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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
746 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Aug 2015 : 02:24:32
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quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
If you like Mongolian lore and Genghis Khan, you will love this series.
I personally enjoyed it to death. I know a lot of people did not like it. I have a love hate relationship with the final book. Some things I loved. Some I hated.
Ok, if you'll allow me to tangent from my tangent: I just got back from 8 days in Scotland, and I'm currently obsessed with Scottish culture/history, particularly the Highland clans and the "Jacobite Rebellions" against the British oppressors. Is there an area in the Realms that is somewhat analogous to the Scottish Highlanders? Some area that contains proud clans who are constantly beset by a stronger, more imperial neighbor that tries to erase their cultural identity by banning their language, their mode of dress, their songs and musical instruments?
Sorry, back on topic. I very much enjoyed Horselords. I've mentioned earlier in this thread how some authors (Grubb, Ward) are strong game designers but their novels don't work for me. In the case of David Cook, I loved his work on the Kara-Tur and Planescape settings, really top-notch stuff. I can see why this novel might have its detractors, it's a bit of a slow burn, with much of the book introducing us to Tuigan culture. In fact, some might say it's a game supplement turned into a novel, and while that might make it dry and boring for some, I was fascinated with learning their society and customs. I think Yamun Khahan is an interesting character - I vacillate between respecting him for being an uncompromising man who goes 100% after what he wants, and despising him for being a heartless monster. He contrasts well with the sheepish Koja, who is his polar opposite in nearly every way.
Excellent start to this series, and I will eagerly dive into book 2: Dragonwall tonight or tomorrow.
The Moonshaes are probably as close to Scotland as you'll be able to get. The 2nd trilogy set in the Moonshaes is better than the first if my memory serves.
I agree with your take on Horselords. It's a very slow read but the amazing detail and the dichotomy between Koja and Yamun and the various situations that are presented is more than sufficient to carry the reader providing they are half way interested in the events of the book.
As I've said in previous posts, DEEP well developed characters and good writing can cover up a multitude of problems, including a lack of action. Deep well developed characters are something that has been distinctly lacking in the vast majority of the novels you've read so far perhaps except for Azure Bonds.
It will be great when you get to the other Elaine Cunningham and Ed Greenwood books. |
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe
USA
483 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2015 : 05:02:32
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I finished Dragonwall tonight and found it to be another strong showing in the Empires Trilogy. Whereas the first book gave us an extraordinary look into Tuigan culture, the follow-up shows us a good deal of life in Kara-Tur, albeit not in the same level of detail. Rather than day-to-day life of a common foot soldier, we see the high-stakes life of the nobles - complete with all the back-stabbing and political maneuvering one would expect. I thought the arrogance of the Shou was written well, as they seek to recreate the Celestial Bureaucracy in their own courts, but of course fall short due to typical human corruption and red-tape.
I also liked the dual story of Batu Min Ho out in the field and his family back in Tai Tung. I'm guessing some readers didn't care for the chapters concerning Wu and the children, but having been to the actual Summer Palace in Beijing, these chapters really came to life for me. I respect that the author made Wu a kung-fu expert but resisted the temptation to go overboard with it; she was a good fighter but nothing ridiculously over-the-top. I was saddened by her fate, but again I admired Denning for not pulling any punches here, particularly in not sparing the children. Gruesome? Yes, but also very believable.
I also thought Batu's decision to abandon Shou culture was well handled. From the very beginning of the story we could see his gradual disenchantment with the system, then of course there were some major events that pushed him over the edge. The only part I found to be a reach was in how he resigned his post. His outburst was a bit much. Yeah, you don't just talk to the Divine Emperor like that and walk away with your head attached to your shoulders.
Seravin, care to share what it was about this book that didn't sit well with you?
All in all I thought this was an excellent story, perhaps just a touch behind the first book. I hope to start in on Crusade by Monday. |
Edited by - VikingLegion on 30 Aug 2015 05:03:26 |
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe
USA
483 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2015 : 05:09:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Cards77
It will be great when you get to the other Elaine Cunningham and Ed Greenwood books.
Should be about another month. After I wrap up Empires I plan to read the Maztica Trilogy, and then start in on the Harpers series. I believe there's a Cunningham very early on in there, maybe book 2. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe
USA
483 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2015 : 06:23:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
This scroll had my issues with Dragonwall. I never got a satisfactory answer to my issue either.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15398&SearchTerms=dragonwall
Ok, I read that scroll and you raise some very valid points. I can't say that I have great answers to your questions, but I'll offer up my ill-conceived attempts anyway:
(1) You mentioned Yamun values honor above all else. I would contest that view and say he values conquest above all else. Yes, he has a certain code amongst his people, but (to borrow from Dragonlance) this is no Solamnic Knight that will salute an enemy on the battlefield and face him in chivalric combat. A great deal of the Tuigan battle strategy revolves around deception - false charges, followed by fake retreats, sucking an enemy into an area where their flanks get engulfed. Even the supposed brotherly code of his khans and the concept of anda is more of a tool for Yamun and his oversized ego to extend his domination over everyone else. The CEO of the last job I worked at prior to my present one was very Yamun-like in attitude. In fact, I found myself subbing in his name for Yamun from time to time as I was reading this series! He always preached things like teamwork, loyalty, and so on, but it was plain as day that increasing his "empire" was always the first, and only, priority. Yamun Khahan is a megalomaniac of the highest order, one need look only to his own self-absorbed titles. So no, I don't think he's above using a foreign spy to advance his own ambitions. He doesn't love the concept of spies, but that's probably in the context of one of his own betraying him is an unthinkable shot to his ego. Using outside spies is likely a bit distasteful for him, but not out of the question. He certainly had no problem bringing Koja into his ordu to enhance his power.
(2) Ting's motivation.... that's a tough one. She certainly has a pretty cushy life as a Shou mandarin. Why risk it? Maybe she has a wu-jen diviner in her pocket that warned her Yamun is a man of destiny and an up-and-comer out in the horse plains. On the off chance he may one day sack Shou-Lung, Ting reaches out to him first to feel him out, see if she can get in his good graces (the same wu-jen could've made the language barrier trivial). If he is as powerful as her wizard's omens have foretold, she's just trying to get on the winning side early in the game. If he turns out to be just another barbarian scum, no big deal, her involvement is kept secret and she loses nothing. By supporting both sides she simply hedged her bets so that she has friends on either side of the conflict.
Ok, but why actively help the Tuigans with stolen intel? Well, she has to give him something to prove she is an ally, otherwise why would Yamun spare her if/when his conquest is complete. Also, maybe Ting never felt Yamun could conquer Shou-Lung, but merely be a very disruptive force, allowing her a chance to eliminate some political rivals and secure more power for herself in all the chaos. Nothing is more profitable to an opportunist than wartime. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2015 : 19:03:53
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| Ugh I wrote a big long response but it's not worth hashing out. I strongly disagree (the end goal for a Mandarin should never be the barbarians win, and Yamun from book 1 would never use/trust a foriegn spy) and that's why I didn't like Dragonwall but liked Horselords. I'm perplexed that you had such an issue with the spoken line "I don't think we're in the Realms anymore." because it is similar to the Wizard of Oz, but have very little problems with major plot issues/contrivance/hand-waving explanations in Dragonwall. To each his own :) |
Edited by - Seravin on 31 Aug 2015 19:15:53 |
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe
USA
483 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2015 : 21:25:22
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Well, because I don't see it as contrivance or hand-waving. If I can summarize your two biggest hang-ups in a simplified manner, would it be fair to say: Ting wouldn't betray her country, and Yamun wouldn't utilize a foreign spy. Agree?
Ting, from the very second she walked into Dragonwall was immediately described by her mentor Ju-Hai Chou as "deadly ambitious" above all else. I just don't ascribe the same degree of patriotism to her that you seem to. She saw a chance to work both sides of a conflict, and like any good opportunist she worked both leaders to make herself appear indispensable to both sides. She was trying to "solve" the problem of security in front of the Divine Emperor, while secretly funneling information to Yamun. Her end game was unclear, my (purely) conjecture is that she thought this scum could never fully conquer Shou Lung, but they could cause enough chaos and destruction in their wake for Ting to increase her own powerbase. Maybe she planned all along to double-cross Yamun once he neared the capital, making herself out to be the grandest hero of the land for saving it. I don't know for sure, all I can do is speculate. I just don't think it's as far-fetched as you do that she isn't in lockstep with the Shou government.
As for Yamun, how do you feel about him taking in Koja? Here is a foreigner, and a scrawny, bookish, non-warrior at that, sharing kumiss with the mighty warlord. Yamun had no qualms about absorbing Koja into his ordu, using his knowledge of the region, employing him as a scribe, a historian, and an ambassador, and finally utilizing his power over the spirit world to breach the Dragonwall. I don't have any problem whatsoever imagining him entertaining Ting as a means to help secure victory over a rich and immense country with more soldiers than his own. If you think Yamun would prefer defeat with honor intact over victory by any means necessary, we are reading two vastly different characters.
Lastly, if I agreed with you that there was much contrivance/hand-waving going on, at the worst we could accuse Denning of making some writing mistakes. Hey, nobody's perfect. But with Grubb's "Wizard of Oz" (only one of at least a dozen such silly quips), it is intentional. You can't possibly add lines like that and not know that you are screwing around and being a goofball. That's what I find distasteful, it's completely immersion breaking. |
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe
USA
483 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 19:01:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
I have a love hate relationship with the final book. Some things I loved. Some I hated.
I finished Crusade two nights ago and, like you, had an up-and-down experience. I'll preface this by saying that I understand it couldn't be a 300 page fight sequence, that there had to be some build up and other events before the big combat, but....
The first 100 pages, where Azoun wrestles with "Am I doing the right thing" and we see the opposition from the Trappers Guild, was fairly boring and felt like forced drama. This made the 1st third of the book a tedious slog for me. The 2nd third didn't improve much, as the travel scenes were not highly interesting. The boat encounter with Umberlee didn't do much for me, the centaur encounter seemed like so much filler (used only to get the magic bracelet and falcon to Alusair), and Torg was maddeningly obstinate, even for a dwarf.
The final third was much better. The battle scenes were well-handled, and the dramatic swings in momentum made it exciting. I can't decide how I feel about Azoun's personal growth. The whole "don't lie or it will come back to haunt you" thing felt a little bit preachy, all commanders bend the truth at times to keep team morale up, so I'm going back and forth with that aspect of the story. Also, I haven't seen much of Vangerdahast before, but he is written as very unlikeable in this story. I'm eager to see how other authors portray his personality, though I'm not sure what other Cormyr-centric novels, if any, are in my near future, so it might be awhile on that.
All in all it was an ok novel, definitely the weakest of the three in this series, but it rallied strong enough towards the end to give Empires a strong finish. Overall it was a terrific trilogy. I've since started in on the Maztica Trilogy, with book 1: Ironhelm |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 20:27:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Some would say that allowing a fleeing foe to live is taking the high road -- after all, if he's fleeing, he's not a threat to you. A fleeing foe is no longer a combatant, and killing non-combatants is frequently frowned upon by goodly folks.
Yup, assumption that a running enemy isn't going to come back too soon is an important part. (if not always true)
quote:
Additionally, allowing an enemy to live means they have a chance to repent and come back to the Light Side.
I'm not saying that it was or wasn't the right choice. I'm just saying it's easy to see the thinking that lead to that particular choice.
Or pride - corpses don't tell anyone how cool you are.
Or desire to fight that opponent again (q.v.: Batman).
Or a habit - which could be part of Drizzt's case, he used to invent excuses for not bumping off someone.
A lot of reasons, really.
Or the author mucking around and stretching a plot until it tears.  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe
USA
483 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2015 : 04:08:06
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I finished Ironhelm a couple nights ago and was very pleased. In much the same manner I enjoyed learning the Tuigan(Mongol) culture, I'm fascinated by the Maztican(Aztec/Incan/Mayan) theme going on. I find it to be a breath of fresh air, as you almost never see Mesoamerican culture tapped for fantasy - it's almost always Western European, with occasional dashes of Middle East and Far East, because genies and ninja are cool. There was even a mention for the justification of Cordell seeking a sea passage to Kara-Tur, as the land routes through the Hordelands are currently inaccessible due to Tuigan interference - so the mention of the trilogy I just finished up was a nice bit of synergy there.
I particularly like the contrast between pluma (feather) and hishna (claw/fang/scale) magic, and their respective champions - the Eagle and Jaguar Knights. The entire region and culture seems nicely developed to me, I don't know if Niles came up with most of this stuff, or if there was already a sourcebook out for this region that he tapped. Either way, I'm loving it.
The true nature of the Ancient Ones was fairly easy to predict. Not that I'm some kind of super-sleuth, but the clues were plentiful. I'm starting to suspect Darien - the "albino surface elf" with the aversion to sunlight, as being a drow sleeper agent - she's just too mysterious and ruthless. Also she rescued Cordell years before the story started, and therefore was responsible for the formation of the Golden Legion, eventually leading to the invasion of Maztica from the "white man" - which seemed to be the Ancient One's plan all along.
At any rate, I'm really enjoying this solid start to the trilogy and will most likely begin Viperhand tomorrow. |
Edited by - VikingLegion on 08 Sep 2015 04:13:44 |
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Duneth Despana
Learned Scribe
Belgium
273 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2015 : 11:39:53
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quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion
Is there an area in the Realms that is somewhat analogous to the Scottish Highlanders?
in the quote at the beginning of book four of Elaine Cunningham's Evermeet: Island of Elves (p. 309) a certain Carreigh Macumail mentions his highland kinfolk. I don't think you'll get any closer to a scottish clone in the Realms. |
« There is no overriding « epic » in the Realms, but rather a large number of stories, adventures, and encounters going on all the time. [...]. Each creative mind adds to the base, creating, defining, and making their contribution to the rich diversity of the Realms. [...]. But Ed built the stage upon which all the plays are presented. Thanks Ed. » -FR Comic no.1
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe
USA
483 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2015 : 06:23:50
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I finished Viperhand tonight. I really liked the first book, and this one was more of the same, so another strong showing by my opinion. Ironhelm didn't seem to engender any discussion, I'm wondering if Viperhand will be the same. Were these books not well received? Do people find them boring? Or just plain not good? I have enjoyed this trilogy quite a bit up to this point, although there was a part very late in book 2 that irked me:
The big volcano blows up, demonstrating Lolth's wrath, and she punishes her wayward children by turning them into driders. That's pretty standard Lolth vengeance, so far so good. But then the acidic rain hits the followers of Zaltec and transforms them - the rank and file soldiers become orcs, the Jaguar and Eagle Knights become ogres, and the priests become trolls. Wait... what? What in the world do those savage humanoid races have to do with anything thus far in this story, or Lolth, or Zaltec, or Maztica, or... or anything? I know Niles needed to create a large opposing force to be the bad guys for the 3rd book, but this seemed completely whacky and out of left field. Lolth has never shown any kind of affinity whatsoever for orcs, ogres, or trolls. The drider form being reserved for the drow who turned from her worship is excellent. But the human Nexalans should've been turned into Chitines, with the priests among them turned into Choldriths. I'm going to face a major disconnect in book 3, in fact I'm probably going to just gloss over the combat scenes and picture the enemy humanoids as chitines instead.
That being said, I'll start in on the finale, The Feathered Dragon tomorrow. |
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe
USA
483 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2015 : 05:42:55
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Ok, I had a misunderstanding in the previous post. From the way it was written I thought that Lolth had stolen the energies from the Darkfyre and used that to transform the Cult of the Viperhand. True, she did turn her own rebellious drow into driders, but it was actually Zaltec that turned his followers into orcs, ogres, and trolls. At first I thought this made more sense, but on second review, it actually makes *less*. While not having an affinity for those races, at least Lolth has come into contact with them. They have never appeared anywhere on Maztica, Zaltec would have no reason whatsoever for choosing those savage humanoids as the new forms of his cultists.
I had to do some serious hand-waving to get through The Feathered Dragon. Aside from that grievance, this book was just ok - not nearly as good as the first two. Another huge problem came at the very end, when Qotal - who had been worshipped as a peaceful, benevolent deity suddenly turned into a major.... well I won't type it because I'm not sure what the limits on language are here at Candlekeep. It was a perplexing change that appeared completely out of left field.
So while the finale of this trilogy was a disappointment, I still liked the series overall based on the strength of the first book and most of the second. Apparently I'm alone in that assessment or just not a lot of folks have read the Maztica books. At any rate, tonight I started in on the Harpers series, which I will read intermittently between other series. Sometimes it's nice to get away from the trilogies and just read a self-contained story in one book. To that end, I have begun The Parched Sea. |
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe
USA
483 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2015 : 05:53:59
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I finished The Parched Sea tonight. This is one of those stories that moves along well, is fairly satisfying, but if you ask me about it a year from now I'll only remember the characters of Lander and Ruha. That's not a knock against the book or Denning, there's just nothing amazingly good or glaringly bad about this novel. It's just a story that effectively tells a tale without a whole lot of frills or extras. Being that I knew very little about this region (other than in the days of Netheril) this was a good book to give me some insight into Anauroch and the Bedine people.
The last ~10 pages felt very rushed, as though the author let the page count get a little bit away from him, and then realized he only had a small amount of time to wrap it all up. Other than that, no significant complaints. It was a good start to the Harpers series, one which I will continue on with for the meantime. Next up is book 2: Elfshadow by Elaine Cunningham - who I have heard nothing but tremendous praise for, so I'm fighting the tendency to get over-hyped for this book. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2015 : 16:47:41
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Parched Sea I thought was a good book, told a fine story and explored a new part of the Realms for me with a new culture. It felt like Horselords to me in some ways with the real world culture adapted to the Realms (nomadic Bedine desert tribes versus nomadic Mongolian type steppes tribes). Unfortunately, the next Ruha book The Veiled Dragon was...one of the worst books in the Harper series if not the Forgotten Realms series. The last chapter of The Parched Sea was definitely rushed, I agree. I wish it ended with Ruha and Lander in Sembia and the next book with Ruha had them together fighting the Sembian Cult of the Dragon cells. Sigh.
Hope you like Elfshadow. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2015 : 17:38:34
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| I didn't dislike The Veiled Dragon when I last read it, but that's been a very long time... What bugs me more, though, is the way Denning just keeps reusing the same characters -- particular Malik -- over and over and over again. I was very bothered by his appearance in Denning's Sundering book; it felt like he was included simply for the sake of including him. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe
USA
483 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2015 : 05:02:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
Parched Sea I thought was a good book, told a fine story and explored a new part of the Realms for me with a new culture. It felt like Horselords to me in some ways with the real world culture adapted to the Realms (nomadic Bedine desert tribes versus nomadic Mongolian type steppes tribes). Unfortunately, the next Ruha book The Veiled Dragon was...one of the worst books in the Harper series if not the Forgotten Realms series. The last chapter of The Parched Sea was definitely rushed, I agree. I wish it ended with Ruha and Lander in Sembia and the next book with Ruha had them together fighting the Sembian Cult of the Dragon cells. Sigh.
Hope you like Elfshadow.
Interesting, I had thought this was a "one-and-done" story, I didn't realize I'd be seeing more of Ruha later down the road. Though based on your review I don't have a whole lot to look forward to. I see that it is book 12 in the Harpers series, so I won't get to that for a very long time, as I will probably just read these a few at a time, interspersed with other series. Thanks for the tip though. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2015 : 05:25:01
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| Ruha also shows up in Crucible: The Trial of Cyric the Mad, and in the Return of the Archwizards trilogy. And Malik is in those, too. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe
USA
483 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2015 : 18:54:24
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I finished Elfshadow last night. This was a very good book. I wanted it to be a great one, but a few small glitches kept it from hitting that lofty mark. I see this is her first foray into the Realms, and first novel overall. She had a few kinks to work out, and it showed. Still, I can already see why Elaine Cunningham is so well liked and respected, and I look forward to seeing more of her work.
I'm surprised at how much I enjoy the character of Danilo Thann. Normally I have a very short leash for silliness or buffoonery (see any post I've made regarding Grubb/Novak books) but because I know Dan is a shrewd, perceptive, intelligent person underneath the foolishness, it makes the act immensely fun. I'm not sure what to make of Elaith Craulnober yet, but my guess is I'll be seeing a whole lot more of him in books to come.
Tomorrow I will start the next in the series: Red Magic. |
Edited by - VikingLegion on 08 Oct 2015 16:55:49 |
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe
USA
483 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2015 : 17:11:01
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Last night I finished Red Magic. This is the lone entry in the Forgotten Realms by Jean Rabe, but I've read a bunch of her Dragonlance work not all that long ago.
I'm convinced she has a secondary hobby in the fashion industry, because every character she writes - regardless of race, class, or gender - is absolutely obsessed with clothing. The first thing any of her characters do upon reaching a new town or city is go clothes shopping. I noticed this initially in her Dragons of a New Age trilogy, then again in the Dhamon Saga. And now, in Red Magic we have a centaur and two humans (one being a druid that cares nothing for civilization or its conventions) immediately hitting the tailor as soon as they arrive in Amruthar. I chuckled a bit and said "Wow, that is so Rabey..." Every book she writes could be trimmed by about 30 pages if she didn't go into exhaustive detail over the character's outfits - color schemes, fabric and texture descriptions....
Other than that, this was a fairly average story, much like Parched Sea. To her credit, she did make me feel a strong revulsion for Maligor, the BBEG. I mentioned way back in the original post that wildlife and environmental conservation resonates deeply with me, and to see how this red wizard so callously tortures the trapped animals for his own sick, twisted ends (mainly in the creation of his darkenbeasts), and the deplorable conditions he kept them in, got me invested in the story. So his eventual defeat, while fairly predictable, was still quite satisfying.
I had a big problem with Galvin wildshaping himself into a darkenbeast to fit in with the flock. This is a druid turning himself into an utter abomination/corruption of nature. Putting game mechanics aside, even if he could get over his revulsion over such a vile form, I don't think he could physically make the transformation.
Well that finishes everything up to 1991 except for Canticle, but I really don't want to start a quintet that will carry all the way into 1994 just now. So instead I'll continue to pick around it, continuing with the Harpers series. Tonight I'll start The Night Parade. |
Edited by - VikingLegion on 08 Oct 2015 17:14:12 |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2015 : 18:46:50
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| Night Parade was a tough read for me, it feels the least "Realms" like of the Harper series; it's very HP Lovecraft to me. Interested to hear your thoughts. I liked Red Magic mostly because Thay under the Zulkirs representing all the schools of magic was such a cool idea (MUCH MUCH MUCH BETTER THAN LICH-KING THAY! ugh don't get me started on that). I liked seeing how Thay manipulated weather to create orange groves and fertile lands, used zombies as slave labour, and how centaurs were part of daily life there. I would have liked to see more of the Simbul's Aglarond in the novel though. |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2015 : 19:44:28
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quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion
I finished Elfshadow last night. This was a very good book. I wanted it to be a great one, but a few small glitches kept it from hitting that lofty mark. I see this is her first foray into the Realms, and first novel overall. She had a few kinks to work out, and it showed. Still, I can already see why Elaine Cunningham is so well liked and respected, and I look forward to seeing more of her work.
I'm surprised at how much I enjoy the character of Danilo Thann. Normally I have a very short leash for silliness or buffoonery (see any post I've made regarding Grubb/Novak books) but because I know Dan is a shrewd, perceptive, intelligent person underneath the foolishness, it makes the act immensely fun. I'm not sure what to make of Elaith Craulnober yet, but my guess is I'll be seeing a whole lot more of him in books to come.
Tomorrow I will start the next in the series: Red Magic.
I once Likened Danilo Thann to Richard Castle, while Arilyn comes off as Kate Beckett lol.
Elaith Craulnober is my favorite realms character.
That book to me was a quintessential realms book. Usage of landmarks and NPC's as secondary characters to help move the story and the realms along was perfect.
Even minor characters like Jannaxil Serpentil were featured in the old 2.e Waterdeep guides. But the days of people reading DnD sourcebooks by the ton and being happy seeing NPC's in novels they have read about in Sourcebooks is a thing of the past I am afraid :(
Since late 90's, I find you only get character write up's after they have already been introduced in novels now instead of vice versa |
Edited by - Firestorm on 08 Oct 2015 19:50:06 |
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Hyperion
Acolyte
38 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2015 : 12:05:00
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Hi VikingLegion and all. I'm doing almost the same thing you're doing, reading or re-reading all the FR novels in chronological order. Me too had read several books in the past but I'm now starting over.
I've begun reading for the first time the Moonshae trilogy too and liked it mostly for the reason you said, yet I found it a bit lacking in character developments. Several characters should have received more space and description, like Kevren, Tavish, Fiona, Alexei. I liked Newt a lot but often the Moonshae in the books feel too much like a draft, as they were at the time. I plan to start another thread confronting the books with the FR supplement, which seems to have more details.
Next, I've read for the first time Azure Bond and the other two books of the trilogy. I liked Alias, the Saurials and Olive very much and I'd love to read more books on them, but I think only Finder appears in subsequent books (which I haven't read yet). I like Grubb's style and I even liked Giogi, even if the second book is probably the weaker of the trilogy.
Next, I've read (for the second time) Shandril's saga. Ed Greenwood wrote in the past that the books were heavily butchered by editors and the third one did not even had the ending he wanted, and I think that can be seen. In general however, while I like Ed Greenwood's books, I feel that often his plots lack a planned development and seem too much like a long streak of D&D fights. The major weakness of the plot however, as others have pointed out, is that there is no apparent reason why Elminster did not teleport Shandril and Narm to Silverymoon, sparing them the dangerous journey.
The trilogy however has a lot of gems, like the rage of Manshoon for the death of the Shadowsil, the story of Shandril's parents, Fzoul and much more. I think it would make a great FR movie, with the right script.
Now I'm reading, almost finished, the Avatar trilogy. I'll write my considerations in another post.
I'll tackle R.A Salvatore first six books after that. |
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Hyperion
Acolyte
38 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2015 : 09:12:11
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Finished the Avatar trilogy yesterday.
I liked all the three books. I've already read them 25 years ago and I was now surprised on how much I remembered them well.
I'm not fully convinced by Cyric's story arc. I think his irritation and then hatred toward his companion is well grounded. Kelemvor, Midnight and Adon are often insufferable hypocrites. Midnight and Adon marvelling that Cyric had to shed blood to free them? Come on, he should have left you to the hangman! Yet if I can understand some acts of cruelty by Cyric, as toward Yarbro in Tantras, I think it was a bit out of character for him to go fully sadistic, as in the torture and murder of halfling prisoners. I think his journey to the Dark Side could have been done a little better. Yet the trilogy has the best Realms characters among the books I've read so far, undoubtedly.
Now I'm reading Homeland and that's another favorite Realms book which I read many years ago. It's really good, I think it touches an universal literary topic, coming of age in a highly competitive society that forces you to adapt to it and is merciless with your shortcomings. I guess that applies almost just as well to Menzoberranzan as to our modern Western society, and that's the reason why the book is so interesting, IMO.
While I've read almost all the others Salvatore books too, I think he never again reaches the quality level of this book... |
Edited by - Hyperion on 13 Oct 2015 09:14:33 |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
746 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2015 : 03:07:41
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quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion
I finished Elfshadow last night. This was a very good book. She had a few kinks to work out, and it showed.
Such as?? |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2015 : 04:02:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Hyperion
Finished the Avatar trilogy yesterday.
I Yet the trilogy has the best Realms characters among the books I've read so far, undoubtedly.
WOW, again, to each their own, but I thought the 4 main characters in the Avatar trilogy were pretty awful, mostly because of the numerous authors who created the books. I find the best characters are owned by one author who "gets" them. And Adon, Midnight, Cyric, and Kelemvor never felt very real or fleshed out to me.
Especially compared to characters like Jarlaxle, Artemis, Alias, Giogi, Arilyn, Khelben (I could go on, basically I find a lot of characters better written than the Avatar trilogy "heroes", undoubtedly).
But I love hearing about your experiences with re-reading the books regardless! |
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe
USA
483 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2015 : 04:21:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
Night Parade was a tough read for me, it feels the least "Realms" like of the Harper series; it's very HP Lovecraft to me. Interested to hear your thoughts. I liked Red Magic mostly because Thay under the Zulkirs representing all the schools of magic was such a cool idea (MUCH MUCH MUCH BETTER THAN LICH-KING THAY! ugh don't get me started on that). I liked seeing how Thay manipulated weather to create orange groves and fertile lands, used zombies as slave labour, and how centaurs were part of daily life there. I would have liked to see more of the Simbul's Aglarond in the novel though.
Yeah, I really liked the school specialist magocracy, it made for a unique country with great originality and tons of political intrigue as each school believes itself to be the strongest. You raise an interesting point about zombie slave labor. Now, I wouldn't want a decomposing man to harvest my produce, but I could certainly see utilizing them as miners - a job with a terribly high mortality rate, exhausting work conditions, exposure to bad air - things a zombie wouldn't be even remotely affected by. I don't know anything about "Lich King Thay", as my FR knowledge only took me up to the mid/late 1990s, but I can only surmise the obvious and that Szass Tam must have eventually succeeded in supplanting his fellow zulkirs. I'll let you know how I feel about that once I've crossed that bridge, but I suspect I'll feel the same way you do, in that a "necropolis" theme has been done before, and Thay has become less special.
I've been on the graveyard shift this week, which means LOTS of time to read whiling away the hours, and have finished two books, the first of which is The Night Parade. It's funny Seravin, I'm not sure we'll ever see eye-to-eye on anything :) As you mentioned, this book had a Lovecraftian vibe to it. Maybe it's the HPL superfan in me talking, or perhaps it's just that we're in October when my mind switches into creepy/horror mode, but I thought this book was TERRIFIC. Definitely the best of the Harpers series thus far (only Elfshadow even comes close) and lands in my top ten overall (covering only 1987-1991 at this time).
I thought it curious when you said it "feels the least Realms" to you, and wouldn't mind hearing you expound on that statement. Is it because of the horror theme in general? Or specifically the concept of the Night Parade? I didn't have a whole lot of the FR sourcebooks, so I don't know if these creatures have any kind of established canon, or if Ciencin went a bit off the reservation and just freelanced this story. In that vein, I've often wondered just how much personal freedom any FR author had back in those days. Was there strong communication between the various writers, or did they more or less have free reign to set up shop in their own little corners and do their thing with little editorial oversight? Back to it being "Realms/Non-Realms", well I guess maybe I don't have a strong notion of what that is supposed to mean. As an open sandbox type of shared world, I see it as a massive patchwork quilt of various styles and sensibilities - from swashbuckling to grimdark, serious to campy, and various levels of low/high magic fantasy dependent on the author and region being written about.
Anyway, to somewhat get back on track, I very much enjoyed this novel. As a lover of horror, this book gave me a bit of a Hellraiser feel, I pictured the various forms of the Night Parade members to be something like the Cenobites. But then there was also the aspect of them coming to town like some demonic gypsy carnival, playing their music, enchanting the public - this gave me a bit of a "Something Wicked This Way Comes" feel. Lastly, this book had some pretty seriously overt sexuality to it, which surprised me in that many of the TSR/WotC books of this age were teen targeted, and while flirting with sexual themes, rarely crossed a certain line. Night Parade gleefully went right over this limitation several times, which made me enjoy it even more for pushing the boundaries.
Again, maybe it's just because Halloween is right around the corner, but this book pushed all the right buttons for me. Sure, maybe it's a less conventional Realms book, but that didn't hinder my enjoyment of it one bit. |
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe
USA
483 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2015 : 04:56:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Cards77
quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion
I finished Elfshadow last night. This was a very good book. She had a few kinks to work out, and it showed.
Such as??
DISCLAIMER: these are minor nitpicks at most, and I found the story to be very good overall, so don't read too much into that statement. I was perusing Cunningham's personal site a bit before writing that, mainly to see how many Realms novels she has written, and I ran across an interesting blurb where she talks about Elfshadow being her first book, and that she made "several mistakes" and learned from them. While she didn't go into specifics of those mistakes, I derived my own meaning from it - which is probably WAY wrong, but here goes:
The prevalence of D&D mechanics. Some stories are written where you can almost hear a d20 rattling around in the background. A specific example is her repeatedly saying how Arilyn "detected the secret door due to her inherent powers as an Elf." Ouch, it's like she lifted that directly out of a Players Handbook and pasted into her story. She uses this line (or some minor variant of it) several times in the story.
I've never viewed an Elf's bonus to find secret doors as some kind of magical alarm system or a glowing neon sign saying "SECRET DOOR IS HERE -->" blinking above the passage, but rather chalked it up to their superior senses subconsciously alerting them when something seems amiss - perhaps their excellent hearing or tactile sense can pick up on minor variations in air flow, or their incredible eyesight detects a tiny hint of light leaking through a crack. I know it's two ways of essentially conveying the same information to the reader, but one feels much more polished to me. Consider the following two sentences:
"Bruenor was wounded by the poison-coated arrow, but since he's a Dwarf with a strong constitution and a racial resistance to such attacks, was able to continue fighting."
"Bruenor was wounded by the poison-coated arrow, but being as tough and rugged as the stone his people mine from the ground, refused to give in to the pain."
The first example sounds like someone who just read a text or manual and is trying to "fit in" with the world they are writing in, whereas the second clearly is paying homage to those rules and mechanics, but in a more flavorful way that doesn't evoke imagery of 5 nerds (and I use that term with only the most glowing of endearments) sitting around a table with Doritos and Mountain Dew. I'm hoping that in subsequent novels Elaine becomes more comfortable with the underlying game and world, and these things fade away. Again I'll reiterate it's a minor gripe on my part, certainly not enough to derail a fine story, but prevalent enough for me to take notice. Yes, I know I'm a PITA and tend to focus on silly things. Sorry...
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Edited by - VikingLegion on 15 Oct 2015 05:02:25 |
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe
USA
483 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2015 : 05:47:07
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Ok, I also finished The Ring of Winter last night. It started off a little strange - something like a mix of Indiana Jones and League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. It had a very obvious and concerted "British" vibe to it, especially in the character of Pontifax and several others in the Society of Stalwart Adventurers. I thought it was going to get a little too goofy, but it ended up turning much more serious (and deadly) once they reached Chult. I would've liked to have seen the captain of the Narwhal explained a bit more. She appeared as a pretty, somewhat demure young woman, but then morphed into this scaly, demonic, raging.... thing when angered. She was killed during the dragon turtle attack before I could find out what she actually was.
The talking wombats, complete with cockney accents, were particularly painful to read, and I tried my hardest to ignore them completely. The pretty (relatively speaking) goblin princess M'bobo with the gorgeous flowing blonde locks was an odd stylistic choice as well. She had some parallels to the previously mentioned Captain Bawr. I guess Lowder really likes female leaders that look small, dainty, and "cute" but hide sadistic, psycho killer personalities underneath their good looks, as he used essentially the same character twice. I'm not sure what to make of that, but I'm sure a psychologist would have a field day with it.
I really liked the "paladins of Ubtao", particularly the zombie lord, though his part could've used some expanding on. It felt like he was inserted last minute and didn't get enough screen time to really develop. Also, passing Ubtao's test, while clever, was over in a heartbeat. There was a TON of subtle (and not so subtle) tie-ins to other novels, characters, and regions of the Realms (particularly the Horselords Trilogy), as though the author felt the need to "name drop" as much as possible to link this story to other goings-on in the Realms - even mentioning how Artus once rented an apartment from a fletcher named Razor John, and so forth.
All things considered it was a decent story, on par with The Parched Sea and similar novels of that quality. I was very surprised to see Artus Cimber retain the titular Ring of Winter though. I figured such a massively overpowered artifact would necessitate him painfully having to give it up or risk being seduced. Yet he mentions at the end how he wants to use it for the forces of good, leading me to believe I may see more of this character in future stories.
I've since started in on Pools of Darkness. |
Edited by - VikingLegion on 15 Oct 2015 05:50:25 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
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Once More Unto the Breach!! *SPOILERS*
