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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Sep 2015 : 04:02:19
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Just started reading Salvatore's Archmage, and I'm really having trouble getting into it.
The first page, and in places throughout, Lolth is running around and doing evil things. I thought one of the major promises of 5E was to reduce the direct, overt activities of the gods. It's not even that Lolth just starts the action, she comes back repeatedly as a character to push things along, and I'm only about a third of the way into the story.
The plot also seems mired down in explaining where various people are, and wrapping up threads from the previous novel. And I get that some setup is necessary, as this is the beginning of a trilogy. But this just seems really dry.
Another promise (or at least an implied promise) of 5E was to reduce super-powerful characters wandering around in plot armor, like every Chosen of this or that deity. Every single time Catti-brie shows up in the plot, we are forcibly reminded that she's both a Chosen and an Archmage. 
And so far, the drow with real power who has earned it by clawing up the ranks and surviving for millenia in Menzoberranzan - Archmage Gromph - is just wandering around being grumpy and getting tricked. Isn't he supposed to be a supra genius, with the "street smarts" of 200+ years of drow plots and schemes to bolster that? He's acting like a bit of an idiot.
I'm hoping this gets better, but this read is a slow, rather boring slog. 
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 02 Sep 2015 04:03:02
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2015 : 04:46:13
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I've tried to keep up with Driz'zt and co, I really have - but the last couple of novels I've picked up (Gauntlgrym and co) have just been too hard a slog. I enjoyed "The Companions" even though it was a transparent vehicle to get Salvatore's stable of characters into the current Realms - likely because it didn't focus on Driz'zt - but recently I've found myself skimming, which is always a bad sign. I fell behind during the 4E releases and now don't have the motivation to catch up.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2015 : 05:15:13
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As I'm reading, I keep thinking about what's missing. The story's progressing, they're meeting various people, stuff happens, etc.
But it just feels passionless.
At one point, this dwarven army is marching around, the whole army stops to visit different places, nothing really exciting happens except that Cattie-Brie is just randomly given a hugely powerful item out of the blue, and they resume their marching around.
It feels like RAS is going through a laundry list and checking things off.
MEH.
I keep having this strong feeling, like I'm Jean-Luc Picard and Guinan has just angrily told me, "This timeline must not be allowed to continue." I have never wanted a reboot to OGB more than while I'm reading this novel. Ugh.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 02 Sep 2015 05:28:01 |
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GERGE
Acolyte
9 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2015 : 07:03:51
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| It felt more like something to set the stage for the things to come, less like a proper novel. But I think you should finish it for the sake of those things to come, pretty big things happen at the end. Still, I thought archmage himself was portrayed too stupidly, he is the Archmage. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2015 : 12:21:31
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| Salvatore has noted that Gromph is pissed. I think that deep anger is what causes him to act stupidly and start playing with magic he doesn't understand. |
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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2015 : 21:12:16
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| As I've heard mention, big events and gods running around sells books. We already have one possibly stomping around in Rise of Tiamat. Sending a bunch of archfiends out into the Underdark doesn't exactly wander far from that mark. Whatever good intentions there may have been for toning down having these massive muckety mucks stirring u trouble have probably been overwhelmed (rightly) by consumer demand. |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2015 : 01:38:14
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| I'm a bit over halfway through, and I just had to stop, despite setting aside a whole day to read it. It's disgusting how Mary Sue Catti-brie is becoming, and how contrived the method he uses to gear her up. I mean, even had I not seen him mention a Catti vs Gromph encounter in Maestro, I would've guessed something like that. =_= With these novels, it's really starting to feel more and more like, whenever someone shows up with a cool item, it might take a few books, but don't you doubt it, it's going to be in the hands of Drizzt & co. Predictable story arcs are predictable, and repetitive. ._. |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2015 : 02:14:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
Just started reading Salvatore's Archmage, and I'm really having trouble getting into it.
The first page, and in places throughout, Lolth is running around and doing evil things. I thought one of the major promises of 5E was to reduce the direct, overt activities of the gods. It's not even that Lolth just starts the action, she comes back repeatedly as a character to push things along, and I'm only about a third of the way into the story.
The plot also seems mired down in explaining where various people are, and wrapping up threads from the previous novel. And I get that some setup is necessary, as this is the beginning of a trilogy. But this just seems really dry.
Another promise (or at least an implied promise) of 5E was to reduce super-powerful characters wandering around in plot armor, like every Chosen of this or that deity. Every single time Catti-brie shows up in the plot, we are forcibly reminded that she's both a Chosen and an Archmage.
And so far, the drow with real power who has earned it by clawing up the ranks and surviving for millenia in Menzoberranzan - Archmage Gromph - is just wandering around being grumpy and getting tricked. Isn't he supposed to be a supra genius, with the "street smarts" of 200+ years of drow plots and schemes to bolster that? He's acting like a bit of an idiot.
I'm hoping this gets better, but this read is a slow, rather boring slog.
How can you give an honest assessment of a book you just started? If you read all the way through, I think it's well explained how Gromph is ultimately tricked. The only one who outmaneuvers him is Kimmuriel, who himself is being manipulated by Lolth. And keep in mind that Lolth has been planning this for a long time. I think the Darkening, and Gauntlgrym, were merely diversions to make everyone (including the drow) believe that she had designs on the surface. Ultimately, her goal has something to do with conquering the Abyss. |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2015 : 02:16:15
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Well, I just finished. Thankfully it picked up in the final third, but overall this has to be my least favorite RAS novel.
Cattie-Brie's Mary Sue-ness is completely out of control. Here's basically an artifact that's a gift from your goddess - but let's upgrade it twice with superpowers anyway. Plus, let's keep reminding everyone that you're a Chosen, and that you have two still-active spellscars from two goddesses. 
Drizzt suddenly going from near death to taking care of two major enemies at the same time was just eye-rolling.
And I get that Gromph was mad and that he's quite arrogant, but this was just plain totally out of character for him.
By the way, let's just chit-chat with the gods to get advice, items, special warm fuzzies, whenever we want. /Picarddoublefacepalm
I give this a solid 2 out of 10. Incredibly disappointing.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 03 Sep 2015 02:22:05 |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2015 : 02:25:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
How can you give an honest assessment of a book you just started?
Because terrible writing is terrible writing, whether you're a third of the way through or entirely finished.
And before anyone says "he's a best-selling author, and you're not," or something equally insightful, Twilight was also a best-selling novel.
Sorry to say, Twilight was actually better than this.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 03 Sep 2015 02:29:39 |
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Joran Nobleheart
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2015 : 04:17:41
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I thought they mentioned somewhere that all the spellscars and related stuff was gone in 5E. Is that not accurate, or is this one of those things where she is a special NPC and is entitled to things like that?  |
Paladinic Ethos
Saint Joran Nobleheart |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2015 : 04:19:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Joran Nobleheart
I thought they mentioned somewhere that all the spellscars and related stuff was gone in 5E. Is that not accurate, or is this one of those things where she is a special NPC and is entitled to things like that?
I believe so. But in this novel, both of Cattie-Brie's spellscars are definitely glowy/active and doing magical things.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Joran Nobleheart
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2015 : 04:39:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Joran Nobleheart
I thought they mentioned somewhere that all the spellscars and related stuff was gone in 5E. Is that not accurate, or is this one of those things where she is a special NPC and is entitled to things like that?
I believe so. But in this novel, both of Cattie-Brie's spellscars are definitely glowy/active and doing magical things.
Ugh. I really hate it when authors break away from what has been established. That just makes me really want to stay away from his books (even more than I already do). The Dark Elf Trilogy are the only ones of his that I actually recommend to people that ask me about Realms novels. |
Paladinic Ethos
Saint Joran Nobleheart |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2015 : 13:48:00
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| Since yall are so critical of RAS (who I think is arguably the best FR novelist), what novels/trilogies/authors do you regard as being the best in the FR setting? |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2015 : 14:16:38
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The spellscars part threw me off too. At what time exactly and specifically did they stop working? The setting of Archmage is around late 1486, so perhaps it's a matter of that effect not rolling over yet? Or so I'd hope, otherwise, I'm not sure what to think about Catti-brie, in addition to having all these overpowered items and being a Chosen (by the way, why is Drizzt even worried about her passing away before him due to old age because afaik, Chosen are immortal?), has not one, but TWO effects that still work? -_-
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
Since yall are so critical of RAS (who I think is arguably the best FR novelist), what novels/trilogies/authors do you regard as being the best in the FR setting?
I know it might sound that way, but I'm really not trying to be snide, however I've gotta ask: Have you read any other FR novelist? If you've only been exposed to a few, i.e. Ed Greenwood, who despite being a great worldbuilder is kind of an awful writer, then I can totally see where you're coming from. But there's no dearth of writers in FR who are better than Salvatore, and even though I consider one of those authors a personal friend, I wouldn't hesitate to assert that it's not difficult to beat the quality of FR authors (read Rothfuss and Hobb just as a few examples).
Within FR though, my personal vote for the best is Richard Baker in his Swordmage trilogy. Richard Lee Byers is also very good, and Paul S. Kemp's Erevis Cale books are great as well.
To be fair though, anything is better than Twilight. 
Edit: My last statement wasn't entirely accurate. It's a rough toss-up between Twilight and Fifty Shades of Gray. |
Edited by - sno4wy on 03 Sep 2015 14:19:08 |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2015 : 16:49:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
Since yall are so critical of RAS (who I think is arguably the best FR novelist),
That's the problem: generally, I like RAS. I don't think he is the best FR novelist, but certainly in the top five. I simply don't know what has happened with this novel, it's so extremely disappointing.
quote:
what novels/trilogies/authors do you regard as being the best in the FR setting?
Elaine Cunningham.
Erin Evans.
Paul Kemp.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2015 : 20:03:15
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quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
I'm a bit over halfway through, and I just had to stop, despite setting aside a whole day to read it. It's disgusting how Mary Sue Catti-brie is becoming, and how contrived the method he uses to gear her up. I mean, even had I not seen him mention a Catti vs Gromph encounter in Maestro, I would've guessed something like that. =_= With these novels, it's really starting to feel more and more like, whenever someone shows up with a cool item, it might take a few books, but don't you doubt it, it's going to be in the hands of Drizzt & co. Predictable story arcs are predictable, and repetitive. ._.
Did you expect anything less?
Drizzt was the king Mary Sue character of swordsmen.
Cadderly was the Mary sue of Clerics
Kane was the Mary sue of Monks
Now that he has a mage to play with, he is going to do the same |
Edited by - Firestorm on 03 Sep 2015 20:05:52 |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2015 : 20:05:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
Since yall are so critical of RAS (who I think is arguably the best FR novelist),
That's the problem: generally, I like RAS. I don't think he is the best FR novelist, but certainly in the top five. I simply don't know what has happened with this novel, it's so extremely disappointing.
quote:
what novels/trilogies/authors do you regard as being the best in the FR setting?
Elaine Cunningham.
Erin Evans.
Paul Kemp.
Seconded. But I add Jeff Grubb/Kate Novak and Richard Lee Byers |
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GERGE
Acolyte
9 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2015 : 20:08:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
Since yall are so critical of RAS (who I think is arguably the best FR novelist), what novels/trilogies/authors do you regard as being the best in the FR setting?
I think best RAS novel I have read was Spine of the World, at was great.
As for recommendations; Halrua books of Elaine Cunningham and Netheril Trilogy are as good as any independent fantasy for shared world novels. |
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Joran Nobleheart
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2015 : 20:40:05
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| When it comes to Forgotten Realms authors, I feel that Elaine Cunningham is the best that I've read. I feel that Richard Baker is a great game designer, but shouldn't touch novels. Especially based off of The Last Mythal books. His disregard of lore that has been established is staggering, and the way he wrote the characters are just frustrating and hollow. I kept wanting someone to kill Fflar, to be honest. It's weird, reading a series on elves and finding myself cheering for the bad guys... |
Paladinic Ethos
Saint Joran Nobleheart |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2015 : 20:44:19
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| I can agree on Cunningham and Kemp, you guys. Both have written some of my favorite novels in the Realms. They aren't better than RAS to me outright, but if forced to choose among those 3, I can't say who I would pick. If you've been keeping up with RAS novels, he does give us a LOOOONNG awaited update on Shakti Hunzrin from the Starlight and Shadows trilogy. I've always loved her. |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2015 : 21:08:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Did you expect anything less?
Drizzt was the king Mary Sue character of swordsmen.
Cadderly was the Mary sue of Clerics
Kane was the Mary sue of Monks
Now that he has a mage to play with, he is going to do the same
I just feel like it's never been quite this bad before. ._. |
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GERGE
Acolyte
9 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2015 : 21:30:01
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| It also seems that Abyss is gaining power here, I wonder if Asmodeus would have something to say? |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 00:30:41
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| I found this thread very insightful. I was going to buy the book but have decided not to. I wouldn't even download it for free if I could. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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BenN
Senior Scribe
Japan
382 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 01:29:54
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I'm about half way through; it's OK, but certainly not one of RAS' best.
I find myself not particularly interested in the reconstituted Companions of the Hall; they're all too powerful, so there's no element of risk or sense of mortal danger; even with Wulfgar & Regis being badly wounded in Veangance of the Iron Dwarf, I never wondered if they would make it - even when Regis got impaled with an orc spear! You just knew they would make it.
I also find their relationships & interactions to be pretty bland & boring; in particular, Drizzt & Cattie Brie making doe-eyes at each other is insufferable. I much preferred the flawed characters of the previous group, such as Entreri, Dahlia & Effron. Sure, they were pretty nasty, but they were interesting, and their conflicts (both internal & external) made for good reading.
I also wish that RAS would stop the Drizzt monologues at the start of chapters; I know its something of a tradition now, but we get it already - we know he's a good guy, and all the guff about 'the path of righteousness' etc makes me want to hurl. Drizzt should become a paladin already..... |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 01:51:58
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quote:
Originally posted by BenN
I also find their relationships & interactions to be pretty bland & boring; in particular, Drizzt & Cattie Brie making doe-eyes at each other is insufferable.
I agree with everything you wrote, but I wanted to comment on this.
In that one Drizzt monologue where he gets dreamy-eyed about Cattie-Brie and it ends with Drizzt thinking warmly about retiring with her to Longsaddle and becoming a father, I quite literally laughed out loud.
It was one of the most painfully bad things I've ever read. Just completely terrible writing.
Insufferable is exactly how I'd describe a good portion of the dreamy perfection-romance that's "explored" in Drizzt's musings.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 05:01:38
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quote:
Originally posted by BenN
I'm about half way through; it's OK, but certainly not one of RAS' best.
I find myself not particularly interested in the reconstituted Companions of the Hall; they're all too powerful, so there's no element of risk or sense of mortal danger; even with Wulfgar & Regis being badly wounded in Veangance of the Iron Dwarf, I never wondered if they would make it - even when Regis got impaled with an orc spear! You just knew they would make it.
I also find their relationships & interactions to be pretty bland & boring; in particular, Drizzt & Cattie Brie making doe-eyes at each other is insufferable. I much preferred the flawed characters of the previous group, such as Entreri, Dahlia & Effron. Sure, they were pretty nasty, but they were interesting, and their conflicts (both internal & external) made for good reading.
I also wish that RAS would stop the Drizzt monologues at the start of chapters; I know its something of a tradition now, but we get it already - we know he's a good guy, and all the guff about 'the path of righteousness' etc makes me want to hurl. Drizzt should become a paladin already.....
I myself was much more interested in the drow plotting than the Companions part, but I wouldn't say there is no sense of danger for them. The ending provides plenty. Jarlaxle is bringing Drizzt back to Menzoberranzan, and Drizzt always seems to get easily captured by other drow. Plus, that place is even worse than usual, because it's crawling with demons. I sense plenty of danger. |
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BenN
Senior Scribe
Japan
382 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 05:20:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
I myself was much more interested in the drow plotting than the Companions part, but I wouldn't say there is no sense of danger for them. The ending provides plenty. Jarlaxle is bringing Drizzt back to Menzoberranzan, and Drizzt always seems to get easily captured by other drow. Plus, that place is even worse than usual, because it's crawling with demons. I sense plenty of danger.
Yeah, I too like the endless drow machinations & backstabbing.
Now at the halfway point, Menzo is crawling with demons, so on the face of it there is plenty of danger, you're right. But allow me to make a prediction or two:
1) Drizzt, Cattie-Brie & Bruenor all survive.
2) Some token spear-fodder die in nasty, creative ways. I'm thinking one or more of the dwarf leaders (they are all Red Shirts in my mind's eye), and a couple of the Harpells. Especially the ones with silly names, except I expect they're protected by RAS' Plot Armor +10.
On the plus side, I'm pretty creeped-out by the baby Yvonnel; she seems like Damien from The Omen, or perhaps an evil version of Kuato from Total Recall. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 13:42:05
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| I can't decide if Yvonnel is just that way because of Methil or if she has the soul of the old Yvonnel in her too. I mean with all the Chosen that popped up around that time, it would make perfect sense. |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 13:56:55
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| I'm trying to decide if titling my review, "Salvatore does his best writing in the dark elf series when he's not writing about his central characters" would be too mean. >_> |
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DandelionClock
Seeker
67 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 23:19:04
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quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
I'm trying to decide if titling my review, "Salvatore does his best writing in the dark elf series when he's not writing about his central characters" would be too mean. >_>
I think since this is a multimedia launch and not just a book, they had to stick to the flagship characters, the problem is, their stories have been told so much and so often, the side characters and new characters might have provided some fresher material. I for once would like to see them get much more screen time once this big arc has ended.
Also, I might be stubborn bordering obsessive, but it bugs me to no end Entreri and Effron are two characters that have been unaccounted for for several books/ at least two years in-story. (Really, really bugs me.) In the beginning, Jarlaxle promises Amber to find Effron, and then Jar's all over the book, as is Beniago who was seen with Effron last. I'm pretty sure he's known since Vengeance of the Dwarf where Effron is, and he either gave him back to Quick to get back into business with that one, or is going to spring him on his lobotomized mother when it serves his plans. (Lest we forget for all their fans both Jarlaxle and Kimmuriel are not good characters. Kimmuriel in particular is a scumbag.)
And Entreri is merely name dropped.
I still either want characters who still have some growth to do, or I would like to see some serious conflict inbetween the CotH. :) |
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First thoughts on Salvatore's Archmage
