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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Oct 2015 : 17:06:49
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Hello Ed and THO.
Would it be possible to know if in the present era (post-Sundering), after Eilistraee spent time merged with Vhaeraun, and after her followers worked with his, the goddess is able to take male clergy, without them having to undergo the Changedance?
Are brother and sister/their followers still enemies, after all that happened?
Thanks for your time, and my best wishes for both of you, and Ed's wife.
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 28 Oct 2015 01:47:13 |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2015 : 00:12:18
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I for one like the connection Masked Mage. 
Dearest THO, your absence is sorely vexing. This scroll is falling dark and dusty without you.
I wonder if you or Ed have had pickled green tomatoes, and whether you found them as tasty as I did when my dad introduced me to them. If not, that's fine; my mom thinks we're oddballs too (also due to our affection for avocado, which she doesn't share). Apologies if I or someone else has already asked about this. And we're looking forward (oh so patiently!) to your return.  |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2015 : 20:26:24
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I would like to also post my question for Ed and I just pray to recieve specific answer (not a mystic one)- Could you clear for my how Roll of the Years was created (what made it this clear)?
There is clear evidence in FR of working propecies. This is undestandable for me as at least some dieties or powers can predict or plan themselves those events. What is not clear to me is how was made the Roll of the Years where few oracles (Alaundo, Aughtra, ...) put together a list of most visible events for each year (my view) for more than thousand years to the future. It is way too specific for usual prophecy (marking exact year when it will happen). There seem to be some power over Fate itself at play but I do not know of any in FR pantheon that can see clear predicted future (if Savras could do it, he would not be a minor diety but one of the most important, at least for other gods).
And one small aside - do you have a description of Baator before fallen angels made Nine Hells there? |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2015 : 00:39:47
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Firstly, I hope the Lady Greenwood is recovering!
Then, a not-mystic answer? Where's the fun in that?
I'm not Ed, and I'm sure he'll have a much better answer for you than I do, but in the meantime here are a couple of things to consider.
Prophecy isn't about controlling events so that the vision comes true. It's only foresight, or perhaps even less -- it might just be a dream in which certain conditions have taken effect as a result of other events, which haven't happened yet in the dreamer's "real world" experience. Such a dream, even if given the glory of being called a prophecy or vision, just predicts that "if things go along as it seems they're somewhat likely to go, this will be a somewhat likely result." Probability isn't a guarantee. The lack of clear sight or complete knowledge when it comes to the Roll allows us the freedom to say that things changed, and the likely disaster was averted (or the boon was lost) and this is valuable to DMs who want to take one or more of their campaigns in a different direction. Those who don't want to, don't have to; they can just use the Roll as it's written, or ignore it entirely. The more nonspecific and open-to-interpretation the campaign material is, the more useful it is to creative DMs and players.
As far as I can see, there's no control being exerted over Fate. Alaundo and others merely had visions of certain things coming to pass. From a storytelling perspective, it's neat to line them up in a row, one per year, but it's not (and shouldn't be) that simple. "Recorded" history in the Realms is approaching 40,000 years long. There have logically been a very large number of seers in that time... taking all of them into account, including everyone from Alaundo or Savras all the way down to a tribesman claiming to have visions because he wants to become the next shaman. The "test" of a seer is in how many of their predictions come true. Alaundo probably wasn't right about absolutely everything... he simply has a higher ratio of right-to-wrong. He isn't always right; maybe not even 50% of the time. And even when he was right, he probably didn't see the entire event unfold so the words that were recorded would only give hints and vague warnings. Like a flight of griffons here, and a town there, and clouds -- this gets interpreted as best as possible, and something is foretold.
Alaundo's prophecies are only called prophecies because someone said "hey, this guy was talking in his sleep about something, and look around: it's happening!" Over the course of a few years, a few things he'd predicted came to pass, and people started getting really curious about what else he would say... and they recorded it because they wouldn't be there personally to determine the truth of predictions 100 or 1000 years into the future. It's only by accident that he's famous. And his life probably sucked, when you think about it... being followed everywhere, begged and ordered to prophesy all the time, resented by some for not prophesying glory and wealth for them, etc. Those visions might just have easily been called dreams -- or brain damage.
Yes, there was probably some sort of "gift" at work. He was certainly more legit than the tribesman painting himself with rabbit's blood and snorting powdered leaves trying to convince his co-hunters and gatherers that he was attuned to the gods. But it doesn't mean he controlled destiny.
Also, I think Ed has said here or elsewhere that the prophesied events for which the years were "named" were not necessarily the most visible events in each year.
- The Year of Sinking Sails, 1180 DR: a bunch of Sembian ships are sunk in the Pirate Isles. Sembians (or the Council, at least) were certainly aware of that, but there's a whole lot of Toril that has nothing to do with Sembia. Big things were happening in Waterdeep, which commanded attention there. And there's no way the Sembian fleet was the biggest news in Ulgarth.
- The Year of Maidens, 1361 DR: This is the year of the first Banedeath in Zhentil Keep. Obvious connection to maidens? There isn't one. But I'm guessing somewhere else in Faerun, maybe in a big city but maybe in a small town, some maidens were up to something. Apparently, it wasn't something that the majority of Faerun was aware of, though. Much of the Roll is like that. "Tiny" events, insignificant outside some hamlets that don't appear on most maps, which Alaundo (or someone else) saw and the listeners faithfully recorded.
I think the Roll is most useful as "flair" in storytelling, or a muse of sorts to inspire creative adventure-writing. The Year of Dreaming? Interesting...
Comic relief is good. "The Year of Furious Waves was a bad year for fishing."
There's also the fact that most commoners probably haven't memorized the Roll. Within a community, whether it's a thorp or an empire, years are remembered for events which are significant in the community. Outside that community, the years will have different names.
Of course, our Alaundo is awesome, and I'm not doubting his powers.
Sorry about the wall of text, and I'm definitely not trying to hijack the thread. I'm interested in Ed's response just like everyone else. But our lovely messenger is MIA at the moment and the thread needs a poke every once in a while to keep it awake. 
Questions of my own: has Bhalgustrin taken the stage at any point in the home game? Any interesting events/alliances in his past? Did he have history with Elminster or Alokkair? Was the "awakening" literal (Bhalgustrin being dormant for some length of time) or figurative (everybody in Ordulin had forgotten there was a lich under their feet)? How long was he down there? Was Thindol a significant character in the Zhentarim at the time of his spectacular demise? Just curious about any unrevealed lore that Ed has already determined for them.
Unless of course one of them is a secret boogeyman in the Knights' exploits, in which case I was never here, wink wink.
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Edited by - xaeyruudh on 04 Nov 2015 00:41:24 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2015 : 00:56:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
And one small aside - do you have a description of Baator before fallen angels made Nine Hells there?
If memory serves as far as canon goes (from 2nd E. planescape perhaps) the plane actually formed by the first fall and the lowest hell is formed by Asmodeus' real body...
Do you have Ed's old Nine Hells articles from Dragon Magazine? The first article also gives a list of literary works you can look to for their descriptions (Dante's Inferno for example). |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2015 : 01:19:19
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We know that Elminster has several descendants who have served the good of the Realms. Are there any nemeses from his past whose descendants have continually found themselves in opposition to him, even if indirectly in their furtherance of organizations and aims that Elminster hinders? The Chembryls, perhaps, or one of the elven families that started the Eldreth Veluuthra? It was actually Szchulan Darkoon, who reminded me of Xeno and Maskul Mirrormane, which inspired this query, but I thought someone else might be a more interesting/theatrical choice.
Then again, perhaps there's something that makes Szchulan theatrical. I suddenly have a picture in my head of Christopher Lee (Saruman and Count Dooku) as the High Imperceptor in the FR movie that should have happened. I wonder when our world will see his like again...
On an unrelated note, Ed, I'm sure this has been said before so I guess I'm just casting my supporting vote. I think a meeting of the Wizards Three would be a cool way to re-establish links with the other settings, thus restoring a "one big happy family" feeling to the various worlds we've visited over the last several decades. But... this time perhaps THO finds herself unexpectedly hosting the Wizards... oh my. Muahaha, and so on...
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Ousia
Acolyte
Denmark
9 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2015 : 23:43:59
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Hi fellow fans of the Forgotten Realms,
I have some questions on Eveningstar and I hope that you can help me.
1. When was Eveningstar founded?
2. Who founded Eveningstar?
3. Why was Eveningstar founded?
4. Which year was Tessaril Winter appointed Lord of Eveningstar?
5. Who was Lord in Eveningstar prior to Tessaril and who served as herald?
Regards
Kaare (Denmark) |
To be updated |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2015 : 08:28:37
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Hiya! Hope it's a happy season in the probably-cold-again North!
Mathulk's House stood in Suzail in the 1370s, right? Is it gone or still there after the Sundering?
And where in the city is Taumurt's Lane?
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2015 : 18:40:28
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Hello again, all! Just a flying visit between assignments, to bring you the words of Ed and to update things as much as I can...
First off, Ed is busier than ever, with the Realms (all top secret for now, I'm afraid), his new TEGG ("The Ed Greenwood Group") publishing venture [for more on that, and the 15 new "settings" Ed will introducing to us all, 13 by him, one by Steven Schend, and the other based on Twin Fire's FOLKLORE: The Affliction game you can see on Kickstarter from Greenbrier Games, look at OnderLibrum.com throughout November, as the settings get revealed, one by one; you'll recognize a lot of names of folks who've worked on the Realms and elsewhere in gaming and fantasy fiction over the years], and with looking after the Lady Greenwood, who turned 80 last month and is frail and failing, I'm afraid.
However, Ed has forgotten neither the Realms nor we scribes, so herewith, some fragmentary answers...in no particular order at all.
xaeyruudh, Malthulk's House stood in Suzail in the 1350s and right up until the present day; Ed tells me so far as he knows it's had a new roof and new doors, but no other outward changes during that time. He's away from his Suzail street map right now, but will have an answer for you on Taumurt's when he can...(I'm recalling east end, not far from the Promenade, myself, but may be confusing it with a similarly-named street, from Realmsplay years and years ago).
As for nemeses, YES, but Ed will have to pirouette around some NDAs before he can answer you, because those sort of answers tend to run right into Realms authors' plot schemes...and as for hosting the Wizards Three; my, that would be deliciously dangerous fun for me, but as for a public article, that'll need Wizards permission...
Bhalgustrin has never taken the stage in the "home" campaign nose to nose with any of we Knights, but he HAS been active elsewhere, that we ran into the aftermath and gossip thereof...
And I'd just like to tell all scribes that in your reply to Wrigley, you stated the "prophecies in the Realms aren't actually predestiny or unavoidable fate, but more after-the-fact interpretation" view perfectly, and it's what Ed believes/writes/designs...if the gods COULD control things perfectly, there'd be no heroism, as mortals would just be following scripts, so your adventuring is all for naught...
Oh, and yes to pickled green tomatoes. Scribes, if you are new to this delicacy, eat lightly, for in some folks, eating too much of it introduces "the runs"...
Ousia/Kaare, Eveningstar was founded several centuries before the current Realmsdate, but I'll have to contact Ed for specifics (to our characters, growing up in Espar, it's just "always been there") to all of your queries.
Irennan, yes, there can at the present time in the Realms be male clergy of Eilistraee (no changedance necessary).
SOME of their followers are still foes (humans even of the same family and/or political bent and/or organization can disagree fervently, as we're all well aware, and this applies here, too), and Eilistraee and Vhaeraun remain very different in outlook and character...but they now UNDERSTAND each other very thoroughly, and make allowances for each other's differing aims, styles, and strivings far more than they hitherto did...
More later, everyone. The phone (yes, I still have one of those) is going ringy-dingy, and the call display tells me it's Ed!
love,
THO
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Edited by - The Hooded One on 11 Nov 2015 18:47:14 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2015 : 18:50:56
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Hello again, all! Just a flying visit between assignments, to bring you the words of Ed and to update things as much as I can...
First off, Ed is busier than ever, with the Realms (all top secret for now, I'm afraid), his new TEGG ("The Ed Greenwood Group") publishing venture [for more on that, and the 15 new "settings" Ed will introducing to us all, 13 by him, one by Steven Schend, and the other based on Twin Fire's FOLKLORE: The Affliction game you can see on Kickstarter from Greenbrier Games, look at OnderLibrum.com throughout November, as the settings get revealed, one by one; you'll recognize a lot of names of folks who've worked on the Realms and elsewhere in gaming and fantasy fiction over the years], and with looking after the Lady Greenwood, who turned 80 last month and is frail and failing, I'm afraid.
However, Ed has forgotten neither the Realms nor we scribes, so herewith, some fragmentary answers...in no particular order at all.
xaeyruudh, Malthulk's House stood in Suzail in the 1350s and right up until the present day; Ed tells me so far as he knows it's had a new roof and new doors, but no other outward changes during that time. He's away from his Suzail street map right now, but will have an answer for you on Taumurt's when he can...(I'm recalling east end, not far from the Promenade, myself, but may be confusing it with a similarly-named street, from Realmsplay years and years ago).
As for nemeses, YES, but Ed will have to pirouette around some NDAs before he can answer you, because those sort of answers tend to run right into Realms authors' plot schemes...and as for hosting the Wizards Three; my, that would be deliciously dangerous fun for me, but as for a public article, that'll need Wizards permission...
Bhalgustrin has never taken the stage in the "home" campaign nose to nose with any of we Knights, but he HAS been active elsewhere, that we ran into the aftermath and gossip thereof...
And I'd just like to tell all scribes that in your reply to Wrigley, you stated the "prophecies in the Realms aren't actually predestiny or unavoidable fate, but more after-the-fact interpretation" view perfectly, and it's what Ed believes/writes/designs...if the gods COULD control things perfectly, there'd be no heroism, as mortals would just be following scripts, so your adventuring is all for naught...
Oh, and yes to pickled green tomatoes. Scribes, if you are new to this delicacy, eat lightly, for in some folks, eating too much of it introduces "the runs"...
Ousia/Kaare, Eveningstar was founded several centuries before the current Realmsdate, but I'll have to contact Ed for specifics (to our characters, growing up in Espar, it's just "always been there") to all of your queries.
Irennan, yes, there can at the present time in the Realms be male clergy of Eilistraee (no changedance necessary).
SOME of their followers are still foes (humans even of the same family and/or political bent and/or organization can disagree fervently, as we're all well aware, and this applies here, too), and Eilistraee and Vhaeraun remain very different in outlook and character...but they now UNDERSTAND each other very thoroughly, and make allowances for each other's differing aims, styles, and strivings far more than they hitherto did...
More later, everyone. The phone (yes, I still have one of those) is going ringy-dingy, and the call display tells me it's Ed!
love,
THO
Thanks for the anser! |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2015 : 18:53:21
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| That's an interesting tidbit on Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. Good to know! |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2015 : 23:36:18
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| Thank you very much, milady, and we hope you can return again soon! Much love to Ed and his wife. I hope peace and all the happy memories win through the struggle. |
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Rivenhelm
Acolyte
32 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2015 : 23:51:33
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Hi THO and Ed!
Good to see you grace these pages again. Definitely hoping you get more time in your schedule, soon, to come back more often.
First off, really hoping Jenny starts feeling herself soon. Would really like to send a card, flowers, or other well wishes if I could (feel free to PM me if that's a possibility), but please send along those wishes to them both for me.
I have been re-reading "Swords of Eveningstar" again as sort of a primer for my next session with my players. This time with my FRQ1, FRE1 & FRE3 modules and maps open right alongside. I have been having great fun plotting the course of activities of the Knights through the Halls and Arabel! Through the first half of the book it has been easy to plot their progress and get a new perspective (at least for me) on picturing things and placing my "mind's eye" more in the setting.
A couple things came up; questions and theories that I'd like to ask about of both you, as a player, and of Ed if he can elaborate.
It has been said here that the map in FRE3 has mislabeled the location of Pillar Rock (#14) and that it is where the map of FRQ1 and VGtC have that same number. Both of those sources have no cave at the FRE3 #14 location and my thought at the time was to "move" the cave rather than just draw a new cave at the actual Pillar Rock. Well, when I was re-reading the book, it dawned on me that this existing cave at the FRQ1 Thaddath farm (#32) may in fact be the cave location where the Knights discussed their forays into the Halls below the rock prominence they dubbed "the Snout". Or is that location further up the Gorge? It makes sense though. That location above the farm does afford a nice "view" of the village that was mentioned in the novel.
I loved the scenes inside the halls and tracking those on the map. The "front door" scene was pretty funny. Would have liked a bit more of a hint on how the Knights avoided the "statue trap" since it was on their minds a bit. Seems like it may have been cut for word count reasons and that's why it was never paid off properly.
I also loved tracking the initial scenes in Arabel. It was very easy to trace their movements through the city with the map in hand from FRE1. Was hoping for a few more street names, but that's just me. I was able to trace their movements pretty accurately until one point in the book. After that I couldn't ever pick up their movements properly. It was as if the story diverged from grounded in the nuts & bolts of a game experience to more of a fanciful tale. That tipping point came on the roof-top chase of Bey & Agannor by Pennae. Like Pennae after she was knocked unconscious, I likewise lost my orientation on the map, and as a consequence never could accurately locate the warehouse where the gate back to the Halls was located. Now that I'm thinking on it, this was probably Ed's intent; keeping that location vague. Anywho, my next question would be, where would that warehouse be on the Arabel map? I'm also guessing that this is where this fictional story differs from your game experience with the ways in-and-out of the Halls just based on the departure of "faithful details." Also, about the terminus of that gate in the Halls (which I was able to pinpoint) it seems to stretch across the corridor rather than being flush against the wall. How would one avoid going thru the gate to reach the far side of the corridor?? Did the Knights in gameplay have a problem with this exploring the Halls?
After this part in the story I had trouble tracking the movements of the characters exactingly. And some places didn't seem to "fit" on the maps anymore, such as Amanthan's residence, and a few others. Any clarification on those would be great. And was that the "gate" to Waterdeep that was used in gameplay? I'm guessing artistic license was again invoked.
Like I said, a great fun way to re-live an already great story and getting a new flavor on things for my upcoming DM session. Was thinking of asking for Ed's "thief's-eye" view of Eveningstar Hall as I'm sure Murtag the thief will be seeing it in due time! But that can hold off for another day.
Thanks again for listening and be well. Hope to see you soon.
R... |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2015 : 19:19:24
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Hi Ed and THO,
After playing Sword Coast Legends (pretty decent game!) I plan on stepping back into the Underdark again. When it comes to drow, we've seen the more or less how cities are when they follow the Way of Lolth, Menzo being our prime example. We have snippets of lore on Guallidurth and Undraeth for example, but I find it surprisingly hard to design a Lolthite city that isn't the "white bread" fare we're used to (ala Menzo).
Do you have general examples or thoughts (without naming specific cities if need be) on how to design the power structure or general theme of a city that follows Lolth but does not adhere to the Way of Lolth?
In regards, to the dwarf-elf crossbreed, has there ever been any drow-dwarf dwelfs?
Thank you both! Hope we find out what the super secret Realms projects are soon! I crave more Realms. :) |
Edited by - Eilserus on 12 Nov 2015 19:53:44 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2015 : 23:29:03
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How about a drow city ruled by a council of drider? The "Orborthae" (sacred spiders) enslaved the matron mothers of their city centuries ago and control them by means of a venom that each female is exposed to at birth and which is only kept in abeyance by an antidote known only to the driders (and involving their blood). Drider form is not seen as a curse, but rather a blessing of Lolth, and all males strive to attain drider form and join the ruling elite. The Orborthae dictate who is to be transformed and when and use the Ustilhar (as the female clerics of the city are known) to effect the transformation.
The "House" system has been debased to reflect groupings surrounding one or more drider, and as is traditional, there is much vicious infighting. Each drider or group of drider have their stable of female priestesses of Lolth and every female is examined for that talent. However the city is not as sophisticated as a traditional Lolthite drow city, and there are open challenges between drider and constant warring and assassinations. Because the drow females do not control the city, there is no check or control on breeding and each drider group fosters and promotes key male drow (who hope to be elevated) as one would use stud cattle.
Lolth revels in the unabashed chaos of the city, provides spells for the females (and even some rare males!) and has "blessed" the city with occasional drider variants of greater power (like Jarlaere "the Twice-Fanged": a massive two headed drider or Arblis "of the Blades": a devilishly swift four-armed drider who wields two swords and two axes and has armoured blades attached to his legs).
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2015 : 05:39:41
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It's always bugged me (pun not intended) that for the drow, being made to resemble their chief goddess is considered a punishment. It's blasphemy to even step on a spider, so how is being made to look like one a punishment and not an honor?
Here's an older idea of mine, shared here a couple years back:
The other day, I thought of a way around the insane/bloodthirsty bit, for driders...
A traitor-priestess.
So you've got this traitor-priestess we'll call Eredrina. No meaning to the name, just pulled it out of thin air.
Eredrina serves Lolth openly, and Vhaeraun secretly, for those unfamiliar with the traitor-priestess concept. She is one day involved with (or does it by herself) the ritual to turn a drow into a drider. With intimate knowledge of the process and more than a little assistance from Vhaeraun, she figures out a way to do it that allows the drider to retain his prior personality. The new drider (we'll call him Peiter ) becomes a priest of Vhaeraun, and he learns that same altered ritual... Give it a few centuries, and you've got a growing population of intelligent, reasoning driders, capable of increasing their numbers.
Or, for a simpler alternative -- a ritual that restores the original personality of a drider. Either way, you get the same end result. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2015 : 06:06:12
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The idea behind the punishment was, originally, that being made a drider did not only change your appearance but also your identity. They were bound physically, mentally and spiritually to the queen of spiders. A drider could never become a priest of Vhaerun back then. It would be like a yochlol going and serving him.
More recently, such "abominations" have been changed within novels and in potential rpg to keep their original personality and mind, so the only punishment is deformity. |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2015 : 18:42:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's always bugged me (pun not intended) that for the drow, being made to resemble their chief goddess is considered a punishment. It's blasphemy to even step on a spider, so how is being made to look like one a punishment and not an honor?
Here's an older idea of mine, shared here a couple years back:
The other day, I thought of a way around the insane/bloodthirsty bit, for driders...
A traitor-priestess.
So you've got this traitor-priestess we'll call Eredrina. No meaning to the name, just pulled it out of thin air.
Eredrina serves Lolth openly, and Vhaeraun secretly, for those unfamiliar with the traitor-priestess concept. She is one day involved with (or does it by herself) the ritual to turn a drow into a drider. With intimate knowledge of the process and more than a little assistance from Vhaeraun, she figures out a way to do it that allows the drider to retain his prior personality. The new drider (we'll call him Peiter ) becomes a priest of Vhaeraun, and he learns that same altered ritual... Give it a few centuries, and you've got a growing population of intelligent, reasoning driders, capable of increasing their numbers.
Or, for a simpler alternative -- a ritual that restores the original personality of a drider. Either way, you get the same end result.
Lolth is chaotic, evil and cruel. Drow's had to find out how to venerate her during crown wars and it seems some misconceptions are still there in many cities. You became drider after the failure in Test of Lolth. In my point of view it is just another test of your loyality which almost all failed. As you have to be pretty powerful (5.level) to be noticed by Her and tried and you can become drider only if you failed to kill your opponent (former close one) but still lives. You recieve new powers and abilities, your form changes to Lolth likness and only thing that is wrong with you is your refusal by others in your city (possibly also Lolth not answering your preyers but that can happen on whim normaly). I believe that if you prove your supremancy and cunning you will find out that Lolth has not forsaken you. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2015 : 18:42:59
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Well, I don't think Araushnee was too happy with looking like a spider either - I always took that as part of her punishement when she became a demon (queen).
Thus, carrying forward, any of her followers that annoyed her will meet with something she herself had as punishment.
As for the whole 'the spider form is scared', I think that falls under the heading of 'church dogma', and is just something that happened over time. We can see in some of the early parts of Elaine's Evermeet novel that early form of worship of 'Drow gods' was VERY different then it is today, and we even still have some ancient evidence of that (I forget the name of that place, and what book it was in - Azulmult, or some-such?)
And since I've always found that 'mortal belief affects reality', and gods themselves change because of their own religions, it makes some sense that Lolth now follows the church dogma about spiders, whether that was her idea or not.
At least, thats how I see it within the canon. I don't really use any of that - as far as I am concerned, IMG being a Drider is reward, but thats homebrew. My own 'Misbegotten Realms' is very little like the canon one. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Nov 2015 18:43:41 |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2015 : 19:48:53
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| Could it be that Lolth sees being made into a Drider as a punishment because she herself was basically turned into one by Corellon? If I recall, she was considered very beautiful before she was cursed. Gaining a deformity like that probably cuts deep into her ego. And maybe she reveres spiders because they are beautiful by themselves, in a way. Her humanoid form is beautiful, but in a different way. However, the half breed blend ruins the beauty of both. Maybe? |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2015 : 20:18:46
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
How about a drow city ruled by a council of drider? The "Orborthae" (sacred spiders) enslaved the matron mothers of their city centuries ago and control them by means of a venom that each female is exposed to at birth and which is only kept in abeyance by an antidote known only to the driders (and involving their blood). Drider form is not seen as a curse, but rather a blessing of Lolth, and all males strive to attain drider form and join the ruling elite. The Orborthae dictate who is to be transformed and when and use the Ustilhar (as the female clerics of the city are known) to effect the transformation.
The "House" system has been debased to reflect groupings surrounding one or more drider, and as is traditional, there is much vicious infighting. Each drider or group of drider have their stable of female priestesses of Lolth and every female is examined for that talent. However the city is not as sophisticated as a traditional Lolthite drow city, and there are open challenges between drider and constant warring and assassinations. Because the drow females do not control the city, there is no check or control on breeding and each drider group fosters and promotes key male drow (who hope to be elevated) as one would use stud cattle.
Lolth revels in the unabashed chaos of the city, provides spells for the females (and even some rare males!) and has "blessed" the city with occasional drider variants of greater power (like Jarlaere "the Twice-Fanged": a massive two headed drider or Arblis "of the Blades": a devilishly swift four-armed drider who wields two swords and two axes and has armoured blades attached to his legs).
-- George Krashos
This is a pretty cool idea George and definitely like it. If the drider use the female priestesses for the transformation, I take it they most likely don't progress in higher level from when they were transformed or very rarely at all due to Lolth's will otherwise they'd perform the transformation process themselves (the ones that are transformed priests)? Would there be drider high priestesses, snakes whips and all? Unless Lolth won't allow drider to cast such spells and the reason behind keeping the female priestesses. Which would make for a kind of nice dirty secret behind the "honored" females who get to do the deed themselves on behalf of the drider council that can't be "bothered" to do it.
Alot to think about and play with. Thank you again sir! |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2015 : 20:21:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's always bugged me (pun not intended) that for the drow, being made to resemble their chief goddess is considered a punishment. It's blasphemy to even step on a spider, so how is being made to look like one a punishment and not an honor?
Here's an older idea of mine, shared here a couple years back:
The other day, I thought of a way around the insane/bloodthirsty bit, for driders...
A traitor-priestess.
So you've got this traitor-priestess we'll call Eredrina. No meaning to the name, just pulled it out of thin air.
Eredrina serves Lolth openly, and Vhaeraun secretly, for those unfamiliar with the traitor-priestess concept. She is one day involved with (or does it by herself) the ritual to turn a drow into a drider. With intimate knowledge of the process and more than a little assistance from Vhaeraun, she figures out a way to do it that allows the drider to retain his prior personality. The new drider (we'll call him Peiter ) becomes a priest of Vhaeraun, and he learns that same altered ritual... Give it a few centuries, and you've got a growing population of intelligent, reasoning driders, capable of increasing their numbers.
Or, for a simpler alternative -- a ritual that restores the original personality of a drider. Either way, you get the same end result.
Lolth is chaotic, evil and cruel. Drow's had to find out how to venerate her during crown wars and it seems some misconceptions are still there in many cities. You became drider after the failure in Test of Lolth. In my point of view it is just another test of your loyality which almost all failed. As you have to be pretty powerful (5.level) to be noticed by Her and tried and you can become drider only if you failed to kill your opponent (former close one) but still lives. You recieve new powers and abilities, your form changes to Lolth likness and only thing that is wrong with you is your refusal by others in your city (possibly also Lolth not answering your preyers but that can happen on whim normaly). I believe that if you prove your supremancy and cunning you will find out that Lolth has not forsaken you.
Makes sense. I was skimming through Servant of the Shard a few nights ago and it stated: "drow don't test for loyalty because they expect none."
It'd be hard to pass a test when you don't really know what loyalty is in the first place, beyond basic survival that is. |
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Evrat
Acolyte
France
45 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2015 : 20:37:01
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Hi I have a question on a old novel : Cormyr
How was the king Draxius (and his previous identities...) ? A good King ? A Despote ? May some one knows about his secret and true identity (after the 1er Wizard of course) ? |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2015 : 04:44:15
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Hi again, all. It's timely you've been discussing drow here, because Ed just handed me a reply for Zoe Bragg-Carbajales, regarding Eilistraee's "stats" as The Masked Lady.
Heeeere's Ed:
Hi, Zoe. First off, this is all unofficial. Yes, it comes from me, the creator of the Realms (including Eilistraee, Vhaeraun, and Mystra), but the first sentence below is there for good reasons…
Mortals in the Realms can rarely know the doings and specifics of the gods with certainty, because clergies and even the gods themselves sometimes avoid the truth, or the whole truth, or slant what they say so much. So it is with the “deaths” of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. Vhaeraun entered Eilistraee’s realm and sought to destroy her, but perished there by her hand, and she subsumed his portfolios—or so the story spread among drow. Most assumed that meant she became the drow deity of thievery, but in truth, Eilistraee (who pronounces her own name “AISLE-iss-try-ee,” by the way) defeated Vhaeraun with Mystra’s indirect aid [Mystra IS the Weave, and it was the Weave that frustrated and drank Vhaeraun’s magics, but augmented those of Eilistraee] but did not slay her brother. Rather, she trapped his sentience within the Weave, leaving him in an “endless dream” engineered by Mystra, who enfolded him. In this dream, Mystra slowly convinced Vhaeraun to cooperate in a pact with herself and Eilistraee so that they could all survive what was to come: the Sundering, wherein both Eilistraee and Mystra would be “slain,” magic would go wild, and the worlds of Abeir and Toril would pass through each other and then be sundered.
Eilistraee emerged from her battle with her brother as The Masked Lady, and fulfilled her own portfolios of song, beauty, dance, swordwork, hunting, moonlight, and those of her brother, too: thievery, trickery, drow poisoners and poisons, drow males, and evil doings in the surface world. The death of Qilué Veladorn robbed her of some of her divine essence for a time (it leaked into the Weave, and only returned to her when Mystra herself recovered and could direct it back to its rightful home), but Eilistraee wasn’t slain, merely reduced to manifestations.
So from the end of 1375 to the summer of 1379, The Masked Lady has her “full” powers, and from late Flamerule of 1379 to the same month in 1489 DR, she is much reduced, being seen by mortals almost exclusively as her manifestation of a moving black mask outlined in a silver radiance and with two eyes of silver flame, that appears and silently guides (by pointing and touching and by imparting visions). After Flamerule 1489, Vhaeraun and Eilistraee are separate deities with the same powers and portfolios they had before 1375, but a new understanding, respect, and even friendship for each other. Some of their followers still war with each other, but the two deities do not. Thus far, Eilistraee’s teachings after the Sundering are the same as before the Sundering.
The Masked Lady: a 9-foot-tall long-legged, graceful, and dancing drow female surrounded by her constantly-swirling long tresses and a swirling black ankle-length cloak, her face always covered by a full-face mask. She has all the abilities, powers, and avatar specifics given in the 3e sourcebook FAITHS AND PANTHEONS, except that what she’s borrowed from Vhaeraun means her avatar does not lose her Extra Domain salient ability, and so retains all the things listed as being lost to her avatar on p25 of F&P. She carries the Moonsword, as noted, and the black cloak she gained from Vhaeraun acts as a second Moonsword (it can transform itself into one, and fly about to attack or aid her or others, as she wills, with her own movement rate and the best possible maneuverability) and can emit magical darkness as she wills, in extent and specifics, up to 90-foot-sphere about itself limits.
The Mask: an always-silent black full-face (brow to chin) mask that can absorb the energy of all spells into itself (including dispel magic) and be augmented thereby, and can heal or impart spells to mortals by touch. The mask can vary in size from as large as an adult drow’s fingernail to as large as huge castle gates, but is usually about double the size of a full-face mask a mortal adult drow might wear. It varies in visibility as Eilistraee wills, its silver radiance waxing or waning as she wills, and also in tangibility, from “not there” to velvety-soft to as hard as adamantine. As the Mask, Eilistraee never speaks, but can write words of fire in the mind of a mortal within 90 feet, and impart vivid and detailed mental visions (still images or “movies”) with the same range.
And there you have it. I hope this is of help in your campaign. As for the future, and Eilistraee? Well, I Do Have Plans...but we'll see. ;}
So saith Ed. Still spinning Realmslore daily, scribes!
love to all,
THO
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2015 : 04:51:54
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Well, this is really interesting. I hope that it sneaks its way into canon Realmslore. Surely it is waaay better than ''The Sundering brought Eilistraee and Vhaeraun back''.
EDIT: I guess that this part:
''After Flamerule 1489, Vhaeraun and Eilistraee are separate deities with the same powers and portfolios they had before 1375, but a new understanding, respect, and even friendship for each other. Some of their followers still war with each other, but the two deities do not. Thus far, Eilistraee’s teachings after the Sundering are the same as before the Sundering.''
is canon, though, given the reply that Ed gave before?
EDIT2: removed lengthy quote, to avoid cluttering. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 14 Nov 2015 18:09:42 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2015 : 05:02:10
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Wow, thanks so much Ed and THO! That is very interesting, and the reference to Eilistraee and the Weave in Spellstorm makes even more sense now. It's good to see the two siblings not fighting so much anymore. I have always been fond of Vhaeraun and Eilistraee. It's good to see them both around again.
And I have been pronouncing her name wrong all this time lol.
So, since Eilistraee is still the Masked Lady, but she and Vhaeraun are now separate deities again, what exactly does this mean for Vhaeraun himself? You mentioned his portfolio is the same as it was befor his "death", but Eilistraee seems to still have some of his qualities. Any chance you could give some similar tidbits on him as well? I know you gave us a little (about him being him the endless dream), but now that he is awake again, so to speak, what's he up to? If Eilistraee can use a mask to appear before her followers, howdoes V communicate with his faithful? |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2015 : 05:05:27
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Wow, thanks so much Ed and THO! That is very interesting, and the reference to Eilistraee and the Weave in Spellstorm makes even more sense now. It's good to see the two siblings not fighting so much anymore. I have always been fond of Vhaeraun and Eilistraee. It's good to see them both around again.
And I have been pronouncing her name wrong all this time lol.
So, since Eilistraee is still the Masked Lady, but she and Vhaeraun are now separate deities again, what exactly does this mean for Vhaeraun himself? You mentioned his portfolio is the same as it was befor his "death", but Eilistraee seems to still have some of his qualities. Any chance you could give some similar tidbits on him as well? I know you gave us a little (about him being him the endless dream), but now that he is awake again, so to speak, what's he up to? If Eilistraee can use a mask to appear before her followers, howdoes V communicate with his faithful?
To my understanding Eilistraee was the ML till the 1489 DR, but now she no longer is. The writeup that Ed provided is in answer to a question specifically asking for the ML's stats. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2015 : 05:09:24
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| I figure it doesn't hurt to ask if similar stats can be provided for Vhaeraun. If she is no longer the ML, then ignore that part lol. It just sounded like she was. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2015 : 05:13:44
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I figure it doesn't hurt to ask if similar stats can be provided for Vhaeraun. If she is no longer the ML, then ignore that part lol. It just sounded like she was.
It seems so to me, since the answer was to a question explictly asking for the ML's stats. Either way, yes, I would like to know more about Vhaeraun's dream, or what happened to Qilué, but that question was NDA a few months ago. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 14 Nov 2015 05:28:57 |
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Bootravsky
Acolyte
USA
10 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2015 : 06:00:19
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Good evening, Mr. Greenwood and Lady THO!
I've been once again reading my battered copy of Forgotten Realms Adventures (for my money the best roleplaying book in existence), and a few questions cropped up:
First off, Tilverton is noted as having extensive deep and dark sewer systems. However, unlike many of the other cities, there is no apparent river or creek system in proximity to the city. What water source does the community use? Is this a city based on aquifers, or deep wells, or something? Aqueducts?
Moving on, Yhaunn, as a port town, obviously has pretty obvious docks and drydocks strung along the waterfonrt. Is the Stiltways located above a slough, or some other area of tidal inundation? Are the poorer residents a few blocks back from the waterfront subject to flooding during storm surges? Also, as Yhaunn is located in an old quarry, are there creeks that run down the perimeter to provide fresh water or for bathing?
Urmlaspyr, Yhaunn, and Westgate are roughly the same size, but the maps in FRA indicate that Urmlaspyr and Yhaunn have much tighter streets and smaller blocks. Does Westgate have larger streets through which mercenary armies may move with impunity? Yhaunn is definitely a tightly crowded community. Is this a matter where the castles of the merchant families of Westgate so dominant, that the poorer hovels are essentially transient and not marked on the maps?
Finally, I was reading through Lands of Intrigue,and was noting a peculiarity: there appears to be a disconnect between the maps and the apparent populations. Myratma and Zazesspur both have fairly simple road layouts, without the complexity of alleyways that would be expected. Was this a matter of cartographic simplification, or do cities along the southern Sword Coast simply have greater masses of humanity, with enormous tenement complexes?
Thank you for indulging my curiosity regarding the layout and structures of the Realms! |
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Questions for Ed Greenwood (2015)
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