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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Nov 2015 : 22:31:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Brylock
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Your friendly neighborhood Red Wizard has all the bling you need.
You can't trip over a rock without some epic wizard crawling out from underneath, so magic-marts should be fairly common. If not, there's always relying on your long-suffering party wizard.
See, the problem is that you need magic bling the higher level you are, because it's the only way to remain reasonably effective. Martial classes suffer from this far more than casters, and the scaling of creature AC and hp means that you absolutely need more and more of an edge.
By martials, I mean non-casters that aren't monks, because nobody plays monks and think they can match the fighter or barbarian at killing things.
DM reticence only goes so far before your players demand some bang for their buck. You can't keep forcing the party wizard to blow his feats on Craft feats.
Thank god that that whole problem has been relatively solved.
There are but three magical items among my current party (not counting disposables like potions and the odd scroll here and there) at level 8/9-ish and we no longer NEED anything of that sort in the current edition to succeed despite not having a dedicated arcane caster. Admittedly we had to splurge on some silver to take on a diabloist and his summoned goons and those werewolves that one time, but aside from that we're only just missing out on a +1 here and there which no longer drastically affects our combat effectiveness in any meaningful way.
The only way it does is when we encounter a creature with heavy Resistances, which actually is fairly rare even at the level we're at much to my surprise.
Frankly, I think magic items should be far more common than that. They are part of the fun on of roleplaying. I can't imagine the DM has actually used random treasure generation in that campaign, because all the old tables you has about a 15 percent chance at a minor magic item (ring of protection +1, etc.)
While mundane treasure can be nice, it really holds no actual lasting value so might as well be sold off for gp and investment. A magic item makes these choices more difficult. At the very least you should be getting magical armor that in effect just allows you to reduce your encumbrance (trade in plate mail for enchanted chain mail, etc.). A wizard by ninth level with no magical protection at all? = sitting duck :P
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Brylock
Acolyte
USA
43 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 01:26:39
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by Brylock
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Your friendly neighborhood Red Wizard has all the bling you need.
You can't trip over a rock without some epic wizard crawling out from underneath, so magic-marts should be fairly common. If not, there's always relying on your long-suffering party wizard.
See, the problem is that you need magic bling the higher level you are, because it's the only way to remain reasonably effective. Martial classes suffer from this far more than casters, and the scaling of creature AC and hp means that you absolutely need more and more of an edge.
By martials, I mean non-casters that aren't monks, because nobody plays monks and think they can match the fighter or barbarian at killing things.
DM reticence only goes so far before your players demand some bang for their buck. You can't keep forcing the party wizard to blow his feats on Craft feats.
Thank god that that whole problem has been relatively solved.
There are but three magical items among my current party (not counting disposables like potions and the odd scroll here and there) at level 8/9-ish and we no longer NEED anything of that sort in the current edition to succeed despite not having a dedicated arcane caster. Admittedly we had to splurge on some silver to take on a diabloist and his summoned goons and those werewolves that one time, but aside from that we're only just missing out on a +1 here and there which no longer drastically affects our combat effectiveness in any meaningful way.
The only way it does is when we encounter a creature with heavy Resistances, which actually is fairly rare even at the level we're at much to my surprise.
Frankly, I think magic items should be far more common than that. They are part of the fun on of roleplaying. I can't imagine the DM has actually used random treasure generation in that campaign, because all the old tables you has about a 15 percent chance at a minor magic item (ring of protection +1, etc.)
While mundane treasure can be nice, it really holds no actual lasting value so might as well be sold off for gp and investment. A magic item makes these choices more difficult. At the very least you should be getting magical armor that in effect just allows you to reduce your encumbrance (trade in plate mail for enchanted chain mail, etc.). A wizard by ninth level with no magical protection at all? = sitting duck :P
It's a matter of personal opinion, not fact.
My issue was with 3e was that if you used the stats in the Monsterous Manual you had literally NO choice as anyone other then a dedicated spellcaster to become a Magic Item Christmas Tree, becoming absolutely festooned with various high-level magical items constantly and devaluing each one as you weighed it in like a Diablo random drop against what you could get in the store, except for there was no built-in system to gurantee the random drops would always he store buys. What's worse is that even THEN a martial class would still be significantly less effective then a caster at doing basically anything at all, including melee.
Magic wasn't magical anymore, it was just a bunch of random numbers you constantly tried to get higher like a guy buying as many Magic the Gathering booster packs as possible so you could get the "winning" character build, and stupidly the way AC, HP, and monster stats and abilities worked meant that this was how you HAD to play to be an effective non-caster if you wanted to use the core products. All sense of treasuring magic items we had in the prior edition gradually faded, and it wasn't until one finally embarrassing game of 3e that I won't even elaborate on here we realized just how little any of us actually cared about the actual PLAYING of the game anymore, just how we could "win" D&D. It turned us off to it pretty badly for a long time and we only even bothered venturing into D&D as a group when 5e came along and there was, I kid you not, literally nothing else to play as through miscommunication we had forgotten all of our other books for other games.
5e's magic items sometimes rubs 3e and 4e's players the wrong way the same way 3e's magic item system rubbed 2e's players the wrong way sometimes, but much to our surprise we're actually enjoying a system that previously had been poisoned so badly by the rules themselves for us that we made mocking gagging noises when any of us brought it up as a possibility despite our VERY long history with the game. |
"It's almost like whenever you talk you flip through the dictionary and pull out words at random or something." |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2402 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 01:55:06
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See also: on magic trade, from Ed.
quote:
Originally posted by Brylock
It's a matter of personal opinion, not fact.
My issue was with 3e was that if you used the stats in the Monsterous Manual you had literally NO choice as anyone other then a dedicated spellcaster to become a Magic Item Christmas Tree, becoming absolutely festooned with various high-level magical items constantly and devaluing each one as you weighed it in like a Diablo random drop
Yup. And as someone noted, even in the way CR are calculated it's assumed that PCs will have such and such magic items at such and such levels. If you don't want to play generic Hack&Slash, you'll end up not using generic books as is.
People complained that 4e was MUDified, but it mostly turned obvious clumsiness of 3e into laughably obvious.
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People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Brylock
Acolyte
USA
43 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 04:05:59
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
See also: on magic trade, from Ed.
quote:
Originally posted by Brylock
It's a matter of personal opinion, not fact.
My issue was with 3e was that if you used the stats in the Monsterous Manual you had literally NO choice as anyone other then a dedicated spellcaster to become a Magic Item Christmas Tree, becoming absolutely festooned with various high-level magical items constantly and devaluing each one as you weighed it in like a Diablo random drop
Yup. And as someone noted, even in the way CR are calculated it's assumed that PCs will have such and such magic items at such and such levels. If you don't want to play generic Hack&Slash, you'll end up not using generic books as is.
People complained that 4e was MUDified, but it mostly turned obvious clumsiness of 3e into laughably obvious.
4e (though I only got around to it near the end of it's lifetime) was a weird one, because it really didn't much resemble any other edition of D&D except superficially, akin to a videogame that has the same graphics as it's prequel but a completely different gameplay and physics engine underneath.
It had a completely DIFFERENT set of mechanical problems I won't go into here (mostly numbers bloat issues), but I felt overall it was weirdly balanced between classes nonetheless....it it just traded an old problem for an entirely new one instead, which I suppose is the way of games made by imperfect human beings in general.
I'm sure 5e has plenty of flaws too, though they seem to be trying to avoid them by putting out content VERY slowly so they don't break the system as quickly as they previously did.
Really though what turned me off to 4e was how weirdly it treated the Realms.
I'm not sure exactly what the design idea was, taking so much of the "core" setting and then just dropping it onto Faerun and removing large chunks of the original. Maybe this was good, maybe this was bad (it entirely depends on opinion), but mostly it was extremely baffling to me. |
"It's almost like whenever you talk you flip through the dictionary and pull out words at random or something." |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 04:11:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Brylock
Magic wasn't magical anymore, it was just a bunch of random numbers you constantly tried to get higher like a guy buying as many Magic the Gathering booster packs as possible so you could get the "winning" character build, and stupidly the way AC, HP, and monster stats and abilities worked meant that this was how you HAD to play to be an effective non-caster if you wanted to use the core products. All sense of treasuring magic items we had in the prior edition gradually faded, and it wasn't until one finally embarrassing game of 3e that I won't even elaborate on here we realized just how little any of us actually cared about the actual PLAYING of the game anymore, just how we could "win" D&D.
This is exactly right. Its what I've thought about all the game systems since 2nd Ed. To me they seem to be a hack and slash game generator, not an in depth roleplaying system. |
Edited by - The Masked Mage on 16 Nov 2015 04:14:37 |
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Brylock
Acolyte
USA
43 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 04:44:33
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by Brylock
Magic wasn't magical anymore, it was just a bunch of random numbers you constantly tried to get higher like a guy buying as many Magic the Gathering booster packs as possible so you could get the "winning" character build, and stupidly the way AC, HP, and monster stats and abilities worked meant that this was how you HAD to play to be an effective non-caster if you wanted to use the core products. All sense of treasuring magic items we had in the prior edition gradually faded, and it wasn't until one finally embarrassing game of 3e that I won't even elaborate on here we realized just how little any of us actually cared about the actual PLAYING of the game anymore, just how we could "win" D&D.
This is exactly right. Its what I've thought about all the game systems since 2nd Ed. To me they seem to be a hack and slash game generator, not an in depth roleplaying system.
It helped to not play fantasy games, though it's a suggestion some might not like.
D&D is a huge influence on almost all but the very oldest, and 3e was easily the most popular D&D edition by sheer sales and product volume, so it's gonna have left it's mark.
Other genres or settings often used entirely different roleplaying systems simply because the D&D style of mechanics didn't really work for them at all. |
"It's almost like whenever you talk you flip through the dictionary and pull out words at random or something." |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4431 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 07:27:40
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by Brylock
Magic wasn't magical anymore, it was just a bunch of random numbers you constantly tried to get higher like a guy buying as many Magic the Gathering booster packs as possible so you could get the "winning" character build, and stupidly the way AC, HP, and monster stats and abilities worked meant that this was how you HAD to play to be an effective non-caster if you wanted to use the core products. All sense of treasuring magic items we had in the prior edition gradually faded, and it wasn't until one finally embarrassing game of 3e that I won't even elaborate on here we realized just how little any of us actually cared about the actual PLAYING of the game anymore, just how we could "win" D&D.
This is exactly right. Its what I've thought about all the game systems since 2nd Ed. To me they seem to be a hack and slash game generator, not an in depth roleplaying system.
I don't see the correlation between more magical items and any apparent lack of role-playing. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4431 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 07:32:50
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| I will say that magic-marts have been apart of my Realms games for over 15 years and I doubt that will change anytime soon. I do, however, base what sort of magical items on the size of the city or town its in. So a place knee Waterdeep will have nearly most items available but a town or homlet will have mostly potions and maybe a +1 weapon |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 09:11:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I don't see the correlation between more magical items and any apparent lack of role-playing.
Hear, hear. You can have great roleplaying with a ton of magic items, and you can have great roleplaying with no magic items.
If/when players fail their saves vs munchkinism, they can (in my opinion) play a game where they can indulge that for a while, like an MMO. Eventually it always gets boring, and it's good if it's some Other game or setting they get bored of, rather than the Realms.
Worst idea: force a low-magic game on a player who is in munchkin mode.
Anyway, just tossin in my coppers. |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 12:46:50
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Magic item shops make sense given how awash with magic items and spellcasters published FR quickly became.
But would I actually use them in play? Nope, not really, with rare exceptions.
And some of those exceptions would involve tricks and curses. I'd give the literary inspirations, but I wish to avoid spoilers.
An item might show up in the hands of a dealer in antiques and curios.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 12:49:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Brylock
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by Brylock
Magic wasn't magical anymore, it was just a bunch of random numbers you constantly tried to get higher like a guy buying as many Magic the Gathering booster packs as possible so you could get the "winning" character build, and stupidly the way AC, HP, and monster stats and abilities worked meant that this was how you HAD to play to be an effective non-caster if you wanted to use the core products. All sense of treasuring magic items we had in the prior edition gradually faded, and it wasn't until one finally embarrassing game of 3e that I won't even elaborate on here we realized just how little any of us actually cared about the actual PLAYING of the game anymore, just how we could "win" D&D.
This is exactly right. Its what I've thought about all the game systems since 2nd Ed. To me they seem to be a hack and slash game generator, not an in depth roleplaying system.
It helped to not play fantasy games, though it's a suggestion some might not like.
D&D is a huge influence on almost all but the very oldest, and 3e was easily the most popular D&D edition by sheer sales and product volume, so it's gonna have left it's mark.
Other genres or settings often used entirely different roleplaying systems simply because the D&D style of mechanics didn't really work for them at all.
I am not sure that 3E was quite that huge. Do we have sales figures? I would have thought that AD&D (first edition) likely outsold it.
And core 3E (3.0, that is) would be the likely number two seller.A big influence, as you say.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 16 Nov 2015 12:50:20 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4431 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 13:37:21
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quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
Magic item shops make sense given how awash with magic items and spellcasters published FR quickly became.
But would I actually use them in play? Nope, not really, with rare exceptions.
And some of those exceptions would involve tricks and curses. I'd give the literary inspirations, but I wish to avoid spoilers.
An item might show up in the hands of a dealer in antiques and curios.
I'm kind of curious why stipulations like tricks and curses are needed? Even from a setting perspective the vast majority of magical items we've seen have little of either. Is it a sort of "gotcha" thing a DM roes? What purpose does it serve? |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 14:44:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
Magic item shops make sense given how awash with magic items and spellcasters published FR quickly became.
But would I actually use them in play? Nope, not really, with rare exceptions.
And some of those exceptions would involve tricks and curses. I'd give the literary inspirations, but I wish to avoid spoilers.
An item might show up in the hands of a dealer in antiques and curios.
I'm kind of curious why stipulations like tricks and curses are needed? Even from a setting perspective the vast majority of magical items we've seen have little of either. Is it a sort of "gotcha" thing a DM roes? What purpose does it serve?
Tricks and curses can be loads of fun in play, sure. They do not need to be deadly to be effective. Indeed, many of the really fun ones don't kill characters.
You see fewer curses and tricks in the published 3E/4E stuff because the overall trend was oriented towards powering up the PCs and toning down on misfortunes and mishaps. More lenient failed saving throw effects, fewer cursed items, healing surges (in 4E),and generally a greater emphasis on 'make the right choices and win your reward.' I am not saying that this playstyle is badwrongfun. I just prefer a more old school approach.
As far as why someone might sell a cursed item:
To get rid of it. Many cursed items cannot simply be abandoned. But depending on the nature of the curse, they might be claimed by another to free the owner. (This device shows up in literature, as you are probably aware)
The seller does not realize the item is cursed. "It's a magic sword. See how it shines!"
The seller is a cultist of Beshaba. Indeed, I imagine that making sure cursed items get into the hands of do-gooders, rival villains, and other fools is a major activity of Beshaban cultists.
Want to buy some magic beans? We take dairy cows.
The item is useful, but has nasty or unexpected side effects. Artifacts are normally like this, but even lesser items may carry such effects. Who says magic needs to always be convenient and easy?
Maybe that magic sword does indeed help the wielder in combat, but also drives him berserk at inopportune moments?
etc.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 16 Nov 2015 14:50:31 |
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Brylock
Acolyte
USA
43 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 19:00:46
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quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
quote:
Originally posted by Brylock
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by Brylock
Magic wasn't magical anymore, it was just a bunch of random numbers you constantly tried to get higher like a guy buying as many Magic the Gathering booster packs as possible so you could get the "winning" character build, and stupidly the way AC, HP, and monster stats and abilities worked meant that this was how you HAD to play to be an effective non-caster if you wanted to use the core products. All sense of treasuring magic items we had in the prior edition gradually faded, and it wasn't until one finally embarrassing game of 3e that I won't even elaborate on here we realized just how little any of us actually cared about the actual PLAYING of the game anymore, just how we could "win" D&D.
This is exactly right. Its what I've thought about all the game systems since 2nd Ed. To me they seem to be a hack and slash game generator, not an in depth roleplaying system.
It helped to not play fantasy games, though it's a suggestion some might not like.
D&D is a huge influence on almost all but the very oldest, and 3e was easily the most popular D&D edition by sheer sales and product volume, so it's gonna have left it's mark.
Other genres or settings often used entirely different roleplaying systems simply because the D&D style of mechanics didn't really work for them at all.
I am not sure that 3E was quite that huge. Do we have sales figures? I would have thought that AD&D (first edition) likely outsold it.
And core 3E (3.0, that is) would be the likely number two seller.A big influence, as you say.
Third Edition was HUGE.
Before 3e D&D was a niche thing, something you generally had to go out of your way to go and find players for a lot of the time. WotC advertised the CRAP out of 3e, and they did so using their single most successful product; Magic the Gathering.
So by sheer volume you're seeing a lot more people get into D&D around 3e because Wizards spammed "by the way, have you played our awesome new roleplaying game that's fun and easy to learn" ads in every box or booster pack they sold as well as what would be considered at the time a very heavy digital advertising effort.
Here's some rough estimations;
https://www.acaeum.com/library/printrun.html |
"It's almost like whenever you talk you flip through the dictionary and pull out words at random or something." |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 20:40:53
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The OGL was also a huge boon to gaming; Wizards told the world, "Here's our ruleset, make your own settings and material, just make sure people know they gotta buy our books!" That freed up a lot of 3rd party designers to go straight to making their own settings or supplementary content for D&D, and helped expand the base of D&D players by attracting folks thru things other than the standard, quasi-medieval Europe set up.
As for magical items... The very first issue of Dragon Magazine that I bought was 163. That issue has an article on magical item quirks -- little quirks likes a scroll that glows, or items not functioning in certain particular environs (outside, more than 100 feet underground, underwater, etc) or other odd things like an item that buries itself in the owner's pack or that levitates when not restrained. Something like that could be a fun twist on any item.
Another thought that I once had: perhaps stuff sold at Red Wal-Marts isn't standard -- maybe the magical items can serve as a focus for scrying by Red Wizards, or they have a command word only known to the Reds that makes them inert, or there is some other sort of unknown booby trap that the Reds can use at any time to put the adventurers in a bad spot. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 16 Nov 2015 20:41:34 |
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 21:47:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Artemas Entreri
I'd never allow players to buy magical items. However, I also wouldn't be a stingy DM and make them SUPER rare either.
I dunno. In my past DMing, I didn't mind selling or providing occasional access to disposable (e.g. limited use) magic items such as potions and scrolls.
But selling magical hardware such as magic swords and magic staves? Nah. I'm just as stingy as you. D&D campaigns tend to end prematurely if you spoil and Monty-Haul the PCs way too early with an abundance of magic loot. |
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Brylock
Acolyte
USA
43 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 21:54:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The OGL was also a huge boon to gaming; Wizards told the world, "Here's our ruleset, make your own settings and material, just make sure people know they gotta buy our books!" That freed up a lot of 3rd party designers to go straight to making their own settings or supplementary content for D&D, and helped expand the base of D&D players by attracting folks thru things other than the standard, quasi-medieval Europe set up.
Ironically the OGL and d20 System also probably caused 3.5e and 4e to not do as well as they financially could and were also almost certainly the primary cause of the huge slump the gaming industry fell into in the mid/late 00's with the massive glut of poor-quality d20 products everywhere.
I think the idea at Wizards was to allow everyone to use d20 and so everyone would need to buy a PHB, DMG, and MM for their games in settings Wizards didn't have to publish, not realizing that most groups would only really need to buy one of each and wouldn't need to buy new ones just because they bought a new knockoff setting book.
I think someone needed to explain to them that you can't really sell gaming books like MtG booster card packs and keep people regularly buying them like that. |
"It's almost like whenever you talk you flip through the dictionary and pull out words at random or something." |
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Brylock
Acolyte
USA
43 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 21:57:48
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quote:
Originally posted by moonbeast
quote:
Originally posted by Artemas Entreri
I'd never allow players to buy magical items. However, I also wouldn't be a stingy DM and make them SUPER rare either.
I dunno. In my past DMing, I didn't mind selling or providing occasional access to disposable (e.g. limited use) magic items such as potions and scrolls.
But selling magical hardware such as magic swords and magic staves? Nah. I'm just as stingy as you. D&D campaigns tend to end prematurely if you spoil and Monty-Haul the PCs way too early with an abundance of magic loot.
Indeed, I do this too.
With potions you don't even need to be a Wizard or anything, you can just go to an herbalist or alchemist or apothecary who has the right ingredients and they'll brew you up some potions with them, though the effectiveness of the potion depends on the ingredients and skill of the individual in question of course. |
"It's almost like whenever you talk you flip through the dictionary and pull out words at random or something." |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 23:00:26
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TANGENT ALERT
The OGL-enabled D20 'splosion saw tubs of third party books released. Some of those were crud. Some were brilliant. Some were cruddy but brilliant.
I don't know if it brought in all that many new players or not. That's perhaps hard to measure.
I am not convinced it increased the variety of fantasy stuff all that much. There was plenty of non-European stuff out there all along. It just wasn't all the same rules system. The Nineties saw a lot of different systems on the market. And indeed, many systems are available out there now, including free ones.
But OGL has helped online gaming, I think. The hypertext is convenient.
And OGL has been used to make retroclones. I'm cool with those as long as nobody is trying to cash in on the hard work of TSR designers while presenting old games as new. But who does that? None of the OSR guys I know about. They are all huge TSR fans.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 16 Nov 2015 23:01:33 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1503 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2015 : 00:36:01
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3e was so beloved that Pathfinder became a thing. 3e sparked off character optimization and character development in ways that the previous editions couldn't hope to duplicate, with the sheer wealth and breadth of character options practically guaranteeing that a character could be anything they wanted.
Magic items didn't really change that in any way. What the Realms doesn't do well is actually figuring out how magic can play havoc with the economy, when some enterprising wizard can become a salt or metallurgy kingpin, or can flood the market with magical items. Dragon magazine once did an issue with 3e D&D analogues to laptops and PDAs; can you not imagine some bored wizard becoming Bill Gates with magic? |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2015 : 00:53:03
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
3e was so beloved that Pathfinder became a thing. 3e sparked off character optimization and character development in ways that the previous editions couldn't hope to duplicate, with the sheer wealth and breadth of character options practically guaranteeing that a character could be anything they wanted.
Magic items didn't really change that in any way. What the Realms doesn't do well is actually figuring out how magic can play havoc with the economy, when some enterprising wizard can become a salt or metallurgy kingpin, or can flood the market with magical items. Dragon magazine once did an issue with 3e D&D analogues to laptops and PDAs; can you not imagine some bored wizard becoming Bill Gates with magic?
I would prefer to play GURPS if I were really hankering for that much optimization and crunchy mechanical stuff. It's built for it.
That said, I have certainly played and run 3E and had a blast. It is not my favorite edition, but I like pretty much all D&D and am not an " edition warrior."
My long term Ravenloft game on Fraternity of Shadows was run with 3.5/OGL rules.
I hope the edition related tangent to which I have contributed hasn't derailed things too much. It is relevant to how magical items are handled in the game.
In AD&D, as was pointed out by another guy up thread, items are harder to make. Or rather, one has to reach higher level in order to create them. In 3E the effective requisite levels are lower. And it is true that the 3E CR system assumes wealth by level.
It sounds as if the 5E approach is more like pre D20 editions of the game.
Note on item creation in earlier editions:
I think Holmes may allow magic users to make scrolls from low levels, but you should check that with a guy who has played Holmes Basic. I'd love to give it a spin, but I have never even seen a copy.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 17 Nov 2015 00:58:00 |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2015 : 06:22:30
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Coming off the back of 4e, my players and I had a bit of magic item exhaustion. Players demanding items that their builds required and so forth got old, so the low-magic item policy of 5e was very welcome. Everything just feels that much more special and unique.
I did struggle a bit to reconcile that idea with the high-magic Realms, though. I came up with the excuse that Mystra's death in 1385 had sundered the Weave in a way to make the old ways of creating magic items impossible. This continued up until her rebirth in 1479, whereupon the Weave was recreated, but differently - the old methods still don't work, but it is possible to make magic items again using new methods, yet undiscovered. However, that was only ten years ago, and wizards are only slowly learning the ropes. Of course, you still have a lot of magic items created before 1385 around, but they're way rarer and even more expensive than before.
I have powerful wizard groups such as the Red Wizards, the Watchful Order, and the Arcane Brotherhood slowly uncovering the secrets of Mystra's "new" Weave, and so far they've learnt to create +1 weapons and +1 wands of the war mage, available for sale in major cities only at a high cost. That and some potions are all that's around for purchase (and the odd pre-1385 item), with the extra high price due to the far more intensive process of creation these days (ie. in 5e). The Red Wizards of course are still undercutting everyone else - in fact the Red Wizards always seem to be at the forefront of magic item creation, a fact which has led to many cities re-allowing Thayan embassies within their walls. Everyone wants the latest stuff the Red Wizards are making, and is willing to forget that they're ruled by an undead megalomaniac.
Just a personal take. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4431 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2015 : 15:38:33
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quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
Magic item shops make sense given how awash with magic items and spellcasters published FR quickly became.
But would I actually use them in play? Nope, not really, with rare exceptions.
And some of those exceptions would involve tricks and curses. I'd give the literary inspirations, but I wish to avoid spoilers.
An item might show up in the hands of a dealer in antiques and curios.
I'm kind of curious why stipulations like tricks and curses are needed? Even from a setting perspective the vast majority of magical items we've seen have little of either. Is it a sort of "gotcha" thing a DM roes? What purpose does it serve?
Tricks and curses can be loads of fun in play, sure. They do not need to be deadly to be effective. Indeed, many of the really fun ones don't kill characters.
You see fewer curses and tricks in the published 3E/4E stuff because the overall trend was oriented towards powering up the PCs and toning down on misfortunes and mishaps. More lenient failed saving throw effects, fewer cursed items, healing surges (in 4E),and generally a greater emphasis on 'make the right choices and win your reward.' I am not saying that this playstyle is badwrongfun. I just prefer a more old school approach.
Fair enough. The way I read your earlier statement was that cursed/afflicted items came up on a more regular basis than non-cursed ones. Sorry for my misunderstanding.
As for published adventures in 4e, I do agree that cursed items and things of that sort were in short supply. The edition certainly had many of them in supplements, but in the adventures...not so much.
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
As far as why someone might sell a cursed item:
To get rid of it. Many cursed items cannot simply be abandoned. But depending on the nature of the curse, they might be claimed by another to free the owner. (This device shows up in literature, as you are probably aware)
The seller does not realize the item is cursed. "It's a magic sword. See how it shines!"
The seller is a cultist of Beshaba. Indeed, I imagine that making sure cursed items get into the hands of do-gooders, rival villains, and other fools is a major activity of Beshaban cultists.
Want to buy some magic beans? We take dairy cows.
The item is useful, but has nasty or unexpected side effects. Artifacts are normally like this, but even lesser items may carry such effects. Who says magic needs to always be convenient and easy?
Maybe that magic sword does indeed help the wielder in combat, but also drives him berserk at inopportune moments?
etc.
Those are some great ideas. I agree there is definitely a place for such things in a campaign, I guess the it more or less depends on its frequency. |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2015 : 18:37:57
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Thanks.
Two cursed items came up this year in my online Birthright game. Both were scrolls.
One was a scroll of sex change. Inconvenient for the PC, as he was soon to be married! But the curse was lifted/reversed afterward. Sadly, the player didn't get to RP the change much, because he had to drop out due to real life super busyness.
The other was a teleport trap scroll, a deliberate trick by a powerful enemy.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2015 : 13:10:47
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
What the Realms doesn't do well is actually figuring out how magic can play havoc with the economy, when some enterprising wizard can become a salt or metallurgy kingpin, or can flood the market with magical items.
I always thought that the destruction of an in-game economy was always related to the unusual pricing of chickens.  |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6654 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2015 : 13:37:10
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The Realms can't be flooded with magic items. Not if you use the item crafting magic that the "real" Realms uses - refer to Volo's Guide to All Things Magical. The magic crafting concepts enshrined in the 3E rules are abominable.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6359 Posts |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4431 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2015 : 14:24:32
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
The Realms can't be flooded with magic items.
Sure they can. Pick up pretty much ANY 3e Realms supplement, especially the adventures, and you'll find many, many, many, MANY NPCs and Monsters that are leaden with magical items and trinkets. From potions to scrolls to loads of rings of protection +1 and +1 longswords that I feel they're fairly common in a setting where there's practically two or more +5 level Wizards in any given town, hamlet, or city. In all actuality, it'd be stretching my suspension of disbelief if there WEREN'T that many magical items compared to the amount of spellcasters...
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Not if you use the item crafting magic that the "real" Realms uses - refer to Volo's Guide to All Things Magical.
Sorry but there's no such thing as "real". We have the mechanics that the designers publish as "official" to go by. Ergo, the Realms MUST be filled with magical treasures.
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
The magic crafting concepts enshrined in the 3E rules are abominable.
-- George Krashos
Meh, a bit melodramatic for my tastes. I wouldn't say abominable. I feel they were just convoluted in terms of the Maths and what could/couldn't be crafted (which was pretty much anything you can think of) that should have been toned down. Many spells shouldn't have been put into wands (Knock, Find Traps for example) that alleviate whole class concepts or crafting things like Quicken True Strike that was abused early on. But DM's quickly learned what to allow and not allow within the confines of the rules.
There's also VERY easy alternative: Don't use the Wealth-by-Level system OR use it as a simple tool OR use it as a guide that tells you when to give out bonuses. There was a site, can't remember which, that basically gave you a table of when a Character should get a bonus to Attacks, Damage, Saves, etc. that was in concert with the WBL table. By using this a DM was no longer bound to add in random "+" items to keep up with intensifying monster CRs and instead focus more on consumable items and items with better properties and materials. Of course it's all homebrewed but it was definitely better for certain campaigns than having to put X-amount of magical gear just so the PCs don't all die from CR-equivalent encounters. |
Edited by - Diffan on 20 Nov 2015 14:27:23 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6359 Posts |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4431 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2015 : 14:45:44
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I prefer ed's explanation that the realms is high fantasy not high magic, so magic items are not ten a penny, but when you get them they are awesome.
Of course after 30000 years of magical history you can probably find a magic item of some kind in every ruin (most are probably magic light sources though) but it's guarded by all kinds of nasties and every item is unique with a name and history.
True, I'm partial to magical items being interesting and fun and not just ye ol' boring +1 Battleaxe. I also don't see magical items as things "normal" people have any great access to. Your "common" +1 Battleaxe is still $2,310 gold pieces, a staggering amount if you're a common person. The thing is, 95% of Realms stories, adventures, and movers aren't anywhere near common. The vast majority of magical items are often in the hands of people who are part of an Organization (Zhents, Eldreth Veluuthra, Harpers, Knights of Myth Drannor, or a soldier for a church) or have had grand adventures that have greater access to magical items than your farmer, farrier, blacksmith, innkeeper from the Friendly Arms Inn or Phlan or some other smaller town.
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Buying magic items in the Realms?
