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Elrond Half Elven
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
322 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2004 : 20:26:16

It just occured to me how large a world Toril really is and Also how many campaign settings are based in the world. Theres Matzica (sp?) and Kara-Tur. Also which of the following are Toril Settings?

Al-Qarim
Spelljammer

Hanx
Elrond

Once upon a midnight dreary, while i pondered, weak and weary,
Over many a quaint and curious volume of forgotten lore-
While i nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping,
As of some one gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door.
-The Raven by Edgar Allan Poe

Hymn
Senior Scribe

Sweden
514 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2004 : 21:26:24

I don't know about Al-Quarim (if you don't mean Al-Quadim).

Spelljammer I guess could be a part of Toril, since I remember reading somwhere of Helmite Spelljammer guardians and stuff, or perhaps that was non canon. Hmm, have to stumble on it again I guess.

Sauro moki kara ochiro - Even monkeys falls from trees.

The path that leads to truth is littered with the bodies of the ignorant - Miyamoto Musashi

Elrond Half Elven
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
322 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2004 : 21:36:51

Ahhh! You can tell that I'm getting tired, just look at the typos. Indeed your right Hymn, I actually meant Al-Quadim!

Hanx
Elrond

Zacas
Learned Scribe

USA
261 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2004 : 22:49:07

If i recall right, yes Al-Quadim was originally based from FR, for their 'mid-east' setting of Toril, just like Maztica was the south-american(Aztec)/spanish settling (if i recall right) setting... and kara-tur was the Asian (As in continent of Asia... not just Oriental people) kinda setting

Spelljammer would be considered one of maybe like 2 or so 'campaigns' that let you connect ALL other DnD campaigns... as each campaign is technically it's own planet, and spelljammer lets you travel through space to different planets... and in the TSR Worlds comic book, they travel from Forgotten Realms to Dragonlance... or maybe it was DL to FR... either way they traveled between the two campaigns...

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Bookwyrm
Great Reader

USA
4740 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2004 : 17:17:24

If you want travel between campaign settings, just use Planescape.

As for the others, remember that TSR decided that they wanted to have as many different possible settings in one place, and since the Realms were so popular, they added on to it, using the blank spots in Ed Greenwood's maps. That rather upset Greyhawk fans, I'm told.

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Faraer
Great Reader

3308 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2004 : 17:29:30

Kara-Tur and Zakhara don't belong on Oerth (which has its own Chineseish and Arabish civilizations) any more than they belong on Toril. Typical of Lorraine Williams-era TSR to mar its (legally) own secondary world for the sake of a few more quick sales.

Edited by - Faraer on 08 Mar 2004 17:33:44

Bookwyrm
Great Reader

USA
4740 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2004 : 17:38:57

Well, first, if I were in Ed Greenwood's place I'd have felt somewhat flattered that they'd chosen my world to be the "archetype" world. On the other hand, though, I'd also be upset at them messing with my baby.

Oh well, he knew that they'd do stuff like that when he signed his name on that contract. And at least we got the Realms.

Besides . . . how many people actually pay attention to those "extra" areas of Toril?

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SiriusBlack
Great Reader

USA
5517 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2004 : 18:08:43

quote:
Originally posted by Faraer

Kara-Tur and Zakhara don't belong on Oerth (which has its own Chineseish and Arabish civilizations) any more than they belong on Toril. Typical of Lorraine Williams-era TSR to mar its (legally) own secondary world for the sake of a few more quick sales.

Well, it's not exactly like the push for sales being more important than anything else has exactly changed with WOTC. I've never been a Kara-Tur or Zakhara fan, but the former definitely has many admirers from the online posts I've seen.

Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2004 : 18:10:57

quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm

Well, first, if I were in Ed Greenwood's place I'd have felt somewhat flattered that they'd chosen my world to be the "archetype" world. On the other hand, though, I'd also be upset at them messing with my baby.

Oh well, he knew that they'd do stuff like that when he signed his name on that contract. And at least we got the Realms.

Besides . . . how many people actually pay attention to those "extra" areas of Toril?

I do use those other parts of the world. Well Zakhara and Maztica more the Kara-Tur. However, there are many people who still keep asking for updates on those parts of the world so they might not be as popular as Faerun but people do use them still!

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

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Elrond Half Elven
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
322 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2004 : 20:55:06

kuje31 has a valid point, people who came into the hobby, pre 3e probably just missed being able to buy these source books, and so as such they don't use the settings (As they can't). Not everyone has access to a cheap printer or laptop and so can't properly utilise PDF versions of the book (Available LEGALLY from svgames). I don't like reading lots of text on the computer, and as such skim-read the book! Perhaps if they where still available they would be used? I can feel and epic D&D Adventure coming on, from one continent to another.........

Hanx
Elrond

Jacinth Greyfox
Acolyte

United Kingdom
35 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2004 : 21:03:05

I for one would definitely be interested in Al-Qadim 3e! I know as a true wannabe student of the Realms i could do the conversion myself however there are only so many hours in the day.

As a rule i like to set my FR games in out of the way locations where a wizards storyline is unlikely to come rampaging through turning the world upside down.

The Throne or the Tomb!

Edited by - Jacinth Greyfox on 15 Mar 2004 21:04:14

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31774 Posts

Posted - 16 Mar 2004 : 00:43:09

I can understand your point Jacinth. There is a great deal of appeal (and freedom) in running campaigns in areas not previously detailed or covered by an FR module or sourcebook.

It gives you the opportunity to create something new...

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lowtech
Learned Scribe

USA
315 Posts

Posted - 18 Mar 2004 : 18:24:28

quote:
Originally posted by Zacas
kara-tur was the Asian (As in continent of Asia... not just Oriental people) kinda setting

What other Asian setting was there? Al-Qadim represented the Arabian (and possibly Persian) setting, and I think the area around Var the Golden represented an Indian setting. Are there other settings in Kara-Tur besides Chinese, Japanese, and Mongol?

Jacinth Greyfox
Acolyte

United Kingdom
35 Posts

Posted - 18 Mar 2004 : 18:34:44

There was a web enhancement on the Wizards site for Mahasarpa a land based on Indian Hindu traditions which you can use (I do anyway.)

Also looking through the Horde boxed set the Caliphate of Semphar is reminiscent of a little slice of Zakhara in Faerun.

The Throne or the Tomb!

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31774 Posts

Posted - 19 Mar 2004 : 03:59:38

If your looking to include a little more 'Asia-flavoring' into your standard Realms campaign, I would suggest that all interested gamers look into the GRR tome Mindshadows.

Here's a snippet -

quote:
There's an Eastern flavour to Mindshadows, not the Far East but the Near East. If your historical geographical references are a bit shaky: I'm talking about India and the subcontinent.

While I don't incorporate the entire campaign setting into my FR games, there's a lot of generalised material in the tome that can be shaped, using the typical Realms-feel.

One small note though, the setting is almost entirely psionics-based - there's very little arcane magic, which I've come to realise, makes people reconsider their choice to use material from the book.

Bookwyrm
Great Reader

USA
4740 Posts

Posted - 19 Mar 2004 : 08:03:57

While I know basically zilch about psionics, it would seem that psionics would make more sense for a region based on India. And I must admit, even through my automatic dislike of culture-lifting, I'd be interested in seeing someone work out the Indian pantheon.

Just so long as it's not me!

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31774 Posts

Posted - 19 Mar 2004 : 08:48:35

Bookwyrm, if you can get a hold of the old 2e PS tome On Hallowed Ground by Colin McComb, inside you'll find the most comprehensive and well-constructed source for the Vedic pantheon. Nearly all of the mythological deities are covered - from Brihaspati, Deity of Wisdom and chief of all the priests to Yama, Judge of the Dead.

The interesting thing about this author's interpretation of the Hindu pantheon seems to be that the book presents two versions of the Indian belief system - one based on the real-world cultural beliefs of southern Asia, and the other, illustrating the D&D gaming environment's obvious influence on the Hindu pantheon. The DM is then free to choose whichever system suits his/her campaign.

Bookwyrm
Great Reader

USA
4740 Posts

Posted - 19 Mar 2004 : 09:20:01

Huh. Okay, if I ever see it, I'll try it out. Likely I won't ever find one, though. At least, at a price I could afford.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36804 Posts

Posted - 21 Mar 2004 : 02:29:23

I didn't care for Maztica -- it just never caught my attention. Zakhara seemed quite interesting, but I didn't have the money to get into it. Kara-Tur, I liked. I managed to acquire some of that stuff, though I fear I may never win an auction for the boxed set!

And now I shall toss out a thought I had, one that proved popular on the WotC forums. It is known that when Netheril fell, not all of the cities were *in* Netheril. Two landed in the Sea of Fallen Stars, and another is rumored to lie in Firedrake Bay in Tethyr...

What if one of the cities of Netheril was doing some *serious* long-range exploration, and was over one of the undescribed continents when it fell?

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Bookwyrm
Great Reader

USA
4740 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2004 : 16:24:58

Intriguing. More likely it would be a city of outcasts, so to speak -- people who disagreed politically?

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Zimeros
Learned Scribe

Brazil
121 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2004 : 17:29:29

I think Maztica the best, but it isn't the southern-american settling, I think it is the central-america culture. And about Kara-tur, I think there is a new version for third edition, "Oriental Adventures", I think it is a fusion of Kara-Tur and Legends of Five Rings. And about Zakhara, if you want, currently a brazilian magazine of RPG(Dragao Brasil) did a not-oficial version of Sha'ir, the wizard of Zakhara, for third edition, I can send it for you.
And third edition forgott other regions of faerum, like Sossal(east of great ice) the land of warriors and xamans of ice.

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Jacinth Greyfox
Acolyte

United Kingdom
35 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2004 : 18:31:02

Hi Zimeros being a "forgotten" part of the Forgotten Realms may not be a bad thing gives a Games master more of a chance to get creative. (IMO)

Bookwyrm , please excuse my complete ignorance of all matters Netherese (sp?) but why would the Netheril flying city be populated by dissidents?

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Bookwyrm
Great Reader

USA
4740 Posts

Posted - 24 Mar 2004 : 16:30:02

Well, I'm not all up on my own Netherese myself. But what I meant was that the Netherese didn't sound like the sort of people who'd take an entire flying city just for exploration. If they were wanting to spread their empire, they'd do it by expanding their borders, not by moving to another continent. Now, if there were a whole bunch of people who wanted out, then a floating city might be found elsewhere . . . .

Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31774 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2004 : 08:23:48

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

What if one of the cities of Netheril was doing some *serious* long-range exploration, and was over one of the undescribed continents when it fell?

An interesting possibility...

To provide more food for thought, there are some rather cryptic 2e references in several sources (mostly Planescape), which suggest that at least one of the more ancient Netheril Enclaves (besides the now infamous Shadow Enclave) made an outer planar journey which lasted for many years (perhaps even a century). There's very little detail to work with, but the references do suggest that the Netherese who made their homes on this extra-planar enclave slowly became influenced by many of the unique cultural trends they were exposed too whilst travelling across most of the Lawful planes.

The details stop there, however one final (and interesting) note, mentions the fact that the inhabitants of the enclave made a conscious decision NOT to return to the Realms after word of Netheril's Fall finally reached them.

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36804 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2004 : 08:34:07

quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm

Well, I'm not all up on my own Netherese myself. But what I meant was that the Netherese didn't sound like the sort of people who'd take an entire flying city just for exploration. If they were wanting to spread their empire, they'd do it by expanding their borders, not by moving to another continent. Now, if there were a whole bunch of people who wanted out, then a floating city might be found elsewhere . . . .

Well, as I said, we do know that some Netherese enclaves ranged pretty far afield. One of the ones in the Sea of Fallen Stars is close to Aglarond... And again, there's rumored to be one off of Tethyr's coast...

Also, look at Shade. They took their entire city into another plane of existence!

The precedent for some serious wandering is set.

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

An interesting possibility...

To provide more food for thought, there are some rather cryptic 2e references in several sources (mostly Planescape), which suggest that at least one of the more ancient Netheril Enclaves (besides the now infamous Shadow Enclave) made an outer planar journey which lasted for many years (perhaps even a century). There's very little detail to work with, but the references do suggest that the Netherese who made their homes on this extra-planar enclave slowly became influenced by many of the unique cultural trends they were exposed too whilst travelling across most of the Lawful planes.

The details stop there, however one final (and interesting) note, mentions the fact that the inhabitants of the enclave made a conscious decision NOT to return to the Realms after word of Netheril's Fall finally reached them.

I'm not familiar with any of that... I never really got into Planescape. Know you of any FR references to go along with this?

Heck, for that matter, what Planescape source had the most info on this? I may try to acquire it so I can read about this enclave.

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31774 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2004 : 08:44:56

There are a considerable amount of Netherese references made in some of the Planescape material, and this should come as no surprise.

We need only look to the amount of spellcraft and magical experimentation the Netherese Arcanists undertook, to understand that planar-energy manipulation, outer-planar exploration, and monstrous creature conjuration, would be regular aspects of the day to day workings of a wizard in Netheril.

If I have some time over the weekend, I'll look into putting some of these references down onto a list. I'll then make it available by email to anyone who wants it.

Lord Rad
Great Reader

United Kingdom
2080 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2004 : 08:51:01

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

There are a considerable amount of Netherese references made in some of the Planescape material, and this should come as no surprise.

Really? Could you tell me which products this information is in, Sage? Id like to try and pick these up.

Lord Rad

"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31774 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2004 : 08:56:30

As I said previously Rad, I'll generate a listing of these references (along with the relevant tomes) and make it available to everyone via ethereal mail.

Since there now appears to be more interest in this idea, I guess I have extra incentive to work on it. So, I'll have to stop sitting on my hands and see what I come up with this weekend...