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Gerrin
Acolyte
9 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Aug 2015 : 06:00:44
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I was checking out the new adventure league and was excited to see that Phlan (my personal favorite city in FR) was being highlighted. What I wasn't excited to read was the history. What happened to the history of Ren, Shal and Tarl? Very disappointed by what I read.
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2015 : 06:47:25
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Aren't those characters from a video game?
Other descriptions of Phlan don't mention them either. I don't think they are official. I had to google search to figure out who you were referring to |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2015 : 07:45:41
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There where 3 novels
Pool of Radience
Pool of Darkness
Pool of Twilight
From Memory Ren dies in one of the novels and his daughter takes his place |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2015 : 07:52:14
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Aren't those characters from a video game?
Other descriptions of Phlan don't mention them either. I don't think they are official. I had to google search to figure out who you were referring to
They appear in the Heroes' Lorebook so they are official indeed. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2015 : 11:00:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
There where 3 novels
Pool of Radience
Pool of Darkness
Pool of Twilight
From Memory Ren dies in one of the novels and his daughter takes his place
Those books are most of the reason I dislike Phlan. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2015 : 13:40:38
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Oh the first and third book are not terrible, they are decent enough books for Realms novels. The 2nd book has good characters, just a terrible plot, some awful dialogue, and really poorly written villains.
I think Shal and Tarl must have fled Phlan after the 3rd book, as the city would not tolerate them after it became a Zhent puppet city in 3rd edition? I love Phlan becuase it was my gateway to the Forgotten Realms via the old gold box games from SSI. |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2015 : 14:13:02
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Hillsfar and Phlan are two of my favourite cities.
I have a little thing for the Moonsea. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2015 : 14:40:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
Oh the first and third book are not terrible, they are decent enough books for Realms novels. The 2nd book has good characters, just a terrible plot, some awful dialogue, and really poorly written villains.
I think Shal and Tarl must have fled Phlan after the 3rd book, as the city would not tolerate them after it became a Zhent puppet city in 3rd edition? I love Phlan becuase it was my gateway to the Forgotten Realms via the old gold box games from SSI.
The first book was one of the first Realms novels I read... After I read several more, it did not stand up well, in comparison, in my opinion. I read the second one, as well, and it did not compare favorably to the first one. Between those two, I was happy to avoid the third. I've not touched those books in years, because they bothered me that much.
It is my opinion that those are among the weakest novel offerings we've had. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2015 : 14:43:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Hillsfar and Phlan are two of my favourite cities.
I have a little thing for the Moonsea.
I like the rest of the Moonsea -- it's just that those books soured me on Phlan, much in the same way that a bout of food poisoning will sour a person on a particular restaurant chain.
Having avoided Taco Bell for a couple of years due to them once giving me a very uncomfortable weekend, my analogy was chosen quite deliberately. |
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Gerrin
Acolyte
9 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2015 : 14:45:00
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The novels are no more poorly written then any of the early realms novels. The entire series has always been fairly well received. The history of phlan is the dragon run and destruction. In 1340 the three for mentioned heroes clean out parts of the city and kill one of the lost gods hosts. This is 100 years before the present storyline. In 1350 bane steals the city by using a red wizard and through the work of old and new companions they restore it. Tyr also wipes the minds of all but a select few. In 1372 their is a quest to reclaim the hammer.
But now the current history wiped out the past history from the lore book, dragon magazine, the pools novels, ruins of adventure, the 2nd edition campaign book, and a couple of other pieces of info that all have credit to this version. Instead we get this nonsense that makes phlan feel like a place where there has never been hope. Heck after the destruction of zentil keep why don't they just move here and make it the 2.0 version.
Longtime reader of the realms (started in the 90s) and just started to get re caught up in this area after having my interest picked backed up by Baker's trilogy and wanting to learn more about what happened to phlan in the 60 years since pool of twilight. This new history has done more damage then good.
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2015 : 14:45:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
[
It is my opinion that those are among the weakest novel offerings we've had.
No Im sorry that award goes to the Baldurs gate novels specficly 1 and 2
(Never bought Throne of Bhaal) |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2015 : 15:12:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Hillsfar and Phlan are two of my favourite cities.
I have a little thing for the Moonsea.
I like the rest of the Moonsea -- it's just that those books soured me on Phlan, much in the same way that a bout of food poisoning will sour a person on a particular restaurant chain.
Having avoided Taco Bell for a couple of years due to them once giving me a very uncomfortable weekend, my analogy was chosen quite deliberately.
Well it was the old Module and PC games that got me hooked on Phlan and Hillsfar. I didn't actually read the novels until later. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2015 : 15:32:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Gerrin
The novels are no more poorly written then any of the early realms novels. The entire series has always been fairly well received.
Azure Bonds and Spellfire were also early Realms novels -- the Pools books don't even come close to them.
And I've never seen anything to indicate they were "fairly well received" -- I know some folks have liked them, but I've seen far more negative commentary on them, including comments that make mine seem relatively mild. |
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Gerrin
Acolyte
9 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2015 : 16:00:41
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Check out goodreads as it has over 1800 rates and is a 3.5 star book compared to 3.6 reviews of the novels if spellfire and azure bonds. It is no streams of silver which receives a 4.1 average review. So I will stand by my previous statement that this book was no worse or better then the books released in the late 80's.
Overall reviews place this series on the same par as the finder stones trilogy.
Being a fan of other adventure series those that don't like something seem to be always more vocal then others.
But still back to the original question why is the original history being tossed. This would be like tossing out the finders stone trilogy or moonshae. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2015 : 19:36:39
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quote:
Wooly Rupert
quote:
Pool of Radience
Pool of Darkness
Pool of Twilight
Those books are most of the reason I dislike Phlan.
I agree, these were (in my opinion) badly-written FR novels filled with badly-unbelievable (and unlikeable) FR characters - although I have read worse. However, the raw awesomeness of Phlan and the Moonsea - established by the eponymous CRPG and FRC1 supplement - remains firmly entrenched in my mind.
The only use I ever got out of these awful "official" characters was from placing their corpses in Sokol Keep for the PCs to find, worry about, discuss, and loot. Ren, Shal, and Tarl were far more pleasant (and less munchkin) to me dead than alive. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2015 : 20:51:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Gerrin
But now the current history wiped out the past history from the lore book, dragon magazine, the pools novels, ruins of adventure, the 2nd edition campaign book, and a couple of other pieces of info that all have credit to this version.
How so? Ren is even mentioned in a couple of the season 1 adventures |
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Gerrin
Acolyte
9 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2015 : 22:21:23
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From what I have read in the adventures league none of what was previously published never happened as the dragon rage happened instead. Not sure why there is so much hate for the characters?
I know the book series has not stood the test of time and was written for kids 12-16, and it was written under the tsr thumb so the plot was laid out, the author had little control on the plot. The same hatred of these characters and reasoning for their hate can be easily transferred to any other forgotten realm series of the 80s and 90s. Very few 3d characters, or guessing on how the plot is going to end.
At the end of the day though the canon history was replaced apparently in 3rd edition although I'm not a 100% sure as I don't have 3rd edition stuff for the realms. I'm going to reach out to some friends to get the inside scoop. I'm glad to see candle keep is still active. |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2015 : 23:55:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Gerrin
From what I have read in the adventures league none of what was previously published never happened as the dragon rage happened instead.
The rage happened some years after the events of the last novel
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2015 : 00:12:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Gerrin
From what I have read in the adventures league none of what was previously published never happened as the dragon rage happened instead.
The rage happened some years after the events of the last novel
Many years after, at that.
I'm not familiar with anything that says those books aren't canon. I'm similarly unaware of anything saying their events were overwritten.
...As much as I might wish otherwise, of course. |
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Gerrin
Acolyte
9 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2015 : 01:38:49
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Past Storyline:
1340 Phlan is restored,
1350 Phlan is stolen,
1372 The Hammer of Tyr is returned to Phlan
Storyline according to Adventure's League:
1340 Srossar is possessed
1340's: Srossar is defeated and the Pool of Radiance becomes normal water,
1356 Phlan is leveled by the Flight of Dragons, after a decade plus of peace.
1356-75 Ruins are occupied and controlled by a great wyrm,
1375 Zhentil Keep takes control of Phlan and slays the wyrm.
So in the new storyline you could argue that the events of the Pool of Radiance happened but Phlan being stolen and the Hammer of Tyr returned can not happen.
This is from Tyranny of Dragons. |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2015 : 02:32:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Gerrin
Past Storyline:
1340 Phlan is restored,
1350 Phlan is stolen,
1372 The Hammer of Tyr is returned to Phlan
Storyline according to Adventure's League:
1340 Srossar is possessed
1340's: Srossar is defeated and the Pool of Radiance becomes normal water,
1356 Phlan is leveled by the Flight of Dragons, after a decade plus of peace.
1356-75 Ruins are occupied and controlled by a great wyrm,
1375 Zhentil Keep takes control of Phlan and slays the wyrm.
So in the new storyline you could argue that the events of the Pool of Radiance happened but Phlan being stolen and the Hammer of Tyr returned can not happen.
This is from Tyranny of Dragons.
And that is why you don't let certain people go anywhere near the Forgotten Realms. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Gerrin
Acolyte
9 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2015 : 03:02:13
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As a former writer for 3.5 Dragonlance this is something that has always bothered me and something we worked hard to avoid. I thought that whoever is doing the realms wikia had a pretty good history written for Phlan.
Phlan is somewhat of a special place for me as it is my first introduction to Forgotten Realms in books and RPG. It bothers me when someone takes this and just throws it to the wayside to inject their own "perfect" history. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2015 : 05:32:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Gerrin
Past Storyline:
1340 Phlan is restored,
1350 Phlan is stolen,
1372 The Hammer of Tyr is returned to Phlan
Storyline according to Adventure's League:
1340 Srossar is possessed
1340's: Srossar is defeated and the Pool of Radiance becomes normal water,
1356 Phlan is leveled by the Flight of Dragons, after a decade plus of peace.
1356-75 Ruins are occupied and controlled by a great wyrm,
1375 Zhentil Keep takes control of Phlan and slays the wyrm.
So in the new storyline you could argue that the events of the Pool of Radiance happened but Phlan being stolen and the Hammer of Tyr returned can not happen.
This is from Tyranny of Dragons.
Just tweak the lore a tiny bit: a duplicate of the city was left in place of the real Phlan, when it was stolen.
Or, since I'm not familiar with any other references to the disappearance of Phlan, a duplicate was what was stolen... Or maybe it wasn't even stolen at all; it was a grand illusion or something that made the inhabitants of the city think it was elsewhere. |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2015 : 09:09:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Gerrin
So in the new storyline you could argue that the events of the Pool of Radiance happened but Phlan being stolen and the Hammer of Tyr returned can not happen.
I don't See a Problem with the City being stolen, didn't that last only a few weeks/months?
I admit i don't remember the return if the Hammer, i thought the novel ended with Tyr thinking retrieving it would be a good quest for a paladin one day.
Why could it not be brought back into the occupied City.
Wasn't phlan being occupied after some crippling desaster by joint forces From zhentil keep and hilsfar a 2e thing already? |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1152 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2015 : 14:30:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
Wasn't phlan being occupied after some crippling desaster by joint forces From zhentil keep and hilsfar a 2e thing already?
You're thinking of Yulash. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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Gerrin
Acolyte
9 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2015 : 18:48:21
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| I have an idea about meshing these together as I was told that both histories are going to be canon |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2015 : 19:22:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Just tweak the lore a tiny bit: a duplicate of the city was left in place of the real Phlan, when it was stolen.
Or, since I'm not familiar with any other references to the disappearance of Phlan, a duplicate was what was stolen... Or maybe it wasn't even stolen at all; it was a grand illusion or something that made the inhabitants of the city think it was elsewhere.
I'd go with the 'Ravenloft fix' - it got pulled into the Mists, and then was somehow later returned (the gods of FR don't take kindly to 'The Dark Powers' stealing their stuff, etc).
By sending it to 'The Mists' (and it didn't even have to be in Ravenloft proper - it could have been one of those 'Islands of Terror' that are off by themselves) we solve EVERY problem; Ravenloft's time not only runs differently then all the worlds it interacts with (meaning that a hundred years could have gone by in Phlan, but only a few days on Toril, or vice-versa), but 'The Mists' also mess with people's memories, so they may have thought they never left, or thought they may think they went somewhere else (other then the Domains of Dread). So the folks living there may all recall one set of lore (history), and that just leaves the rest of Faerűn scratching their heads, knowing something different.
Ravenloft is really the ultimate 'fix' for these sorts of lore snafus. In fact, I wouldn't mind if a few 'lost realms' (from the Spellplague) were actually there for awhile (like Lantan).
EDIT: And Ravenloft HAS been known to leave 'copies' of stolen sites behind, as Wooly suggested. It did so with Lord Soth from Dragonlance - it stole him and his town for years and then returned him around the same time he was stolen, so no-one on Krynn realized it ever happened. D&D canon, not FR, but entirely portable. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Aug 2015 05:19:18 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2015 : 19:45:27
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| I hated the books. I almost didn't "get into" the Realms because of them. But since my introduction to the Realms was the Moonshae series (excellent stories, IMHO) followed by the Crystal Shard and other RAS goodness, I let those novels pass. Like Wooley, however, I was soured on Phlan from those novels. That said, I would like to play the video game series...provided it can be ported to a modern PC. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2015 : 20:57:42
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Other than Ren, Shal, and Tarl (who I liked!)---the 2nd and 3rd books had other characters that were likeable; an undead paladin of Tyr, a sorceress who made it her life goal to banish the pools, Ren's daughter, Shal & Tarl's son, a werecat warrior, and others. I maintain they weren't THAT bad, and the Baldur's Gate novels, and Once around the Realms are worse.
The third book is probably the best written of the three, although I like the first best as I'm a sucker for anything set pre-ToT. You guys are harsh critics :)
And it annoys the frig out of me that the first Realms city many people were introduced to (Phlan via Pool of Radiance from SSI) is treated with such disdain for canon/history. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2015 : 00:23:15
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Reply to Seravin:
I never read the Baldur's Gate books, which is surprising considering that the BG series of games is still one of my favorites (going on 15+ years now). I'll take your word for it that they're worse. The series wasn't the best of novels I've read and, frankly, I stopped reading most Realm's novels some time ago because the writing is never as sophisticated as G.R.R. Martin or Stephen King (just as a couple of examples). Granted, Realms authors are on a timetable and often have their plots laid out for them...but some authors can work within that context and still provide an excellent story/characters (Erin M. Evans springs to mind).
Part of the reason I didn't like the novels is the fact that I prefer more realistic story elements, even in a fantasy setting. The idea of entire cities disappearing annoys me. It was done with the entire world in one of the Dragonlance novels as well. I just don't like that sort of thing. Wizards blowing up castles? Sure. A band of stalwart adventurers defeating a great wyrm? Sure. Elves being able to do things that only gods normally do? Okay I can go with that up to a point. But cities disappearing/reappearing? Nope...goes too far.
The other thing that annoyed me...and this seems to have become a 'thing' in Realms novels...is the tendency to want to have a new kind of race in every story. You laid it out yourself: an undead paladin of Tyr and a werecat warrior. Today we have Dragonborn and Tieflings (although Evans still made them great characters). We also had sauriels and other 'strange new races' in novels.
After a while, it gets to a point where it becomes difficult to suspend one's belief. I'm not saying they can't be great characters or that they aren't great characters. I'm just saying at some point enough is enough. Sometimes I just want the standard tropes of dwarves, elves, hobbits and hoomans. Phlan, much of the story centered on it, and the characters just weren't that interesting to me.
To each his own though. I'm glad some people enjoyed them and we still have this wonderful thing called The Forgotten Realms. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
Edited by - The Arcanamach on 27 Aug 2015 00:26:36 |
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What Happened To Phlan's History
