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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Oct 2014 : 12:19:36
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Dear sages,
The books suggest that the High Forest elven kingdom of Eaerlann and the mighty dwarven kingdom of Ammarindar both fell in the Year of the Curse, 882 DR. Apparently, in this year Ascal's Horn (later known as Ascalhorn/ Hellgate Keep) was taken over by demons, and the realms' cities were abandoned, like the Eaerlanni cities of Elven Port (Aerendal?) and the capital Teuveamanthaar.
My question is: it all happened within the same year? I know Ascal's Horn was being corrupted through many years, including the summoning of devils, spellcasters accepting undeath, and so on, but I think that after the big invasion the powerful kingdoms would be able to resist for a few years, no? Even if demons were loose and with their full gate abilities.
I say that because the Harpers installed wards that prevent greater demons from leaving the city and from using their gate powers only four years later - and it must have been a master's move, to attract all the major demons to the city and put the wards to work (worth a very nice novel - *hint*).
Then, I think there should be some resistance within the cities at least until this containment was placed, don't you agree? Specially in Teuveamanthaar, I think, since the druids kept part of the city protected afterwards; IMHO, the city was probably taken gradually, in a few years, right? What do you think, or who should I ask to know more details about this story?
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"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2014 : 12:54:53
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'My opinion'
I think it was taken over gradually by Devils, who are slow and methodical planners (usually), and it would have happened over time, without people noticing (being very smart, they knew if they were found-out early they could be easily stopped by the magically-powerful humans and Elves). This was started by Wulgreth (see Savage Frontier), and as the first devils (secretly) brought-in more devils, more and more spellcasters and parts of the city would have fallen under their influence.
Unfortunately, they WERE found out (once again, see Savage Frontier) and Demons were summoned to stop the Devils - an incredibly stupid maneuver. The devils were indeed stopped, and replaced by something far worse. This is when it all came to a head, in 882 DR.
So, we had two things going on - most of the city's protective magics were either already thwarted by the devils, or were then purposely circumvented by the panicking wizards who summoned demons. Thus, the city's decline was indeed gradual, but not in the way modern scholars think, most of whom are unaware of the devil's early involvement. This has actually caused much consternation and bickering in intellectual circles, because sages know demons aren't long-term planners, and the city seems to have been taken far too quickly and easily (the exact problem you bring up).
People who know the true history of what happened there - personages such as Elminster, Khelben, and the elves - do not really discuss such matters, especially with self-proclaimed 'scholars' who have "lived less years then a halfling takes for breakfast" (as Elminster puts it), "and have gleaned all their knowledge from tomes written by other human scholars who also weren't there, and are only guessing as to what happened."
The stuff I said about the demons and devils is all canon - I just spun it all in such a way to make seem more logical (in regards to your question). So yes, not 100% canon, but firmly rooted in it. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 31 Oct 2014 12:57:27 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2014 : 14:19:27
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It looks like the elves of Eaerlann were already taking part in The Retreat before 882 DR so they were very much depleted before the demons erupted from Ascalhorn.
Wulgreth began summoning devils in 820 DR and bested 6 of his rivals before the remainder began summoning demons in 880 DR (under influence from the fey'ri). It appears the demon summoning plan worked all to well. Probably because the fey'ri taught the naive humans how to call Grintharke (a balor) who then wiped the floor with the devils and summoned hordes of demons for two full years before they spilled out into the rest of the north.
It looks like the fey'ri gave themselves away and the elves of Eaerlann imprisoned them for their troubles before abandoning Eaerlann wholesale to go to Evermeet and in some cases Ardeep.
The demon hordes then attacked Ammarindar and numerous other holds all over the Savage Frontier. Poor Ammarindar was taken by surprise it would seem and perished because of it.
I think the elves of Eaerlann gave up. They had tried to help the humans, gave them a place to stay, taught them the proper use of magic and still the humans turned to evil and stupid uses of the Art. The humans were supposed to help the elves keep the North safe, but instead they caused its destruction and so the elves cleaned up their own mess (the fey'ri) and then held up their hands and said "well its your mess, you deal with it".
I guess the dwarves of Ammarindar were one of the unfortunate casualties of war.
What is weird is that the demons rampaged across much of the Savage Frontier; they attacked the house of Stone, Eaerlann, and Ammarindar, and then they suddenly ran out of steam and then they all seemingly went back to Hellgate Keep and waited for the Harpers to trap them inside and prevent them from using their gate spells.
882 DR is the fall of Ascalhorn, Ammarindar and Eaerlann.
883 DR an eddy of magical chaos creates those ants in the hall of mists beneath the grandfather tree
886 DR the harpers create wards around Hellgate Keep to stop them using their gate.
A veritable army of demons annihilated Ammarindar and then carted much of its wealth back to Hellgate Keep. What was to stop them from heading west to the sea and Ardeep Forest. What was to stop them heading south and East to Cormanthor.
Even one escaped demon can summon many of its allies (i know the number isnt infinite because not all demons like each other and will want favours for being called), but we have seen with the Trio Nefarious what a couple of high powered fiends can do to a region if left unchecked. In myth drannor the elves killed the highest level fiends and the rest got mopped up shortly after, but in the North the big nations got killed so what was left to sort out the demons.
Waterdeep didnt exist (it was Nimoar's Hold - so probably a small keep on a hill).
Silverymoon exists but probably wasnt as big as it is now and it is just one city against a horde that destroyed two nations.
The dwarves of Delzoun existed as isolated surface settlement (felbarr, adbar, House of Stone, Sundabar) since Delzoun fell -100 DR.
So
1) Where did all the demon hordes go?
2) If all the demon hordes returned to Hellgate Keep then why?
3) Why did the powerful demons remain in Hellgate Keep to be bound in place by the Harpers? |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2014 : 16:56:35
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I suspect the answer is a lot more complicated than a single book can convey.
A trilogy would do...    |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2014 : 17:05:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
'My opinion'
I think it was taken over gradually by Devils, who are slow and methodical planners (usually), and it would have happened over time, without people noticing (being very smart, they knew if they were found-out early they could be easily stopped by the magically-powerful humans and Elves). This was started by Wulgreth (see Savage Frontier), and as the first devils (secretly) brought-in more devils, more and more spellcasters and parts of the city would have fallen under their influence.
Unfortunately, they WERE found out (once again, see Savage Frontier) and Demons were summoned to stop the Devils - an incredibly stupid maneuver. The devils were indeed stopped, and replaced by something far worse. This is when it all came to a head, in 882 DR.
I see what happened in the city, but my question was more if the wave of demons was strong enough to empty all the cities of the elf and dwarf realms in the same year, or if after this great blow the elven and dwarven cities in which the devils and demons weren't already present were decimated or had their population fleeing in but one year. I see at least some bastions of resistance, like portions of Teuveamanthaar, resisting and having a bit of their original population, until they finally give up and leave, but the date of 882 DR as a mark. Or maybe the elves and dwarves left their millenia-old cities after some months of lower planar harassment, I don't know.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The stuff I said about the demons and devils is all canon - I just spun it all in such a way to make seem more logical (in regards to your question). So yes, not 100% canon, but firmly rooted in it.
I know, and this was a great job! |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 31 Oct 2014 17:18:21 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31777 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2014 : 03:54:23
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I've been tweaking the tidbits surrounding the fall of Eaerlann for an upcoming campaign.
Nothing too specific, yet, but it does tie in nicely with a few odd bits Steven Schend shared with us a few years back when he was thinking about the same as well.
I'll post more as I come up with it... if you're interested in further opinions on this. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2014 : 04:46:49
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Patience is a virtue.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2014 : 12:54:00
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Patience is a virtue.
-- George Krashos
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2014 : 02:52:57
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
(...)
I'll post more as I come up with it... if you're interested in further opinions on this.
Sure I am!!! |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1715 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2014 : 03:46:56
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
What an interesting idea for a massive project ...
;-)
--Eric
I think Eric & George need to take "how to tease" lessons from the Hooded One; they're a tad off their game here.
Steven
who knows something you don't know |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Fall of Eaerlann and Ammarindar
