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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6373 Posts

Posted - 17 Dec 2015 : 13:29:39

I'm thinking a bit about what happened between the fall of jhaamdath in -255dr and the rise of various nations in the vilhon reach.

So just thinking out loud and noting things down

-255dr jhaamdath falls. It must have been in decline before that because there was a coup 20 years earlier and it once encompassed west gate and the shining plains but they appear to be independent by now.

-247 to -238 dr tyr and 200 archons appear in the lands that would be turmish and set about pacifying the remnants of jhaamdath.

The crucial thing here is that turmish is mountainous and the rest of the vilhon reach relatively flat so is it possible that the remnants of jhaamdath were concentrated only in turmish (and a possible sight of a hidden udoxia). The rest of jhaamdath would be under water or swamped and almost certainly ruined beyond repair (tsunamis flatten everything)

-243 dr Ilmaters church gets involved in the region (moving from calimshan). He may not have moved to turmish but instead concentrated more on the devastated regions that would become chondath, sespech, etc. he is a god of suffering after all.

-199dr chondathans start crossing the dragon reach to sembia, cormyr, the vast, impiltur.

-37dr alaghon in turmish is established. The first resettlement in the vilhon reach. Presumably mention of mercs from the vilhon reach at this time are all from the turmish region.

20dr iljack is founded on the southern shore of the vilhon in the region of chondath. It's the first trade centre on this side of the water and marks the end of the jhaamdath exodus. Presumably people start to return to the area and outsiders begin moving in as well. By this time id expect the geography to resemble modern vilhon and the waters receded to normal.

50dr other settlements like hlondeth are established.

75dr plague halves the population in the vilhon region.

144dr chondath is born

145 dr turmish is born and attacks hlondeth

257 dr mt ugruth erupts near hlondeth.

267dr chondath loses 10000 soldiers in the chondalwood

270dr chondath attacks turmish. War is a stalemate

278dr the population of the vilhon soars.

380dr chondath establishes settlements in sembia.

478dr plague wipes out mussum in chondath, presumably spreads.

614dr hlondeth declares independence from chondath

714 dr a new exodus of settlers from the vilhon bringing many worshippers of the dark gods to sembia

717 dr the emerald enclave defeats turmish and becomes a major power in the vilhon.

900-901dr civil war and plague in chondath.

The reason I'm looking is because I want to try and tie down a few events mentioned in passing in various books but with no dates.

For instance bane is said to have appeared in the tallest mountains of chondath according to the black book of chondath (swords of the iron legion)

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6373 Posts

Posted - 17 Dec 2015 : 20:02:53

So here's the passage from Swords of the Iron Legion

quote:
Upon his discovery o1 :he Realms, Bane held a great feast of blood, in celebration of the bloodletting to come. His talons were red and dripping with venom as he descended for the first time into the new lands, and he placed his iron foot, which burned with pillaging fire, on Burgateth, highest mountain of Chondath. And he crushed it, and burned it, so that afterwards it was but a lifeless hill of black glass, burning crystal.
Then Bane, seeing the lifelessness and ruin in the middle of such beauty smiled, and spoke with a voice like that of carrion: Let this place resonate with new songs; the cries of the warrior, the melody of clashing swords, the harmony of iron shod boots marching in unison over the stones, the crescendo of the death wail, and the chorus of the widow�s lament. Let this place be a tapestry upon which I shall paint new scenes, and blood and ash shall be my pigments. These are the things that I cherish, and they shall dominate this place, as they do wherever the hearts of men are weak and quick to desire. The four winds shall spread these things to every corner of this land, and no creature shall evade them. This place is a special symbol of my domination, and I shall name it Thurgabanteth, the Hill of Black Ruin. It is my footstool, a portent of my final victory.�
Satisfied, Bane retreated to his domain, and watched with hateful eyes as his terrible seed began its work.
From the Black Tome of Chondath

Now Thurgabanteth in the adventure is located near Timindar which is on the northern edge of the Chondalwood.

The Maerthwatch are a series of low rugged hills and aren't too far from Timindar (probably a few days travel).

Burgateth is described as the highest mountain in Chondath and is presumably where Bane entered the area. The Akanapeaks are meant to be very high and form the border between Chondath and Chessenta today, so perhaps Bane arrived in the Akanapeaks (his church is strong in Mourktar so arriving halfway between the two makes sense).

Now for once I am taking this legend as literal, and that Bane physically arrived in the Vilhon Reach.

It sounds like he sparked a war of some kind, and then disappeared (probably ascending to godhood). So the big question is at what point in time in the Vilhon Reach did this happen.

We know Bane and the Dark Three went on a few adventures killing primordial beings for their power. George has placed Bhaal at the site of Ascore and Jergal's ritual.

It is likely that in the centuries after that the three went to the outer planes to confront him for his power. They are then probably the most powerful mortals ever to have existed and so now need to acquire a worshipper base to become fully fledged gods.

So cue a portal opening to the Vilhon Reach where they terrorise the populace and cause as much havoc as they can to gain fear and worship.

The big question is when did the Dark Three arrive in the Vilhon Reach. Could it be somewhere around -199 DR when the exodus from fallen Jhaamdath reached its peak and people fled across the sea to Cormyr, Sembia, etc.

Could it be around 75 DR when a big plague halves the population (the work of Talona's clergy perhaps).

Around 257 DR when the mount Ugruth erupts (likely causing untold ecological damage), then 10 years later Chondath loses 10000 soldiers in the Chondalwood. Then Chondath attacks Turmish and the war ends in stalemate.

I think the period from 257 DR onwards sounds like a likely time. Bane's clergy are all about supporting tyrants and the sudden warmongering could be influenced by them. Perhaps mount Ugruth is actually Burgateth where Bane arrived (Thurgabanteth might just mean south of the burned mountain - Burgateth meaning Burned Mountain).

Edited by - Gary Dallison on 17 Dec 2015 20:23:12

Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
605 Posts

Posted - 19 Dec 2015 : 14:26:38

I am just doing the same research on my own :-) but as I have already made some changes we will probably differ.
In my take Jhaamtath's fall was caused by Bane's involvement where he pushed their military leader to make the coup and during his era started large expansion to take dominion over more land (it was his first large involvement after his ascension). It was thwarted by Umberlee who helped elves "defend" forest by summoning tsunami on Jhaamdath (haven't explained this move from her yet). To clear the land of Bane's influence the good gods form a Triad and start a Procession of Justice. There is also quite an influence from Talona as this land will be bombarded by plagues (My explanation is that she is trying to get back her influence in this region which she had a long time ago as a patron of swamp people living in the land of future Sea of the Fallen Stars - now occupying astral sea and Limbo as Gith's people). Later there is growing influence of neutral party known as Emerald Enclave trying to stabilize the region. For me the rest of the Dark Trio was mainly interested in other regions and only support Bane against Triad. Later once Bane resurrected I like the idea of him forming new trio with Tiamat and Loviatar called Dark Triad and moving their main stage to Damara and Implitur.

I know lot of people do not like the diefic soap opera but I tend to think about it in manner of indirect influence of their fallowers into this clash of belief. So I do not picture Bane battling Lathander but both parties sending their minions in this game of divine chess (Sava). I do not understand on the other hand that lot of people have their heroes battle gods directly - sometimes even as part of official adventures... Tiamat, Orcus, Demogorgon they all should have smashed any mortals regardles of edition.

On side - your quote from Swords begins "upon Bane's dicovery of the Realms..." - he was a mortal IN Realms cannonicaly before his ascension :-)

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6373 Posts

Posted - 19 Dec 2015 : 15:39:50

I am one of those strictly against the deific soap opera but at the same time I do hope to decide upon the birth of a number of religions (and the associated deities).
One thing I'm wondering about is silvanus and malar, both gods obviously from the vilhon region but that didn't fit the jhaamdath pantheon and so maybe were born from it ashes.
Anyone know if there were any elves ever living in the gulthmere forest. I don't see how it couldn't have given the proximity to nikerymath. I'm hoping for perhaps some wild elves, I can work with that to start off silvanus and malar in -255 dr.

Also I wonder about the tsunami. Did it only affect the vilhon reach or would it have reached the gulthmere forest and the shining plains as well.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6373 Posts

Posted - 19 Dec 2015 : 19:12:40

The concentration of silvanus worshippers in gulthmere forest can't be a coincidence, plus the congregation of those worshippers was very soon after the tsunami and probably before the merging of the pantheons.

So what if the elves of the satyrwood were not the only ones to perform high magic that day. What if the elves of gulthmere were warned about the coming catastrophe and tried their own ritual to save themselves. I don't know why but I'm imagining them as wild and wood elves who I realise aren't the greatest at magic but that doesn't mean all of them are terrible at it. Also I note that much of the power of the elves was destroyed by jhaamdath over the years and that's why nikerymath took such drastic action.

So a bunch of youngish and inexperienced elves try their collective hands at a high magic ritual of transformation and end up merging themselves with the forest and various beings in it (for instance a treant, and a fey ape like creature known as the stalker)

eeorey
Seeker

Bulgaria
96 Posts

Posted - 19 Dec 2015 : 19:25:44

It seems like before the war with Jhaamdath the elves in the area lived more like the green elves during and before the crown wars, not in nomadic clans and small tree villages, but in forest cities and possessed the same kind of magic, more arcane than druidic. Nikerymath would likely have been closer to what Myth Drannor was than to what for instance the High Forest is today, an actual nation rather than a loose confederation of different clans/tribes of copper/wild elves.
The second edition "Empires of the Shining Sea" says that Jhaamdathan forces destroyed all but one city, so they did have at least a few of those. And had killed 9/10 of the population, the war however lasted from -276 to -255, which likely means that
Nikerymath had a sizable population as there were elves enough left to continue to attack the survivors of the destruction of Jhaamdath and prevent them from rebuilding for quite a while.
I highly doubt that these elves were "inexperienced" in using high magic before and during the war, however chances are it was that war and the last of them sacrificing themselves in the ritual that put them in what is basically the stone age.

TBeholder
Great Reader

2450 Posts

Posted - 20 Dec 2015 : 05:53:40

quote:
Originally posted by eeorey

I highly doubt that these elves were "inexperienced" in using high magic before and during the war, however chances are it was that war and the last of them sacrificing themselves in the ritual that put them in what is basically the stone age.

Yup, High Magic always was a high-risk option. And after Karsus it got much worse.
Of course, there's also that they did it ~~being typical elves~~ knowing or caring little about the water they messed with and what's in it, and in process destroyed Coryselmal and made area around it mostly uninhabitable for a while - thus, ironically, ended the rule of sea elves in Ser�s.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6373 Posts

Posted - 20 Dec 2015 : 09:14:12

Well nikerymath was separated into smaller forests long before the fall of jhaamdath so how they lived at the time of the fall may well be very different to its height. Certainly the war from -276 to -255 was the final decline. But it was the satyrwood (chondalwood) that bore the brunt of Jhaamdath's ire and it was the elves of the satyrwood that called the elves of the satyrwood that created the tsunami (well the high mages probably acted alone).
So the gulthmere at the time could have been separated from nikerymath and it's culture perhaps since the crown wars. They would have been a few clans (again I'm thinking wild elf but I don't know why) and when they got word of the tsunami they panicked. Their own mages could have been either really ancient or little better than initiates (probably both).
So while the high mages of satyrwood worked powerful magics that doomed themselves and jhaamdath, the nature loving wild elves of gulthmere tried to save themselves and the wood.
Unfortunately the old high Mage over estimated his health and abilities and he died during the ritual. His initiates struggled to control the magic and it consumed every elf in the wood (they were all gathered there anyway to help and bear witness, although probably little more than a thousand elves were present).
So the personalities of the elves were merged with the forest which survived the tsunami. The treant guardian became an arakhor of sorts and gained the good traits of the elves and their knowledge. The stalker gained the bad traits and hunting instinct of the elves making him an unparalleled killer

Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
605 Posts

Posted - 20 Dec 2015 : 14:56:22

While you are at it...Does anybody know what is so important in Gulthmere forest that Nibanon fought with Malar (and Won!!!) about it. He even returned there during ToT to guard this forest from Malar...I haven't been able to crack this mystery so far.

eeorey
Seeker

Bulgaria
96 Posts

Posted - 20 Dec 2015 : 17:01:30

quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

While you are at it...Does anybody know what is so important in Gulthmere forest that Nibanon fought with Malar (and Won!!!) about it. He even returned there during ToT to guard this forest from Malar...I haven't been able to crack this mystery so far.

Wemics and lions live either in or near it. There were lions there in "The Reaver" novel and there is mention of Wemics living in the Shining Plains south of it.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6373 Posts

Posted - 20 Dec 2015 : 21:17:51

Well there is less about jhaamdath and it's environs than almost any of the ancient realms so if you want something there you will have to make it up.

I'm doing my own rewrites and so I have no problem with mixing things up a bit. So I might make silvanus a non god and have his physical being as part of the gulthmere forest (you can have a church without a god, even easier to do when most clergy are Druids).

I'm basically thinking of turning the gulthmere forest into the material world equivalent of a planar touchstone and silvanus is sat right on top of it. It's the results of the elven meddling with magic to survive the tsunami.

Nobanion could even be the physical manifestation/repository of the good parts of elven character (courage, loyalty, etc), whereas silvanus is the manifestation/repository of elf knowledge. Malar is of course the bad bits of elven psyche that the arrogant elders either did not believe exist or did not believe would be strong enough to matter.

The only problem is nobanions presence in the shaar but thankfully the shoon are close enough to carry any new lion god religion there through trade

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6373 Posts

Posted - 20 Dec 2015 : 21:42:44

The only other things known, interesting, and unaccounted for that spring to mind regarding Jhaamdath are the Udoxias.

I don't think it has ever been stated what they do, or where they are, but I'm wondering, given Jhaamdath's basis in psionics if their magic did not revolve around awakening talent and controlling that talent within people.

I don't actually think of psionics as the same as DnD (because I don't use DnD anymore) and prefer to think of them as just wild talents (magically powers inherent to people), but I don't see that as irreconcilable with psionics, its just that the talents of Jhaamdath would be skewed towards controlling the mind and body - telepathy, telekinesis, and other magic abilities which would probably be easy to make into spells.

So what if the udoxias blanketed an area in saturated magic, of a particular type. And like the Annasherion of Raven's Bluff or like the mythallars of Netheril, this actually awoke wild talents in the population. More than that though it acted as a free repository for certain powers so those attuned to it (there are varying degrees of attunement so the most trusted and most attuned gain access to the most powerful powers) can access these powers whenever they want.

Kind of like a mythallar but for people rather than items.

Now if only the events surrounding Borem of the lake of boiling mud hadn't happened in -359 (Year of Boiling Moats) then Borem and the lake could have been caused by a Udoxia or mythallar. But instead some other link is needed.

However I'm pretty sure Borem appeared in the Lake of the Snake and the river Reza is now the River Reddansyr. Kisonraathiisar was the ruler over that region and he reports the savages fled following Borem's death, so it is possible they fled south and the mingling of the Jhaamdathi and Netherese pantheons began earlier than I at first thought.

Also the Cult of Jathiman is an odd name. Anyone heard of Jathiman anywhere?

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36845 Posts

Posted - 20 Dec 2015 : 22:29:53

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

The only other things known, interesting, and unaccounted for that spring to mind regarding Jhaamdath are the Udoxias.

I don't think it has ever been stated what they do, or where they are, but I'm wondering, given Jhaamdath's basis in psionics if their magic did not revolve around awakening talent and controlling that talent within people.

There was an udoxias in each of Jhaamdath's twelve cities.

As for what they do, we have the words of Ed Bonny, a Realms designer who worked on Lost Empires of Faer�n:

quote:
Originally posted by edbonny

udoxias (sing. & pl.) (pronounced yoo-DOAKS-ee-yas) A powerful artifact of the Jhaamdathan empire. There were 12 udoxias in all - one for each city. Each udoxias was imbued with the powers of one psionic discipline or (in later years) psionic subdiscipline.

Psionic beings in mental contact with a udoxias gained access to any psionic powers or feats contained within the udoxias. Normally only one power or feat could be tapped at a time but the gained ability could be swapped out for another so long as contact was maintained by the user.

Creating a udoxias was an epic task taking years. It required the empire's greatest minds. First multiple uses of the psionic power true creation were employed to create a huge, flawless precious gemstone. Udoxias were typically 20 feet in diameter and typically a diamond, emerald, ruby or sapphire. Then using the epic psionic power, create udoxias, a psion could begin imbuing the artifact with powers and abilities. The effort was nearly always communal and required all participants to link mentally using metaconcert.

Udoxias have been wrongly compared to mythals and mythallars. For one, udoxias were not under the control of a government or a leader. Also, the powers and abilities granted by a udoxias could be tapped by anyone with psionic power and the Udoxian Contact feat. Thirdly, the range of a udoxias extended for miles beyond a city's limits.

(The above was lifted from Ed Bonny's LEOF: Enhanced Jhaamdathan Timeline

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6373 Posts

Posted - 21 Dec 2015 : 08:33:41

Awesome link wooly thank you, I can't believe I have never seen that before. I will have to trawl ed bonnys posts to see what other goodies I can find.

Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe

300 Posts

Posted - 23 Dec 2015 : 14:23:43

Thanks for finding that piece of Lore from 'Swords of the Iron Legion', Dazzlerdal... I know I'm dropping into this scroll a bit late, but by the way the quote begins "Upon Bane's discovery of the Realms" that makes me think that this may be Bane's first exercise of Divine Power after his ascension to godhood...

To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates

Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6373 Posts

Posted - 23 Dec 2015 : 15:20:55

Well I tend to take those things as non literal. It was likely Banes first appearance in the vilhon region (his slaying of Borem was several centuries earlier and likely forgotten and unknown given the context).
Plus the dark three had other names prior to their ascension and probably used them instead if their deific names (which would help being shorter and more memorable).

The black book of chondath may even have been a religious text of banes church and so may contain a lot of propaganda (probably why it made no mention of Bhaal or myrkul).

I'm leaning toward bane appearing in the vilhon around 200 dr after they just took Jergals divinity and are fresh from the outer planes, full of divine energy (probably super charged demipowers) and looking to establish a formal church to get enough stable deliveries of energy to keep them as divine beings.

200 dr is before most mentions of religions of the dark three (except for -87 dr and clan fyrsson in tethyr and that could be explained by cult of personalities being carried south during netherils diaspora as the dark three were the greatest anti heroes of the shadowed age).
200 dr is late enough to have missed the procession of justice and therefore survive tyrs wrath.
200 dr is earlier to involve lathanders forming church and the beginnings of the dawn cataclysm (where his church try to eliminate evil gods from the merging pantheons).

200 dr is also the age st sollars likely left vilhon to travel to impiltur and I've read somewhere the ilmatari suffered terribly under tyrants and that many theocracies were destroyed during the dawn cataclysm.

So the story I'm going with is that the dark three arrive near the akanapeaks and conquer the rebuilding realms of the reach (many centred around isolated monasteries which were the most likely places to survive the tsunami and ilmatari would have built some when they arrived). The ilmatari were persecuted and fled. Then the people of the reach must have rose up against the dark three. I'm thinking the tyrrans in the land that would be turmish got involved but mostly it was a lathanderite crusade. They forced out the dark three and their forces (the dark three had already split up and moved on by that time - bane went to chessenta).

The lathanderite crusade was a bit over zealous and after ousting the dark three they then started on all the evil gods and there allies (basically anyone that objected to the witch hunt) so valigorns last set of worshippers were killed, and so were murdane's who probably reasoned that good cannot exist without evil and sided with valigorns followers against the foreign invaders and thus were also killed. Without any followers the gods perish.

Basically playing out the dawn cataclysm on faerun in a time and place undefined by history and using the followers rather than the gods themselves. Of course the dark three survive because their worship goes underground and they move to regions that are incorporated into the faerunian pantheon shortly after.

Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe

300 Posts

Posted - 23 Dec 2015 : 18:11:18

That time frame is pretty interesting, and you make a good point about taking the quote within the context of the Black Book. Are you thinking of somehow connecting Dharien's coup with the Dark Three?

To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates

Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6373 Posts

Posted - 23 Dec 2015 : 18:42:49

It's certainly possible but his coup was in -276 which is 500 years earlier to when I was thinking the dark three arrived in the vilhon reach as divine beings.

After the fall of netheril I think the dark three wandered around trying to generate enough followers to become gods, but they failed. These cults likely centred on the western heartlands and the dragon coast and could easily have spread elsewhere (like to tethyr and jhaamdath).

The trio probably realised after a while that they needed something extra to become real gods and so went back to ascore to get to Jergals divine realm and steal his divinity.

Before that happened they could have done anything though, including foment insurrection in jhaamdath. In fact given that we know Bhaal and myrkuls true identity why not have bane as dharien elfbane

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6373 Posts

Posted - 23 Dec 2015 : 21:34:58

Also I wonder if the realm Torm served in was not in the Vilhon Reach rather than the Border Kingdoms (which is why no one has found it yet). It seems so much more logical for that realm to be a precursor to Turmish which Tyr's procession of justice helped come into being by eradicating the imperial remnants of Jhaamdath and allowing law and order to return to the region.

Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe

300 Posts

Posted - 24 Dec 2015 : 15:12:12

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Before that happened they could have done anything though, including foment insurrection in jhaamdath. In fact given that we know Bhaal and myrkuls true identity why not have bane as dharien elfbane

This is certainly a possibility worth considering... and being Psionic Warrior would fit the description of Bane in the Knucklebones Legend. I also think characterizing the ascension of the Dead Three, as almost a type of "necessary" evil tied to the emergence of the Age of Humanity... The concepts of Fear & Tyranny also fit very well thematically with Psionic Magic.

To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates

Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6373 Posts

Posted - 24 Dec 2015 : 18:20:13

Well reading through some of ed bonnys post it seems that jhaamdath was a nation of two halves. The psiarchs that sought peace and expansion of the mind. Then there were the imperialists who wanted to expand Jhaamdath's physical borders.

Now I'm guessing the psiarchs were how we imagine powerful psionic beings, a human with a massive brain and huge mental power but little physical strength.

The imperialists were probably just typical soldier types that wanted to fight and conquer. And while most people in jhaamdath might have psionic ability, I'm sure in the same way as netheril only a select few were powerful in their abilities.

So bane probably helped the imperialist seize power in a military coup by helping them resist the power of the psiarchs and I reckon he did that through strict discipline. Bane of course being a hugely powerful mortal at that time (infused with the power of several primordials) was probably immune to their mind powers.

At least that's just how I imagine it happening. Yes it is just as probable that dharien wasn't bane, but it would be nice to have some detail to banes deeds, and the actions of jhaamdath between -276 and -255 certainly fit his modus operandi, oppression, persecution, genocide, and of course tyranny

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11931 Posts

Posted - 25 Dec 2015 : 13:40:33

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Well I tend to take those things as non literal. It was likely Banes first appearance in the vilhon region (his slaying of Borem was several centuries earlier and likely forgotten and unknown given the context).
Plus the dark three had other names prior to their ascension and probably used them instead if their deific names (which would help being shorter and more memorable).

We are lead to believe that Myrkul at least is using his mortal name. That being said, its not certain, and I'm betting you're right when it comes to "Bane".

From the wiki for Myrkul, which came from some 4e lore in a dungeon modul.
"As a mortal, Myrkul's full name and title is said to have been Myrkul Bey al-Kursi, Crown Prince of Murgh�m"

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11931 Posts

Posted - 25 Dec 2015 : 13:53:38

On the ascension of the Dark Three, personally I prefer that it happened just prior to Karsus' Folly. I remember it being discussed here some years back

http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8431&whichpage=2

My thoughts are that the Bane, Bhaal, Myrkul, AND Mellifleur fiasco made Karsus jealous, after all none of them were from Netheril. If Mellifleur's ascension was somehow tied to Bane's as a magical accident, AND if Mellifleur was from Narfell (in the Damara/Vaasa area)... then we may also have a reason for Larloch's enclave crashing over in Narfell, and why he learned some of the secrets to becoming such a powerful lich.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6373 Posts

Posted - 25 Dec 2015 : 15:44:45

Well George kind of killed off the dark three ascending before -339 with his awesome article about jergal. And it was so good I came up with a horrible monster in ascore, reasons why jergal gave up his divinity, why the dark three tried to take it and how, and it all worked in the context of knuckle bones but without being obviously a fable.

But then again George's stuff isn't officially canon so I'm sure WoTC will overwrite it later.

As for banes story. Myrkul is linked to the old empires, Bhaal is linked to netheril, that leaves only one human empire left at this time (except narfell and raumathar but they don't strike me as bane). Now how this links in with banes supposed fiendish heritage and other world origin I don't know, but he doesn't have to be from jhaamdath, he just strikes me as having similar aims and methods as dharien that they could be the same person.

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11931 Posts

Posted - 26 Dec 2015 : 02:01:46

Where's the reference to Emperor Dharien of Jhaamdath having the last name Elfbane (just curious)? Along those lines, we do have "Dragonsbane" as being a known noble name in the realms, and if Jhaamdath came over to Impiltur & later Damara, that bloodline could be seen extending back to Jhaamdath. I don't know if I like the idea, but it would be interesting if the noble paladin bloodline that came to rule Damara could be linked back to the blood of the god Bane.

Oh, and what article on Jergal? I'd be interested in reading it.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6373 Posts

Posted - 26 Dec 2015 : 08:47:53

Well I just added the title to highlight where banes name might have originated. I thought it was a fitting title given that he was responsible for the destruction of two elven nations.

As for George's article, it's called "The Lord of the end of everything" and it should be on the realms secretariat. If not then pm me with your email address and I'll send you a copy

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11931 Posts

Posted - 26 Dec 2015 : 13:29:21

Hmmm, I like how George's article started, but not necessarily the end, but this could be colored by my own wishes. I find it kind of cheesy that Jergal had his people start his ritual at the same time that Karsus started his own. I also don't like the idea that Bhaal started out as a netherese archwizard who then later becomes an assassin.

Perhaps a better ending would be that Jergal had foreseen that Karsus would enact a spell to steal the divinity of the "greatest of the Netherese deities", and he either believed said deity to be himself (because gods aren't omniscient).... or he didn't foresee Karsus' folly, and assumed other Netherese would quickly follow suit... and he put forth a plan to change himself from being a deity to being something else of lesser power but safe from such depredations (or still a deity but lacking any portfolios anyone would want, since this was in a time where worship energy wasn't required for deities to survive).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6373 Posts

Posted - 26 Dec 2015 : 20:39:59

Well I read the archwizards as candidates for the ritual being a generalisation based mostly on the power level needed to participate in the code of reversion. In my continuation of George's work I only had most of them be archwizards. Tharlagaunt Bale to me was a low netherese arcanist of tremendous skill (as all the candidates were having been touched by the divine in some way - mostly Jergal) who chose not to be an archwizard (which were almost exclusively netherese and not low netherese) and instead turned his talents to assassination, specialising in archwizard assassination. He became a notorious and untouchable assassin who was almost of celebrity status among Netheril's culture. Even the Archwizards would cosy up to him to learn his methods and hopefully become friendly enough with him so he wouldn't take a contract on their head (when their rival archwizards put one up that is).

As for Jergal and Karsus etc. The way I read it is that Jergal brought together the candidates to take part in a massive ritual. At the time Netheril was on its last legs, the desert had swallowed all the land between Ascore Bay and the Myconid Forest. Monsters were pouring out of the lands around the desert and swarming Netheril's territory. Phaerimm and their guerrilla squads were taking out Netheril's defences one by one.

So Jergal offered the candidates a chance to save Netheril by lying to them that the ritual would save Netheril and make each of them gods. Whether that lie and manipulation was overt or not is up to you. I prefer to think he was manipulating the candidates from the shadows, using Arthindol/the terraseer at first as his go-between, and whispering to each in his dreams and providing visions. Only at the very last minute (after ioulaum and Karsus left) did he reveal himself and his divine vessel (the primary avatar that housed most of his energy) that would be partaking in the ritual.

So the 12 candidates worked with the dwarves to excavate and restore the lost pyramids of Eril that lay beneath Ascore. This probably took 50 years or more.

In the meantime, Arthindol discovered what Jergal was really doing and managed to persuade Ioulaum and Karsus that the ritual was a fake and bad things would happen and Netheril would not be saved.

Ioulaum being a genius seemingly retreated altogether and probably realised Netheril could not be saved.

Karsus however was stark raving mad. His actions could not be predicted, even by a god. He attempted something no one had ever done before and something no one even though possible, using his own unique magic. Remember Jergal created the Nether Scrolls and therefore the Weave, he probably knew with certainty the extents of his own creation, but hadn't banked on it evolving and becoming alive.

Karsus did what was never possible before, and he did it to try and beat Jergal and stop whatever ritual he was performing as well as to save Netheril by himself. Karsus' goal was to become the god of magic, save Netheril, and stop Jergal from whatever he was doing.

Did Jergal get to cast his ritual unmolested. I doubt it, in my continuation the Code of Reversion was assaulted by Sarrukh agents and phaerimm agents and probably agents sent by Karsus as well.

Did Karsus get to cast his spell unmolested, not in my version, and not in canon either. The lichlord from the adventure "How the Mighty Are Fallen" was working against Karsus and Netheril. I have always thought the Lichlord was Aumvor, and Aumvor has the Tear of Ascore in his possession. I simply made the Tear of Ascore be Jergal's phylactery of sorts from when he was an undead (not an actual phylactery because he was never a lich, but something that held his soul).

Through the Tear, Jergal manipulated Aumvor into occupying Karsus and Netheril with a war while Jergal's ritual went ahead. But even Jergal could not predict what the insane and brilliant Karsus was doing.

That's all my interpretation of course. I found the article George wrote to be most illuminating. It filled in the last few holes with Netheril's story and allowed me to finish my own (I just need to complete the detail).

I don't go for the god nonsense or meta story that has crept in over the years (especially anything involving ao or a changing of how deities work), it makes no sense for a deity to exist without worship.

The ritual may have succeeded even without Karsus and Ioulaum, but Karsus' spell interrupted all magic and so ultimately the ritual was a failure.

I have Jergal merging with the spellweavers of Eril that he was trying to restore, and the 7 candidates who died, and a few phaerimm that tried to interrupt the ritual. The result was a horrifically insane god like being of many parts tied to Ascore and the Anauroch desert.

The sharn didn't create the Sharnwall, it was Jergal in this horrific state, split into 13 multipartite beings (one beneath each pyramid) that resembled jet black multi armed pan dimensional beings with many mouths (which look a lot like a sharn, or a phaerimm crossed with a spellweaver). The reason Jergal was somnolent and apathetic from a divine point of view is that he was half mad most of the time and split between too many bodies with too many personalities vying for supremacy. When the candidates gained supremacy briefly they created the sharnwall. When Jergal gained supremacy briefly he tried to free himself from his condition. At all other times he was at war with himself.

That is why he helped the dark three in their quest for godhood by giving them a portion of his divine self (in his more lucid moments he aided them anyway). Because the only way he could be himself once more was to discard his tainted divinity that enabled him to exist as multiple beings (every god can have multiple avatars). When his divinity was gone who would be Jergal once more.

That means for me Jergal isn't actually a god in the modern realms anymore, but I haven't found anything that interferes with that. He has few followers or worshippers and exists mostly to serve the Lord of the Dead, he can do that as a uniquely powerful spellweaver just as well as he could do it if it were a god.

Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe

300 Posts

Posted - 27 Dec 2015 : 13:50:57

I recall reading somewhere about Spellweavers reproducing into 6 entities when they've consumed a requisite amount of power/magic items. Is it worth considering a concept that aside from Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul, there Three others that received power from Jergal? Therefore removing his divinity via a method similar to Spellweaver reproduction... The Dark Three could have been the last Three or the first Three to receive power from him... Then Jergal could truly become a divine "Ghost in the Machine" eternally tied to the Crystal Spire in the Fugue Plane.

To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates

Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6373 Posts

Posted - 27 Dec 2015 : 14:35:52

Ooh I do like that idea, if anyone can post the source I'd be very interested in reading it

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11931 Posts

Posted - 28 Dec 2015 : 02:10:06

quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad

I recall reading somewhere about Spellweavers reproducing into 6 entities when they've consumed a requisite amount of power/magic items. Is it worth considering a concept that aside from Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul, there Three others that received power from Jergal? Therefore removing his divinity via a method similar to Spellweaver reproduction... The Dark Three could have been the last Three or the first Three to receive power from him... Then Jergal could truly become a divine "Ghost in the Machine" eternally tied to the Crystal Spire in the Fugue Plane.

Hmmm, interesting, any more info on this? What article? One of the three others might be Mellifleur.... hell, I could buy into Karsus' Folly being something Jergal led him into in this way. That would leave one more risen divinity (which could be someone who rose and fell over a short span).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

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