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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Dec 2015 : 00:29:04
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When do you think the Tree of Souls will be planted on Faerun or will it ever?
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“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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BenN
Senior Scribe
Japan
382 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2015 : 00:39:15
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It's already in Faerun; it was planted in Myth Drannor after the city was recaptured by the Elven Crusade.
It avoided being pancaked by the falling Shade city by baelnorn forming some sort of magical cone over it.
I'm interested to know what the elves intend to do about it now, seeing as Myth Drannor has been (temporarily) abandoned. Presumably the refugees, after arriving in Evereska, don't do a collective face-palm & say "Doh! We left the tree behind! Knew we'd forgotten something in the rush!" |
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obubison1
Acolyte
2 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2015 : 01:04:00
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Perhaps they brought some seedlings with them and are going to start anew. Then they can defend the new seedlings against all comers.
All sorts of possibilities. |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2015 : 13:45:01
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Elves don't have souls.
What's this tree?
forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Tree_of_Souls
Weird.
:) |
YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2015 : 15:57:08
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| What exactly is the purpose of this tree? (seriously) |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2015 : 04:06:46
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quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
Elves don't have souls.
What's this tree?
forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Tree_of_Souls
Weird.
:)
If you want to get technical, there are sources that say elves call their souls "spirits" rather than souls, but they are in essence a soul.
Unless you're claiming elves are soulless people lol.
But anyway, yes there is also a Tree of Souls in Myth Drannor, and while the city was recently destroyed, I read somewhere (maybe here) that the Tree survived. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3807 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2015 : 04:20:24
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Unless you're claiming elves are soulless people lol.
It's a scientifically proven fact, everybody knows that 
quote:
But anyway, yes there is also a Tree of Souls in Myth Drannor, and while the city was recently destroyed, I read somewhere (maybe here) that the Tree survived.
Ed said that here, and it was said again in an article posted on WotC's site. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2015 : 04:25:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Unless you're claiming elves are soulless people lol.
It's a scientifically proven fact, everybody knows that
quote:
But anyway, yes there is also a Tree of Souls in Myth Drannor, and while the city was recently destroyed, I read somewhere (maybe here) that the Tree survived.
Ed said that here, and it was said again in an article posted on WotC's site.
Lol I knew a comment like that was coming . I had a feeling the original comment was meant to be snarky, but I commented anyway lol.
I seem to remember Ed saying it, yes (I don't go on the WotC site much). |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3807 Posts |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2015 : 04:33:13
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| Oh that article. Yeah there was a link to that posted in another forum, and I read it then. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2015 : 01:03:03
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
Elves don't have souls.
What's this tree?
forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Tree_of_Souls
Weird.
:)
If you want to get technical, there are sources that say elves call their souls "spirits" rather than souls, but they are in essence a soul.
Unless you're claiming elves are soulless people lol.
But anyway, yes there is also a Tree of Souls in Myth Drannor, and while the city was recently destroyed, I read somewhere (maybe here) that the Tree survived.
No, no, you have it right. I am indeed referring to the AD&D 1st edition concept that elves have spirits rather than souls, and thus cannot be brought back from death by certain spells.
So there is a metaphysical difference and that does show in game mechanics.
But as you say, for most purposes the difference remains technical.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2015 : 01:07:30
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| Elves can be resurrected (Fflar Starbow was), but that was a special spell, and like you said, certain spells won't work. And most elves abhor the idea of recalling a soul (or spirit) from Arvandor/Arianth. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2015 : 01:48:44
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Elves can be resurrected (Fflar Starbow was), but that was a special spell, and like you said, certain spells won't work. And most elves abhor the idea of recalling a soul (or spirit) from Arvandor/Arianth.
I looked it up. D&DG/ L&L page 10,
Obviously, this only applies in a given campaign if the DM is using those rules.
You seem like one of the go-to experts on FR elves.
Thanks for the info.
I looked up the character you mentioned.
forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Fflar_Starbrow_Melruth
Sounds fun!
Following links in that article, I see 3E through 4E FR did a lot with the elves in the central part of Faerun. Myth Drannor was restored, only to having a flying city dropped on it. Ouch.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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kysus
Learned Scribe
USA
114 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2015 : 02:05:58
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you can find info on the Tree of souls in Elves of Evermeet book pg 76.
Im guessing it is called that because it is said to hold the essences of alot of elves within it, supposedly to help rebuild elven civilization. And as far as powers go it states that it can act as a gate between the tree and evermeet as well as allowing the casting of high magic with out penalties within so many miles of the tree. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2015 : 02:42:37
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quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Elves can be resurrected (Fflar Starbow was), but that was a special spell, and like you said, certain spells won't work. And most elves abhor the idea of recalling a soul (or spirit) from Arvandor/Arianth.
I looked it up. D&DG/ L&L page 10,
Obviously, this only applies in a given campaign if the DM is using those rules.
You seem like one of the go-to experts on FR elves.
Thanks for the info.
I looked up the character you mentioned.
forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Fflar_Starbrow_Melruth
Sounds fun!
Following links in that article, I see 3E through 4E FR did a lot with the elves in the central part of Faerun. Myth Drannor was restored, only to having a flying city dropped on it. Ouch.
Haha well I am sure there are scribes here who know more than I, but the elves and the gods (particularly the Seldarine), are my favorite aspects of the Realms, so my "expertise", such as they are, lie mostly in those areas. Thanks for the compliment 
And yes, Shade fell on Myth Drannor. According to the SCAG, it was completely destroyed, but according to Ed, it wasn't -entirely- destroyed, so we'll see.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2015 : 04:20:04
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Maybe some parts survived as ruins underground/ buried under the wreckage of Shade.
And perhaps shadow magic spilled out into the ruins of both cities, mutating creatures anc creating weird magic zones.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1294 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2015 : 16:34:43
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| It's obvious (to me) that the Sundering was meant to try to bring back the entire Realms to as close to its 1st/2nd edition era as possible, which means Myth Drannor is a crazy ruin filled with scary demons/devils/fiends ready for adventurers to plunder the magic items left behind when the city was destroyed/abandoned. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2015 : 16:37:57
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| That was my thinking too, which I'm disappointed about, to be honest, because it completely nullifies the restoration. But I also know a lot of people wanted it to remain in ruins. I think there could have been a compromise. Myth Drannor had underground layers that were good adventuring sites, not to mention the surrounding area. I think they could have provided "places to pillage" without destroying the city -again-. My hope is that it wasn't entirely destroyed, and will be reclaimed. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3807 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2015 : 17:11:56
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I think there could have been a compromise. Myth Drannor had underground layers that were good adventuring sites, not to mention the surrounding area. I think they could have provided "places to pillage" without destroying the city -again-. My hope is that it wasn't entirely destroyed, and will be reclaimed.
Same. I wanted a ''we're rebuilding once again and trying to reclaim the city, but we're in dire need of help for that'' kind of situation. Of course, depending on the kind of person the PCs are, they could choose to just (try to) raid the ruins, or actually help the elves. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36845 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2015 : 18:25:07
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My preference would have been that only a small, outlying section of the city was cleansed and made habitable. That could serve as a base for the PCs, as they range further and further afield from there as part of the whole reclamation process. The PCs would be like the forward guys, and then someone would come in behind them to actually make the area habitable, after the PCs had killed the lurking nastybads.
Spun that say, the actual restoration of the city could have taken decades. It would have given the elves their Return, but kept the area viable for adventuring. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3807 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2015 : 18:35:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
My preference would have been that only a small, outlying section of the city was cleansed and made habitable. That could serve as a base for the PCs, as they range further and further afield from there as part of the whole reclamation process. The PCs would be like the forward guys, and then someone would come in behind them to actually make the area habitable, after the PCs had killed the lurking nastybads.
Spun that say, the actual restoration of the city could have taken decades. It would have given the elves their Return, but kept the area viable for adventuring.
Yes, that's what I would have liked as well. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2015 : 20:37:29
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If I were running FR, I would not use any of that metaplot stuff about a restoration of Myth Drannor or any reversal of the Retreat.
Ending the Retreat seems rather arbitrary and forced to me. ( But this may be because I have not actually read enough of the 3E materials to get a sense of how it was handled. ) To me, it looks as if the elves on the whole had recognized that they were losing ground and power in Faerun, and began a long withdrawal. Then, quite suddenly, a dramatic reversal of policy within a time frame that would be very brief even for a much short lived race.
Why?
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 07 Dec 2015 21:36:38 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36845 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2015 : 21:03:30
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quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
If I were running FR, I would not use any of that metaplot stuff about a restoration of Myth Drannor or any reversal of the Retreat.
Ending the Retreat seems rather arbitrary and forced to me. This may be because I have not actually read enough of the 3E materials to get a sense of how it was handled. To me, it looks as if the elves on the whole had recognized that they were losing ground and power in Faerun, and began a long withdrawal. Then, quite suddenly, a dramatic reversal of policy within a time frame that would be very brief even for a much short lived race.
Why?
Because they fancied themselves secure on Evermeet... And then Evermeet was invaded -- some fey'ri slipped in and slaughtered some High Magi. Evermeet's wards did not stop them because of their elven blood.
The argument was made that running from the world did not make them more secure, so they might as well chase down the bad guys and call an end to the Retreat. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2015 : 21:53:16
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Hmmm, well, that is an in-game reason.
Elves seem a bit thick if they think some fiend-tainted guys are the big threat. It's humans that are their doom. If and when you can't push the elves out, you just breed em out.
Half elves for a generation or two, and then humans. Gobble.;)
But apparently there are terrorist cells of elves in later FR stuff that hate humans and attack them. Which is a bit thick, too, as it will only make things worse.
Human warriors is ready for action in about a fifth (sometimes) the time it takes an elf to mature and train to competency. And the same is true across the board for other professions.
But none of this is new stuff. It has no doubt been kicked about the net for years. I imagine people who prefer the elves to be returning have their own perfectly sensible set of rationales for that.
It comes down to preference, taste.
Consider me a fan of the Retreat. I liked that FR elves were pulling back before the numbers and ever growing might of younger, more fertile and faster maturing species. It made them more sympathetic.
It fits their CG tendencies , as they are not organized well enough, nor ruthless enough, to compete with humanity in the long term. And mixing can only lead to more half elves or more humans, not more elves.
So separation in a defensible and remote place presents the best long term survival strategy.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 07 Dec 2015 22:00:10 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36845 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2015 : 22:00:17
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quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
Elves are a bit thick if they think some fiend-tainted guys are the big threat. It's humans that are their doom. If and when you can't push the elves out, you just breed em out.
The issue was that Evermeet was supposed to be inviolate -- being attacked there, especially by unknown enemies, simply wasn't supposed to be possible. And the attack by the demon-elves was the second attack on Evermeet in just a few years; the previous one had come from Kymil Nimesin and his ilk.
So two invasions on supposedly unassailable home turf, one from an unknown enemy -- that really shook things up for the elves. Their home was supposed to be highly defensible, and twice someone just waltzed right in. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 07 Dec 2015 22:01:53 |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2015 : 22:06:51
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Invest in better security.
;)
But they do tend to be chaotic, so I don't have trouble believing their political response to a perceived crisis is fractured. And we are taking about a race, not a single polity.
Nonetheless, I find the Return uninteresting, and not so convincing.
Your explanation has been really helpful, though, WR. I now see that there was some in game justification.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36845 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2015 : 23:00:46
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quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
Invest in better security.
;)
But they do tend to be chaotic, so I don't have trouble believing their political response to a perceived crisis is fractured. And we are taking about a race, not a single polity.
Nonetheless, I find the Return uninteresting, and not so convincing.
Your explanation has been really helpful, though, WR. I now see that there was some in game justification.
I liked it, myself, save for the epilogue that had Myth Drannor as a thriving city a mere 5 years after the fey'ri were chased off. As I've said before, I think that process should have taken decades of work -- it's not like they just had to patch some drywall and apply a new coat of paint.
My reasoning for liking an elven Return is twofold: the retreat to the West is, for me, an overused concept, and because there are an awful lot of elves running around the Realms for a race that's retreating from the world.
But to each his own. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 07 Dec 2015 23:06:00 |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2015 : 23:33:04
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I agree with you that five years from monster-haunted ruin to thriving city seems implausible.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2449 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2015 : 00:38:21
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quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
I agree with you that five years from monster-haunted ruin to thriving city seems implausible.
...unless the fey'ri did all the hard work, and then the elves chased them off?  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36845 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2015 : 00:54:58
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
I agree with you that five years from monster-haunted ruin to thriving city seems implausible.
...unless the fey'ri did all the hard work, and then the elves chased them off?
Well, it was said that the fey'ri cleaned out all the non-fey'ri baddies from the ruins, but I personally think that unlikely.
Even if they did, though, there's still traps, twisted magic, literal centuries of neglect, and heavy damage to even the most intact buildings, which were in a minority. Fixing that takes a lot of work. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2015 : 02:20:13
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A long with what Wooly said, I think (and this is just my take on it), that the elves wanted to reclaim their hold on Faerun, if not to what they had in the days of their ancient empires, then at least so they weren't in full retreat. Evermeet was supposed to be their "safe place", but, as Wooly pointed, it wasn't safe from everything. If they were able to reclaim the City of Song, then they would be better able to establish a foothold.
Of course, the elves have other cities too, like Everesk (where many of the survivors of Myth Drannor are now staying as refugees). |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Topic |
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Tree of Souls: When will it be planted on Faerun?
