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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2015 : 20:05:32
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Figured out how to deal with the conundrum of Shade.
What I mean is that in my rewrite very few enclaves are city sized (because that's how Ed had it I believe), only the first 4 enclaves and the last two were capable of holding more than 1000 inhabitants (the first four being Xinlenal, Anauria, Asram, and Hlondath. The last two being Eileanar and Jiksidur. This is because several of those are city sized and affect other areas of Faerun so have to remain city sized) The size of the enclaves represented a mastery of the art that only the original masters possessed or later truly exceptional individuals. My reasoning is that with each successive generation of Archwizard they understood less and less of the Art but were able to advance it more and more by building upon the discoveries of their predecessors (kind of like how we can build super computers but very few understand how they actually work and certainly couldn't make one ourselves using relays and transistors).
So Ioulaum taught Raumark, Laummas, and Twyluth whose enclaves were slightly smaller than Ioulaum's. Their students were smaller still, until the Shadowed Age where the norm for enclaves was to have a single building that could hold no more than 50 individuals.
Truly exceptional beings like Larloch and Karsus (both blessed by the divine I believe - one Jergal the other Mystryl) exceeded those limits and made enclaves that rivalled the likes of Anauria, Asram, or Hlondath (none were ever as big as Xinlenal though).
However the problems come with Shade in that it returns to Faerun in 1370+ and is obviously city sized with several thousand inhabitants (I'm sure the novels detail tens of thousands but that can be put down to exaggeration).
So how does a small building sized enclave like Thultanthar turn into a city sized enclave, and survive in a hostile, lightless, alien environment like the Demi-Plane of Shadow with only 50 people on it.
What I'm picturing is that the enclave travels to the Demi-Plane through a planar portal (kind of like a planar rift or tear but more permanent). The Avatar spell goes off and the rift seals up, but not completely. It leaves a tiny pin prick hole in the fabric of the Demi-Plane that lets through the light of Toril from the Hidden Vale where it was created.
So the people of Thultanthar are protected from the shadowy inhabitants and effects of the Demi-Plane so long as they stay in the ray of light that comes through this tiny rip. Moreso it provides them with a means to grow food to survive.
The only problem left is where does the big city come from. Its not made of Shadow Stuff which probably wouldn't survive well upon its return to Toril (and it is clearly made of rock in the pictures). So what if they recycled the dead. After 2000 years a lot of people would have died and rotted. That's a lot of extra material that could be used to grow food and ultimately be used to form rock (Rock to Mud).
So the city grows outwards from a single tower to a large ring like city with each ring connected to an inner ring by tunnels.
Oh and I turn the Demi-Plane into the Plane because the destruction of the Weave unravels effects of the Sundering that then brings Faerie (and conversely) Shadow back into alignment with Toril thus making them full fledged transitional planes, it just takes several thousand years. Or you could spin it that Shar tried to steal the Weave but it failed and instead tied a portion of the Weave to the Demi-Plane causing it to grow back into a full fledged transitional plane and brought Faerie (its opposite) along with it. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2015 : 00:30:45
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Stone exists in the Plane of Shadow.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2015 : 08:45:30
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And there was me thinking you weren't going to read about netheril.
Of all the things to pick up on this thread you chose stone in the shadow plane.
Since I'm taking a few liberties with the history of faerun I don't see any harm in taking a few liberties with the planes.
Since faerie was once more closely connected to toril and drifted away, then the Demi plane of shadow became the plane of shadow. Plus you have fey crossroads, I'm pretty sure the 3e shadow dale adventure had the players or npcs use faerie to travel distance in the material plane (which is signs of a transitional plane) and more than a few sources have shown the shadow plane can be used to move a distance in the material plane, I decided to come up with an explanation for the change.
At the same time why not reinvent the shadow plane. I don't want it to be just another material plane like place but darker, that's not very interesting. So this plane of shadow is infused with negative energy (which allows me to have shadows behave like ghosts and be able to manifest incorporeal lay through the transitional shadow plane like the ethereal). Furthermore the shadow matter is a pale shadowy version of the material plane.
So you have geographical features on the shadow plane that match those on the material plane but it's all made if shadow stuff, even the creatures are infuse with shadow stuff, and shadow stuff having a link to negative energy drains positive energy (otherwise known as life).
So there is stone and water and trees in the shadow plane, but it is mostly shadowy imitations of the real thing. They are made of shadow stuff but in the shadow plane are almost indistinguishable from the real thing, and prolonged exposure drains life away from living beings (which the early denizens of shade discovered after some time and a few deaths).
There is also some real matter in the plane. Planar tears allow real matter in but such resources are precious and rare.
So in sum up, the shades decided against using shadow stone because it weakened them, and so had to rely on their own resources. Life was really harsh for shade in the first century. After the princes discovered how to infuse themselves with shadow stuff they started incorporating shadow stone into the enclave to stop the commoners trespassing into secret areas.
At least that's how I'm spinning it for my rewrite.
One major problem I'm encountering (apart from the names which I still suck at) is that I'm running out of enclaves. I've got far more arch wizards than enclaves |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2015 : 00:16:44
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It's not either of those things. And what is hidden/guarded is in the Greycloak Hills, not Evereska itself.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Duneth Despana
Learned Scribe
Belgium
273 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2015 : 12:31:19
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quote: Originally posted by George Krashos
It's not either of those things. And what is hidden/guarded is in the Greycloak Hills, not Evereska itself.
-- George Krashos
O.O .... please, go on.... |
« There is no overriding « epic » in the Realms, but rather a large number of stories, adventures, and encounters going on all the time. [...]. Each creative mind adds to the base, creating, defining, and making their contribution to the rich diversity of the Realms. [...]. But Ed built the stage upon which all the plays are presented. Thanks Ed. » -FR Comic no.1
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2015 : 12:37:00
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The founding date of Candlekeep is -200 DR. Some Netherese influence in terms of its founding would be realistic. Look at the "Wyrms of the North" write-up for Miirym: I'd always thought that the arch sorcerer Torth was Netherese.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2015 : 12:22:12
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quote: Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Sigh, I have to agree that arch sorcerer torth does seem a likely candidate for a netherese archmage.
Told you so.
Btw, for what it's worth, Ed's original concept for "enclaves" did not require them to be flying cities. It was simply the name for any particular archwizard's territory/holding.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2015 : 12:25:45
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quote: Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Sigh, I have to agree that arch sorcerer torth does seem a likely candidate for a netherese archmage.
Told you so.
Btw, for what it's worth, Ed's original concept for "enclaves" did not require them to be flying cities. It was simply the name for any particular archwizard's territory/holding.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2015 : 22:44:16
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quote: Originally posted by George Krashos
The founding date of Candlekeep is -200 DR. Some Netherese influence in terms of its founding would be realistic. Look at the "Wyrms of the North" write-up for Miirym: I'd always thought that the arch sorcerer Torth was Netherese.
-- George Krashos
I am now looking into this also and my current version is that Candlekeep was actualy founded by mortal Deneir as a repository of written knowledge he was obsessed with even during his life. Interesting for me is also that he ascended 25DR and in 75DR unknown Alaundo came to candlekeep... |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2015 : 21:22:35
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Well a mortal ascension seems the most likely scenario.
I am leaning towards an accident that resulted in the creation of Deneir.
I have some ideas floating in my head about Candlekeep being setup by the Selskar Order as a secure experimental facility (like the Mines of Dekanter became).
When the Selskar Order was outlaw the keep was abandoned.
Around -339 DR the Archsorcerer Torth flees west and finds candlekeep and a few remaining prefects (what members of the Selskar Order were called since they monitored the experimental facilities).
Around -200 DR Archsorcerer Torth binds Miirym. 15 years later he dies in a magical accident establishing complex wards around the site (the wards require tokens and wards were a favourite of the Netherese).
What Torth didn't know is that the site was home to a number of the Nether Scrolls that Aldlas Sodhese (founder of the Selskar Order) had hidden here while he tried to find the rest of the stolen scrolls so he could become a hero to the people of Netheril.
So Torth Deneir merges with the wards, and the Nether scrolls. His whisperings over the centuries to the prefects result in the foundation of a religion.
One trouble I have found is a line in Races of Faerun which states quote: Ancient Jhaamdath was one of the first human cultures to develop the written word, and, as such, literate Chondathans have long honoured Deneir, the Lord of All Glyphs and Images. The church of Deneir has spread to other cultures as Chondathan traders spread the trade tongues of Common or its antecedent,
and
quote: Chondathan merchants carried with them the teachings of Deneir, Helm, and Waukeen.
However I believe I have an explanation. It all hinges on what you define as Chondathan, and how you interpret the first quote which doesn't specifically state that Deneir's worship originated in Jhaamdath, merely that the Chondathans have long venerated Deneir. Surely the people of Jhaamdath would be known as Jhaamdathi. So what if Chondathans are the merging of Jhaamdathi and Netherese (thus giving rise to the trade tongue which merchants spread).
So Deneir's worship starts in Candlekeep, the mixing of Netherese and Jhaamdathi people in the Heartlands carries Deneir's worship back to the Vilhon Reach and beyond. So the Chondathan merchants did spread Deneir's worship and the trade tongue, but Deneir originated in candlekeep after -200 DR.
The church formally forms in -25 DR, probably somewhere in Cormyr (where the orthodox church is centred I believe).
Just a rough idea, and not really connected to Netheril, but its part of the Diaspora which I'm focusing on as well. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2015 : 20:44:35
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Some more musings, this time about Shar and Gorothir.
quote: The inside of this black leather corset contains the sacred tale of how the mythical Shar worshiper Gorothir felled an empire with only a lie and a secret.
quote: The Girdle is named for its reputed maker, the priest Gorothir (who may in fact have been given the belt by Shar herself or by one of her servants). What is certain is that in his role as Dark Prophet of the Night, Gorothir wore the Girdle for some seven centuries, from the waning of Netheril (in Dalereckoning, around the year -310). The belt is obviously protected by very powerful (some say divine) preservative magic that has survived to this day, and it is probably one of the oldest garments in Faerūn. Gorothir was a cunning, energetically evil man, given to sensual excesses and sudden orgies of violence. He was widely feared, even among Sharran clergy, and Shar gave him seemingly endless powers with which to lead her church, hoping to keep it strong and flourishing as the sophisticated might of Netheril was dashed away. Gorothir is known to have had the ability to turn himself at will into a man-stag twice as tall as a man and to twist spells hurled against him so that their effects went wild. Darkly handsome and a lover of intrigues, Gorothir sired countless children and ruled the faithful of Shar (and the lands they held sway over) like a mad tyrant. In the end, that was his undoing. His descendants hated and feared him. For one thing, he regarded his bloodkin as his personal slaves, and often appeared to snatch lovely young ladies away from their chosen grooms and whisk them afar, into servitudes of his own cruelly whimsical selections, never to be seen again. Ultimately, his own grandchildren plotted to bring Gorothir down. They met with the mages he was fond of forcing to yield up their best magics, the rulers of lands who did not wish to be under the Shadow of Shar forever, and the clergy of rival gods. Together they lured the Dark Prophet to a place of power sacred to Selūne. Gorothir hoped to desecrate the place and steal its magics for his own, corrupting its guardian priestess and subverting her best spells to serve him. He was busily carrying out those ends on a hot night in Mirtul of 446 DR when his foes revealed themselves in force, acting in concert against him. The Dark Prophet was destroyed, torn apart and blasted simultaneously in the heart of a massive conflagration of warring magic in which many died. Out of that Night of Dark Fire, the protective magics of Shar preserved Gorothirs staff, which was angrily seized and broken by an arch-wizard who paid for the act with his life, and the Girdle, snatched up and hidden away by one of Gorothirs kin as booty.
quote: Gorothir of Shar, the Dark Prophet of the Night, dominated the Church of the Dark Lady from the waning of Netheril (circa 310 DR) until his death in the Year of the Unblinking Eye (446 DR). Hated by his countless descendants for his tyrannical ways, the Dark Prophet was destroyed by his own grandchildren, who arranged for his foes (mages whose magics he had commandeered, clergy of rival gods, and rulers whose thrones he had usurped) to ambush him while he raided a place of power sacred to Selūne. The massive conflagration of warring magic destroyed Shars servant, leaving only his staff and girdle untouched. An archwizard of Selūne shattered the Shadowstaff of Gorothir - an act for which he paid with his lifebut Gorothirs girdle survived and has since passed through many hands.
Now I've moved Sepulchre somewhat and changed it from a city to a small shrine to Shar that is centred on the Cave of Whispers in the Fallen Lands (Sepulchre is a tomb and the cave of whispers could easily be the last resting place of a godling).
So that makes Gorothir the high priest of Sepulchre from -310 DR onwards.
It also puts him near to the Eight Throned Realm that I've been working on in the Tunlands, High Moors, Goblin Marches region. When people fled the fall of Netheril they didn't all run straight to the Western Heartlands. The first to flee established realms in the Tunlands, others that arrived after were forced to move further on into the Backlands, then others even further into the Sunset Vale. This pushed the ffolk towards the coast (and the Moonshae Isles later).
So horse nomads from the northern reaches of Jhaamdath (although not part of Jhaamdath), angarth barbarians, and a bunch of city states created by natives from lost Thaeravel and Low Netherese all end up living in close proximity in this region. They eventually become united into a federation of states.
Now I had originally envisaged this realm perishing before 1 DR after intrigues from various successors of the code of reversion plotted to gain power. But I wonder if I could not use Gorothir.
He felled an empire with a lie and a secret. Now it may not have been an actual empire, but it could be the last remains of an empire (ie the last successor of netheril) if the eight throned realm survived until 446 DR.
It did state he was destroyed by his children, rival clergy, and the rulers of thrones he usurped. Now its unlikely Gorothir could usurp multiple thrones at once unless he claimed a federation of thrones (eight thrones to be exact). The "thrones" is crucial.
So perhaps I can weave in the imprisonment of Elah Nydra/Eldath (from Anauroch) with an Eldathan attempt to reclaim the Anauroch Desert at Elah Zad (one of the artefacts of the nature gods was used to reclaim a portion of the desert), and the eight throned realm of Nyrax in the depths of the Marsh of Tun, and the death/imprisonment of a god in the High Moors, and Gorothir's death.
All I need is a convincing lie and a secret. Perhaps no one knew Elah was an archlich except Gorothir. Perhaps he spread dissent among the other rulers with a lie . The end result was that the realm fought itself and he claimed the ruins before finally being destroyed by Nyrax and Selune's clergy.
I vaguely remember an inn that was home to the first Harpers in the Tunlands that was destroyed by Gargauth (or a battle between Elminster and Gargauth/Gargoth). I wonder if that inn could not provide some help here |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11815 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2015 : 23:51:36
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quote: Originally posted by Wrigley
quote: Originally posted by George Krashos
The founding date of Candlekeep is -200 DR. Some Netherese influence in terms of its founding would be realistic. Look at the "Wyrms of the North" write-up for Miirym: I'd always thought that the arch sorcerer Torth was Netherese.
-- George Krashos
I am now looking into this also and my current version is that Candlekeep was actualy founded by mortal Deneir as a repository of written knowledge he was obsessed with even during his life. Interesting for me is also that he ascended 25DR and in 75DR unknown Alaundo came to candlekeep...
That's an interesting take (that mortal Deneir helped found Candlekeep). I really do like that one, and if the times do fit around it, that definitely could be something that could be tweaked. For instance, was Deneir involved in raising the mythal around Candlekeep that Larloch later tries to draw on..... and did this somehow have a linkage to Deneir returning? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2015 : 09:15:46
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Well I'm having a go at reinventing the various gods and their origins to try and sort of the mess of deific nonsense we have had in the past.
For Netheril I have Selune and Shar come into existence from old cave paintings found in the Anauroch Basin.
The fact that those paintings depicted old gods from the talfir and the proto talfir before them does not necessarily mean they are the same gods.
Amaunator comes into existence shortly after the raising of the first enclave. The sun god idea then spreads to Calimshan through Tsindylspar (although Calimshan probably had lots of minor sun cults, but I think for the most part the calishites are not particularly devout and so most of their gods were little more than demigods). From there the sun god of Calimshan spreads to Jhaamdath and then when Jhaamdath is destroyed the Jhaam people move to the dragon coast and western heartlands and the mixing of netherese and jhaam also causes the mixing of faithful of amaunator and the calishite sun god (probably now called L'athun). The result is Lathaunatar, later Lathander.
Targus is a minor giant godling of war that was worshipped by the barbarians of the Ride which the Netherese borrowed for their own god.
Kozah is a deific cast off of Sseth, discovered in the depths of Monikar (which I renamed) who birthed a cult of maniacs intent on destroying Netheril. It was originally part of Sseth (an alias) but he later cast it free when Netheril fell and it slowly dwindled into a nothingness.
Tyche and Jannath are born out of the creation of the low netherese subgroup of humans (the mixing of rengarth, talfir, and netherese). The people of Thaeravel had a number of gods that were all but lost when Thaeravel fell. The memory of them persisted in myths and legends that were passed on to the low netherese descendants and eventually became Jannath the Great Earthmother and Tyche the goddess of luck (she was originally a god of fate). Their original names and portfolios are unknown, and there is no real connection between the original talfir deities and the reborn netherese deities. Incidentally the Earthmother survived in the ffolk people that fled the fall of Thaeravel into the western heartlands, pushed ever further westward by Netherese expansion until finally they crossed the sword coast.
Moander isn't even a god at all during Netheril's time. He was an ancient primordial born out of the rot and decay from the fall of Isstosseffifil, that ran out of fuel somewhere in the Desertsmouth Mountains and dwindled into almost nothingness.
During Netheril's golden age various groups fled the growing empire (the ones that founded Monikar for instance) and one such group came across the remains of Moander and started a cult. It wasn't until the fall of netheril however that Moander became a deity, when one Alithar Chonis relinquished his divinity to Moander as part of a bargain that Moander instantly reneged on. Moander became a demigod that marched on Cormanthor, and Alithar Chonis became his unwitting and unwilling servant.
As for the other gods I'm loosely basing my redesign on the Races of Faerun excerpts like this.
quote: The melting pot nature of Tethyrian culture has ensured that most deities of the Faerūnian pantheon are venerated in Tethyrian- occupied lands. Tempus is believed to have been a Talfirian deity who defeated the Netherese god Targus (Garagos). Netherese refugees brought with them the faith of Amaunator (reborn as Lathander), Chauntea, Talos, Mystryl (reborn as Mystra), Selūne, and Shar. Illuskan invaders introduced worship of Auril, Mielikki, and Oghma. Calishite armies introduced the faiths of Ilmater and Tyr. Chondathan merchants carried with them the teachings of Deneir, Helm, and Waukeen. Newer deities have arisen and been adopted as well, including Cyric, Kelemvor, and Siamorphe. Other deities that enjoy large Tethyrian followings include Eldath, Milil, Shaundakul, and Torm. Six of the most prominent churches in Tethyrian-occupied lands include the faiths of Cyric, Helm, Ilmater, Kelemvor, Oghma, and Siamorphe. Siamorphe is originally a Tethyrian goddess, worshiped primarily in Waterdeep, Baldurs Gate, and Tethyr. Her church has waxed and waned in centuries past as waves of idealism and cynicism have swept the nobility, but Siamorphe is currently ascendant. The church of the Divine Right is most popular among the HUMANS 104 nobility, although Siamorphe is also seen as a guarantor of just rule by many commoners.
As I noted before Deneir is stated as being Chondathan, but of course Chondathans as a people didn't really come into existence until after the fall of Jhaamdath (I reckon chondathan is actually a fusing of netherese and jhaam peoples). It also states that Deneir is popular among chondathans because jhaamdath has long had the written word, it doesn't actually state that Deneir originated in Jhaamdath. The fact that his organised church was only born in 25 DR says to me that he didn't exist too long before this date. Gods cannot exist without worshippers (canon might say otherwise, but illogical canon isn't canon to me, and canon doesn't mean much after 4e/5e). For most lawful and benevolent gods you need a church in order to properly establish a presence and prevent conflict.
The fact that candlekeep is a prominent place for Deneir (as is Cormyr and Sembia) points to Deneir having at least some Netherese connection since the Western Heartlands were first settled by the Netherese.
I'm still sticking with Candlekeep being an outpost of Netheril, given that Netheril's actually control of the Western Heartlands was only as far as the Backlands.
It also seems sensible for one of the largest and most secure repositories of mundane and magical knowledge to also contain a few of the lost Nether Scrolls (it also explains the very strong ties to the weave that Larloch tried to consume).
Archsorcerer Torth died messing around with the wards of Candlekeep (probably creating them) so I think his death signified his merging with the weave and being bound to Candlekeep, then his whisperings to those nearby made people think he was a god. Belief begets divinity (with a little hidden extra) and so he becomes a god and a church is established beginning with candlekeep.
Now the chondathans settled Cormyr first from Impiltur, and these wouldn't have had Deneir and his teachings with them initially, but the chondathans from the Dragon Coast brought it to them and the orthodox Church of Deneir is most strong in Cormyr.
Deneir's Church also spread back into the Vilhon Reach as civilisation returned, and so when Chondath colonised Sembia it brought Deneir's church their as well (much removed from the one around the Dragon Coast). And that's the beginning of the schism between orthodox and non orthodox (amplified by missing heads of the church in recent years).
It is odd that Oghma is an illuskan deity originally, but probably has something to do with ancient Illusk and giantish influence from Tuern and Gundarlun. It is likely that Deneir's similarity to Oghma brought about some kind of clerical conflict which resulted in Deneir becoming subservient to Oghma, but it would seem that the Illuskan faiths were much more militant and so dominated their netherese, and jhaam analogues, either absorbing them or dominating them.
I think after Netheril I might work a bit on the Vilhon Reach after -255 DR, there is almost no information at all but it seems a very important gap in history as it involves the birth of the faerunian pantheon and the dark three and the dawn cataclysm. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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