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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Aug 2015 : 00:27:14
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@Dazzlerdal: Do those downloads at GOG come complete with updates for modern computers though?
EDIT: Nevermind just found out they are adapted for today's 'puters.  |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
Edited by - The Arcanamach on 27 Aug 2015 00:32:10 |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2015 : 01:12:37
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| Hi Arcanamach---don't get me wrong, Pools of Darkness (book 2) was definitely the worst of the series and the plot was ridiculous to me, and some of the dialogue of the villains was borderline atrocious. I just didn't hate it because of the new heroes introduced and my love of Phlan/Moonsea area. :) |
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Gerrin
Acolyte
9 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2015 : 02:34:34
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quote:
Or, since I'm not familiar with any other references to the disappearance of Phlan, a duplicate was what was stolen... Or maybe it wasn't even stolen at all; it was a grand illusion or something that made the inhabitants of the city think it was elsewhere.
I'd go with the 'Ravenloft fix' - it got pulled into the Mists, and then was somehow later returned (the gods of FR don't take kindly to 'The Dark Powers' stealing their stuff, etc).
By sending it to 'The Mists' (and it didn't even have to be in Ravenloft proper - it could have been one of those 'Islands of Terror' that are off by themselves) we solve EVERY problem; Ravenloft's time not only runs differently then all the worlds it interacts with (meaning that a hundred years could have gone by in Phlan, but only a few days on Toril, or vice-versa), but 'The Mists' also mess with people's memories, so they may have thought they never left, or thought they may think they went somewhere else (other then the Domains of Dread). So the folks leaving there may all recall one set of lore (history), and that just leaves the rest of Faerûn scratching their heads, knowing something different.
Ravenloft is really the ultimate 'fix' for these sorts of lore snafus. In fact, I wouldn't mind if a few 'lost realms' (from the Spellplague) were actually there for awhile (like Lantan).
EDIT: And Ravenloft HAS been known to leave 'copies' of stolen sites behind, as Wooly suggested. It did so with Lord Soth from Dragonlance - it stole him and his town for years and then returned him around the same time he was stolen, so no-one on Krynn realized it ever happened. D&D canon, not FR, but entirely portable.
When you approach a fictional history you have to look at your source materials. The materials that were written by TSR/WotC that are considered canon.
Now the problem with the mists of Ravenloft is that you have to use Pools of Darkness as your reference point both the novel and the computer game which are both official products. Although the computer game is not canon, the novel is. In the novel Phlan is not transported to some distant plane. It is moved to another location in the world as the god Bane wants the souls to enter the Pools of Darkness (I know, whats this other plane part of the plot) Basically from reading the book you can gather that the citizens of these stolen cities are needed to give Bane an endless supply of souls. If he can syphon a few off right away Bane can have the power to move the city to a distant plane to have the city serve him for all time.
So the city of Phlan actually never leaves the Forgotten Realms world. Also where the city once stood those that returned begin to form New Phlan. So a copy of the city would not exist at this time.
In the adventure league's history it has Phlan at peace for over 10 years. This conflicts with the information given in Pools of Darkness as Phlan has been under attacks and threats over the years as given by the guards account of the history of the Death Gates.
This though gives one to have a tantalizing thought that these attacks were sponsored by Zhentil Keep, this would set up the takeover that occurs in 1375.
Furthermore in the Pool of Darkness, Phlan has reached a state of decay, the cause given in the book is simply that the hammer of Tyr is missing. Now in the timeline of the Adventure's League they have Phlan getting hit by the Rage of Dragons in 1356 with one of them assuming control. Now this can still work as this attack could occur and could explain a lot of the problems has in 1372 when Kern goes questing for the hammer. You have an giant dragon who has assumed human form running the council of ten. This dragon is constantly keeping Phlan in a run down state, unmanning the walls, reducing the watch, etc as the dragon knows that any real threat it could handle.
Now with the return of the Hammer of Tyr, this could have weakened the dragons hold on the city and started to allow its citizens to rebuild. The dragon/first councilman fights against this but in the end the Zhentarium sweep in and slay the dragon and take control of the city. Most of the citizens welcome the order that the Black Network brings and do little to overthrow it. Some people like Shal, Tarl and their son flee to another nearby city such as Mulmaster to live out their days in exile from their beloved city.
I am putting together a draft for the whole history. Just need to find the Grubb manuscript that I have lying around here somewhere and piece that in as well.
Also the official canon on Dragonlance has Lord Soth never having left Krynn. Its a touchy subject one in which we discussed for nearly a decade in debate. |
Edited by - Gerrin on 27 Aug 2015 02:46:01 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2015 : 05:28:11
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Well, then, we have our very own FR fix for something like that - Abeir and the Spellplague.
Abeir isn't in another part of space - it occupies the same place as Toril, but slightly out-of-sync. Thus, Abeir and Toril are really both FR, and the city was 'moved' but not in space, but rather, slightly out-of-sync and into Abeir.
There was some Spellplague-like weirdness going on during the ToT, perhaps Bane - having gotten a face-full of that - learned a trick or two about 'Wild Magic Zones' and planer chaos.
Once it shifted back, no-one remembered anything, and all was well. Why would no-one remember? Because Ao would be the one to make sure it was returned to its proper place, and he doesn't want anyone knowing about Abeir, AND he has pulled that 'False memories' trick before (right after the ToT, so people would forget he existed).
And now I have a pounding headache - I think I've created a space/time anomaly by being in 3 editions at once.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Aug 2015 05:29:44 |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2015 : 14:12:41
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I don’t see a need to ‘fix’ things as mentioned (somewhere) on the Adventure Leagues forums the Zhent’s took control of the city in 1375. Then over the course of hundred years they rewrote it. To put themselves in the better light as the ‘true saviors’ of Phlan. The official timeline still stands but from a modern citizen of Phlan point-of-view Hatemaster Cvaal was a hero.
And here is a re-post of compiled timeline plus miscellaneous lore:
For those following at home who wish to know more about Phlan I include the names of the resources used. These resources can be found at used bookstores, wizards website, or dndclassics.com:
Monument of the Ancients Dungeon #170, The Grand History of the Realms, The Moonsea 2nd edition, The Pools novels,Heroes’ Lorebook, The Forgotten Realms Atlas, Ruins of Adventure 1st edition, and A History of Phlan and the Moonsea Reaches by Jeff Grubbs.
367 DR Year of Shying Eyes: Phlan was founded.
400 DR Year of the Blue Shield: Phlan was sacked by the inhuman army known as the Dark Alliance.
712 DR Year of the Lost Lance: Milsor the Valjevo and his adventuring companions re-establishes Phlan. He commissions the construction of a palace.
730 DR Year of the Jovial Mage: Construction is completed on Castle Valjevo.
902 DR Year of the Queen’s Tears: The Zhentilar attempts the first conquest of Phlan. War lasts four years.
906 DR Year of the Plough: The Treaty of the Ride is signed between Phlan , Zhentarim, and Melvaunt.
1303 DR Year of the Evening Sun: An army of ogres from Thar completely overrun Phlan.
1306 DR Year of Thunder: Moonsea War against Mulmaster. Phlan is reduced to ruins by The Dragon Run.
1340 DR Year of the Lion: Tyranthraxus, possess the body of Srossar, an ancient bronze dragon. He claims the Pool of Radiance then corrupts it by sacrificing the local Selûnite priestess. He then proceeds to rule the ruins of Phlan.
1350 DR Year of the Morning Star: Bane "removes" various Moonsea cities to another plane. The Heroes of Phlan rescues the cities from the evil god.
1356 DR Year of the Worm: A Flight of Dragons occures and Phlan is decimated along with other cities of the Moonsea.
1372 DR Year of Wild Magic: Undead Paladin Miltiades is restored to life in the city of Phlan.
1375 DR Year of Risen Elfkin: Zhentarim Hatemaster Cvaal Daoran seized control of the Phlan.
1380 DR Year if the Blazing Hand: The Council of Ten is dissolved and Cvaal Daoran declares himself Lord Protector of Phlan. The Order of the Silent Shroud was established and resides in the Valhingen Graveyard.
1383 DR Year of the Vindicated Warrior: Cvaal Daoran slays a Prince of Shade in the Shadowbane War.
1456 DR Year of the Mithral Hammer: Lord Talaric Daoran goes missing after sending loggers into the Quivering Forest.
1480 DR Year of the Deep Water Drifting: Attacks by local Vaegould barbarian tribe of the Ride are due to the perceived coming of Maram, a primordial. They are stopped by a group of adventurers.
1488 DR Year of Dwarvenkind Reborn: The heirless Lord Protector Anivar Daoran dies in a construction accident at Castle Valjevo. Knight Commander Ector Brahms becomes the new Lord Regent of the Cinnabar Throne. After martial law was declared the great temple of Bane burns to the ground. Followers of Lathander repurpose the temple to the god of dawn and rebirth.
1489 DR Year of the Warrior Princess(?): Apparently, someone or something in or around Phlan is defiant.
Phlan trivia:
The Pool of Radiance in Phlan is waning crescent shaped.
Ren o’ the Blade had a daughter whose name was Daile Redfletching.
The Welcomers have aided the citizens of Phlan in the past as scouts and defenders.
Stojanow means “Trade Route,” in the dwarven language.
The Red Spyglass Inn has something special in its subbasement.
Diogenes, a silver dragon, lives in the Dragonspine Mountains.
In Ruins of Adventure it was possible for the players to visit the Lizadrmen of Sauros Island on friendly terms. If they completed Sorcerer’s Island first and rescued the lizarmen then they were invited to their home. After a grand feast they received an enchanted bronze medallion marking them as friends to all lizardfolk. It only worked for those characters and their future heirs.
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I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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GungHo
Seeker
USA
68 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2015 : 14:36:28
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| Never live in a city with a name that is homophonic with a dessert. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2015 : 16:59:15
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quote:
Originally posted by GungHo
Never live in a city with a name that is homophonic with a dessert.
Pretty sure that no one in the Realms is familiar with flan.  |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Gerrin
Acolyte
9 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2015 : 02:09:58
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| I can live with this timeline although I do hate the this is what the average person thinks in Phlan. It is something that has been used to much to try to cover up screw ups. If it is something that only the average person in Phlan would know then it should be listed as this. I appreciate the attempt to mesh the two together, but this is something that I have started working on as well. You should see it in the near future. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2018 : 06:45:12
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So I'm reading the Monument of the Ancients adventure and I really want to re-introduce the establishment of Tyr's Church, the Hammer of Tyrm and the notion that Tyr during the Spellplague was never killed or destroyed but was enslaved instead by Asmodeus to achieve a sort of divine godhood.
Any speculations (since we don't have anything official) as to what happened to the Temple of Waiting (Tyr's bastion of defense in Phlan) and how it fared during the Zhentarim attack and subsequent occupation of the city in 1375 DR?
We know that Kern obtained the Hammer of Tyr in 1372 DR and brought it back to the city. We know that the during his quest the city and temple was severely hindered by attacks from Sirana aided by the Pool of Twilight. So one could surmise that the temple could only offer a weak (at best) defense against a full Zhent assault.
What do you think would've happened to Shal Bal, Tarl, Kern and Listle? Denlor's tower still remains in Phlan according the the latest Adventure League quests.
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2018 : 01:35:42
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| The Temple of Waiting was constructed on the site of the old Temple of Bane (from Pool of Radiance). When Zhentil Keep later captured the city, the temple was once again consecrated to Bane and renamed the Lyceum of the Black Lord. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2018 : 12:25:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
The Temple of Waiting was constructed on the site of the old Temple of Bane (from Pool of Radiance). When Zhentil Keep later captured the city, the temple was once again consecrated to Bane and renamed the Lyceum of the Black Lord.
Thanks Brian. I wasn't sure as I have a couple of maps of Phlan, one of which is pretty detailed yet putting the Temple of Waiting across the from the ruins of the Bane Temple near the Docks by the Laughing Goblin Inn. The map is found HERE. The map in Monument of the Ancients adventure and subsequent Adventure League adventures from Tyranny of Dragons all sort of use the map from Dungeon #170. Just trying to figure out which one is best to use for the reemergence of Tyr in my world.
Also, what's your take on the owner and caretakers of current (1480-1489 DR) Denlor's Tower? Surely Shal Bal and Tarl aren't alive after over a century has passed. Listle was Shal's apprentice in 1372 DR and being presumably a gold elf (despite an illusory one) has the advantage of a long life, thus a century to her would be nothing and she's still the resident. |
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What Happened To Phlan's History
