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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Aug 2014 : 14:52:18
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Tiamat is a Goddess/Superdragon with the heads of the Five Main Chromatic Dragons, usually. Black, Blue, Green, Red, and White. Also LE, usually.
The Reverse Tiamat, Male or Female, is a Deity/Superdragon with the heads of a Brass, Bronze, Copper, Gold, and Silver dragon. Usually CG.
My question is, have you used the Reverse Tiamat in a campaign? How and in what why?
Also what would be the Reverse Bahamut? Cause I can't see it.
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Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2014 : 18:25:56
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I wouldn't go for that approach, because just making a copy like that is not an approach I still like. I liked the idea a long time ago, back when I first started getting into D&D and had vague thoughts of making my own world, but I've since changed my opinion on it.
I did play with a similar idea for a while, though. A gigantic, three-headed dragon, kind of a greyish color (body and all three heads). This dragon was much bigger than even a great wyrm, and had two sets of wings.
I never really got much further than that, and eventually abandoned the idea. I've not even thought of that in ages... |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2014 : 19:04:20
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| No haven't used anything like that. I'm sort of 50/50 on the idea. The approach is a bit too obvious but has merit depending on what you want to do with it (like the mirror universe idea). Some players would enjoy the irony I think. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2014 : 23:19:53
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My inclination is against such a beast.
Tiamat is a creature of Chaos. Five heads (who probably snap and snipe at each other constantly if there isnt an external target for them to vent against) and their breath weapons and their spells and the usual big-mean-dragon-stomping-and-clawing-everything-in-range ... it seems like chaos to me, represented in fine form. It has five appetites, is enraged five times over, you can expect to be shredded apart by a whole pack of dragonteeth as they ravenously fight over the biggest chunks of your corpse. I kinda imagine Tiamat as an angry, hungry, territorial, multi-headed hyena dragon.
Bahamut has just one head. But he is typically surrounded by a number of other magnificent dragons and can always summon more when needed. This seems more in line with a Lawful creature, cooperative, disciplined, orderly, harmonious. Not just roaring (like in the cartoon!) and splaying five deadly breath weapons in every direction. Bahamut can execute strategy and tactics and manuevers, he can use maximum force or he can use measured force, he has the ability to define the terms of combat. And only after discarding communication and other non-combat options.
A monocranial Tiamat seems like nothing more exciting than yet another rainbow-hued megadragon. A disappointing one, too, since she has no horde.
While Bahamupentad seems unoriginal, just a metal-plated copy of something else. And I think he loses a lot of his advantage by trading in a small horde of allies for a few extra heads. I admit that a mega-wise five-headed being can be impressive (perhaps each of his heads is General of an army of dragons?), but he seems to do well as is.
I confess some bias towards dragon archetypes and their symbology, outside of D&D adaptations. |
[/Ayrik] |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2014 : 23:21:04
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I liked how Dahak was presented in the 1st Edition Legends and Lore, as a three headed chaotic evil dragon god of destruction, although I don't think anyone really did much with D&D Dahak in the years that followed.
I also liked the Ferrous Dragons from 3rd edition era Dragon Magazine, and their equivalent of Tiamat and Bahamut, Gruaghlothor. I even wrote a piece on adapting that family of dragons to Faerun back in the day.
http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9408
I vaguely remember a reference to Tiamat's sister in Dragon Magazine, mentioning her as the creator of Orange, Purple, and Yellow dragons, but I don't know if this sister ever was given a proper name. As far as I know, she was never referenced outside of the Dragon Magazine article detailing those new dragon types, but I would imagine that she would have the corresponding heads of the dragon types that she created.
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2014 : 23:38:45
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Well, better then Bizzaro Tiamat... the Chromatic Ass Dragon with the five asses of the Chromatic Dragons which can use their Fart Weapon to shoot out Fire, Acid, Lightning, Frost and Really Really Poisonous Gas.
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Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2014 : 02:43:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
Well, better then Bizzaro Tiamat... the Chromatic Ass Dragon with the five asses of the Chromatic Dragons which can use their Fart Weapon to shoot out Fire, Acid, Lightning, Frost and Really Really Poisonous Gas.
Would that be dragon ass...or draggin' ass? |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2014 : 03:17:13
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| "And then I said to her, 'my dear lady, after that many polymorphs, you'd be "dragon," too!'" |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2014 : 05:40:07
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| wtf are you all talking about? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2014 : 12:37:37
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quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
wtf are you all talking about?
I'm not sure anyone knows, at this point. Me, I'm wondering how many people will recognize the line I quoted. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2014 : 20:01:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I wouldn't go for that approach, because just making a copy like that is not an approach I still like. I liked the idea a long time ago, back when I first started getting into D&D and had vague thoughts of making my own world, but I've since changed my opinion on it.
I did play with a similar idea for a while, though. A gigantic, three-headed dragon, kind of a greyish color (body and all three heads). This dragon was much bigger than even a great wyrm, and had two sets of wings.
I never really got much further than that, and eventually abandoned the idea. I've not even thought of that in ages...
That sounds like The Great One - god of all dragons from old D&D. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2014 : 20:04:02
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I liked how Dahak was presented in the 1st Edition Legends and Lore, as a three headed chaotic evil dragon god of destruction, although I don't think anyone really did much with D&D Dahak in the years that followed.
I also liked the Ferrous Dragons from 3rd edition era Dragon Magazine, and their equivalent of Tiamat and Bahamut, Gruaghlothor. I even wrote a piece on adapting that family of dragons to Faerun back in the day.
http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9408
I vaguely remember a reference to Tiamat's sister in Dragon Magazine, mentioning her as the creator of Orange, Purple, and Yellow dragons, but I don't know if this sister ever was given a proper name. As far as I know, she was never referenced outside of the Dragon Magazine article detailing those new dragon types, but I would imagine that she would have the corresponding heads of the dragon types that she created.
That was one of the re-hashes done to update things. The Ferrous Dragons are from a much older Dragon Mag. Article. Dragon-dex will know exactly which. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2014 : 20:05:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
wtf are you all talking about?
I'm not sure anyone knows, at this point. Me, I'm wondering how many people will recognize the line I quoted.
Can't place it Wooly, but it sounds like an Ed line. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2014 : 20:22:14
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This is a bit of an aside, but I'll put it since it kinda fits. I am still fond of the old archetypal dragons. The Great One, Ruler of ALL dragons (looks like a titanic gray Three Headed Dragon that glows so brightly it hurts mortals eyes - male); Diamond, The Star Dragon, Ruler of LAWFUL dragons (looks like a gold dragon but has scales like a crystal dragon - male); Opal, The Sun Dragon, Ruler of NEUTRAL Dragons (Huge pearly white scaled dragon with thousands of colored specs all over - like an opal :P - female); Pearl, The Moon Dragon, Ruler of all CHAOTIC dragons (huge dragon mother of pearl white dragon, but scales are iridescent and constantly shifting reflecting her chaotic nature - female).
I liked dividing up the dragons by their Lawful to Chaotic natures instead of their Good to Evil natures. I think this is often overlooked. There is as much difference between Lawful Good and Chaotic Good / Lawful Evil and Chaotic Evil. I think with the Platinum VS. Chromatic, too many are not represented. There is no neutrality there. And the good chaotics? the Lawful Evils? I understand the diametrically opposed archetypes but in my book it leaves a lot to be desired. I definitely think that there should be a 3rd archetype for this system made... a neutral one for the gem dragons... |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2014 : 21:28:55
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| I use Tiamat as a force of Godly Creation (as in our own worlds mythology) and so she isn't simply "evil" so much as she is elemental. I don't like to use Bahamut at all...I use Marduk as the opposition to Tiamat. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2014 : 15:28:35
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| Well, it's related to this topic, I once had an idea that Tiamat and Bahamut are always opposite. Bahamut is in this idea Apsu(largely taking here inspiration from Pathfinder), and at first it was Tiamat that was more benevolent one. Now it's just such moment of their eons long cycles of alignment shift, that Tiamat is evil, and Bahamut good. In some time, both will become neutral(LN vs CN), and later, Bahamut will be malevolent, and Tiamat benevolent, with this conception. |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2014 : 04:41:11
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I don't know about a reverse Tiamat, but I have created a new Dragon god: Pentagargarous NE using the 3 Dragons found in Dragon Compendium and the Yellow Dragon in the Faerun Monster book: , in order from the Left to right heads: Yellow, Orange, Purple, Grey(homemade-trying to get the right mix of white/black dragon ability- very dedicated to the Weave mentality), Brown. Starting a new dragon war between the chromatics with the metallic trying to mitigate the damage.
Was imprisoned in an dimensional prison or under imprisonment in the lower planes. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2014 : 10:50:42
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Everyone forgets poor Falazure.
Actually, everyone forgets the dragon gods that aren't Tiamat and Bahamut. Miss Manycolours and the Blowhard are as boring and overdone as Mystra and Asmodeus now. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2014 : 13:30:34
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The problem is, when you are creating an 'opposite', you have think about ALL the points, not just the ones you want. Ergo, the opposite of a multi-headed dragon (chaotic, argumentative) would be a single-headed (level-headed) amalgam of the 'good' dragons.
It all depends upon how you look at things.
Also, both could work, since D&D's alignment work-across two axis, not one. Thus, you could have four different 'super' dragons. Your opposite could be the Chaotic Good version, whilst mine could be the Lawful Good version. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2014 : 19:34:25
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Are the draconic pantheon and the okothian sarruhk deities linked somehow? The world serpant myth might have influenced the formation of a multiheaded dragon god, as the world serpant could have been depicted as a multiheaded snake.
At least it had two heads, and we know how dragon egos tend to lead to exaggeration (and probably their myths as well), so 'their' god had five. |
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The Reverse Tiamat
