. Sounds like faeries to me. This is why I don't like using the word 'Shou' when talking about the bloodlines, because we are almost always talking about the indigenous (Asian-like) people, who were NOT 'Shou' (but are erroneously called thus by westerners).

Shou-Lung Translates as 'Followers of the Dragon', because they followed a Celestial Dragon who lead them to this new world. That means 'Shou' actually just means 'follower'. I really need to find that name I came up with...

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Edited by - Markustay on 09 Dec 2016 21:39:39

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 10 Dec 2016 : 16:28:52

So im thinking about changing the titles for Damara. Duke and Baron are so generic and i figure that is just the meaning in common.

So we have Bron in Voonlar which may well have come from the dalelands

The Dalesmen come from Impiltur which in turn came from Jhaamdath. Which is now a very coastal region so perhaps there is a nautical theme.

So how about Bayrunir as the title in Damara for a local lord. Derived from the thorass translation of the lord of a coastal settlement in Jhaamdath. These lords were often in charge of defence for their stretch of the coast and they would have sleek, fast galleys known as Runners.

The lord of the bay therefore became known as a Bayrunner.

This of course coincidentally is similar to the ancient title accorded to the netherese equivalent of a sheriff, which was Bey. The most famous of which was the Bey of Runlatha. When the Dalesfolk populated the Moonsea they encountered a few Netherese survivors and mingled and Bayrunir became shortened to Beyrun and then Bron. The shortened Beyrun was then spread back across the reach to the Vast and Impiltur and then Damara through trade and so Baron is now the common name for a local lord.

In the Damaran tongue it is still Bayrunir though.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 10 Dec 2016 : 16:37:29

The title of Duke, the ruler of a Duchy, is actually Duqal in native Damaran. This title comes from the sea elf word of Dukar.

Contact with the sea elves began in Jhaamdath (ironically the Jhaamdathi knew more about the sea elven empire than the land bound elves). This contact was only on a local level with fishermen trading with the elves. The Bayrunners came to know about the Dukar when they disrespected the sea and its denizens.

After Jhaamdaths fall human exposure to the sea elves continued (albeit sporadically) with Cormyr and Sembia and Impiltur and as a result the name Duqal was reinforced through trade between Cormyr and Impiltur and then passed on to Damara.

Both titles have fallen out of favour in Impiltur with the refounding of Impiltur. But the Sembia conquerors of Damara used native terms to ingratiate themselves with the locals.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 10 Dec 2016 : 16:40:57

Any thoughts. I could have gone with dwarven origin for the title but that seemed too simple.

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 10 Dec 2016 : 21:25:47

I like it, but I'd 'Realms it up' a bit more, maybe Beyr�narr, or some-such. 'Bayrunner' to me sounds a bit too much like a 'rumrunner' - it has more of a criminal ring to it.

I like 'Duqal'.

EDIT: As an aside to this thread, I just found a demipower named 'Damaran'. He's from Hepmonaland (GH) and is the demigod of vermin and cowardice, and the son of Meyanok (who's an awful lot like Set). Just thought it was an interesting coincidence of names, is all.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Edited by - Markustay on 11 Dec 2016 08:43:53

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 11 Dec 2016 : 08:40:17

Beyr�nirr it is (i wanted an i in it to move it away from Beorunna).

now does anyone have a description of Heliogabalus (original Narfelli name). im making it originally a tribal meeting site so for once there will be no ancient settlement hidden beneath the city.

lots of ancient grave sites containing the bones and personal possessions of nar horse lords (need a title for them as well). maybe a few of those horselords could be haunting the city at night.

im going to give each major city a proper writeup so if anyone has any pages in novels that heliogabalus might be detailed i would be grateful.

George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6666 Posts

Posted - 12 Dec 2016 : 03:20:22

I came up with my own Damaran titles for Impiltur.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 12 Dec 2016 : 03:27:55

I must have forgotten about those. i will read them up immediately.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 12 Dec 2016 : 09:15:12

My googlefu must be broken. I cant find Georges Damaran titles.

Anyone able to help me out.

I did find that newly elevated and landless nobles are called Barons in Impiltur so i could still use my idea for Barons in Damara as well.

Also George if you are watching have you any thoughts on a title in Suren Nar for a chieftain. Although maybe i should check out the Hordelands sourcebook.

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 12 Dec 2016 : 17:20:19

I no longer have his original (un-edited) copy of his Impiltur article, but it may be in that, in Dragon #346.

Or it just may be in his extensive notes on the place.

I've seen bits and pieces of Krash's and Eric's notes. Even a tiny bit of Ed's and Steven Schend's (though what little I've seen of Mr. Schend's was mostly through the other luminaries).

MAN... if you guys only knew how much Realmslore actually exists...

And as an aside, since I mentioned Steven Schend, I just want to point-out that during my work on my Misbegotten Realms, I found that his Iobaria (from Pathfinder/Golarion) makes a most excellent fit in the far north east, in lieu of our Narfel. I wouldn't say its 'better' than Narfel, only because we really know almost nothing about Narfel, and thus, any DM who want some material for that region can easily pillage the Kingmaker AP for Steven Schend's most-excellent Iobaria material (which, for some strange reason, feels very 'Realmsish')

.

What little interaction I've had with him concerned Iobaria, and not the Realms. At least not directly.

I'm going to have to see if I have anything usable pertaining to that. Since I hybridized the rest of Golarion into my Realms, it might not be that easy extracting just one piece of it.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Edited by - Markustay on 12 Dec 2016 17:22:16

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 12 Dec 2016 : 20:12:07

Okay I think I have found it in George's scroll

Title (in common) - Title (in Damaran)
King/Queen - Riar/Riara
Prince/Princess - Thilas/Thilassa
Duke/Duchess - Hertar/Hertala
Marquess/Marchioness - Vaerar/Vaerala
Count/Countess - Serdar/Serdassa
Baron/Baroness - Edlar/Edlassa
Knight - Orn (pl. Ornar)
Regent - Ranal
Consort - Add prefix �Al�
Queen Regent - Riaranal
Lord/Lady - Dar/Darla

I'm assuming I found them correctly and since I want Damara and Impiltur to have close links I'm going to stick with George's stuff because its always awesome.

A few of these titles I'm wondering their origin. A few could be dwarven a few could be elven (Edlar/Edlassa) and maybe a few are arthraen Nar (Orn). Perhaps there could be one or two titles that differ between Damara and Vaasa

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 12 Dec 2016 : 20:53:15

Not necessarily.

First off, its good to have different names for the same stuff from different countries. 'Universalizing' things like terminology, titles, and even country names doesn't come later to most civilizations, after a period of 'globalization'.

Plus, I don't think there really are strong connections between the two, accept, perhaps, in the past two centuries or so. There were 'savage' tribes up in Vassa (circa 1269 DR - there's a short story featuring them), and I would assume before Vassa came out from under the glacier, those same tribes would have been found in Damara, and probably of Nar/Gur decent (although they weren't using horses in Vassa - it was still far too 'boggy' after the glacier melt).

So the initial group of Damarans who occupied that land - most of which may have also been under the glacier at some point - were likely of eastern stock, whereas the Impilturrans are mostly of Jhaamdathan (Chondathan/Dathite) stock. True, large numbers of Impilturrans had settled in those lands (presumably as the conditions got better, thus pushing the Vassan tribes further north), but I think culturally they would have retained much of their uniqueness. Also, there are probably a lot of Orcish/Goblinid language influences in Vassa itself.

You may want to look to 'Nar & beyond' (old Raumathar?) for inspiration for modern Vassan (and Damaran) titles. Perhaps a hybrid of those used in Thay and those used in Impiltur?

For example, maybe a Duke/Duchess would be called a Hertharch/Hertharchess?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Edited by - Markustay on 12 Dec 2016 20:57:41

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