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Kyrel
Learned Scribe
151 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 01:12:19
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CorellonsDevout. So it struck me earlier today. I also had been scratching my head about how "LGBT" could be an abbreviation of "Transgender". No idea why I didn't realise the full meaning of it earlier. But that's life for you, go figure. You might be right on the statistics. I've never seen them, so I can't say if you are right either way. I'll assume that you meant 1.5 million, rather than billion though, given that the US population is a little over 300 million in total (making transgendered around 0,5% of the population, which sounds somewhat plausible to me).
Roseweave. I don't even know how to begin answering that reply of yours, because frankly I have a hard time figuring out how the hell you get from what I thought I wrote, to how you are apparently interpreting it. The distance between what I thought I wrote, and what you read into it is, quite frankly, staggering to me. I get that you belong to a minority group that to this day and age still suffer from dishearteningly amounts of discrimination. I get the frustration and anger this must give rise to (I was bullied for the better part of a decade myself, and I know what kind of resentment that gave rise to within me at the time), and I am nothing but sympathetic and supportive of eliminating this kind of discrimination against the LGBT group in society. However, though I think I can follow the desire to get this form of recognition in a product like this on the theoretical level, I disagree with the premise that the LGBT crowd isn't acknowledged if it isn't specifically mentioned. I assume that this difference between us is born from a combination of personal experience with being/not being a part of a group being discriminated against in this manner, and the societies we've grown up in (I'm from Denmark, I assume you are from the US). To me, however, the recognition you seek is to me implicit in the a product like this, unless the product specifically describe some form of discrimination against the LGBT group. Obviously you view it differently.
Btw, one question for you. How do you define "queerphobic"? I'm honestly currious here, because you are using the word in a manner I would not have thought that it could apply to, and which I have difficulty aligning with the definition I can find of "homophobic", which I would otherwise have thought would simply be the male related version of the term. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 01:13:58
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Guys…put a lid on it. You both stopped making valid points several posts ago and now it’s just a flame war.
It doesn’t matter who started it. What matters is it’s your responsibility to stop perpetuating the fight.
Please do yourselves (and the rest of us) a favor and call it a day on this topic. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Jaynz
Acolyte
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 01:18:28
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quote:
Anything that helps grow the number of gamers is a good thing.
You're right, and no-one has said otherwise. And I did NOT say that being inclusive was bad. What I said was that 'being inclusive' in a way which can be off-putting (and any WotC's statement is pretty stark in that regard) could be a mistake since it could alienate far more than it would bring. It's not that they did it, it's HOW it was approached - along with further interviews, follow-ups, etc...
I've been gaming a long time, with a wide variety of groups. I have games going back to the 1970s which had gay characters in them, and even a few 'magically transgendered' characters (anyone who has played 1st Edition is familiar with that one). And it was never that big of a deal. But now that it's the political 'in' thing, it has to be blatant? You can see why this feels so shallow and insincere.
In other words, be inclusive by actually being inclusive. Not by showing up a bullet list of 'which minorities we want to include with this printing'. If the LGBT MUST have a section which deliberately includes them, where are the sections for Jews, Blacks, women, Asians, et al? How is it not pandering or special treatment if they're the only group so acknowledged?
Edit: Jeremy, apologies. I didn't see your request until AFTER I finished posting. This will be my last response to this subject.
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Edited by - Jaynz on 09 Aug 2014 01:20:24 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 01:20:38
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| @Kyrel: yeah, I did mean 1.5 million, not billion. Oops, but still, that's a lot of people. I'm not an expert on the statistics, either, I'm just basing them off what I've read and heard. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 01:29:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyrel
CorellonsDevout. So it struck me earlier today. I also had been scratching my head about how "LGBT" could be an abbreviation of "Transgender". No idea why I didn't realise the full meaning of it earlier. But that's life for you, go figure. You might be right on the statistics. I've never seen them, so I can't say if you are right either way. I'll assume that you meant 1.5 million, rather than billion though, given that the US population is a little over 300 million in total (making transgendered around 0,5% of the population, which sounds somewhat plausible to me).
Roseweave. I don't even know how to begin answering that reply of yours, because frankly I have a hard time figuring out how the hell you get from what I thought I wrote, to how you are apparently interpreting it. The distance between what I thought I wrote, and what you read into it is, quite frankly, staggering to me. I get that you belong to a minority group that to this day and age still suffer from dishearteningly amounts of discrimination. I get the frustration and anger this must give rise to (I was bullied for the better part of a decade myself, and I know what kind of resentment that gave rise to within me at the time), and I am nothing but sympathetic and supportive of eliminating this kind of discrimination against the LGBT group in society. However, though I think I can follow the desire to get this form of recognition in a product like this on the theoretical level, I disagree with the premise that the LGBT crowd isn't acknowledged if it isn't specifically mentioned. I assume that this difference between us is born from a combination of personal experience with being/not being a part of a group being discriminated against in this manner, and the societies we've grown up in (I'm from Denmark, I assume you are from the US). To me, however, the recognition you seek is to me implicit in the a product like this, unless the product specifically describe some form of discrimination against the LGBT group. Obviously you view it differently.
Btw, one question for you. How do you define "queerphobic"? I'm honestly currious here, because you are using the word in a manner I would not have thought that it could apply to, and which I have difficulty aligning with the definition I can find of "homophobic", which I would otherwise have thought would simply be the male related version of the term.
Dude you called us special snowflakes for looking for representation amongst any number of other victim blamey things. When you apologise for that I'll look into entertaining you on exact terminology. |
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 01:30:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
Guys…put a lid on it. You both stopped making valid points several posts ago and now it’s just a flame war.
It doesn’t matter who started it. What matters is it’s your responsibility to stop perpetuating the fight.
Please do yourselves (and the rest of us) a favor and call it a day on this topic.
I kind of resent that, because if you knock off the tone policing you'll still see I'm bringing up a lot of very valid points. I have a right to be angry in these situations. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 01:38:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Jaynz
Edit: Jeremy, apologies. I didn't see your request until AFTER I finished posting. This will be my last response to this subject.
Thank you sir.
Also—and belated though it may be—welcome to the forums. 
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Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Jaynz
Acolyte
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 01:47:26
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Thanks, Jeremy. And check out the font thread for my questions.. poor thing's neglected. ;)
And, Roseweave - everything else aside - it is NOT a good idea to tell off the admin about 'tone policing' after starting and participating in a protracted flame war. I've back off, and now you need to as well.
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 02:02:52
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For the record I’m not an admin. I’m one of you.
The reason I’m asking you all to stop is because I care.
Blundering idiot troublemaker though I may be, I care.
quote:
Originally posted by Roseweave
I kind of resent that, because if you knock off the tone policing you'll still see I'm bringing up a lot of very valid points. I have a right to be angry in these situations.
I think your frustration is very real—you wouldn’t keep posting otherwise, right?—but we all have a responsibility as members of this forum space to keep the bigger picture in mind: our hobby is small, the number of people who post at Candlekeep is smaller by far (and the number who post here on a frequent basis has dwindled), and any protracted flame war like the one currently being fought reduces the number of people who come here.
That works against the purpose of the forum space, which is to be a community of Realms fans.
Being upset doesn’t make it OK to attack people or to give back what you get. All that does is ensure you’re ready for a fight with the same people, and that they’ll have an axe to grind with you, the next time the same subject comes up or when you find yourselves disagreeing with each other.
That’s creating a toxic environment.
Balancing strongly held feelings against our responsibility to preserve the population in these halls is a tricky thing. The key is not to get so caught up in the fight that you end up doing permanent damage to the place where you are a guest.
So please, as one scribe to another: let it go. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 09 Aug 2014 02:04:19 |
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 02:03:21
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quote:
it is NOT a good idea to tell off the admin about 'tone policing' after starting and participating in a protracted flame war.
Actually it's always a good idea. They're not the admin of social justice or something.
A good post on the issue:
http://tooyoungforthelivingdead.tumblr.com/tone-policing
"It’s cruel and ridiculous to expect a person to be calm and polite in response to an act of oppression. Marginalized people often do not have the luxury of emotionally distancing themselves from discussions on their rights and experiences.
Tone policing is the ultimate derailing tactic. When you tone police, you automatically shift the focus of the conversation away from what you or someone else did that was wrong, and onto the other person and their reaction. Tone policing is a way of not taking responsibility for ****ing up, and it dismisses the other person’s position by framing it as being emotional and therefore irrational.
But being emotional does not make one’s points any less valid. It’s also important to note that, by tone policing, you not only refuse to examine your own oppressive behaviour, but you also can blame that on the other person, because they were not “nice enough” to be listened to or taken seriously."
Basically - I'm extremely emotionally invested in this, so it's not really fair to hold me the same standard of someone who is about as removed from it as they can be. It's important to allow the marginalised their anger. Sure in theory you can moderate a forum however you want - but it doesn't mean you aren't being oppressive or using your position to silence a member of a marginalised group. After all - we're less likely to run forums in the first place, and are often earmarked as troublemakers for standing up for themselves - so we're understandably sceptical of authority.
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 02:05:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
For the record I’m not an admin. I’m one of you.
I think your frustration is very real—you wouldn’t keep posting otherwise, right?—but we all have a responsibility as members of this forum space to keep the bigger picture in mind: our hobby is small, the number of people who post at Candlekeep is smaller by far (and the number who post here on a frequent basis has dwindled), and any protracted flame war like the one currently being fought reduces the number of people who come here.
That works against the purpose of the forum space, which is to be a community of Realms fans.
Being upset doesn’t make it OK to attack people or to give back what you get. All that does is ensure you’re ready for a fight with the same people, and that they’ll have an axe to grind with you, the next time the same subject comes up or when you find yourselves disagreeing with each other.
That’s creating a toxic environment.
Balancing strongly held feelings against our responsibility to preserve the population in these halls is a tricky thing. The key is not to get so caught up in the fight that you end up doing permanent damage to the place where you are a guest.
So please, as one scribe to another: let it go.
You're approaching this the wrong way. Don't tell someone from a marginalised group to let go of an argument involving their issues. You're still policing them, so you're going to get their back up. Your best bet if you want things to cool down is keep a distance or find a way to alleviate the concerns raised. Taking a middle ground isn't always the correct answer, in issues dealing with discrimination and oppression it generally isn't, it just means upholding the status quo which is what we want to change.
As much as I'd rather not see the forum decrease in activity - I think this issues is bigger than any of us individually, and bigger than the forum. It's about the future of gaming amongst other things and how people like me are represented in it. |
Edited by - Roseweave on 09 Aug 2014 02:06:52 |
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Kyrel
Learned Scribe
151 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 02:05:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Roseweave
Dude you called us special snowflakes for looking for representation amongst any number of other victim blamey things. When you apologise for that I'll look into entertaining you on exact terminology.
Roseweave. If you re-read what I've written, I think you'll find that I haven't called anyone anything akin to "special snowflakes" or similar, nor can I recall what I should have written, that can be constructed as "victim blamey things", though I'm sorry if something I've written have left you with the impression that something like that has been my intention. Do me a favour and keep what I've written separate from what Jaynz have written. |
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 02:07:50
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| Sorry. When you have to deal with this, constantly and being talked over the voices tend to blur together. I've been in some variation of this argument for the last week or so and it's kind of destroying me. It's not something you can walk away from, though. |
Edited by - Roseweave on 09 Aug 2014 02:09:07 |
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 02:11:31
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There are some very problematic things in your own posts though, for example -
"2) I don't believe that the section would be in the book, if the LGBT topic wasn't "in" for the moment, which is why I call "political correctness", though you can argue that it falls outside of the definition of that term."
We're not a trend, and we do need representation. Terms like "political correctness" tend to be erasure tactics. |
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Jaynz
Acolyte
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 02:19:30
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I'm not going to go too far on this... but what exactly is this supposed to mean?
quote:
I like how you put Hamas first, which shows up where you're coming from pretty well.
Really I've got nothing good at all in trying to think of what you meant here.
Anyway... to Jeremy...
quote:
The reason I’m asking you all to stop is because I care.
And it doesn't make you any less right. Our hobby is small and shrinking, which is why I'm against taking steps that highlight the differences between gamer's views in life rather than present a truly inclusive game and settings.
You (the generic "you") can say what you want about WotC's motives and attempt, but if we're all honest about this, 'inclusion' has not happened as a result of these 82 words. But a whole lot of flame-wars, dividing lines, name-calling, and threats have come around. This thread is the norm, really... is this really where we want to take gaming? A hobby where people divide themselves just as sharply as we see on the evening news?
And do we really accept the standard for 'inclusion' as now explicitly requiring an overt statement promoting transsexuality? Are we really supposed to accept that every single other game that had it 'as wrote' is actually bigoted and inherently hateful? As a designer who has worked with many in the gaming community, I personally find that extremely hateful and offensive. (Not to mention ironic considering the number of gays, lesbians, and transgenders in the industry who are now bigoted, apparently.)
I just can't find any of this inclusive. In fact, I honestly feel it promotes the opposite - all in the name of scoring a little bit of media buzz.
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Edited by - Jaynz on 09 Aug 2014 02:31:22 |
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 02:23:14
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Tbh, one thing people don't really get. Gaming is often seen as a haven for LGBT people because you can escape real world discrimination and social structures. You can play a character who's more confident and better liked than you are in real life.
It's helpful for me that I can play a character who is unashamedly pansexual and more sexual than I am. The fact that I can play a character who has a history(and sometimes present) as what is ultimately a sex worker(courtesan or firefly style companion) is particularly liberating, even if some people aren't fully comfortable with the details, it's still some common knowledge what she does and nobody looks down on her for it, or her sexuality or her generally eccentric mode of expression. While she's more or less become her own entity, playing her still does get to touch on aspects of my personality I might not be confident enough to express in real life. I'm never going to be physically desirable as an attractive cisgender woman.
I did this without the say-so of the system as such - but imagine if there were no courtesans in Toril. Imagine the Moonstone Mask did not exist. Imagine people defaulted to the idea of any sort of sex worker being a street walker, and had a negative image of that. To me, the image of a courtesan is one of feminine power and confidence. I think of Inara and Veronica Franco. If Firefly and the Honest Courtesan didn't exist, it'd be a lot harder to swing that.
When you start talking about escapism, getting away from "real life politics" you should consider that we are doing just the same thing. It is if anything the presence of an institution which polices our identities and sexualities that are the real Politics with a capital P, and the negative sort. When I read something like that those 2 paragraphs in a PHB the message I get is - "Don't worry. You're safe here." as someone who's gotten bullied out of many communities for being an outspoken queer, sex positive trans-feminist and having been assaulted for being visible transgender amongst other things, that means an awful lot to me.
So please don't criticise me as somehow shallow for taking every little thing I can get. I'm not looking for representation because I'm weak. I'm looking for it because I'm starved of it and am more exposed to the darkness of the "real world" than most of you are. |
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Kyrel
Learned Scribe
151 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 02:28:37
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Fair enough you do not feel you're sufficiently represented. I'll conced that as true.
In the quote you mention, it was not my intention to depict the LGBT community as a "trend" though, my point was that I do not believe that these two paragraphs would have been in the book, if the topic of LGBT rights etc. had not gotten an increased focus in society in recent years.
As for the term "political correctness" being an erasure tactic, I think is a matter of how the concept is used in our respective locations. To me the use of the expression is not intended as such a tactic, rather it is a concept that I find tends to move the focus in a debate away from the content of the debate, and onto the form of the debate instead, which in my book is a bad thing. Also, I find that the focus on being "politically correct" in society today, is giving rise to people making various forms of statement, simply as to not appear politically incorrect, regardless of whether or not the person or organisation actually mean what they say. In this case, the two paragraphs here come across to me as an empty pandering, not to the LGBT demographic, but rather to the politically correct majority, and Wizard's intention, as I interpret it, is not to make the LGBT crowd feel included, but rather to prevent Wizard's from appearing queerphobic? and/or bigotted. Obviously you don't share that interpretation with me. |
Edited by - Kyrel on 09 Aug 2014 02:34:07 |
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Kyrel
Learned Scribe
151 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 02:32:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Roseweave
Tbh, one thing people don't really get. Gaming is often seen as a haven for LGBT people because you can escape real world discrimination and social structures. You can play a character who's more confident and better liked than you are in real life.
It's helpful for me that I can play a character who is unashamedly pansexual and more sexual than I am. The fact that I can play a character who has a history(and sometimes present) as what is ultimately a sex worker(courtesan or firefly style companion) is particularly liberating, even if some people aren't fully comfortable with the details, it's still some common knowledge what she does and nobody looks down on her for it, or her sexuality or her generally eccentric mode of expression. While she's more or less become her own entity, playing her still does get to touch on aspects of my personality I might not be confident enough to express in real life. I'm never going to be physically desirable as an attractive cisgender woman.
I did this without the say-so of the system as such - but imagine if there were no courtesans in Toril. Imagine the Moonstone Mask did not exist. Imagine people defaulted to the idea of any sort of sex worker being a street walker, and had a negative image of that. To me, the image of a courtesan is one of feminine power and confidence. I think of Inara and Veronica Franco. If Firefly and the Honest Courtesan didn't exist, it'd be a lot harder to swing that.
When you start talking about escapism, getting away from "real life politics" you should consider that we are doing just the same thing. It is if anything the presence of an institution which polices our identities and sexualities that are the real Politics with a capital P, and the negative sort. When I read something like that those 2 paragraphs in a PHB the message I get is - "Don't worry. You're safe here." as someone who's gotten bullied out of many communities for being an outspoken queer, sex positive trans-feminist and having been assaulted for being visible transgender amongst other things, that means an awful lot to me.
So please don't criticise me as somehow shallow for taking every little thing I can get. I'm not looking for representation because I'm weak. I'm looking for it because I'm starved of it and am more exposed to the darkness of the "real world" than most of you are.
Now this Roseweave, I can understand, relate to, and completely respect. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 02:46:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Roseweave
You're approaching this the wrong way. Don't tell someone from a marginalised group to let go of an argument involving their issues. You're still policing them, so you're going to get their back up.
I understand that you perceive anyone approaching you to ask you to stop fighting as policing you.
However, we’re all a community here. Community members—especially those of us who’ve been around for years—trying to head off problems isn’t policing.
Consider: if you happen to be about to walk off a cliff and I try to get your attention and point out what’s about to happen, does it really make sense for you to put my seeming failure to recognize what group you’re a part of above the impending disaster you’re about to find yourself in?
I don’t choose my metaphors lightly. Continuing the fight is the same thing as walking off a cliff.
quote:
Originally posted by Roseweave
Taking a middle ground isn't always the correct answer, in issues dealing with discrimination and oppression it generally isn't, it just means upholding the status quo which is what we want to change.
That may be the case, but issues of real world discrimination and oppression aren’t what this forum space is for.
That doesn’t mean such issues aren’t important, because they are. What it does mean is that when things go too far, the fight (no longer a discussion) needs to stop.
quote:
Originally posted by Roseweave
As much as I'd rather not see the forum decrease in activity - I think this issue is bigger than any of us individually, and bigger than the forum. It's about the future of gaming amongst other things and how people like me are represented in it.
If that’s really true—if that’s what you really believe—then fighting as absolutely hard as you can, to the point where you’re flinging insults and really taking it to others, isn’t going to help, at all.
Instead, I think your advice from earlier about taking a middle ground is much more applicable.
Have you read any of David Gerold’s posts on Facebook? An uncomfortably famous gay sci-fi author who has A LOT to say on the subject of homosexuality and how to approach/deal with others about it. Worth subscribing to his posts if you are on Facebook.
This is my last post on the topic. I hope Wooly or Sage will weigh in and either try to get things back on track or lock the scroll down. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 09 Aug 2014 02:48:10 |
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 02:53:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Jaynz
I'm not going to go too far on this... but what exactly is this supposed to mean?
I like how you put Hamas first, which shows up where you're coming from pretty well.
First off - in all earnesty, explain how I am a bigot, and how I am oppressing someone.
I want a genuine answer. |
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Jaynz
Acolyte
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 03:02:04
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Okay, you've made numerous anti-straight comments, and drew and flamed me for many viewpoints that you ASSIGNED to me based on nothing more than what you want me to believe. You constantly engaged in rhetoric and attacks which dismissed me as a person as well as my viewpoints based on your assumption of my sexuality - or my experience with sexuality. And at no point did you even bother to find out the truth. You were/are so blinded by your own hatred, you lashed out at me as something less than human. You did not give /me/ the basic human decency that I would have given to you by default.
And yes, by attempting to silence me, and threaten me, you are indeed engaging in oppression. You're doing the same thing to me, and others, that you complain about happening to you. This isn't dismissing what you go through, or feel you go through, but it's not right for you to randomly dish it out towards others that did not deserve it.
You make the assumption that no one understands what you go through, or that no one here can understand severe bullying, or assault, or anything of the like. Yet, if I were to hazard a guess, knowing as many gamers as I do, I'm willing to bet that the overwhelming majority of folks on Candlekeep, if not everyone here, have had to deal with the hatred of others for one reason or another. We all went to gaming for escapist fantasy - every last one of us. And for you to dismiss what we have gone through as trivial because we're not (so far as you know) transgender, is incredibly insulting.
When you don't acknowledge the humanity of others, because you're too busy lashing out about the injustices you feel have been done to you, you're going to find the first thing to happen is a dramatic loss of respect for you. Despite what your 'social justice' links and pages may say, this is NOT the way to move forward - unless getting more people to simply just hate you outright is your goal.
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 03:23:57
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| There's a gnome standing on a step stool next to me asking everyone to simmer down please. ;) |
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Jaynz
Acolyte
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 03:28:01
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I don't respect gnomes unless they've got a Gatling Wand of Wonder at their side. ;)
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 03:31:20
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quote:
Okay, you've made numerous anti-straight comments,
Queer people do not possess institutionalised power to oppress straight people. Perhaps you have been raised on the doctrine that it goes both ways, but in truth it does not. The point of oppression is that it's more or less one way. And no, I have not said anything that constitutes "anti-straight". You seem to have a misunderstanding of how oppression works. There is no "anti-straight" bias in society that results in straight people being oppressed, for being straight. So attempting to compare this largely imaginary construct to real life queer oppression is extremely insulting and disrespectful - and I want you to acknowledge this.
quote:
You constantly engaged in rhetoric and attacks which dismissed me as a person as well as my viewpoints based on your assumption of my sexuality - or my experience with sexuality.
This was because you were engaging in silencing tactics. Policing of minorities and marginalised groups is a very serious issue. It is important to allow us the ability to decide how best to approach our own struggles, instead of attacking us for how we go about them. It's not a straight person's place to comment on issues that only truly affect gay people, for example.
quote:
You were/are so blinded by your own hatred, you lashed out at me as something less than human. You did not give /me/ the basic human decency that I would have given to you by default.
It's not about hatred. It's about dealing with oppression. Anger towards one's oppressors is not to be held on the same level as oppression. If you read the first thing about oppression theory you would know this.
quote:
And yes, by attempting to silence me, and threaten me, you are indeed engaging in oppression.
How did I threaten you? And I was not attempting to silence you anymore than you were me. Far less than that. Also, no, I was not engaging in oppression. That is not what oppression is.
Please read this as to regards what constitutes silencing with regards sexism at least:
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Silencing
It largely follows in the same mode when it comes to queer issues.
I have pointed out silencing tactics in your posts where they occur, and you have largely ignored this. If you like, I could go back through one of your posts and explain how you were using silencing tactics, and why.
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You're doing the same thing to me, and others, that you complain about happening to you.
No, I'm not. What you're doing to me is helping propagate a lack of inclusion in the media by attempting to shame advocates into silence on the issue. You misunderstand my problem completely if this is the case. To do to you what you do to me, I would require a time machine and a means of instigating hundreds of years of exclusion and oppression against some other subgroup you belong to in a similar manner to how queer people have been treated.
Again, it really doesn't go both ways. That's just a convenient lie the privileged spread to make it feel like they're not part of the problem. You need to accept that as a straight, cisgender person, you are more privileged than I am with regards these issues. Similarly, even within the queer community, we have some people who are relatively more privileged. We try not to get into the "oppression olympics", but it is a problem when white, middle class gay males for example talk over the issues of transgender women.
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You make the assumption that no one understands what you go through, or that no one here can understand severe bullying, or assault, or anything of the like.
You cannot truly understand what it is like to be transgender unless you are transgender. You cannot truly understand what it is like to experience homophobia unless you have experienced it. You can sympathise, but not empathise. Please look up at how these words are defined and it might give you some insight. That's not to say that people who are not trans are incapable of writing good trans characters, for example - but they should never try to pretend they know better than a trans person.
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Yet, if I were to hazard a guess, knowing as many gamers as I do, I'm willing to bet that the overwhelming majority of folks on Candlekeep, if not everyone here, have had to deal with the hatred of others for one reason or another.
Sorry, no. I've been bullied "as a nerd" on top of being trans. Please do not seriously compare the plight of the socially awkward to the plight of those who are regularly murdered or bullied into suicide for their identity.
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And for you to dismiss what we have gone through as trivial because we're not (so far as you know) transgender, is incredibly insulting.
No. I have said you have not experienced queer or transgender issues, so you cannot comment on them first hand. You should not be telling others that they are childish or otherwise be policing their oppression, if you don't know what it's like. And stop insisting you do. You don't. Forcing that on us is incredibly disrespectful and erases our identity.
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When you don't acknowledge the humanity of others, because you're too busy lashing out about the injustices you feel have been done to you, you're going to find the first thing to happen is a dramatic loss of respect for you. Despite what your 'social justice' links and pages may say, this is NOT the way to move forward - unless getting more people to simply just hate you outright is your goal.
Not the way to move forward - according to who? You? Did you consider that maybe you were the one at fault in this?
Again. You are telling someone who has dealt with these issues for over a decade. You are telling you know better than a queer transwoman how to handle the issues that queer transwomen face. You are erasing and talking over my experiences. We get less of a voice in mainstream culture than you do - and even here on this forum you are telling me what to say and think on issues that affect me, and not you. That is what oppression is. Not a transwoman shouting a sheltered cisdude that he doesn't know what he's talking about. Not only that, you dismiss the collective knowledge of my people by hand waving away those "social justice links".
That is not your place. It is the business of queer people how queer people move forward. Not yours. You are expressing a highly colonialist attitude when you act in this manner - the great saviour who can tell all the lower down, unenlightened people how to do their business. If you cared about LGBT people you would listen to LGBT people. You do not. Not at all. Learn for once that you are not the most important person in the room. We've had to deal with being the least important for most of our lives. We get one thing that puts us on an equal footing, and you call those who appreciate it needy children.
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Edited by - Roseweave on 09 Aug 2014 03:36:31 |
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Jaynz
Acolyte
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 03:38:32
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Okay, now, we honestly now are done. You insist on making assumptions (several are which are NOT true), in order to demonize me and dismiss anything anyone who is not you has to say. I'll only say this, you will never end up in a 'good' place for yourself, and who you are, by embracing the hatred like you have, by showing the venom that you do. You'll never, ever in your life, be 'included' when you actively drive everyone else away.
I would say to 'enjoy your life', but I'm afraid you never will. Meanwhile, maybe you can find some temporary solace in gaming... As for me, I should get back to it.
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 03:45:23
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You're not addressing any of my points, at all. You are childishly running away when you are criticised and dismiss everything off hand as "hatred" so you don't have to engage anything. I am calling you oppressive and then I go on to explain why. You do not afford me the same luxury. Clearly, respect is a one way street here.
Also be aware that what you're saying isn't personally against me, but almost the entire LGBT community. Everything I am saying would be considered valid within that context, and it does not take that long on google or whatever to find that out. You cannot claim you you are not being queerphobic when the line of just about any queer advocacy group would say otherwise.
If my assumptions are incorrect - then it is up to you to correct me on them. I can only work with the information I'm given. You are making any number of assumptions about me, too. You are painting me as a miscreant who chases everyone away. That is extremely insulting. But every time I point out you're being insulting - you ignore it. Because you only care about being insulted. The plight of the actually oppressed is completely irrelevant to you. Which I'm assuming is one of the "assumptions" I'm making - but you're doing nothing to prove it wrong. You have literally listened to nothing I've said, not conceded a single point to a queer transwoman on issues of being a queer transwoman. You form views of entire groups but refuse to let them have a say in how you view them.
And here's the thing - because you are privileged, you can walk away from this. I can't. I have to keep justifying my existence to people and arguing with people who just don't get it. If I'm never happy, it's because of people like you who refuse to show the tiniest amount of humility to a member of a group they've been told they're traditionally better than.
You are homophobic, you are transphobic. Because of the fact that you resent us speaking up so much. If you weren't, you'd be able to disprove me. But you can't. |
Edited by - Roseweave on 09 Aug 2014 03:46:11 |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 03:45:28
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| Enough pot shots, shutup folks. |
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 03:46:59
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| ^ This isn't about potshots. It's actually extremely important, because it's clarifying what oppression is and how it works. It does not go both ways, so please do not treat me the same way as someone who is being actively oppressive. If everyone acknowledges that he is in the wrong, we can move on. But if you still hold bigotry on the same level as advocacy, because it's bothersome for you, we cannot. People need to call him out on what he's doing and saying. It's not an issue of there being a flamewar - this is an incidence of homo/transphobia and erasure. |
Edited by - Roseweave on 09 Aug 2014 03:48:37 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 04:36:39
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Holy damn, people, this went off quickly... I'd really prefer not to have to lock down the thread, so perhaps we can all sit back and take a breather? We need to get not let our keyboards get the best of us, and we damn sure need to stop being insulting towards each other.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 09 Aug 2014 04:38:43 |
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hammer of Moradin
Senior Scribe
USA
758 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 18:47:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Roseweave
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Originally posted by hammer of Moradin
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Originally posted by Roseweave
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I do have to say though that Roseweave went way over my head.
You guys probably need to start here then.
http://borderhouseblog.com/?page_id=54
Too much schooling has taught me to stay away from editorial and opinion pieces unless I'm looking for some entertainment. These subjects are not for entertainment and don't seem to have a lot of source materials, so I'll skim and skip. Not that I don't value opinions on these subjects.
Um, these aren't "opinion pieces". They represent a rough consensus from girl geeks, LGBT people, minorities etc. on how you should be respectful of them and approach this sort of discussion. If you're "staying away" from this sort of thing you're basically outright saying you don't care about what we have to say about our own lived experiences. It's important to educate yourself on things like privilege and oppression, and this is as good a place as any to start.
Choosing not to be educated is a privilege you have that I do not.
Sorry, let me say again that for opinions(including a consensus of opinions AND experiences) that this is a valid page of useful links. Yes, it looks like a good starting point. I like that it includes the disability category which hits close to home.
Let me thank you for assuming I'm a dolt, a bigot, uneducated, uncaring, and/or an ass.
I have educated myself about the issues that matter to me and continue to do so. I read through a few of these links, skimmed a few, and took a few for nothing more than the opinion pieces they are. Do those opinions matter? Yes. To me? Not always in this matter. I want to read something with source materials, studies, and research behind it for the type of information I want on all of these subjects for what I know and have learned.
So if I am "staying away" from them it is because I have read or heard similar information before or they conflict with my (usually educated) opinion, or it has never come up before and does not directly affect me. Should I learn more? Sure. I should also know a lot of other things in my life that I don't until they become issues for me. An issue for you is not necessarily an issue for me. Forcing that issue on me does not make me want to empathize, sympathize, or pathize anything with you! Educate myself on privilege and oppression? I have and I'm sure I have a lot to learn in my time on this planet. You and a few million others can do that I'm sure, however I think I will take that information from someone less combative, nicer, and that values my opinions rather than assumes too little of me.
On that note where do you get off assuming that you can't be someone who oppresses, marginalizes, or bullies just because you are in a group that is oppressed, marginalized, or bullied? Anyone, and I mean anyone, can have any of these things put upon them by others. You said in other comments "Queer people do not possess institutionalised power to oppress straight people. Perhaps you have been raised on the doctrine that it goes both ways, but in truth it does not. The point of oppression is that it's more or less one way." Sorry, you may identify as a queer person, but you are still a person, and any person can oppress, marginalized, or bully another. Yes, you gave a specific example there, but some of your other comments give the impression that you "in general" can only be on the receiving end. This may be true to you, yet in all of your comments you come across as the opposite. After reading most of your comments I can't help but feel oppressed, marginalized, and bullied, and I don't even fit in with 95% of the comments of your intended audience.
Your intended message is one I would fully support. Your method of delivery totally sucks. Therefore, message not received, and has probably turned a few people off to your message and your cause.   |
"Hurling himself upon his enemies, he terrified them with slaughter!"
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
Candlekeep proverb: If a thing is said often enough, fools aplenty will believe it to be true. |
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I think WOTC entered the modern age
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