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BenN
Senior Scribe
Japan
382 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Aug 2014 : 13:19:08
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Naed! Farruk! Hrast it! Oh, tluin!
I enjoy many of the Realms novels a great deal, and one of the things that adds colour to the Realms, and life to the characters, is the imaginative swearing & cursing that erupts from some of the protagonists, especially the more earthy ones like Mirt. A few thoughts:
Some authors seem to use swearing & cursing more than others (Ed seems to be prolific!); I wonder why this is?
Also, many of these curses seem to be used mostly by humans. Are they human in origin? If so, what words or phrases do other races use? I can imagine dwarves being earthy & inventive, orcs crude, halflings taunting, and elven cold disdain of an adversary's ancestry ("Grey!" is apparently a deadly insult to a moon elf).
Another factor in thinking about how PCs & NPCs would express themselves in the Realms is to consider human history in the real world; in the middle ages, phrases about bodily functions were much less shocking than now; rather, "God's blood!" or "God's bones!" were considered much more shocking & blasphemous. In the multi-deity world of the Realms, what words or phrases would/could people use for maximum effect?
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11984 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2014 : 13:55:50
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| Comparing people to various bodily excrements is usually a good standard. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36868 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2014 : 14:44:41
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I actually have an issue with some of the Realms profanity Ed has given us... I know it's his world and all, but his profanity doesn't work for me.
At least in American English, the most common swears are all one syllable and flow readily from the tongue, in one short, sharp, sweet utterance. Tluin and hrast, by contrast, do not flow any kind of readily, and the effort of vocalizing the discordant sounds basically adds a second syllable.
On a similar note, there are a lot of words in the English language that originally had a more difficult spelling or pronunciation, but evolved into something easier to say. The military rank Colonel is pronounced the same as a unit of corn: kernel. Why? Well, if you take the effort to enunciate the syllables properly, but do it quickly, the two words do wind up sounding the same.
And when a situation causes someone to reach for profanity, they're normally just trying to get the words out -- proper elocution is not a concern if you've just dropped an anvil on your toe or groined yourself with your flail.
So to me, it would make more sense if the words originated as tluin and hrast, but eventually became truin or tuin or even luin, and hrast became rast or rhast. Naed is fine, but farruk would eventually become fark. Stlarn would become starn or slarn.
Anyway, that's my thinking on Ed's profanity. No disrespect to him intended, of course. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1879 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2014 : 18:30:51
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| I with Wooley on this one, Ed's curse words are tongue-twisters and a bit nonsensical. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2014 : 20:50:30
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I think it comes down to Ed's (perceived by me) way of making Realms languages be anglic-sounding-but-not-quite, which is something founded in our fantasy tradition that probably inspired him from the start.
I'm pretty sure many English speakers would think some insults in my native language (Portuguese) are mouthfuls, and somewhat difficult to sound out, and our languages have common ancestors in Proto-Indo-European, and more recently, Latin.
It's not a rule that swear words (even those used in exclamations) need to be monosyllabic, either.
...I'm somewhat wary of giving examples.  |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 10 Aug 2014 20:53:08 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4692 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2014 : 21:45:12
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| One thing I read a few years ago that cursing in Arabic was far more descriptive and involved then cruses by Christians. In fairness it was a novel in which a character known both languages was able to be more inventive (it appears) with Arabic. It part I would suspect the full impact of a swearing or cursing could only be fully understood if you live in the Realms, even then an orc might not care much about what an elf or human says. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36868 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 00:55:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
I think it comes down to Ed's (perceived by me) way of making Realms languages be anglic-sounding-but-not-quite, which is something founded in our fantasy tradition that probably inspired him from the start.
I'm pretty sure many English speakers would think some insults in my native language (Portuguese) are mouthfuls, and somewhat difficult to sound out, and our languages have common ancestors in Proto-Indo-European, and more recently, Latin.
It's not a rule that swear words (even those used in exclamations) need to be monosyllabic, either.
...I'm somewhat wary of giving examples.
I didn't say it was a rule, and I admitted that my opinion was based on my knowledge of American English... And compared to the quick and easy exhalations that form most American profanity, tluin and stlarn are just flat-out awkward.
The little bit of Spanish profanity I know involves more syllables, but it still flows more naturally than tluin or hrast.
That's my biggest issue with the Realms profanity: not the number of syllables, but the fact that it just doesn't flow as readily. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6680 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 08:49:57
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I struggle with 'stlarn' - given it's a made up word, don't really see a need for the 'l'. 'Tluin' is pretty much in the same category. Then again, if the Realms has places like Heliogabalus and surnames like Pwent, anything goes.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 11 Aug 2014 08:50:38 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 13:49:19
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I've never been a big fan of made up words to be used as profanity. It's usually very hard to do and pull off well in a way that is understandable by the people listening or reading. It's not impossible, it's just hard to do well in a way that feels like it works.
To me, in my Realms at least, I use terms and phrases that can be understood contextually as profanity. I also make heavy use of racial slurs, which I think fall roughly into the same category. When I use made up words it's almost always very specific to a culture or a language that is most often spoken. For example, it works better if it's a made up word that happens to be Elvish, but translates to an obvious profanity in the common tongue.
Some examples of common profanities:
"By Umberlee's Salty Trench!" or "By the Bitch Queen's Salt!" - Common profanities heard along the Sword Coast by sailors. The first is usually considered more profane, and the second less so. The word "by" is often dropped in actual use. It is used as an exclamation of shock, horror, and amusement much the same way someone in modern American English might say "Holy Sh*t!"
"Tymora's Tits!" - Common profanity used throughout Faerun, particularly throughout the Heartlands. Used in the same context that we might use "F*ck!" or "Sh*t!" in modern American English.
"Orc Gobbler!" or "Go Gobble an Orc!" - A common insult that is used throughout Faerun, particularly in the North. It is considered highly offensive, and it's basically either telling or claiming that the person it's hurled at that they suck Orc penises. It's considered highly offensive because Orcs are considered filthy savage beasts. It would illicit a similar reaction as someone accusing you of engaging in sex with animals. Used in a similar context in which we might use "C*cksucker", "Motherf*cker", or "C*nt" in modern American English.
"Smoke and Ashes!" - A common profanity used throughout Faerun, especially around the Moonsea and the Heartlands. It's usually shortened to just "Ashes!" The origin is in a common curse, "May there be nothing left but smoke and ashes!" Meaning that essentially, they wish you to come to complete ruin and lose everything of value. It is not generally considered to be that offensive, and in terms of inappropriateness it's rather mild. It's a bit like someone saying "Darn" or "Crap" in modern American English, and it's used in an identical context.
"Redman!" or "Redwoman!" - A racial slur against all Mulan that is obviously in reference to the Red Wizards. It's very common outside of the Old Empires and Thay. Depending on who it is hurled at or used in reference to it will elicit different degrees of offensiveness. It's actually less offensive when hurled at a legitimate Mulan citizen of Thay, especially if they are supporters of the Red Wizards (as most are). It's considered the most offensive when used to describe Mulan not of Thay, due to the association. Ironically it's considered the least offensive when used to describe a Red Wizard. Most people outside of the Old Empires and the Unapproachable East don't draw a distinction between Mulan, and they're all regarded as agents of Thay. Thus, the context that it's often used is something along the lines: "Beware, there is a Redman watching you!" or "You're traveling with a Redman?!" or "We don't do business with Redmen here." or "You disgusting orc gobbling Redman!"
"Hairless Monkey!" - A common tongue racial slur used against Humans by Elves.
"Mole Beast!" - A common tongue racial slur used against Dwarves, Halflings, and Gnomes by Elves. It had it's origins in an Elven word that described Gnomes who worshiped Urdlen. Over time as Gnomes had less contact with Elves it's use started to expand, and ultimately developed into a common slur against Dwarves and later Halflings as well. The Elvish word is "Vysharth" and if it is directly translated to common it would mean, "Wretched One Who Crawls Below". Breaks down to "Vy" which in this context means "Wretched" - which grew out from the curse Vyshaan, which in turn is a reference to the Vyshaan Clan, and "Sharth" which is the Elven word for mole but is literally translated as "One Who Crawls Below".
"Coin Clutcher!" or just "Clutcher!" - A common insult by Halflings. It's used against someone who is regarded as greedy, stingy, miserly, or simply to describe someone who lacks hospitality or generosity to others. It's more offensive among halflings than other races, however due to the large halfling population in Amn it grew into use there by the other races, and there it's one of the most horrible insults that can be used to describe someone. In Amn it's more insulting because of it's wealth related connotations, but among halflings it is more insulting because of it's connotations regarding the lack of hospitality and generosity.
Those are just some of the curses, profanities, and slurs hurled around in my Realms. |
Edited by - Aldrick on 11 Aug 2014 13:52:11 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 23:13:20
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I would have thought that a place like the Realms could draw verbal profanities, obscenities, curses, oaths, imprecations, and insults from a very rich pool of perspectives. Surely elves must have developed numerous subtleties in their swear-words after so many millennia? And dragons must have some of the harshest utterances possible. Think of all the verbal creations of drunken dwarves over the centuries. Lets not forget countless hordes of orcs, goblins, ogres, gnolls, trolls - not the brightest creatures, but I imagine their racial gifts include swears and insults of nearly magical proportions.
Speaking of which - where are those horrible dark words adopted from curses, necromancy, witchcraft, and devil-summoning? I cant imagine fiends having anything nice to say, let alone having any nice ways to say it. Since ancient Netheril onwards, nobody has thought to use these unholiest of harsh, gutteral, expletive slurs when having, say, an anvil dropped upon their foot? There are no priests and followers of dark faiths who happily insult every blade of grass and every pretty face with some sort of horrid demonspawned curse? No liches capable of putting even the foulest-mouthed kender vermin to shame? No Zhents able to carry entire conversations among their kind using nothing but verbal filth? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2018 : 12:19:20
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I struggle with 'stlarn' - given it's a made up word, don't really see a need for the 'l'. 'Tluin' is pretty much in the same category. Then again, if the Realms has places like Heliogabalus and surnames like Pwent, anything goes.
-- George Krashos
Heliogabalus is, of course, a real world name. Which I have always struggled with explaining, as while there are some cultures in the Realms where the languages seem close to some real world ones, I just can't figure out why Damara would name a city for the Latinised-through-Hellinisation name of a Roman Emperor whose name is originally Semitic.
I mean, Unther, Murghom, Semphar, Zakhara and Calimshan, among other places, have languages that can conclusively be termed Semitic, for a variety of reasons. And in a number of sources, Chessenta and the neighbouring regions have used very Hellenic-sounding names and words, with the occasional Latinate flourish. Even some Thayvian terms seem Greek, specifically Byzantine.
But how did the Chessentan, Blade Kingdom, Wizard's Reach or Altumbel name of a native from one of the Semitic-speaking nations of Toril make it up to Damara to become the name of their capital city? |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2018 : 12:22:27
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| And, yeah, I agree with the posters who find it extremely difficult to use Ed's tongue-twisting profanity in play. Which is a shame, because I want to, but it always comes out stilted, unnatural and uncomfortable. Profanity ought to roll of the tongue, not trip over it. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Edited by - Icelander on 28 Apr 2018 12:27:38 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2465 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2018 : 13:05:22
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| I certainly remember there were blasphemies. Hmm. Were there any profanyms? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2018 : 06:42:01
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| how does you worthless ( haired or hairless) Vyshaan dog work? |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36868 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2018 : 16:44:23
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
how does you worthless ( haired or hairless) Vyshaan dog work?
It's only good if the recipient of such an insult knows who the Vyshaan were. Much easier to just say someone's mother was a goblin, or that they were so ugly even a ghoul would leave them alone. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2018 : 19:30:41
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| Maybe their mother was a goblin, but their father was a band of orcs. |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2018 : 02:18:40
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Heh. You must bear in mind that Ed was forbidden to use real-world cusswords in print (because he straight-out did in his original Realms turnovers, and caused TSR staffers to have fits! ;} ) and was swiftly thereafter also forbidden to make up elaborate oaths (of the Conanesque "by the untasted loins of Ishara!" sort).
Yes, his curses are awkward tongue-twisters. He'd much rather go Anglo-Saxon, but with Hasbro owning Wizards, that's even less possible now than it was back in 1979, when the wider gaming world first saw the Realms in print...
love,
THO |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36868 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2018 : 02:41:25
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Heh. You must bear in mind that Ed was forbidden to use real-world cusswords in print (because he straight-out did in his original Realms turnovers, and caused TSR staffers to have fits! ;} ) and was swiftly thereafter also forbidden to make up elaborate oaths (of the Conanesque "by the untasted loins of Ishara!" sort).
Yes, his curses are awkward tongue-twisters. He'd much rather go Anglo-Saxon, but with Hasbro owning Wizards, that's even less possible now than it was back in 1979, when the wider gaming world first saw the Realms in print...
love,
THO
With as uptight as TSR was, back then, how did the Gord the Rogue books slip by? I had the TSR ones, back in the day, and I remember being shocked by the real-world profanity, when I first read them. I'd never seen that in fantasy, before...
Was it because Gary Gygax's name was on the cover, and he thus got some special leeway? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2018 : 04:36:51
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Heh. Gary owned the company. He could do as he pleased, prose-wise.
Love,
THO |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1565 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2018 : 05:04:27
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| *insert various 'your momma' jokes here* |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11984 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2018 : 12:27:38
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
*insert various 'your momma' jokes here*
If I must
You're momma is such a slapthighs that she once took in a whole yuan-ti abomination when it tripped and fell over.
BTW, a very nice collection of hundreds of realms sayings and slang is collected here
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13403 |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36868 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2018 : 14:02:32
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Heh. Gary owned the company. He could do as he pleased, prose-wise.
Love,
THO
That would explain a lot. I didn't realize he still owned the company, at that point. I no longer have my copies of those books -- those and the ones about Mika the Wolf Nomad were among the many books I lost in the fire, and though I replaced damn near all the other TSR/WotC novelage that I lost, I never bothered with those. I'd not read them in a long time, at the time of the fire, and the fire is more than a decade down the road, now... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Corruption
Acolyte
32 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2018 : 13:33:20
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By Besheeba's Bust and Orcus' Anus, some of you need to be creative, for the sake of Lloth's Lower Lips!
Not only is there the matter of langages and society, you have to also look at religion. Followers of a Demon Cult may use something like Nupper Nobbler to refer to a follower of the Devils. (Nupperibo are the lowest rank of Devils, even below Lemure, and this implies they sexually desire those Devils. The only way I can think of describing them is think of the people who are too fat to get out of bed, and a heavy industrial crane is needed to more them. Add the stench of a pit tolet in summer, during an outbreak of the runs and food poisoning, and a mindless hunger to devour everything they can. Now amplify those traits a lot.) |
When all, even Gods, must die, then live a life worth living |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2018 : 01:27:40
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| Your mother was a ghoul and your father was a skeleton, which would by the way; would explain why you're so ug-ly. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2018 : 12:47:03
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| Yo momma is so ugly that even Elminster couldn't identify her. |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11984 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2018 : 13:06:55
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| Yo momma is so ugly that she had to pay a mongrelman to be her glimmersheath |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36868 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2018 : 15:57:41
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Yo momma so stupid illithids ignore her.
Yo momma so nasty Moander wouldn't touch her.
Yo momma so ugly she made Gruumsh put out his other eye. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 07 Jun 2018 15:57:53 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11984 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2018 : 22:29:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Yo momma so stupid illithids ignore her.
Yo momma so nasty Moander wouldn't touch her.
Yo momma so ugly she made Gruumsh put out his other eye.
Lol, I like the last one. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe
USA
483 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2018 : 22:12:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I struggle with 'stlarn' - given it's a made up word, don't really see a need for the 'l'. 'Tluin' is pretty much in the same category. Then again, if the Realms has places like Heliogabalus and surnames like Pwent, anything goes.
-- George Krashos
Heliogabalus is, of course, a real world name. Which I have always struggled with explaining, as while there are some cultures in the Realms where the languages seem close to some real world ones, I just can't figure out why Damara would name a city for the Latinised-through-Hellinisation name of a Roman Emperor whose name is originally Semitic.
I mean, Unther, Murghom, Semphar, Zakhara and Calimshan, among other places, have languages that can conclusively be termed Semitic, for a variety of reasons. And in a number of sources, Chessenta and the neighbouring regions have used very Hellenic-sounding names and words, with the occasional Latinate flourish. Even some Thayvian terms seem Greek, specifically Byzantine.
But how did the Chessentan, Blade Kingdom, Wizard's Reach or Altumbel name of a native from one of the Semitic-speaking nations of Toril make it up to Damara to become the name of their capital city?
Perhaps in the same manner that there is an Alexandria in Egypt? I don't know enough about Damaran history or the timeline on the founding of Heliogabalus, but maybe a great leader from the Blade Kingdoms went on a northern warpath centuries (millenia?) ago and founded this far northern outpost. He was impressed one morning by a particularly beautiful sunrise and named the stronghold in honor of the sun. After being cutoff from southern reinforcements and supplies, he instead fortified it, eventually founding a proper city.
I'm sure that's not even close to accurate in Damaran/Heliogabalus history, but hey I took a swing at it. The point being that explorers and militaristic leaders cause an awful lot of cultural cross-polination.
Hrast! Now I have the song "Istanbul, Not Constantinople" stuck in my head.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36868 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2018 : 22:48:33
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quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion
Hrast! Now I have the song "Istanbul, Not Constantinople" stuck in my head.
You say that as if it's a bad thing...
"Every gal in Constantinople lives in Istanbul, not Constantinople, so if you have a date in Constantinople, she'll be waiting in Istanbul!" |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Swearing & cursing in the Realms
