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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Dec 2015 : 19:49:16
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Would it have been better if they kept the canon events from the novels separate from the campaign setting?
I honestly believe the one and only reason we don't see a reboot is Drizzt. This one lone character has the influence to possibly keep the Realms from a reboot because of how the stories and setting are kept together.
I wonder if this would have been better.
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“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2015 : 20:27:00
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It would have been better for the game, certainly. But there's also the belief that fewer people would buy novels in this case, and I think that's probably true.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2015 : 21:11:47
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In my opinion, novels support the game setting, and the game setting supports the novels -- they are intertwined. Both would suffer without the other -- interest in one helps drive interest in the other.
I'd not care half so much about the Realms if it wasn't for the game material -- and I'd've never looked at the game material if it hadn't been for the novels.
And I would further disagree that it was one character and one character only that prevented a reboot... We didn't get a reboot because that would have invalidated everything that had gone before, for all of the countless characters that make up the setting and for all of the stories the setting has hosted. And that's not just for the fiction line -- that also refers to all the adventures, all the source material, all the comics, all the web and magazine articles... We didn't get a reboot because the history and continuity (even when deliberately ignored) has always been a major component of the setting, and a reset would have negated all of that. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2015 : 23:17:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Would it have been better if they kept the canon events from the novels separate from the campaign setting?
I wonder if this would have been better.
Absolutely!
We should all remember that the purpose of playing an RPG is to give the Players an opportunity for their Characters to shine and become the heroes of myth and legend, they are the protagonists!
But because the D&D designers/producers often follow the stories, lore and adventures that center around heroic deeds of legendaries like Drizzt, then the focus and attention is often stolen by those paperback heroes.
The game should never be about Drizzt changing the world and saving the world all the time, or Bruenor and Elminster changing the world every week with weekly daily heroic deeds. It should be about OUR Player-Characters doing those things.
My own solution? When I DM my campaign, those NPC heroes such as Elminster and Drizzt are hardly ever mentioned. As if they were some far-away rumors that has little bearing on the current campaign and the current region. The villagers are rumoring about some goody-good Drow Ranger who beats up demons and monsters on a daily basis? Nonsense, it's just an old wives tale. It's not that I invalidate the existence of Elminster or Drizzt or Bruenor. They still exist in my Realms and Realms history, but in a very obscure and muted way. But I will not allow their paperback legendary heroism to outshine my Players.
I'm not against the novels at all. I'm sure they bring in lots of revenue for the WotC and the authors (Greenwood, etc). But when I'm playing the game D&D and running any of the APs, I will make sure that any of those Salvatore heroes and stories are just old vague whispered rumors and nothing more.
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2015 : 00:36:24
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There are a couple of novels that should never have gotten past their editors. Other than those individual novels, absolutely not.
The onus is on the writers to make a story that captures the identity of Realms, because a business like TSR or WotC will always try to integrate them into the setting and cash in. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
Edited by - hashimashadoo on 03 Dec 2015 00:39:45 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2402 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2015 : 00:51:55
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Without single common continuity it will end up either with Negative Continuity (Tom & Jerry style) - which doesn't need an elaborate setting, since it's a series of one-shots... or degenerated into drunk yarn ball a-la DC/Marvel, where every writer walks into separate direction, forming thousands of continuity branches.
But if all the authors plan to wander on their own, they don't really need a common setting in the first place. It would only constrain them.
That is, except those aiming to use the name purely for promotion, and those not creative enough to write their own, but desiring that someone else would prepare for them a place where they could deign to climb upon a box and blather the sermon. In which case, BLEEP them with a vuvuzela. IMHO. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 03 Dec 2015 00:54:56 |
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BenN
Senior Scribe
Japan
382 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2015 : 01:12:28
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| I'm happy with the way things are now; but IMHO RSEs in novels should be kept to a minimum. At their best, novels add flavour to, and flesh-out the Realms, providing inspiration for the rest of us. |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2015 : 12:01:54
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| No. That would make the novels glorified fanfiction and me having absolutely no more interest in reading them |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2015 : 12:34:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
No. That would make the novels glorified fanfiction and me having absolutely no more interest in reading them
How would that make them fanfiction? They would still be authorized novels in the Realms canon. They just wouldn't have any impact on the game part.
That's not fanfiction. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2015 : 14:10:50
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How to separate FR from the novels:
step 1: acquire Gray Box
step 2: replace Moonshaes with your own version of the islands, or ocean. Whatever. Just don't use the official stuff because it comes from novels.
Note that Icewind Dale does not exist. No Menzoberranzan, either. Mithril Hall, etc.I am pretty sure Salvatore created all those places.
step 3: don't read any of the novels, or ignore them for game purposes if you do read them
Step 4:game on
It's a pretty easy fix.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2015 : 15:09:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
No. That would make the novels glorified fanfiction and me having absolutely no more interest in reading them
How would that make them fanfiction? They would still be authorized novels in the Realms canon. They just wouldn't have any impact on the game part.
That's not fanfiction.
Ah, but that's the rub: if the novels don't affect the game setting, they are not canon. You would have, at best, two separated and different canons, essentially making two different versions of the Realms (because at some point, one will deviate from the other, otherwise, there is no point to the separation). At worst, you'd have the game canon and then a bunch of novels disconnected from game canon and each novel ignoring the others, so there would be no novel continuity at all.
Either way, if novels are not canon for the game setting, then from the perspective of the game canon, the novels are fanfiction. |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2015 : 15:29:23
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Games are not novels. Novels are not games.
A scripted , NPC centric module may be less useful for many DMs than a looser module that focuses on the PCs going through locations and encountering game challenges. I know which style I prefer.
A novel that reads like a transcript of a D&D session is probably going to be pretty weak fiction.
When people discuss the ties between the game line and the ancillary fiction line, do they mean the setting, characters, or storylines?
The setting has been affected by the novel line since before the Gray Box went to print. Moonshaes, yo.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 03 Dec 2015 15:32:17 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2015 : 15:41:38
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If the two were separated, it does not follow that the novels would be fan fiction.
You could argue they'd be like fan fiction, in that they have no bearing on what's presented in a sourcebook, but that's about it.
If one has a goal of keeping the Realms static, then separating the CS from the novels makes sense. If you have an ongoing novels-based storyline, that storyline can't drastically change the setting. Otherwise your game products don't match up.
In this arrangement, no matter what happens in a novel, Cormyr must still remain Cormyr, Waterdeep remains Waterdeep, and so on. No swapping of nations and continents, unless you make the swap and resolve it in the same novel.
WotC's problem is that they don't seem to know how to do this. If they aren't blowing things up, they aren't selling books. ...but that might mean gaming consumers are the problem; I am not sure who to point the finger at. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 03 Dec 2015 15:57:15 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2015 : 15:55:14
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I, personally, have never understood why there is this perceived issue with novels driving canon. Most novels either go way large-scale, or they are very small-scale.
If a DM wants the PCs to be the ones doing the large-scale stuff, then they handwave the novels out of the way. And the smaller-scale stuff wouldn't have an appreciable impact on anything the PCs did, unless a novel focuses on how Bahb Nounsilver solves the murder of Random Shopkeep #3 in Generic Cormyrean Village #17 and the DM had built his own elaborate plot on that same event.
And deviating from canon is not that big a deal. Unless a DM picks some entirely undetailed area of the Realms and the PCs never leave, at some point, there is going to be a deviation from canon.
And that's fine. Make the Realms your own.
As for big-name NPCs overshadowing the PCs... Unless you're starting your PCs at level 15 or higher, there's going to be a lot of game time before the PCs can operate on the same level as the big names. There's plenty for them to do in that interval. Even when they get to that point, the mere existence of big names does not mean that PCs can't do anything. There are always threats to deal with, and a score of high-level named PCs can't be everywhere at once.
Mystra's Chosen are often referred to as the Justice League, by detractors... But look at the world of comics: crime still happens in Metropolis and Gotham, despite everything Superman and Batman do. Despite having those guys there, the cities still need cops and firefighters and paramedics.
Clearly, even having an invulnerable superfast, superstrong guy flying around isn't enough. So if Superman can't do everything in one city, how can a dozen people cover an entire continent?
And it's also not like there's a Level 20 Club, where everyone in the Realms goes once they hit a certain level. Unless the PCs are in Shadowdale looking for Elminster, chances are they'll never even see him, much less bump into him on a quest. |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2015 : 16:25:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I, personally, have never understood why there is this perceived issue with novels driving canon. Most novels either go way large-scale, or they are very small-scale.
If a DM wants the PCs to be the ones doing the large-scale stuff, then they handwave the novels out of the way. And the smaller-scale stuff wouldn't have an appreciable impact on anything the PCs did, unless a novel focuses on how Bahb Nounsilver solves the murder of Random Shopkeep #3 in Generic Cormyrean Village #17 and the DM had built his own elaborate plot on that same event.
And deviating from canon is not that big a deal. Unless a DM picks some entirely undetailed area of the Realms and the PCs never leave, at some point, there is going to be a deviation from canon.
And that's fine. Make the Realms your own.
As for big-name NPCs overshadowing the PCs... Unless you're starting your PCs at level 15 or higher, there's going to be a lot of game time before the PCs can operate on the same level as the big names. There's plenty for them to do in that interval. Even when they get to that point, the mere existence of big names does not mean that PCs can't do anything. There are always threats to deal with, and a score of high-level named PCs can't be everywhere at once.
Mystra's Chosen are often referred to as the Justice League, by detractors... But look at the world of comics: crime still happens in Metropolis and Gotham, despite everything Superman and Batman do. Despite having those guys there, the cities still need cops and firefighters and paramedics.
Clearly, even having an invulnerable superfast, superstrong guy flying around isn't enough. So if Superman can't do everything in one city, how can a dozen people cover an entire continent?
And it's also not like there's a Level 20 Club, where everyone in the Realms goes once they hit a certain level. Unless the PCs are in Shadowdale looking for Elminster, chances are they'll never even see him, much less bump into him on a quest.
The problem with novels is that different authors are not always on the same page and it can take one author to cause future products to come out completely different. What if one author decides to destroy Waterdeep in one of his novels and gets WoTc to go along with it because he pitched them a really "kewl" idea. Well all future products for the game have Waterdeep in ruins.
If we are going to pitch the whole "well you can keep it that way in your games", well then I pitch this "then why bother future products and just use all the old stuff along with all the old rules."
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“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2015 : 16:33:18
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Let's say your guys encounter Drizzt. He's only, what. A 7th level ranger in his first game appearance? Experienced, yes, but not even yet name level. The PCs certainly do not need to be 15th level to kick his butt. Not even if he has his buddies with him.
"A dark elf! Attack!"
They kill the Drow and steal his stuff.
Now everything that he does in the novel continuity that might happen in the future will not occur in the game continuity at your table.
Of course, Drizzt may not be the best example. Does he actually have any big impact on the world?
The Knights of MythDrannor are mostly not super high level, as they appear in the Gray Box.
Let's say the party fights these guys and kills several of them. Does that change future canon history?
I think the problem is not that novels affected game design, but that some DMs assign plot immunity to NPCs and privilege official metaplot over emergent story. That could be a problem in a setting with no fiction line tied to it. It could be a problem with a DM who never read a novel.
And it might not be a problem at all for some groups with quite different gaming styles than mine.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 03 Dec 2015 16:34:53 |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2015 : 16:38:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
If the two were separated, it does not follow that the novels would be fan fiction.
If they no longer effect the game world they become no better than well written fan fiction.
quote:
You could argue they'd be like fan fiction, in that they have no bearing on what's presented in a sourcebook, but that's about it.
well, it's the main point that differentiates them from fan fiction.
If WotC's novels where Azoun dies no longer means he's dead in the next Cormyr game supplement, than the novels is not any more important than any piece if Cormyr fan fiction in the Internet
quote:
If one has a goal of keeping the Realms static,
[...]
In this arrangement,[...]
WotC's problem is that they don't seem to know how to do this.
Because that's not WotC's goal/arrangement |
Edited by - Mirtek on 03 Dec 2015 16:40:03 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2015 : 16:44:12
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Authors don't blow up cities in the Realms unless WotC tells them to.
That, and even the most out of touch author knows he or she is working in a shared world. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2015 : 16:47:20
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| In which case, BLEEP them with a vuvuzela. Ha, had to look that one up. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2015 : 16:56:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I, personally, have never understood why there is this perceived issue with novels driving canon. Most novels either go way large-scale, or they are very small-scale.
If a DM wants the PCs to be the ones doing the large-scale stuff, then they handwave the novels out of the way. And the smaller-scale stuff wouldn't have an appreciable impact on anything the PCs did, unless a novel focuses on how Bahb Nounsilver solves the murder of Random Shopkeep #3 in Generic Cormyrean Village #17 and the DM had built his own elaborate plot on that same event.
And deviating from canon is not that big a deal. Unless a DM picks some entirely undetailed area of the Realms and the PCs never leave, at some point, there is going to be a deviation from canon.
And that's fine. Make the Realms your own.
As for big-name NPCs overshadowing the PCs... Unless you're starting your PCs at level 15 or higher, there's going to be a lot of game time before the PCs can operate on the same level as the big names. There's plenty for them to do in that interval. Even when they get to that point, the mere existence of big names does not mean that PCs can't do anything. There are always threats to deal with, and a score of high-level named PCs can't be everywhere at once.
Mystra's Chosen are often referred to as the Justice League, by detractors... But look at the world of comics: crime still happens in Metropolis and Gotham, despite everything Superman and Batman do. Despite having those guys there, the cities still need cops and firefighters and paramedics.
Clearly, even having an invulnerable superfast, superstrong guy flying around isn't enough. So if Superman can't do everything in one city, how can a dozen people cover an entire continent?
And it's also not like there's a Level 20 Club, where everyone in the Realms goes once they hit a certain level. Unless the PCs are in Shadowdale looking for Elminster, chances are they'll never even see him, much less bump into him on a quest.
The problem with novels is that different authors are not always on the same page and it can take one author to cause future products to come out completely different. What if one author decides to destroy Waterdeep in one of his novels and gets WoTc to go along with it because he pitched them a really "kewl" idea. Well all future products for the game have Waterdeep in ruins.
If we are going to pitch the whole "well you can keep it that way in your games", well then I pitch this "then why bother future products and just use all the old stuff along with all the old rules."
WotC decides the plots and finds authors to write them -- not the other way around.
And if authors aren't all on the same page, that's an editorial issue. And sourcebooks are no more immune to that than novels -- look at the 17,043,826.3 ways the Shadow Weave was presented in 3E, or the fact that they couldn't even get the story of Shade's survival straight.
And disconnecting novel continuity from game continuity would increase, not fix, the issue of authors not being on the same page. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2015 : 17:08:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
Authors don't blow up cities in the Realms unless WotC tells them to.
That, and even the most out of touch author knows he or she is working in a shared world.
Maybe, maybe not. I'm sure authors pitch their ideas to WoTc. I don't imagine they just sit there waiting on Wizards to give them something to write about. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2015 : 18:12:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
Authors don't blow up cities in the Realms unless WotC tells them to.
That, and even the most out of touch author knows he or she is working in a shared world.
Maybe, maybe not. I'm sure authors pitch their ideas to WoTc. I don't imagine they just sit there waiting on Wizards to give them something to write about.
They might, but WotC would probably never even read them. It's standard practice for companies who have an IP franchise (be it Forgotten Realms, Star Trek, or others) to never even accept author-pitched stories, unless they have requested the author to do so (and after signing a contract setting out terms & conditions), to avoid litigation on "stolen ideas". |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2015 : 19:15:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
If they no longer effect the game world they become no better than well written fan fiction.
To you, perhaps. But objectivey? No, they don't.
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
Well, it's the main point that differentiates them from fan fiction.
For someone who's used to thinking of the Realms as a place where what's written in novels and sourcebooks reflect the same thing, sure.
But if we follow the OP's question, and ask ourselves if things wouldn't have been better from the start if TSR had kept the campaign setting and the novels separate, then it follows that readers (whether they also played D&D in the Realms or not) would view the novels as the only thing of any importance when it comes to the story of the Forgotten Realms.
In this scenario, the campaign setting is a somewhat static place. There's tons of information on it, but it's not there to tell you an ongoing story in addition to its primary job of serving as the background in which you tell your own stories via D&D campaigns.
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
If WotC's novels where Azoun dies no longer means he's dead in the next Cormyr game supplement, than the novels is not any more important than any piece if Cormyr fan fiction in the Internet.
Can you demonstrate how this is true? Also, when you say "important," what do you mean? Important to who?
If the novel "Death of the Dragon" is the official story--and it is, because the owner of the IP published it--and we're dealing with a situation where it's also official that the published campaign world explicitly ignores the novels, and we know from experience that the only way to get the story of the Realms is to look to the novels, then anyone wanting to know the story will find the novels important.
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
Because that's not WotC's goal/arrangement
It's not as though WotC (and TSR) hasn't tried to tell smaller stories before. From what I've seen, they've had some success. The problem is that WotC moves in the direction of the most money.
What I'm saying is that WotC does not appear to know how to tell smaller-scale stories while maximizing profits (which to me is synonymous with attracting the most readers)
They seem to be trying again with 5E now that the Sundering is over, so I hope they've hit on a formula that brings in readers in the same numbers that their "let's blow something up and make more money" formula does. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 03 Dec 2015 19:15:55 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2015 : 19:20:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And disconnecting novel continuity from game continuity would increase, not fix, the issue of authors not being on the same page.
How does this follow? The only thing novel writers need to know is the basic information about the campaign world, which at the time of the OGB was not that much information (Ed's numerous behind the scenes info packets sent to TSR notwithstanding).
Going forward, if you're writing novels you only need to be familiar with later novels, and then only if they touch on an area you're writing about. You don't need to worry about the campaign setting advancing the timeline, nor about sourcebooks that incorporate "future" events, because the CS never followed the timeline to begin with and it was never concerned with advancing its own timeline. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2015 : 19:35:24
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I just wish the novels would be set in all the time settings, rather than just in the "current" time period, the way Ed did with the Knights of series (not that I liked those much other than Knights of Eveningstar, the concept was great though!). For me, the peak of the setting is 13040-1360 DR, so novels set in that time period are the most fun to read. I get however that if WotC wants to push a module, tying a novel from the current Realms period to that module (Rage of Demonzzz!11!!) is how to go. A novel that makes pre-ToT era seem fun and interesting won't sell many game books that are set in the 1480s era. Which is why era neutral lore books like Ed Greenwood Presents Elminster's Forgotten Realms are so good.
Hope that made sense.Keep novels tied to setting, but set more novels in the good eras before the (ill-conceived, not popular) massive time skip, which was a reboot in a way if you think of it.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2015 : 19:40:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And disconnecting novel continuity from game continuity would increase, not fix, the issue of authors not being on the same page.
How does this follow? The only thing novel writers need to know is the basic information about the campaign world, which at the time of the OGB was not that much information (Ed's numerous behind the scenes info packets sent to TSR notwithstanding).
Going forward, if you're writing novels you only need to be familiar with later novels, and then only if they touch on an area you're writing about. You don't need to worry about the campaign setting advancing the timeline, nor about sourcebooks that incorporate "future" events, because the CS never followed the timeline to begin with and it was never concerned with advancing its own timeline.
With a disconnected continuity, the authors would need to know two continuities: the novel continuity, and the game one. This would increase the odds of continuity issues, because something from the game continuity could be mistaken for novel continuity, and vice-versa. We've had enough problems sticking with one continuity; two would obviously be more problematic.
Even if the novels didn't have any continuity at all, the author would still need to know the game continuity and what had come before so that he or she doesn't do the same thing as a prior novelist. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4431 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2015 : 19:48:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Would it have been better if they kept the canon events from the novels separate from the campaign setting?
Not really. However it's stressed, multiple times, that your own personal games are/should be separate from Canon. If Ed's games aren't even related to the Canon lore, why should anyone else feel it necessary to do it?
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
I honestly believe the one and only reason we don't see a reboot is Drizzt. This one lone character has the influence to possibly keep the Realms from a reboot because of how the stories and setting are kept together.
I believe that there are a LOT of reasons, besides Drizzt, that are pointed to the negates a reboot. For starters when and why? Pick any era/year and tell me why that is better than another. Secondly, why would you want to refute the HUGE plethora of gaming material that's currently available? Third, a LOT of people have never moved onto Era/Year X, Y, or Z and have MANY campaigns based on what's in the books of their particular area, thus slighting them if you simply wipe all of that away.
I don't know if you're a Star Trek fan or not but put this into perspective: The Star Trek universe has had 40+ years of canon material, from the founding of the Federation to the exploration of the Delta quadrant, including the creation of hundreds of species and events, from the Borg to even parallel universes. Along comes J.J. Abrams and null-and-voids ALL of it. 40+ years (besides the events in Enterprise series) all gone and none of it "existed". Sure, they understood how much this would upset fans so they put Prime Spock into the new universe to sort of nod that this is different than the original version, but that still didn't go over well with a LOT of Trekkies.
I don't see how a reboot NOW will help cause anything other than more divisive attitude on the setting.
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Edited by - Diffan on 03 Dec 2015 19:52:41 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2015 : 19:58:44
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Why would an author need to know Campaign Setting continuity?
It seems to me that you are assuming the CS would have a continuity to begin with. The CS would have some history as part of its introduction to readers, but that's about it. A CS that is not connected to novel events is not concerned with advancing its own multilayered story and timeline.
All it is concerned with is presenting material OGB style. Here's the world, here's what it's about, etc., go have fun.
To be clear, I am talking about a scenario as the OP described, where novels and setting are separated from the get go. I am not talking about how a reboot to the OGB era that included novels now being divorced from the CS would work. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2402 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2015 : 21:40:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
How would that make them fanfiction? They would still be authorized novels in the Realms canon. They just wouldn't have any impact on the game part.
If all novels would have strong continuity, but the game side won't? Like computer games were? That would kind of work. But... the obvious next step is to play in that continuity.
Not having to deal with the result of pointless shoehorning (like Class Chronicles) or treating FR as dumping grounds would be a change to the better.
Now the question: once there would be nothing to cover the mental bankrupcy of RSE plotlines... why would they release these short series of modules to begin with? Theoretically, this could create demand for higher quality. Practically, that's exactly why it's not going to happen. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2015 : 22:32:57
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Metaplot is still a thing in GH. GH has next to no novels, and the continuity of the setting has never been connected with those few books.
If the designers want to make changes in order to stir up interest in a new iteration of setting materials, they don't need a fiction line to justify that.
GH wars came from an idea by Jeff Grubb. Blow it up. And TSR made a boxed set. The history is given as is, no novels. None of the several changes were novel related or novel driven in GH. But I have seen GH fans argue about metaplot. Some guys are preWars only. Some post Wars FtA fans. Some like the late 90s development. Some followed and enjoyed LG. Others, like me, never had any interest in the RPGA.
I do have to say-- and this is only anecdotal --the rifts seem deeper in FR fandom. I suspect the nature and scale of the metaplot changes is one reason. In GH circles people tend to argue about questions like whether the Scarlet Brotherhood is more fun as a secretive organization or an imperial power. Stuff like that. The world changes have generally been political. Some states get conquered. Rulers change.
But very little of that prevents a DM from picking up newer GH materials and using them in an older era game, or in his game if it has progressed past the " official" date with different events.
GH modules are typically location based. Not all, but most.
Realms has gods dying or coming back with every new edition, and major geographical changes in 4E. And again in 5E , it gets major world altering changes. Like whole continents swapping, yeah?
That's huge.
And some FR modules seem very plot driven. Yet the outcomes of these never matter in the official setting because the heroes always win and nothing is really at risk. Risk is illusory because the arbitrary call of the designers settles what happens in the official timeline, not the outcome of actual play.
The Avatar modules are a pretty good example of this, I think. Midnight cannot die. Cyric must kill Mask. Etc. Sure, it could turn out differently at your table. But if it does turn out differently, why would you buy new version of the Gray Box that really only differs in metaplot you aren't even using?
Now, if the new materials offer a lot of new stuff, like Forgotten Realms Adventures did, then that's a different story. You might buy that hardback even if there never wee any Avatar Crisis in your campaign, because it has speciality priests, city maps, guns, and lots of other cool stuff.
It expands the setting. |
YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 03 Dec 2015 22:37:06 |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2015 : 23:45:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
If the novel "Death of the Dragon" is the official story--and it is, because the owner of the IP published it--and we're dealing with a situation where it's also official that the published campaign world explicitly ignores the novels, and we know from experience that the only way to get the story of the Realms is to look to the novels, then anyone wanting to know the story will find the novels important.
But it's not the official story if the published campaign world ignores it. If DotD says Azoun dies in 1371 and the published campaign world has him hale and hearty in the next Cormyr sourcebook in 1378 there's a big problem.
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
It seems to me that you are assuming the CS would have a continuity to begin with. The CS would have some history as part of its introduction to readers, but that's about it. A CS that is not connected to novel events is not concerned with advancing its own multilayered story and timeline.
Then we have a dead campaign setting. Boring.
Just look how well Eberron did fare with this
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
Metaplot is still a thing in GH. GH has next to no novels, and the continuity of the setting has never been connected with those few books.
Which might be the reason it's novels never took of
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Edited by - Mirtek on 03 Dec 2015 23:48:31 |
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Campaign setting separate from novels: Better?
