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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Jul 2015 : 22:49:50
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1) Moander was able to fly because of the methane gas (one of the "lift gasses"), which resulted from all of the decaying plant matter he had. His goal shifted from an assault on Myth Drannor to an escape with Alias to his worshippers in Westgate..so he flew. As he used more power his ability to communicate with the avatar dropped, and I think it's referenced a few times that the power use caused him to sound stupid and changed from when he first interacted with Alias and co.
2) I never noticed any issue with the dialogue at all...at least not compared to other Realms books. Please never read "Once Around the Realms", if Azure Bonds offends you you'll probably burn thatbook.
Well to each his own, I think Azure Bonds is fantastic and really captures those magical early days of the Forgotten Realms. Hopefully Wyvern's Spur's dialogue is less goofy for you. :) |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
746 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2015 : 21:33:04
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| Don't read Tymora's Luck then. You'll rip out your eyes. |
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe
USA
483 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2015 : 07:51:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I believe this is the first time I've seen complaints about those books. For me, the writing duo of Jeff Grubb and Kate Novak cannot be recommended highly enough; they and Elaine Cunningham are the only ones I consistently recommend to one and all.
It's just a taste thing. If I want goofy, silly fantasy I'll go read Terry Pratchett's Discworld series, or go even farther back to Piers Anthony's Xanth novels. I highly enjoyed both those series, because I go in expecting equal parts humor and fantasy. I guess I have a different expectation for Realms books. I'm not saying it has to be all grimdark all the time, but... well I'll share a line I found particularly annoying - I'm sure I literally groaned out loud when I read it. It is by no means the worst line, it simply happens late in the story so it was freshest in my mind. Too, it wasn't just this bit alone. See, Grubb's writing for me is kind of like a cloud of gnats. Each individual bug is harmless and inconsequential, but the sum total of the swarm has a cumulative effect that eventually wears me down. Anyway, here it is (this occurs when Alias and her party are teleported to the Citadel of the White Exile bordering the Positive Material Plane):
"Olive, I don't think we're in the Realms anymore." - an obvious reference to the Wizard of Oz if you just substitute in the words Toto and Kansas. You know Grubb was clapping in delight as he typed out that masterpiece of witticism. I'm guessing right now you're rolling your eyes and thinking I'm making too much of a deal over one harmless line, and you'd be right. But like I said before this is just one of many such instances that crop up throughout all of his works.
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
1) Moander was able to fly because of the methane gas (one of the "lift gasses"), which resulted from all of the decaying plant matter he had. His goal shifted from an assault on Myth Drannor to an escape with Alias to his worshippers in Westgate..so he flew. As he used more power his ability to communicate with the avatar dropped, and I think it's referenced a few times that the power use caused him to sound stupid and changed from when he first interacted with Alias and co.
2) I never noticed any issue with the dialogue at all...at least not compared to other Realms books. Please never read "Once Around the Realms", if Azure Bonds offends you you'll probably burn thatbook.
Well to each his own, I think Azure Bonds is fantastic and really captures those magical early days of the Forgotten Realms. Hopefully Wyvern's Spur's dialogue is less goofy for you. :)
I'm an organic chemist by trade so I assure you I knew where he was going with the methane angle. In fact I applauded when Mistandaprlfelxklers used her fiery breath on the Abomination to disastrous results. So it wasn't the science behind the flight so much as the imagery of this enormous, cumbersome, not-in-the-least-bit-aerodynamic-or-flightworthy mass of sludge going from a slow but inexorable march across land to suddenly lifting off and hurtling across the sky like I saw Godzilla once do (by flying backwards, using his flame breath as propulsion.)
As for the dialogue, good point about the lessened speech capabilities, but I'm talking about before that occurs. Much like the Oz example above, this is neither the only, or best, example. At one point, while explaining his Master Plan Moander starts a paragraph off with the phrase "Well, you know..." which to me sounds more like the sort of loose, informal phrasing you'd use to describe a change to your fantasy football lineup to co-workers around the water cooler. It's this jocular, blithe, casual way of speaking that doesn't work for me when writing the speech of a god. This isn't Bob the Tanner, this is an Elder Primordial Being of Chaos, Corruption, and Decay whose every utterance should send a Lovecraftian tremor of terror into the minds and hearts of any that hear it, not some hayseed bumpkin saying "Yeah, so uh, what I'm gonna do is this, ok..."
However, being in the obvious and vast minority here, I am willing to concede my pre-existing bias against Grubb's novels may be coloring any further dialogue I read from him. Moving on.
It's funny you mentioned Once Around the Realms. I remember a friend of mine reading that way back in the mid 90s and telling me just how ludicrous it was. I didn't read it back then, but plan on getting to it in this complete read-through, but being fully armed and aware and expecting absurdity, I should be able to stomach it. I might even get a good laugh from it.
quote:
Originally posted by Cards77
Don't read Tymora's Luck then. You'll rip out your eyes.
Duly noted. And here I was hoping after Song of the Saurials I'd be done with both these characters and this writing duo. Oh, speaking of which, I finished The Wyvern's Spur last night:
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Edited by - VikingLegion on 20 Jul 2015 07:57:35 |
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe
USA
483 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2015 : 08:19:29
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I went in to Wyvern's Spur with ultra-low expectations. I think it's well established by now that I'm not looking for silliness in Realms books, and here we have a 313 page book centered around Giogioni Wyvernspur, perhaps the most dopey of the Novak/Grubb characters. I was absolutely positive there would be a scene where Giogi leans up against a bookcase and accidentally nudges the statue that opens up the secret door. Or maybe he would slip on a banana peel and two attackers would swing high over his falling form, clobbering each other simultaneously.
But while there was plenty of obligatory Wyvernspur family foolishness, this book did manage to tell a decent story. Even though she was trapped in the form of a donkey for much of the story, I liked Olive's development. She sort of took on this inspector role and had some excellently glib improv moments that were entertaining. Giogi was every bit the useless fop I'd expected him to be, but did start to man up towards the end, which I think was the point of the story, his coming of age.
But isn't his budding romance with Cat a bit... gross in so far that Cat, Jade, Alias, et al are sort of created from the, I don't want to say DNA, but essence of Finder Wyvernspur. If they are considered Wyvernspurs to the point of being able to pass the crypt guardian's scrutiny, does that not make the Cat/Giogi relationship a bit on the Lannister side? I understand in medieval settings it was not uncommon to marry within your own family, I guess I just think it's a little weird.
Tomorrow night I'll start in on the finale, Song of the Saurials. |
Edited by - VikingLegion on 20 Jul 2015 08:20:07 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2015 : 11:10:04
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quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion
But isn't his budding romance with Cat a bit... gross in so far that Cat, Jade, Alias, et al are sort of created from the, I don't want to say DNA, but essence of Finder Wyvernspur. If they are considered Wyvernspurs to the point of being able to pass the crypt guardian's scrutiny, does that not make the Cat/Giogi relationship a bit on the Lannister side? I understand in medieval settings it was not uncommon to marry within your own family, I guess I just think it's a little weird.
Keep in mind, Finder was one of Giogi's ancestors -- we're talking so many generations back that they were practically unrelated. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2015 : 21:35:32
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I think the pseudo-DNA of Alias comes from Cassandra, in so much that she was a physical copy of a young Cassandra, not a clone of Finder or a Wyvernspur like Flattery was.
Finder was Alias's "father" in so much as he helped create her and gave her a personality/memories. Cat was married to Flattery, who was a Finder clone (of sorts, like Alias is of Cassandra), and how she got in the crypt to me--through marriage not blood. Also - It was Phalse who gave the Alias-sisters their backstories and personalities, not Finder, so Cat would be less "icky" in this sense than Alias marrying/sleeping with Giogi. |
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe
USA
483 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2015 : 00:09:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
I think the pseudo-DNA of Alias comes from Cassandra, in so much that she was a physical copy of a young Cassandra, not a clone of Finder or a Wyvernspur like Flattery was.
Finder was Alias's "father" in so much as he helped create her and gave her a personality/memories. Cat was married to Flattery, who was a Finder clone (of sorts, like Alias is of Cassandra), and how she got in the crypt to me--through marriage not blood. Also - It was Phalse who gave the Alias-sisters their backstories and personalities, not Finder, so Cat would be less "icky" in this sense than Alias marrying/sleeping with Giogi.
Great points.
I finished Song of the Saurials the other night, and enjoyed it far more than I thought I would. I don't have much specific to point out with this book, for good or ill, it was just a solid read throughout. I particularly liked Finder, despite him being a hopelessly vain, selfish narcissist. I'm intrigued by the end, where it mentioned he managed to "absorb much of Moander's power" - obviously setting him up to be a bigger player in the Realms scene down the road.
On to the Avatars trilogy. I started Shadowdale last night and am tearing through it. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2015 : 03:16:46
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quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
I think the pseudo-DNA of Alias comes from Cassandra, in so much that she was a physical copy of a young Cassandra, not a clone of Finder or a Wyvernspur like Flattery was.
Finder was Alias's "father" in so much as he helped create her and gave her a personality/memories. Cat was married to Flattery, who was a Finder clone (of sorts, like Alias is of Cassandra), and how she got in the crypt to me--through marriage not blood. Also - It was Phalse who gave the Alias-sisters their backstories and personalities, not Finder, so Cat would be less "icky" in this sense than Alias marrying/sleeping with Giogi.
Great points.
I finished Song of the Saurials the other night, and enjoyed it far more than I thought I would. I don't have much specific to point out with this book, for good or ill, it was just a solid read throughout. I particularly liked Finder, despite him being a hopelessly vain, selfish narcissist. I'm intrigued by the end, where it mentioned he managed to "absorb much of Moander's power" - obviously setting him up to be a bigger player in the Realms scene down the road.
Finder appears in a divine role in the books Finder's Bane and Tymora's Luck, also by Kate Novak and Jeff Grubb. Those are books 1 and 3 of the Lost Gods trilogy; the 2nd book is a Dragonlance book and doesn't really do anything for the trilogy other than intro a single character. |
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe
USA
483 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2015 : 21:14:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Finder appears in a divine role in the books Finder's Bane and Tymora's Luck, also by Kate Novak and Jeff Grubb. Those are books 1 and 3 of the Lost Gods trilogy; the 2nd book is a Dragonlance book and doesn't really do anything for the trilogy other than intro a single character.
Careful with the spoilers please. While nearly all of these early books are re-reads for me, I did stop reading Realms books sometime in the mid 90s, so while this stuff is ancient history for you guys, it will be fresh material for me. Not a big deal, since I figured he was poised to become some divine or at least semi-divine being, just something to please keep in mind for purposes of this thread.
As for a Lost Gods series and Fistandantilus Reborn, I read that book in my complete Dragonlance read-through, and I never would've guessed it was part of any kind of cross-setting series. It was branded as a Lost Legends book in that world, as Fisty is a powerful icon of that world, but isn't divine in any respect. Sure he's one of the greatest mages in the history of Krynn, but he's always been an angry spirit trying to find a host, never a figure that has had any kind of worshipers. I'm a fan of Doug Niles, but man that book was boring and a massive disappointment.
Anyway, I finished Shadowdale last night. While not a great book (I could, but won't, point out several nitpicks) it was an enjoyable read, as it evokes a powerful sense of nostalgia for me. See, this was my entry point into the Realms from a tabletop gaming perspective. Sure I had already read the Moonshae stuff and several of the dark elf books before the Avatar series, so I was well-introduced to the Realms from a novel standpoint. But the events of the Time of Troubles was when I got my first gaming group together to run through this world. I recall how badly a friend of mine wanted to play a Wild Mage, and the often disastrous results that occurred when he had to roll on the "wild surge" table for a misfired spell.
Another poster mentioned how the Novak/Grubb duo "captured that magical feel of the early Realms." I'd like to steal that line and apply it instead to this series.
I'll continue tonight with book 2: Tantras |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2015 : 21:46:34
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Hahaha fair enough about the Avatar trilogy capturing those early days of the Realms; I prefer pre-TOT setting of the 1350s, since my introduction to the setting was in that era. Especially the Dales and Moonsea area.
My re-read of Shadowdale I liked it less than I thought, I was really perplexed at how awful Storm was portrayed (although maybe that's in Tantras). She was totally out of character; and it ruined that part of the book for me. You should read Shadow of the Avatar trilogy, it is neat to see what is going on with Elminster during the events of "Shadowdale". I enjoyed that trilogy, particularly the 3rd book. |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
746 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2015 : 03:39:48
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| Oh my those crossover novels were just horrible. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2015 : 03:59:50
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quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Finder appears in a divine role in the books Finder's Bane and Tymora's Luck, also by Kate Novak and Jeff Grubb. Those are books 1 and 3 of the Lost Gods trilogy; the 2nd book is a Dragonlance book and doesn't really do anything for the trilogy other than intro a single character.
Careful with the spoilers please. While nearly all of these early books are re-reads for me, I did stop reading Realms books sometime in the mid 90s, so while this stuff is ancient history for you guys, it will be fresh material for me. Not a big deal, since I figured he was poised to become some divine or at least semi-divine being, just something to please keep in mind for purposes of this thread.
It's not a spoiler. He was a deity at the end of Song of the Saurials. That's why he was looking for a place for his own planar realm.
quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion
As for a Lost Gods series and Fistandantilus Reborn, I read that book in my complete Dragonlance read-through, and I never would've guessed it was part of any kind of cross-setting series. It was branded as a Lost Legends book in that world, as Fisty is a powerful icon of that world, but isn't divine in any respect. Sure he's one of the greatest mages in the history of Krynn, but he's always been an angry spirit trying to find a host, never a figure that has had any kind of worshipers. I'm a fan of Doug Niles, but man that book was boring and a massive disappointment.
I really disliked it, myself. All it really contributes to the trilogy is the character Emilo Haversack, who appears in Tymora's Luck. There's a reference or two -- on his part -- to his adventures in the previous book, but it's utterly unnecessary to be familiar with book 2 when reading book 3. |
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe
USA
483 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2015 : 14:17:03
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I finished Tantras over the weekend. I felt it was a slight step down from Shadowdale, either that or my warm nostalgia glow has now faded. Still, there were several things to like. I thought the huge rock 'em, sock 'em battle between 50 foot tall Bane Statue and Lion-Head Torm was handled fairly well, for a situation that could've devolved quickly but instead read ok.
I also liked Cyric's transformation from a snarky, somewhat dark but still decent fellow, into a soulless, black-hearted villain was plausible, all things considered. Not an easy task to take on, changing him so thoroughly over only a 1-2 book period, but the author(s) pulled it off in a pretty believable manner, so good job on that.
The one thing that really irked me was Myrkul's ritual that instantly killed every assassin in Faerun, to steal their souls and power up Bane. It's one thing for Torm to absorb the souls of his willing followers, but how can Myrkul simply cast a spell and rip away every single follower of a different god - Bhaal? That would be like Loviatar saying "You know what, I don't like dancing and joy and whatnot, so I'm going to cast this spell here and instantly slaughter every dancer on the continent to piss off Lliira." If any god (not even a full god, just a lowly avatar) can have this kind of power over another god's clergy, how is there any protection? And why aren't they doing this all the time to slaughter each other's flocks? Like I said, it's one thing to ask your own devoted followers to lay down their lives for you, but how can a god of one sphere/domain/portfolio have that kind of providence over worshipers who have never let him/her in on any level?
I know it had to happen for plot reasons, but I thought this was a terribly ill-conceived idea. Aside from that it was a smooth and easy read, and I've already started in on the finale: Waterdeep |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2015 : 13:24:56
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quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion
The one thing that really irked me was Myrkul's ritual that instantly killed every assassin in Faerun, to steal their souls and power up Bane. It's one thing for Torm to absorb the souls of his willing followers, but how can Myrkul simply cast a spell and rip away every single follower of a different god - Bhaal? That would be like Loviatar saying "You know what, I don't like dancing and joy and whatnot, so I'm going to cast this spell here and instantly slaughter every dancer on the continent to piss off Lliira." If any god (not even a full god, just a lowly avatar) can have this kind of power over another god's clergy, how is there any protection? And why aren't they doing this all the time to slaughter each other's flocks? Like I said, it's one thing to ask your own devoted followers to lay down their lives for you, but how can a god of one sphere/domain/portfolio have that kind of providence over worshipers who have never let him/her in on any level?
I know it had to happen for plot reasons, but I thought this was a terribly ill-conceived idea. Aside from that it was a smooth and easy read, and I've already started in on the finale: Waterdeep
Someone had to "think of the children!"...assassins, along with demons and devils, were too dark for 2nd Edition D&D and were taken out of the game rules. This was the "In-Realms" way of removing them from the world. Except for Artemis Entreri who wore super thick plot armour and was suddenly a fighter/thief multi-class character who took money for killing people. Mmhmm.
Oh well, no more stupid than the 4E Spellplague changes. |
Edited by - Seravin on 06 Aug 2015 13:27:15 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2015 : 15:13:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion
The one thing that really irked me was Myrkul's ritual that instantly killed every assassin in Faerun, to steal their souls and power up Bane. It's one thing for Torm to absorb the souls of his willing followers, but how can Myrkul simply cast a spell and rip away every single follower of a different god - Bhaal? That would be like Loviatar saying "You know what, I don't like dancing and joy and whatnot, so I'm going to cast this spell here and instantly slaughter every dancer on the continent to piss off Lliira." If any god (not even a full god, just a lowly avatar) can have this kind of power over another god's clergy, how is there any protection? And why aren't they doing this all the time to slaughter each other's flocks? Like I said, it's one thing to ask your own devoted followers to lay down their lives for you, but how can a god of one sphere/domain/portfolio have that kind of providence over worshipers who have never let him/her in on any level?
I know it had to happen for plot reasons, but I thought this was a terribly ill-conceived idea. Aside from that it was a smooth and easy read, and I've already started in on the finale: Waterdeep
Someone had to "think of the children!"...assassins, along with demons and devils, were too dark for 2nd Edition D&D and were taken out of the game rules. This was the "In-Realms" way of removing them from the world. Except for Artemis Entreri who wore super thick plot armour and was suddenly a fighter/thief multi-class character who took money for killing people. Mmhmm.
Oh well, no more stupid than the 4E Spellplague changes.
Keep in mind, in 1E, Assassin was a PC class, not just a career.... Myrkul's move took out the members of the class, but not folks who did the same thing without the class-given abilities. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2015 : 22:21:38
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| I know that obviously, but Artemis was a Level 11 Assassin class character in 1st Edition. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe
USA
483 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2015 : 06:12:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
My re-read of Shadowdale I liked it less than I thought, I was really perplexed at how awful Storm was portrayed (although maybe that's in Tantras). She was totally out of character; and it ruined that part of the book for me. You should read Shadow of the Avatar trilogy, it is neat to see what is going on with Elminster during the events of "Shadowdale". I enjoyed that trilogy, particularly the 3rd book.
I couldn't agree more. It was a bit at the end of Shadowdale (the accusing) and the beginning of Tantras (the farce of a "trial".) Storm came off as a completely vindictive roid-rager with zero sense of justice or fairness. The entire town of Shadowdale read like a lynch mob. Yes I understand they just recently lost their beloved Elminster, but the writing was distractingly bad.
Shadow of the Avatar sounds interesting. I'll have to peek ahead in my reading list to see how long before I get up to that point. |
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe
USA
483 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2015 : 06:27:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
Someone had to "think of the children!"...assassins, along with demons and devils, were too dark for 2nd Edition D&D and were taken out of the game rules. This was the "In-Realms" way of removing them from the world. Except for Artemis Entreri who wore super thick plot armour and was suddenly a fighter/thief multi-class character who took money for killing people. Mmhmm.
Oh well, no more stupid than the 4E Spellplague changes.
Ahhh, that explains things. Well, sort of. Now I understand the reasoning behind it, but it was still absurd to have to explicitly narrate all assassins (sans thick plot armour) being removed from Faerun as though nobody from that point on is ever going to accept money for killing someone.
At any rate, I finished Waterdeep yesterday. It was decent, but by this point I'm pretty tired of the Kelemvor/Midnight on-again-off-again romance. Adon has been useless since the first quarter of Shadowdale, Cyric's transformation has been the only interesting character development. I wonder in what fashion he'll retain that magic sword now that he's achieved godhood. She will have all the food she can possibly desire now her master is a god of Murder, Strife, and the Dead.
Tonight I started in on Pool of Radiance. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2015 : 13:39:16
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He doesn't retain that magic sword because he doesn't know what that sword actually is. Mortals can never kill gods without assistance.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2015 : 22:48:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Cards77
Oh my those crossover novels were just horrible.
Tymora's luck was an awesome book |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
746 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2015 : 02:12:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by Cards77
Oh my those crossover novels were just horrible.
Tymora's luck was an awesome book
I'm glad you enjoyed it. I did not enjoy the characters and the story was cheesy. I am however, biased against cross over novels. I VERY much dislike it when authors write about characters that did not originate with said authors. I know it happens all the time (Elminster) but it's magnified when it's done across game settings. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2015 : 05:12:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Cards77
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by Cards77
Oh my those crossover novels were just horrible.
Tymora's luck was an awesome book
I'm glad you enjoyed it. I did not enjoy the characters and the story was cheesy. I am however, biased against cross over novels. I VERY much dislike it when authors write about characters that did not originate with said authors. I know it happens all the time (Elminster) but it's magnified when it's done across game settings.
But most of those characters did originate with those authors... Jeff Grubb and Kate Novak came up with Finder, Holly, and Joel, and Jasmine originated in the Forgotten Realms comic -- which Jeff Grubb wrote.
Also, considering that Planescape was the planar structure the Realms were set in, and that the books deal with FR powers, it's easy enough to argue that the books don't cross game settings -- the Realms was part of Planescape. |
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe
USA
483 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2015 : 20:13:26
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I finished Pools of Radiance while on vacation last week. It felt very amateurish to me, more like the transcript of a gaming session than a novel. One could almost hear the d20s rolling around in the background. The dialogue didn't help - the dopey exchanges between Shal and her horse were particularly cringe worthy. And much like a Grubb/Novak novel, this book had several usages of modern day slang and jargon. Just a little bit of period writing from time to time would do wonders for enhancing the mood for these books, I'm hoping to see the quality increase once I get past the mid 90s and start to experience the new (well, new to me) crop of FR authors. Much like Grubb, I think Jim Ward is a strong game designer, but it doesn't translate all that well to being a novelist.
All that being said, it wasn't an awful book, just not a very good one. I've certainly read far worse, and I'm not dreading two more installments in the Pools series.
Well, that completely finished me up through 1989 in this little project, I've now started in on Horselords. |
Edited by - VikingLegion on 20 Aug 2015 20:15:46 |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2015 : 00:37:10
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quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion
I finished Pools of Radiance while on vacation last week. It felt very amateurish to me, more like the transcript of a gaming session than a novel. One could almost hear the d20s rolling around in the background. The dialogue didn't help - the dopey exchanges between Shal and her horse were particularly cringe worthy. And much like a Grubb/Novak novel, this book had several usages of modern day slang and jargon. Just a little bit of period writing from time to time would do wonders for enhancing the mood for these books, I'm hoping to see the quality increase once I get past the mid 90s and start to experience the new (well, new to me) crop of FR authors. Much like Grubb, I think Jim Ward is a strong game designer, but it doesn't translate all that well to being a novelist.
All that being said, it wasn't an awful book, just not a very good one. I've certainly read far worse, and I'm not dreading two more installments in the Pools series.
Well, that completely finished me up through 1989 in this little project, I've now started in on Horselords.
If you like Mongolian lore and Genghis Khan, you will love this series.
I personally enjoyed it to death. I know a lot of people did not like it. I have a love hate relationship with the final book. Some things I loved. Some I hated. |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
746 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2015 : 00:36:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
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Originally posted by Cards77
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Originally posted by Firestorm
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Originally posted by Cards77
Oh my those crossover novels were just horrible.
Tymora's luck was an awesome book
I'm glad you enjoyed it. I did not enjoy the characters and the story was cheesy. I am however, biased against cross over novels. I VERY much dislike it when authors write about characters that did not originate with said authors. I know it happens all the time (Elminster) but it's magnified when it's done across game settings.
But most of those characters did originate with those authors... Jeff Grubb and Kate Novak came up with Finder, Holly, and Joel, and Jasmine originated in the Forgotten Realms comic -- which Jeff Grubb wrote.
Also, considering that Planescape was the planar structure the Realms were set in, and that the books deal with FR powers, it's easy enough to argue that the books don't cross game settings -- the Realms was part of Planescape.
I'm meaning more of the whole trying to tie it in with (for example) Fistandantilus and other garbage. I'm just biased against I will just come right out and say it. I hate when worlds collide and they try to tie in different authors characters from different settings. I UNDERSTAND the multi-verse. I still play Spelljammer. But just because worlds are connected doesn't mean they need to cross pollinate their major characters in novels.
It's just a personal preference thing, nothing against people that liked it. I know some people think it would be cool for Tasslehoff to show up in the Realms or Fizban to go to Greyhawk etc. I'm just not into that stuff. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2015 : 03:01:16
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| Well, Ol' Fisty was only in the one book, and other than introducing the one character that didn't really need an introduction, the book did nothing for the trilogy. I'd not hold the failings of that one novel against the other two. |
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe
USA
483 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2015 : 15:59:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
If you like Mongolian lore and Genghis Khan, you will love this series.
I personally enjoyed it to death. I know a lot of people did not like it. I have a love hate relationship with the final book. Some things I loved. Some I hated.
I'm an eclectic history buff, enjoying many different cultures/regions/ages, so yes I definitely liked the Genghis vibe from this book.
If I can tangent for a bit, I once read an extremely derogatory post about the Forgotten Realms, dismissing it as nothing more than a world full of boring real Earth analogues. While I can certainly see the similarities of the various cultures, I don't see that as a weakness of FR, but rather a strength. It makes the Realms vastly mutable into whatever world you and your table prefer it to be. I have a friend who is very much into "Arabian Nights" type storytelling. He developed and ran his own Al-Qadim campaign. I have another friend who lived a few years in China and has always been enamored with Far East culture, so in the game I ran I made sure to have a several-months long arc that included traveling to Kara-Tur and Wa. My personal tastes are for Nordic/Scandanavian mythology, and I also like Greek/Roman stuff quite a bit as well (as you might surmise from my user handle). So for me, the Realms are far from a fantasy Earth knockoff, it is a wonderful palette that can become whatever style of adventure a group gravitates towards.
Ok, if you'll allow me to tangent from my tangent: I just got back from 8 days in Scotland, and I'm currently obsessed with Scottish culture/history, particularly the Highland clans and the "Jacobite Rebellions" against the British oppressors. Is there an area in the Realms that is somewhat analogous to the Scottish Highlanders? Some area that contains proud clans who are constantly beset by a stronger, more imperial neighbor that tries to erase their cultural identity by banning their language, their mode of dress, their songs and musical instruments?
Sorry, back on topic. I very much enjoyed Horselords. I've mentioned earlier in this thread how some authors (Grubb, Ward) are strong game designers but their novels don't work for me. In the case of David Cook, I loved his work on the Kara-Tur and Planescape settings, really top-notch stuff. I can see why this novel might have its detractors, it's a bit of a slow burn, with much of the book introducing us to Tuigan culture. In fact, some might say it's a game supplement turned into a novel, and while that might make it dry and boring for some, I was fascinated with learning their society and customs. I think Yamun Khahan is an interesting character - I vacillate between respecting him for being an uncompromising man who goes 100% after what he wants, and despising him for being a heartless monster. He contrasts well with the sheepish Koja, who is his polar opposite in nearly every way.
Excellent start to this series, and I will eagerly dive into book 2: Dragonwall tonight or tomorrow. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2015 : 21:04:29
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Horselords was a great novel, very interesting and I felt it brought a lot of depth to the Realms sub-cultures. It made you feel what it was like to live among the Horde.
Dragonwall was NOT a good book for me, plot wise. I got very annoyed with a few things when I read it. I think Horselords is the best of the series. |
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BenN
Senior Scribe
Japan
382 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2015 : 01:08:41
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quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion
Is there an area in the Realms that is somewhat analogous to the Scottish Highlanders? Some area that contains proud clans who are constantly beset by a stronger, more imperial neighbor that tries to erase their cultural identity by banning their language, their mode of dress, their songs and musical instruments?
I'd say the area of the Realms closest to Scotland is Gwynneth in the Moonshae Isles, beset by Amn. |
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Once More Unto the Breach!! *SPOILERS*
