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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Aug 2015 : 23:37:15
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I did a quick search, I thought I'd seen this asked before, but I didn't see it.
Headstones in Faerun, what designs do they take? Crosses are typical in America, like at Arlington, presumably due to Christian influence. In cases of Jewish faith, you'll see a Star of David instead of a cross. With a pantheonic society, that wouldn't necessarily be the case.
Does the Realms do your standard rounded headstone with maybe a deity's emblem carved into the top? Is a flat plaque at the head of the grave typical?
Do certain faiths have a unique headstone design? Maybe a sunburst on an obelisk for Lathander or something?
Has Ed mentioned any differences like this?
If there's nothing official, I'm open to speculation. I've got it in my head to do a diorama of a graveyard as part of the 3D terrain I use in my games, and thought I'd give it a more "Realmsy" flavor. As some deity emblems are more difficult to slap on top of a stick than a Star of David or Cross, I was looking for ideas beyond a rounded tomb stone with a deity emblem carved on it.
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- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2015 : 16:40:47
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Not sure if tombstones are even used that much in Faerun.
For example, Waterdeeps City of the Dead has tombs for its dead spread over an area the size of an entire ward. Its graves were replaced in the late 13th century DR, because of space issues. So common sights are burial vaults and crypts, adorned with religious monuments (like somber angelic statues or grotesque gargoyles) with little entrance steps into cold mortared underground rooms, with walls filled with row on row of corpses. People that can afford it (most noble clans) have family mausolea built on portals that link to extra dimensional spaces where the honored dead are laid to rest. A clans' servants tend to be included on family grounds if the clan elder deems them worthy (or in older more savage lands demands their sacrifice to ease their god of the death's judgement).
Eventually the people who can afford a permanent tomb (successful adventurers, artisans and merchants) are few and far between. Most commoners are probably burned (perhaps after having been laid and preserved in a crypt for a significant period of mourning). |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2015 : 16:44:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Not sure if tombstones are even used that much in Faerun.
For example, Waterdeeps City of the Dead has tombs for its dead spread over an area the size of an entire ward. Its graves were replaced in the late 13th century DR, because of space issues. So common sights are burial vaults and crypts, adorned with religious monuments (like somber angelic statues or grotesque gargoyles) with little entrance steps into cold mortared underground rooms, with walls filled with row on row of corpses. People that can afford it (most noble clans) have family mausolea built on portals that link to extra dimensional spaces where the honored dead are laid to rest. A clans' servants tend to be included on family grounds if the clan elder deems them worthy (or in older more savage lands demands their sacrifice to ease their god of the death's judgement).
Eventually the people who can afford a permanent tomb (successful adventurers, artisans and merchants) are few and far between. Most commoners are probably burned (perhaps after having been laid and preserved in a crypt for a significant period of mourning).
So it'd be safe to assume that temples of various gods have catacombs beneath them for the deceased of their faith?
What about more rural settlements? Is it safe to assume cremation is the default in any given area? |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2015 : 17:13:21
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It depends. Most would probably adapt the amount of protection the corpse gets to the threats the corpse will probably face. (Demi-)Humans of Faerun need to take in account carrion feeders, grave robbers, necromantic corpse defilement and rate of decay/preservation in the local climate.
Area's with access to plentiful stone and stoneworkers and high decay rates will probably try to make graves from stone and will try to mitigate the stench of the decomposing corpses. Sarcophagi made from heavy stone slabs might prevent easy grave robbing, and inclusion of herbs and spices will mitigate stench. Perhaps stone caves are hewed out to allow for more corpses and sealed with heavy stone slabs.
Areas with access to streaming water will favor the (burning) burial at sea/river/lake option.
Areas with lots of woodland might favor burning, with grave hills left only for kingly figures, accessed by stone dolmen entrances.
In most maps of small villages cemetaries are absent. So if rural area has a communal graveyard, it might be several miles off from a couple of settlements, far enough that an outbreak of undead can be repelled in time (by your traveling adventuring party, locally mustered militia or passing kingmens patrol.
EDIT:
And in these rural communal cemetaries I think one would probably see our traditional gravepit and headstone designs. These headstones can be intricate stoneworked inscriptions detailing the name and lifetimes of a person, adorned with symbols of his or her clan, patron deity and country/state; or they can be a simple piles of stones with a wooden plank for its inscriptions or something in between.
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
Edited by - Bladewind on 19 Aug 2015 17:38:03 |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2015 : 17:32:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
It depends. Most would probably adapt the amount of protection the corpse gets to the threats the corpse will probably face. (Demi-)Humans of Faerun need to take in account carrion feeders, grave robbers, necromantic corpse defilement and rate of decay/preservation in the local climate.
Area's with access to plentiful stone and stoneworkers and high decay rates will probably try to make graves from stone and will try to mitigate the stench of the decomposing corpses. Sarcophagi made from heavy stone slabs might prevent easy grave robbing, and inclusion of herbs and spices will mitigate stench. Perhaps stone caves are hewed out to allow for more corpses and sealed with heavy stone slabs.
Areas with access to streaming water will favor the (burning) burial at sea/river/lake option.
Areas with lots of woodland might favor burning, with grave hills left only for kingly figures, accessed by stone dolmen entrances.
In most maps of small villages cemetaries are absent. So if rural area has a communal graveyard, it might be several miles off from a couple of settlements, far enough that an outbreak of undead can be repelled in time (by your traveling adventuring party, locally mustered militia or passing kingmens patrol.
Thanks for the input! It does make sense, now that you mention it. In a world where undead are a real thing, having fields of minions free for the taking to any passing necromancer might not be a good idea.
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- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Rymac
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2015 : 18:49:29
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| I would only add that different faiths would have different ceremonies and traditions in how their dead are memorialized, prepared, and buried/interred. The difference would be vast between the faiths of Lathander vs Shar, or Kelemvor vs Velsharoon (or Myrkul). |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7978 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2015 : 22:19:29
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I would expect burning/cremation to be far more common than burial in a world threatened by undeath.
Monotheism usually promotes burial, often with prized possessions, apparently so the dead can remain "intact" throughout their afterlife. Polytheisms usually promote burning, apparently so the transcendant spirits of the dead won't be anchored to our world or so that the pervasive spirits of the dead can't afflict the living. This tends to cause a lot of grief when religions collide, each attempts to service the dead "properly" while being horrified by the "atrocities" inflicted on the dead by the other.
Harsh environments tend to harden people's opinions of death, it holds less fear on them (unless the manner of death is truly awful, like an incurable plague or somesuch). And they tend to view the bodies of the deceased as empty husks, the living will take whatever the dead no longer need to continue surviving.
Some religions place more emphasis on the ceremony than on the actual disposal of the body, the rituals must be performed, the words must be spoken, the people must do whatever they do to remember and celebrate and honor the deceased. I think this ritualistic ceremony might hold much more significance for people of the Realms than it does for most of us, since magic and divine interventions (and even complete resurrections) can manifest in their world often and in very real, clearly unambiguous ways.
Common folk might prefer some sort of burning or destruction of their remains, nobody wants to see their loved ones return as zombies, most people can't afford things like holy water or eternal rest ceremonial magics to protect against it. More affluent folk might prefer some sort of burial, possibly in the hopes of communing with or raising the worthiest dead - it seems like crypts and mausoleums and catacombs are in every city and near every large village in Faerun, and these places need to be filled with dead bodies to be useful places for adventurers to visit! It seems like gargoyles and sarcophagi and mummification are, or at least once were, immensely popular as well. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2015 : 04:46:31
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Thanks for the feedback, guys! I really hadn't thought of polytheism having that kind of view of the afterlife, but it makes sense in the way Ayrik pointed out. Add to that the undead factor, and now I see why graveyards are usually missing from maps.
Learn something new all the time.  |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2015 : 10:00:26
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you know what, the uthgart, wont likely use a tombstone as I bet they would all get a warrior's funeral aka funeral pyre.
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why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7978 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2015 : 23:00:06
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Haha, I'd always thought Uthgardt would prefer Kurgan-style barrows. I recall some mention in one of the novels that worthy champions would be put to "rest" (wearing weapons and armour ready for battle) in some special shamanistic-ancestral fashion which promises they will guard their tribe and return to fight whenever desperately needed. Could be campfire stories, could be powerful tribal magics, sorry I can't recall.
We're always told that - unless they meet a violent end in battle - elves "go west" or somehow mysteriously vanish when it's time for them to die. Seems ridiculous to me, they can't all just step sideways into the Feywild or teleport to Evermeet at the last moment of their life. Methinks they must just plant them in the ground underneath a nice tree, in a secret fashion (especially from non-elves) so that outsiders cannot violate their remains - I'm imagining an elven "burial detail" composed of commando ranger-mages employing paranoid stealth, lol.
Dead halflings? I have no idea. Maybe they're decomposed into wine and cheese?
We all know how solemn dwarves get about death. Fanatically obsessed with death, really, unless they're busy helping some kind of non-dwarf meet death a bit faster. They build entire mountain strongholds filled with treasures mined over a century just to properly bury an epic dwarf. Kinda like Pharoahs and pyramids, but probably more drinking and fewer whips and much less sense of humour. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2015 : 23:12:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Haha, I'd always thought Uthgardt would prefer Kurgan-style barrows. I recall some mention in one of the novels that worthy champions would be put to "rest" (wearing weapons and armour ready for battle) in some special shamanistic-ancestral fashion which promises they will guard their tribe and return to fight whenever desperately needed. Could be campfire stories, could be powerful tribal magics, sorry I can't recall.
We're always told that - unless they meet a violent end in battle - elves "go west" or somehow mysteriously vanish when it's time for them to die. Seems ridiculous to me, they can't all just step sideways into the Feywild or teleport to Evermeet at the last moment of their life. Methinks they must just plant them in the ground underneath a nice tree, in a secret fashion (especially from non-elves) so that outsiders cannot violate their remains - I'm imagining an elven "burial detail" composed of commando ranger-mages employing paranoid stealth, lol.
Dead halflings? I have no idea. Maybe they're decomposed into wine and cheese?
We all know how solemn dwarves get about death. Fanatically obsessed with death, really, unless they're busy helping some kind of non-dwarf meet death a bit faster. They build entire mountain strongholds filled with treasures mined over a century just to properly bury an epic dwarf. Kinda like Pharoahs and pyramids, but probably more drinking and fewer whips and much less sense of humour.
Which reminds me, Bruenor was buried in a stone Sarcophagus, wasn't he? Or, at least, he pretended to be. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2015 : 23:13:59
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For what it is worth, canon did (if no longer does) indicate that the faithful of Eilistraee were buried, foes burned (2nd Edition). It did not say anything about tombstones or markers for the grave.
In one role play for a surface burial I planted a tree for each the three fallen faithful (clearly not canon, just felt right to me at the time). |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2015 : 23:16:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
For what it is worth, canon did (if no longer does) indicate that the faithful of Eilistraee were buried, foes burned (2nd Edition). It did not say anything about tombstones or markers for the grave.
In one role play for a surface burial I planted a tree for each the three fallen faithful (clearly not canon, just felt right to me at the time).
So there is canon support for a more traditional burial, but not necessarily a headstone or grave marker. Good to know. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2015 : 23:25:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
For what it is worth, canon did (if no longer does) indicate that the faithful of Eilistraee were buried, foes burned (2nd Edition). It did not say anything about tombstones or markers for the grave.
In one role play for a surface burial I planted a tree for each the three fallen faithful (clearly not canon, just felt right to me at the time).
So there is canon support for a more traditional burial, but not necessarily a headstone or grave marker. Good to know.
Yes at least in second and maybe third Edition. I can not refer third Edition right now. As for 4th Edition the Goddesses did not exist, she does have some appearance in 5th, however it is possible canon has changed. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2015 : 23:55:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
For what it is worth, canon did (if no longer does) indicate that the faithful of Eilistraee were buried, foes burned (2nd Edition). It did not say anything about tombstones or markers for the grave.
In one role play for a surface burial I planted a tree for each the three fallen faithful (clearly not canon, just felt right to me at the time).
So there is canon support for a more traditional burial, but not necessarily a headstone or grave marker. Good to know.
Yes at least in second and maybe third Edition. I can not refer third Edition right now. As for 4th Edition the Goddesses did not exist, she does have some appearance in 5th, however it is possible canon has changed.
Gotcha. As long as it happened at one time or another in the past two centuries, I'm good. Thanks! |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2015 : 00:53:02
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I pulled up the 2nd Edition text.
quote:
When faithful and allies of a
priest fall in battle, any priest present must, if possible, provide
burial, a funeral song, and comfort to the bereaved.
As you see here no marker in the dogma/rules of actions. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2015 : 01:37:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
I pulled up the 2nd Edition text.
quote:
When faithful and allies of a
priest fall in battle, any priest present must, if possible, provide
burial, a funeral song, and comfort to the bereaved.
As you see here no marker in the dogma/rules of actions.
Thanks! Was that one of the 2e deity books? |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7978 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2015 : 19:54:41
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There are also baelnorn (elven liches, kinda) who sacrifice their lives to function as custodians of dead-and-buried elven things. And banshees (elven spectres, kinda) who often seem anchored to sites related to the dead (or living) bodies of their families and loved ones. And there are also special elven tomb guard kits/classes (such as Galaeron Nihmedu in the Return of the Archwizards trilogy) who guard elven tomb things very seriously. A lot of emphasis seems to be placed on the powerful magical trinkets and elven treasures found in these sites, not a lot on the actual bodies wearing them - but it seems that elves are willing to take some extraordinary measures to insure the tombs of their kind are not desecrated.
Vampire of the Mists (a Ravenloft novel) describes a Realms gold elf, Jander Sunstar, who is afflicted with vampirism. The nature of his curse is revealed over time as he grows into his powers, but an underlying theme is how his sanity unhinges from the horror of being undead, completely cut off from life and nature (aside from feeding upon it). The concept of undeath seems especially abhorrent to elvenkind, they would rather destroy themselves before being reanimated and they are ready to do the same for all other elves. Drizzt once commented that Lolth-cursed driders are hated and pitied less than undead surface elves. |
[/Ayrik] |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2399 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2015 : 13:20:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Vampire of the Mists (a Ravenloft novel) describes a Realms gold elf, Jander Sunstar, who is afflicted with vampirism. The nature of his curse is revealed over time as he grows into his powers, but an underlying theme is how his sanity unhinges from the horror of being undead
Not a lot, really. More of surly with temper.
quote:
The concept of undeath seems especially abhorrent to elvenkind, they would rather destroy themselves before being reanimated and they are ready to do the same for all other elves.
Not as much "do the same" as "completely lose it", especially if certain short stories are any indication.  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Headstones in Toril
