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mhamza
Seeker
United Kingdom
73 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Sep 2014 : 00:17:57
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This may sound like a stupid question considering the infamy of the Blackguard but I'm wondering if its possible for a Blackguard to not be evil and accept the power of a dark patron. Some will argue what's the point of the blackguard accepting the power but surely there has to be some who only do so due to bad circumstances or are tricked into it.
Thoughts?
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Edited by - mhamza on 05 Sep 2014 00:21:12
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2014 : 00:48:51
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Yes and no? Seeking/accepting power from a dark patron: sure. Non-evil blackguard: I don't see it, personally.
My reading/thinking leads me to think that blackguards are evil to the same extent that paladins are good. If a paladin deviates to another alignment, whether deliberately or not, some/all paladin abilities are lost. The same should logically be true for blackguard, given the fact that it's written to be a dark reflection of a paladin.
You could of course create another class that's loosely based on blackguard (or on warlock, if you're thinking of pacts with nondivine entities) but lacks the anti-paladin facet, and that would free you up to give it other interesting abilities.
Just my thoughts. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2014 : 02:04:01
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The obverse question would be:
Are all Paladins Lawful Good?
Could not a paladin enjoy all the benefits of the class, and even serve a LG deity, without actually being LG himself? Would Tyr or Lathander accept non-Good or non-Lawful paladins, indeed would they accept Chaotic or Evil paladins?
My initial response would be a resounding *no* - it seems to invite the abuse of obvious powergaming munchkin madness at first glance. But such characters might have a valid, interesting, and complex relationship with their deity - they could be good stuff for skilled authors and roleplayers to build upon. Depends on whether the focus is the characters powers, deity, or situation. A slippery slope though, easily led astray by blurry morals and opportunistic ethics. |
[/Ayrik] |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2014 : 03:41:27
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Some are just misunderstood.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2014 : 05:04:31
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The EBERRON setting has gone to great lengths to portray these kind of classes outside the "typical alignment conception" that we all mostly think of with respect to how they should function in our campaigns.
I'd recommend seeking info on the Wizards website -- especially those articles detailing alignment in EBERRON -- for more on this. |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2014 : 10:36:14
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Well, it really depends if how you have in your game?
The Final Fantasy games have an interesting take on this, with the Dark Knight class, who was based on the old Anti-Paladin class. When the class first appeared in it's todays form, in Final Fantasy IV(called II originaly in USA), the main hero, Cecil started out as one. He was forced to do some pretty evil stuff by his king, even if he didn't want, he done so out his loyality. Out of the same reason, he became a Dark Knight, as the king asked him to do so. Althrough later in the game, and in the series, it's shown that Dark Knights aren't always evil.
Based loosely on the above example of Cecil, you could roleplay a Blackuard similary, Evil, but bordering on neutral, and being forced to do horrible things, for a good reason. The Sage's advice about Eberron articles on aligments, would be also priceless.
If you want a good, or neutral Blackguard, well it's as
as Ayrik wrote, are all Paladins Lawful Good in your campaign?
Or is it like 4e where the Paladin and Blackguard can be technicaly of any aligment?
If one would go a way where Paladins are allways good, where and how one fits a non-evil Blackguard?
Maybe you coud have a risen Fiend, or Arch-Fiend, giving his powers to people with a strong vice, that prevents them from being paladins, but still have enough of goodness in themselves to not fall into malice?
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2014 : 14:08:29
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| It sounds like a pretty interesting concept Baltas and would make fora good novels or two I am sure. |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2014 : 18:18:26
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| Haha, thanks, I like more rare situations with aligments, and the concept of risen fiends seems just terribly underused. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2014 : 01:11:37
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I am just old school. To me a paladin is a paragon of LG alignment, order and goodness are his meat and drink, he is (or at least should strive to be) an example to inspire others, his peculiar mix of special class abilities are designed specifically for him to help and heal the trampled underdog, to smite unholy abominations back to the foul pits from which they spawned.
So, to me, the notion of any-alignment paladin just isnt workable. For much the same reason we never see Chaotic Good executioners or tax collectors. A paladin and an anti-paladin are easy enough to envision, more is meh. Why must there be a complete set, each one designed to fit perfectly within an arbitrary 9-peg alignment system? Why not also have 9 flavours of differently-aligned druids? Perhaps a bunch of lawful-aligned barbarians and good-aligned assassins? I know it can be done, it has been done, but I dont agree that it should be done.
A misaligned paladin (of whatever variety) will have difficult relationships with his peers, they will champion differing causes for differing reasons, many will carry this difference to extremes. This demi-paladin will also encounter problems with his deity (and deitys church or clergy or lay followers) because, again, they will have differing emphasis and priorities. The prototypical (LG) paladin must atone and quest and prove his worthiness anew for comparatively minor transgressions or faltering faith - imagine the reaction from failing to properly and unquestioningly enforce Banes tryannical laws, for example? |
[/Ayrik] |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2014 : 01:45:16
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Even within the confines of "Lawful Good" there is a lot of variation. Some emphasize the law more than others, some focus on the good to a greater or lesser extent. Some supposedly LG individuals and organizations are tyrannical and oppressive regardless of how benevolent they see themselves as being, and they are clearly Evil from the outside... and maybe the only reason they're not recognized as Evil from within is that the people in those organizations and societies are brainwashed.
There might not be an objective definition of Good/Evil or Lawful/Chaotic in some campaigns or situations. From that standpoint, maybe the "true" alignment of the paladin and blackguard can be a little bit blurry.
For example, I can easily see a paladin of Amaunator being LE, no matter how LG he claims to be. |
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mhamza
Seeker
United Kingdom
73 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2014 : 21:28:04
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| Thought I should just clarify a bit, I don't mean Blackguards in service to dark deities, since they are definitely evil, I mean Blackguards who serve demons and devils, wouldn't there be some who aren't evil, having instead accepted the mantle of a Blackguard due to being tricked into it, or out of desperation, kinda like a warlock, only in this case with more emphasis on battle and not spells. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2014 : 21:51:17
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Imbrar Helitharn, the fallen king of Impiltur, comes to mind. So I would say this category of blackguard definitely exists. I'm not so sure about non-evil alignments, though. I think alignment should be determined by philosophy, so if one believes in the "right-ness" of what he's doing, thus having no regrets, even if he's charmed into it, then it follows that his actions are indicative of his alignment. In cases of charm, alignment might change when the charm is broken. If not... if he's just doing what he's told because he doesn't want to face the consequences of disobedience, then his alignment might be different than his actions suggest, but that still leaves me in the position of believing that blackguards (because they're written as the opposite of paladins) are evil, and if he's not evil then he's not a blackguard. Which suggests making a knight class which can be tied to principles/priorities instead of alignment. This would avoid the situation Ayrik mentioned of having 9 different paladin classes. Just one class, which is dedicated to certain principles. Any alignment is possible because each individual champions a set of principles (chosen by the player; some are good, some are evil). Anyway, that goes off on a tangent.
Not sure if you're familiar with the original Neverwinter Nights game, but Aribeth comes to mind as "tricked" into serving evil. I don't think the trickery was enough, though. I think, if we put it into actual D&D terms, she was tricked into forsaking her faith in Tyr, lost her paladin abilities at that point, then was charmed, and became a blackguard under the influence of the charm.
Bottom line: I don't think one is tricked into genuinely serving evil. Either one is evil and therefore can be a blackguard, or one isn't evil and therefore cannot be a blackguard. Just my opinion, though.
Edit: Imbrar Helitharn is described on pages 139-140 of Champions of Ruin. |
Edited by - xaeyruudh on 08 Sep 2014 21:52:06 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2014 : 02:43:35
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Imbrar rose as death knight and has only a few, very scattered recollections of his mortal life. He recalls that he was a ruler, fell in battle (that recollection now twisted by Soneillon to attach the thought "by treachery" to it) and had no wife or children. His blackguard sttaus is a reflection of gaming stats, not in any way an insight into what he is like as an individual or what motivates him.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2014 : 04:01:37
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| Ah, I see. He's not so relevant to this then. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2014 : 14:36:02
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quote:
Originally posted by mhamza
This may sound like a stupid question considering the infamy of the Blackguard but I'm wondering if its possible for a Blackguard to not be evil and accept the power of a dark patron. Some will argue what's the point of the blackguard accepting the power but surely there has to be some who only do so due to bad circumstances or are tricked into it.
Thoughts?
Sorta depends. Mechanically speaking it comes down to which edition your using. In 3E they're required to be evil, while in 4E the Blackguard was either Unaligned (meaning middle of the road) or Evil. If you're talking about flavor, I think there's a lot more room to wiggle. If they're like the Paladin, they don't necessarily derive their power from deities but more or less their resolute outlook on the world. A Paladin, in 3E, gains power through faith of self except in the Forgotten Realms where he MUST choose a divine patron.
So if your beholden to that rule of Must use a FR deity then I'd say that a Blackguard could be something like Lawful Neutral and gain his powers from Bane because Bane is all about military power and strength and dominance. Tyranny is an aspect he loves too, but you don't have to be a ruthless tyrant to keep Bane's favor, just be the one who's strive for the seat of power. A LN Banite Blackguard uses the laws of the land to empower himself. And if the laws aren't suiting his purposes, he fights to change the laws for him to do so.
Now you can also just throw Alignment all out the window and say that he's in it for greed, taking the powers handed by whichever deity is willing with NO intention of actually doing what the deity wills. And if the power is bestowed upon such a person and he goes against said deity, it could make for a really cool concept in terms of RP and having monsters and the deities minions chase after such a character. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11809 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2014 : 00:20:05
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| One thing to note is that the Paladin in 5e can be a paladin who takes an Oath of Vengeance, and from the description, they could easily be "blackguardish". |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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lordsknight185
Learned Scribe
USA
100 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2014 : 07:24:24
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
One thing to note is that the Paladin in 5e can be a paladin who takes an Oath of Vengeance, and from the description, they could easily be "blackguardish".
Nope. Oath of Vengeance is all Avenger class from 4e (Think De Bie's Shadowbane) but an older NEXT Playtest did have the Blackguard oath, which I expect to see in a future suppliment for 5e. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2020 : 22:04:13
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Seeker mhamza,
You have, good sir, asked an absolutely fantastic question!
I've argued for a long time, and I implement the vision I am about to articulate to you in my campaigns, that alignment is an overly vague, amazingly over simplified tool meant to simplify arguably, the most complicated field of philosophy: ethics.
The brass tacks of the example you give, and how it is played out in game, is: it depends.
What ethic (a set of moral principles, especially ones relating to or affirming a specified group, field, or form of conduct) is it that you utilize? What ethic has the character you are playing acculturated to from his society, or in other words, what are his societies values/mores? The reality is that while someone doesn't have to accept any, or even all, of a societies ethics, they'll know what they are, as they've been compelled to at least interact with them, even if they disagree. It's a set of rules for conduct. Looking at what those rules are, and perhaps what rules your character is identified as following, is critical to answer the question you posed.
A quick, easy to wrap your mind around example regarding ethics is taken from the Crusades. A simplified look can tell you that two opponents of one another were the Christians (Catholics) and the Muslims (Islam). As many battles were fought between the two, both sides in hyperbole would debree the other to be "evil!" So, we hear that both are evil then, from an outsiders perspective, while only half of the field is evil when taking one side over the other.
Without going into an endlessly exhaustive (and for this site, inappropriate) detailing of the modeling of religious ethics, i.e. deontology, Kantianism, and divine command theory (sort of), to name a few you can research if you so choose to do so, an ethic is going to lay out the rules by which we guide, inform, and make moral decisions by.
So, in answering whether "...its possible for a Blackguard to not be evil and accept the power of a dark patron", I would argue that the answer is yes and no. It depends on who you're asking, and how they perceive your characters actions. So, it is a great opportunity for both players and DM's to go over some basic reading on ethics models in order to better understand how and why people's viewpoints can be so different, and in the end, cause people to be at odds and in league with one another. :)
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by mhamza
This may sound like a stupid question considering the infamy of the Blackguard but I'm wondering if its possible for a Blackguard to not be evil and accept the power of a dark patron. Some will argue what's the point of the blackguard accepting the power but surely there has to be some who only do so due to bad circumstances or are tricked into it.
Thoughts?
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Are all Blackguards evil?
