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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Aug 2014 : 17:48:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyrel
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Kyrel: How is merely acknowledging someone's existence political correctness?
Hoondatha. Though I intended not to bother with this thread any further, you do ask me a direct question, so here goes:
The reason I feel like this is political correctness, is because I'm pretty sure that there isn't a significant percentage of neither the world population in general, nor the D&D customer base, that belong to the LGBT crowd. For that reason, I'm fairly certain that this is not a nod to this group of people, that has been motivated by any research into the customerbase, but rather it shows up in the book, simply because this particular minority group and their "supporters" (can't think of a better word atm) have brought the matter into the public sphere through various debates in the past few years. If this debate had not taken place, I seriously doubt that this little passage would have been in the book, and that's the reason I name this as political correctness.
In my view these 82 words do not seriously contribute anything to the game or the setting, and for that reason I would have preferred another couple of sentences that did. Also, if we are seriously going to start down this road, giving nods to various real world minority groups, which population group should get a nod in the next edition, just as a recognition of their existence? The BDSM crowd? The Furry's? The balloon or latex lover crowd, or perhaps the drug addicts or alcoholics? You can say that this is obviously silly, but ask yourself if the same thing wouldn't have been said about these 82 words 25 years ago.
I have nothing against the existence of all sorts of real world matters existing within the game world, and I have played both male, female, straight, bi, and homosexual/lesbian characters in various games over the years. But I see no particular reason to include a reference to something like this, just to indicate that the game creators recognize that a particular demographic exists in the real world, and that it is therefor OK for it to also exist in the game world too.
Being a furry or being into BDSM is not at all the same as being LGBT. 
The last time I checked, there wasn't widespread -- and in many case, legal and institutionalized -- discrimination against furries or Trekkies or people that have a thing for wearing My Little Pony costumes while getting it on. People have not been ostracized by friends, family, and coworkers for being furries. People have not been assaulted, imprisoned, or murdered for liking latex. I've not heard of any balloon fetishists being kicked out of their homes or driven to suicide because of their treatment at the hands of others.
Acknowledging that not everyone is the same, and saying all are welcome, is not political correctness. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2014 : 18:18:30
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| Well said, Wooly, especially since those who like BDSM or latex can fall into any orientation, be it LGBT or cissexual. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 08 Aug 2014 18:26:03 |
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Kyrel
Learned Scribe
151 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2014 : 19:07:06
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Wooly. Pick any minority group you might like. I just pulled Furries etc. "out of a hat" so to speak, in order to represent the concept "minority group"/"not majority group". The thing with the argument "acknowledging that not everyone is the same, and saying all are welcome, is not political correctness." is that you can use the same argument about any specific group, excately because we are not all the same, and because everyone should be welcome to play this game, regardless of which type of minority, majority, ethnicity, fan group, fetish group, sub group, or whatever group one might belong to. As said, I have two contentions with this:
1) I don't believe that it adds anything to the game that wasn't there already.
2) I don't believe that the section would be in the book, if the LGBT topic wasn't "in" for the moment, which is why I call "political correctness", though you can argue that it falls outside of the definition of that term.
Peace |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2014 : 20:07:25
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You can't make the same argument about any group, because few groups face the kind of discrimination LGBT people do.
You may not believe it adds anything, but that is not a universal opinion. We've had several people here -- LGBT and straight -- comment that they do feel it adds to the game, simply by being inclusive. If it makes people feel more welcome, how is it a bad thing? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Jaynz
Acolyte
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2014 : 22:13:01
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Because it's not my job nor duty to affirm the lifestyles and genders of other people, or to have my entertainment do it for them. This, to me, makes about as much sense as putting a gold star on the front cover of the book saying "Jews can play now, too!"
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2014 : 22:40:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Cards77
Unnecessary political statement that reeks of token political correctness for all the wrong reasons. Statements like these shouldn't even need to be made.
My experience has been very different. Our local gamers were by definition marginalized, stigmatized, and overall viewed as "different"...."drama freaks" etc. So we have ALWAYS been by nature inclusive in our gaming because frankly us misfits weren't accepted anywhere else. The result being similar to what Wooly said, because of our diversity as "gamers", "nerds", whatever...we have been by definition more sensitive and inclusive.
Okay but if you're using terms like "political correctness" by definition you're not being inclusive and sensitive since that's generally used as a silencing tactic -
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Silencing |
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2014 : 22:43:15
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quote:
Originally posted by hammer of Moradin
quote:
Originally posted by Roseweave
quote:
I do have to say though that Roseweave went way over my head.
You guys probably need to start here then.
http://borderhouseblog.com/?page_id=54
Too much schooling has taught me to stay away from editorial and opinion pieces unless I'm looking for some entertainment. These subjects are not for entertainment and don't seem to have a lot of source materials, so I'll skim and skip. Not that I don't value opinions on these subjects.
Um, these aren't "opinion pieces". They represent a rough consensus from girl geeks, LGBT people, minorities etc. on how you should be respectful of them and approach this sort of discussion. If you're "staying away" from this sort of thing you're basically outright saying you don't care about what we have to say about our own lived experiences. It's important to educate yourself on things like privilege and oppression, and this is as good a place as any to start.
Choosing not to be educated is a privilege you have that I do not. |
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2014 : 22:54:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyrel
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Kyrel: How is merely acknowledging someone's existence political correctness?
Hoondatha. Though I intended not to bother with this thread any further, you do ask me a direct question, so here goes:
The reason I feel like this is political correctness, is because I'm pretty sure that there isn't a significant percentage of neither the world population in general, nor the D&D customer base, that belong to the LGBT crowd. For that reason, I'm fairly certain that this is not a nod to this group of people, that has been motivated by any research into the customerbase, but rather it shows up in the book, simply because this particular minority group and their "supporters" (can't think of a better word atm) have brought the matter into the public sphere through various debates in the past few years. If this debate had not taken place, I seriously doubt that this little passage would have been in the book, and that's the reason I name this as political correctness.
In my view these 82 words do not seriously contribute anything to the game or the setting, and for that reason I would have preferred another couple of sentences that did. Also, if we are seriously going to start down this road, giving nods to various real world minority groups, which population group should get a nod in the next edition, just as a recognition of their existence? The BDSM crowd? The Furry's? The balloon or latex lover crowd, or perhaps the drug addicts or alcoholics? You can say that this is obviously silly, but ask yourself if the same thing wouldn't have been said about these 82 words 25 years ago.
I have nothing against the existence of all sorts of real world matters existing within the game world, and I have played both male, female, straight, bi, and homosexual/lesbian characters in various games over the years. But I see no particular reason to include a reference to something like this, just to indicate that the game creators recognize that a particular demographic exists in the real world, and that it is therefor OK for it to also exist in the game world too.
Oh wow. Yeah, okay, sorry, but you are really goddamn homophobic and need to acknowledge this. And don't get defensive of it. Most of us are fed up of straight people who get offended over being called out on being homophobia as if they're being oppressed, meanwhile transgirls like me are murdered every other week and you couldn't give a toss and would call any efforts to stop this "Political Correctness gone mad." No, screw people like that. I'm tired of it and I'm entitled to be angry when I have to put up with being dehumanised like this constantly.
LGBT people make up somewhere between 4-8% of the population, and given the nature of gaming the percentage there is likely upwards of 10%. And then you have their friends, their families, etc. who would like to see the sort of people they know being realised in the games they play. You are so used to being catered for, you have to make up bad words to describe when other people actually get represented for once. It honestly makes me ill on top of angry. I don't give a crap if you claim that you have "nothing against" us. What you're saying is against us, it's characterising a marginalised group as the aggressor in the situation when it is in fact people like you that are being oppressive by using silencing tactics like this. Straight people, as a group, are not oppressed. Having to put up with 2 paragraphs in a book is not comparable to being thrown out of your house, fired or killed for being gay. If you prioritise you own vague discomfort or disagreement over the inclusion of vulnerable groups, you have terrible priorities and are probably a bad human being.
I won't even get started on the drug addicts/alcoholics thing. And for what it's worth, yes, some systems like GURPS do include this sort of thing under quirks/flaws etc.
Queer representation is such a ridiculously huge issue. Some of us are sick of seeing straight white dudes in everything and being expected to identify them when straight white dudes are seldom asked the same of us. You'll never know the pain of feeling like you don't belong in the world of your favourite worlds. So even if it's small or seems unnecessary - this is a step forward. And as a straight cisgender person, it is absolutely not your place to police us.
quote:
Originally posted by Jaynz
Because it's not my job nor duty to affirm the lifestyles and genders of other people, or to have my entertainment do it for them. This, to me, makes about as much sense as putting a gold star on the front cover of the book saying "Jews can play now, too!"
You benefit from the privilege afforded to you by not being of those "lifestyles" or "genders". It's your duty as a decent human being to treat everyone as you would another one of your straight white cisgender brethren, and by saying it's not your "job" to "cater" to them, you are outright saying you are discriminating against them, as you are denying them their equivalent of an experience you offer to people like you.
It's not "your" entertainment. Do you understand how bigoted it is to say that? It's not for white people, it's not for straight people, it's for people in general. It should be for everyone, but unfortunately when we put things out there unchecked they tend to reflect the biases in our society. Putting in 2 little paragraphs like this is an indicator that WotC are at least, keeping that in mind. It's reassuring, and we need that. You do not. You've had so much affirmation for so long. It's time to let others have that. |
Edited by - Roseweave on 08 Aug 2014 23:06:24 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2014 : 23:13:02
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I agree with what Roseweave said. Perhaps the 82 words was a bit misplaced or random, but I am glad Wizards is making the effort. I have a lot of non-binary characters, and I would love to read more FR novels featuring non-binary characters. Just because you don't identify with a certain group doesn't mean you can't educate yourself about and support them. I actually learn a lot about myself the more I learn about the LGBTQ. It's been a great experience.
The Realms already has a cacophony of races. I don't see why they can't expand further. I would fully support this inclusiveness. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2014 : 23:23:16
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Unfortunately people are so used to settings where LGBT people don't exist that they do make the subconscious assumption that it might not have a place in this world. It's not as if the lore thus far really backs it, despite Ed claiming various female characters to be bisexual, etc.
Also - keep in mind that people see D&D as medieval/renaissance fantasy fare, and a lot of people use the "There weren't gay people back then!" sort of argument. It sounds dumb, but it might not occur to people that D&D is a fantasy world that doesn't have to reflect our own repressed history. Since it's not something that's ever gotten any official mention up until now, it's important to inform people of how sexuality and gender identity is viewed in D&D Multiverse. I mean how many times does Ed get asked this stuff or does it get asked online?
This was probably the main thinking behind putting it in there in the first place, if anything. You can say this should be up to the settings books, but flip that around and it's a commitment towards being inclusive in ALL settings. |
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Jaynz
Acolyte
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2014 : 23:32:42
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quote:
You benefit from the privilege afforded to you by not being of those "lifestyles" or "genders". It's your duty as a decent human being to treat everyone as you would another...
And I do. And here's the trick. I don't sum up an entire person by what sort of sexual identity they have. I do not see the need to give special and unique and favored status above all else to any single group. I do not see the need to /bullet-point/ all the various gender-identities that are going around in an effort to be inclusive.
You see, oddly enough I took for granted the stated 'anyone can play what they want' and have been doing that for years. I never needed anyone to give me a 'to do quota list' of who should be included and by how much lest I be called a 'bigot', which you're so instantly want to do. I just let people be.
This so-called 'inclusive' statement really isn't. It's pandering, and it saddens me greatly that your own need for validation and affirmation can be satisfied by something so shallow, so blatant, and so pointless. And now there's a demand that EVERY game book effectively has a 'Gays (etc.) can play too!" sticker on the front cover.
Personally, I find it sad and ridiculous. And I find those who NEED that affirmation, to this degree, to the exclusion of all other minorities (and you may ask the Jews about how they've never been oppressed in history), also quite sad and ridiculous.
But I guess from now on, to be 'included', you have to be specifically pointed out. So tell me, where is the paragraph that lets Latinos play? or Blacks? Or Jews? Or Christians for that matter (since the gaming hobby has been deliberately exclusive of them as a whole for decades now)? How about women? Where's the paragraph saying "You don't need to be confined to the notion that all heroes are men"?
Because, here's the thing. I don't believe for a MOMENT that you lot just want 'inclusion'. You've had that all along. What you want is 'special snowflake status', and to strut around saying 'we're finally recognized under this cis-normal (itself an insult) society'. You act like small children desperate for attention and approval - when all you really need to do is GROW UP. Want to be accepted as a gamer? Then try being a gamer - no hyphens necessary.
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Jaynz
Acolyte
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2014 : 23:43:24
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And, and another thing miss "I like to call everyone a bigot and shame them so I win all discussions." You made a whole bunch of assumptions on your own here. You first claim to speak for ALL non-straight people, when this thread has examples that directly conflict with your own statements. You assume that EVERYONE who isn't on board with this is a bigot - or self-loathing, because they can't POSSIBLY disagree with you and be a good person. You assume that people who disagree with you have NEVER endured any hardship, discrimination, or even sexual confusion in their own lives. But, hey, good job on spreading your own hate around.
You know why those 82 words piss me off? It's because of how holier-than-thou you lot (by which I mean 'advocates') get about it. You present your own bigotry, hatred, and intolerance and shove it down everyone else's throat and demand we be thankful for being enlightened. And you do this to one of the most tolerant and progressive hobbies out there. Did it not even occur to you that the main reason people play games is to GET AWAY from crap like this?
So yes, you're pushing your agenda, transparently so, because you cannot rest until you've injected your point of view on sexuality onto every last person on Earth - and damn them if they just don't want to deal with it. As far as I know, no one has said D&D (and all RPGs) shouldn't be inclusive... we just don't want you to be an ass about it.
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Kyrel
Learned Scribe
151 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2014 : 23:48:31
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Wooly. Your wrote: "acknowledging that not everyone is the same, and saying all are welcome..." As I read this, this is not related or restricted to whether or not gays, lesbians, bi-sexuals, and transexuals are being descriminated against. The argument/statement can be related to all groups who stand outside of the "norm". Sure, the LGBS group is certainly victims of discrimination in many places. It's sad and pointless, but they are not the only ones to suffer this fate, though they are one of the largest of the minority groups to suffer in that way, or as severely. The degree of discrimination is not a requisite for the statement, as you write it, though. It is enough that one does not conform to the norms of the majority, regardless of how the person differs, be it sexual orientation or in some other manner.
Now, I'll grant you that other people disagree with me on whether or not this enriches the setting or not. I'm not saying otherwise. But I simply disagree, as people are wont to do on the internet. For those who find that this paragraph enrich their game world and experience I say "good on you :-)". It just doesn't do anything for my experience of the setting, and it annoys me partially because I find it to be an intrusion of a real world politics issue into my game world, which I'd rather have been without, even if I agree that everyone should be wellcommed into the RPG community, if they share the interest in the hobby. It really ought to be implicit though.
As a P.S. let me add that my earlier posts were based on me normally associating the "LGBT" expression with Transgender people exclusively. In other words not including gay and bi individuals. Reason is that I have so far only encountered the abbreviation in relation to debates related to transgendered individuals. Silly mistake. I know. Naturally this mental mixup on my behalf affects my earlier references to the size of the demographic, and naturally it means that the LGBT group make up a larger portion of the customer base, than Transgendered individuals only. I still doubt that the LGBT group makes for a large part of the customer base, though it is, of course, present. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 00:01:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyrel
As a P.S. let me add that my earlier posts were based on me normally associating the "LGBT" expression with Transgender people exclusively. In other words not including gay and bi individuals. Reason is that I have so far only encountered the abbreviation in relation to debates related to transgendered individuals. Silly mistake. I know. Naturally this mental mixup on my behalf affects my earlier references to the size of the demographic, and naturally it means that the LGBT group make up a larger portion of the customer base, than Transgendered individuals only. I still doubt that the LGBT group makes for a large part of the customer base, though it is, of course, present.
Interesting, considering the LGB stands for lesbian, gay, and bi. But as you said, a mistake. You might actually be surprised of how many LGBT gamers there are out there, and roughly 1.5 billion Americans alone identify as transgender alone, and that's only including those who are "out" about it. Around 1%-2% of the U.S population identify as asexual, and that amount is growing the more people learn about what asexuality is. That may not sound like a lot, but 1% equals around 3 million people. And this is only in the U.S.
So there are probably a lot of "queer" gamers out there  |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Jaynz
Acolyte
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 00:26:46
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Corellons, the ENTIRE non-straight population of the United States is less than four percent. And that isn't to say that that percent should be shunned (and, again, I defy you to show me a gaming company that's publically done this since 1973)... but I do think that pandering to that small percentage and simultaneously calling the 96 percent heteros a bunch of 'privileged bigots' and 'homophobes' and anything else Roseweave wants to throw out there, isn't exactly a positive contribution to gaming either. Yet that's exactly what happened thanks to WOTC's pandering.
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 00:36:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Jaynz
quote:
You benefit from the privilege afforded to you by not being of those "lifestyles" or "genders". It's your duty as a decent human being to treat everyone as you would another...
And I do. And here's the trick. I don't sum up an entire person by what sort of sexual identity they have.I do not see the need to give special and unique and favored status above all else to any single group.
Urgh. The whole point of being a marginalised group is that we receive less than favoured status. In the world of fantasy and geek stuff in general, we are woefully under-represented. Full stop. What you're arguing for here is defense of a heteronormative, cisnormative status-quo.
The "special treatment" concept is fallacy and I'd ask you not to use it in future. We get negative special treatment in the first place. That's what discrimination/oppression is. It's not asking for "special treatment" to actually have it acknowledged that we ****ing exist. It's partly because people like you react like this incessantly that people like me have so few heroes. People like you very directly hurt people like me.
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I do not see the need to /bullet-point/ all the various gender-identities that are going around in an effort to be inclusive.
It doesn't bullet point the various gender identities. It doesn't use terms like transwoman, genderqueer, agender etc. It simply acknowledges that in the context of the realms, they exist, and there is a cultural precedent for them, unlike in many faux-medieval fantasy settings.
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You see, oddly enough I took for granted the stated 'anyone can play what they want' and have been doing that for years. I never needed anyone to give me a 'to do quota list' of who should be included and by how much lest I be called a 'bigot', which you're so instantly want to do. I just let people be.
You're arguing the same nonsense as "racial colourblindness" which has been literally scientifically proven to be a form of racism in of itself. How about you actually listen to people like me and how we feel about how you're treating and representing us, instead of deciding how we need to be rerpresented?
Most of us played whatever, regardless. But it doesn't change the fact that we were doing something that was not officially acknowledged in the lore, and this is a step towards doing so. Erasure is a huge problem, and representation is important. This minor acknowledgement, while imperfect, is huge, because it gives LGBT a level of visibility within gaming that simply was not there before. That's important. If you don't think it's important - it's because you don't give a shit about LGBT people. Sorry, but it's true.
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This so-called 'inclusive' statement really isn't.[ It's pandering, and it saddens me greatly that your own need for validation and affirmation can be satisfied by something so shallow, so blatant, and so pointless. And now there's a demand that EVERY game book effectively has a 'Gays (etc.) can play too!" sticker on the front cover.
Okay, first off, get ****ed. From what I can gather, you are not queer, so you don't get to judge how we handle our oppression or call us "shallow" for appreciating the few breadcrumbs we actually get. You're being insulting, demeaning, dehumanising. I'm telling you as a queer person with a lot of experience with queer gamers and the community in general, that we appreciate this. You, as someone who is not queer, are telling us we are wrong.
You are painting us in the wrong for CRAVING affirmation. Well you know what - you try have your identity erased and censured in the mainstream media for basically ever and see how you feel about it. It's not nice. And painting us as being the ones with emotional issues is seriously ****ing homophobic for any number of reasons, the most prominent being is that it tries to frame the oppressed group as being in the fault - and not the people who continually erase us or refuse to include us in fictional media. This is an advanced form of victim blaming. It is bad that people exclude LGBT characters and culture.
What you're doing. Is oppressive. It is not your place to even comment on it. You are trying to shame LGBT people into feeling bad about being represented. It's a silencing tactic. This is oppression.
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Personally, I find it sad and ridiculous.
You're not queer, so why is your opinion worth a crap? Like seriously there's 2 paragraphs in the whole book dedicated to the LGBT community(and hell, those parts of the straight/cis community that just want to experiment, not to mention see the concept of Correlon brought back in line with the original) and you're bitching. This, stacked up against decades of "pandering" to cishets in the lore with something like 99.9% of characters being straight & cisgender, at least taken from the actual source material and not Ed's comments which often contradict what is written.
What I find sad and ridiculous is the extreme lack of inclusion present in sci-fi & fantasy and how defensive some bigots get when this is challenged.
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And I find those who NEED that affirmation, to this degree, to the exclusion of all other minorities (and you may ask the Jews about how they've never been oppressed in history), also quite sad and ridiculous.
Okay, so basically you find like, almost the ENTIRE LGBT community to be "quite sad and ridiculous" because most of us really do need this "affirmation", i.e. actual inclusion.
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But I guess from now on, to be 'included', you have to be specifically pointed out.
Yes, absolutely, wherever possible.
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So tell me, where is the paragraph that lets Latinos play? or Blacks? Or Jews? Or Christians for that matter (since the gaming hobby has been deliberately exclusive of them as a whole for decades now)? How about women? Where's the paragraph saying "You don't need to be confined to the notion that all heroes are men"?
First off, racial diversity is a problem within these games too. The Africa proxy in the realms is greatly dwarfed by the Indo-European styled lands, for example. But none the less, clearly, characters of various skintones and cultures are depicted within the Realms and over D&D verses. Since they are not the real world, you do not have direct proxies of specific ethnicities. However think of it this way - do you have characters in the lore that could be played by a Latina? Or a black person? Or a jewish person? If yes, then it's not overly excludey.
It is a problem that our fantasy products do tend to be overly eurocentric - and that is something that needs addressing, but it's more difficult as writing about other cultures from the perspective of white europeans/americans can venture into problematic territory in it's own way. So generally, we at least try to depict a wide range of skin tones, and at least suggest the presence of equivalent cultures/ethnicities (Gurs being Roma proxies etc.) so that as large a group as possible can imagine themselves in that world.
You can't compare this to sexuality because when you're dealing with humans or anything humanoids, sexuality and gender identities are a constant. They're just there. Whereas with race and ethnicity and culture it depends WHERE you are, with sexuality, it does not. OR at least should not - again, many people make the assumption that faux-medieval settings are automatically homophobia. In 2 paragraphs, WotC managed to clear that up. Done and dusted.
But you weren't looking for an actual answer, were you? You were just looking to silence LGBT people who don't fall in line with the idea of you being to claim that you're inclusive while speaking out against attempts of inclusion.
Because, here's the thing. I don't believe for a MOMENT that you lot just want 'inclusion'.
That "we lot". Lol, who is "we lot"? And who are you to say what you're want?
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You've had that all along. What you want is 'special snowflake status',
Oh my god, **** off, you intolerable little man. And no we have not
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and to strut around saying 'we're finally recognized under this cis-normal (itself an insult)society'.
It's cis-normative. And no it's not an insult. Cis is derived from Latin, being the reverse of trans. It's just a shorter way of writing not-trans. It means that our culture has a very strong expectation of people conforming to their birth sex. Of course, this can affect cisgender people as well by reinforcing oppressive gender roles - men can't wear dresses, women can't be strong etc.
You literally don't even know what I'm talking about yet you're telling me you know better. This just demonstrates how impossible arrogant and entitled you are. You feel entitled not only to your own media, but anything that dares make mention of us. You feel entitled to police us. That is oppression. When you stop us speaking out, you stop us drawing attention to our life experiences which involve real life violence and exclusion. You don't give that queer kid the leg up he needs to know he can be a superhero too and it's going to be okay. These things have effects.
Again. If you're talking down to a genuinely oppressed, marginalised group telling them what they really want and trying to make them out to be a menace. This is an age old bigoted tactic. And you don't get to decide what you're inclusive to people like me. I do. I would not play in your games because I would not feel welcome playing under someone who thought like this. You are a bigot.
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You act like small children desperate for attention and approval - when all you really need to do is GROW UP. Want to be accepted as a gamer? Then try being a gamer - no hyphens necessary.
Don't tell me what to do. I'm not the one who needs to do anything here, anywhere - WotC is recognising that I exist, as a queer transwoman. You're the one bitching about it, remember? Grow up, get with the times, and learn to listen to others outside of your extremely narrow band of life experiences. Most of your argument is one big silencing tactic, and it's disgusting.
Don't ever, ever talk to a queer person and tell them their issues or how to approach them. You are not oppressed. It is not your place. Show some respect.
We are not weak. You are sheltered. Whatever negative life experiences you have, we can have almost all of them on top of our own. Some of us have literally been through a hell you can't imagine. For some transwomen it's so bad they literally run away to the military to try and escape from it. Consider that before you shout your ignorant mouth off next time. |
Edited by - Roseweave on 09 Aug 2014 00:39:43 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 00:41:58
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| I think it's far more than 4%, but even if it is only 4, considering %1 is roughly 3 million people, think of how much %4 is. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 00:44:25
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Just to be clear -
Talking about "pandering" to a group who suffer from extreme under-representation in the genre is queerphobic.
Calling us "special snowflakes" for wishing to be as visible as people like you are is queerphobic, and that term has some extremely transphobic connotations where it is outright used to deny he identities of transgender individuals.
Telling people to "Grow up" for arguing against queer oppression is queerphobic.
Claiming we desire "special treatment" when we are treated worse than others to begin with is queerphobic.
Painting queer people as part of some conspiracy or in some way to blame for their oppression is queerphobic.
Claiming queer people have had "equal representation" in a franchise where less than 1% of the characters in the lore/novels can even be read as queer is queerphobic.
Telling queer people how to deal with their own oppression and lack of representation is queerphobic.
If my own words are not enough, I can direct you to any number of resources. That is, if you give a crap about what queer people have to say about their experiences. As far as I can tell you'd much rather see our voices erased and talk over us. |
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 00:46:53
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Trans people are only a tiny minority, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't be excluded. After all, you never know how much of the population might turn out to be trans to some degree if there was no stigma, plus trans people inherently have stories to tell because of their journies - it wouldn't be a terrible thing if we were over-represented. There is a relatively very high number of trans people involved in table top gaming, for a number of reasons. There are roughly 700,000 transgender people in the US. I'm willing to bet there's at least 20,000 potential trans customers for D&D 5E - probably far more in the US, and that's to start off with.
It's about widening your market - if D&D gets a reputation for being queer inclusive - more queer people will play it. After all, there are movies made about the trans experience, and people watch them, so perhaps having more of that in D&D will attract new people, people who are trans or just interested?
What you have to remember is that queer people have been erased from 100 years of media, and much of that is still in circulation today, still recommended to people, available to buy on DVD, standing side by side with our modern stuff which STILL hasn't gotten it right. So even if we started over-representing LGBT individuals with our current media, it would take a very long time to catch up. We can't change the fact that there was never a classic lesbian disney princess, for example. |
Edited by - Roseweave on 09 Aug 2014 00:49:52 |
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Jaynz
Acolyte
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 00:55:16
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I'm going to ignore Roseweave from now on, because I have better things to do with my time than continue to respond to a hateful bigot who is far, far worse than any other gamer I've ever known of any stripe. Here's a hint, Roseweave, if the WHOLE WORLD seems against you, it's probably YOU that's the one at fault. YOU and your desperate search for martyrdom are what's at fault. I don't have any personal problem with anyone of alternative sexual persuasion - and you have no IDEA what my persuasion really is, I'll add - but I do have a problem with YOU. Let that sink in. You are as big of a bigot as Hamas, the KKK, and the KoC ever were.
Corellons. Again, I wasn't saying the number to be dismissive, just to point out the lack of sense in adopting Roseweave's (et al)'s rather blatant anti-male, anti-straight position for the sake of such a relatively small audience. 1.54 million people is a sizable potential demographic, of course, but trying to capture them in a way that alienates, let's say, only a fraction of the OTHER 350,000,000 people is nonsensical. D&D5E could have shown itself to be inclusive by actually being inclusive, as other games, including D&D1E, I'll note, have done.
But that wasn't enough for people like Rosewave, who have made it perfectly clear that nothing will ever, ever be enough. It's foolish and suicidal to try to appease a group of people (again, only advocates like Roseweave here) who cannot and will not be appeased - not so long as she gets to spread her vile hatred towards everyone. That is why this whole exercise has been so pointless.
And it was done at the expense of the game itself - furthering the insult to gamers.
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 00:57:27
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I won't get entangled in this, but if someone wants to be viewed as a GAYmer then that is their choice. As for giving advice to anyone based on anything, it is everyones place to possibly do that. Your right I am a white cis male but I grew up in an area that was very much anti jewish . I don't know what it is like to have gender discrimination but I do not what it is like to have to hide that am into bdsm because folks thought I was beating up my g/f when she was a pain slut.
Look I may not have your specific narrow issue, but I have things that can be related with, I am oppressed in my own way because I am a male stuck in a country that thinks it is not okay or a male to raise kids or cry. Yes I have certain so called privileges, but that does not disqualify me or my own experiences if you assume because of my gender and skin tone that I have nothing in my entire lifespan to relate to what you have had to deal wiht, or family members I have had to watch deal with and struggle with in this having a catholic gay uncle.
You are right, I am not you, but I have eyes to watch, and ears to listen with. I have seen the struggle of others, and have seen what worked and what back fired. Don't use your condition to belittle others just because they were born a certain way they had no control over either, and dis-value their advice.
Now for you Jaynze.... please knock your crap off , you seven post random coward. If you have a main account then post under it and show yourself, if your new too the community then silence yourself you have not earned the respect yet to say such things and get away with it. Your contributions have been minimal and cowardly so far to the community and harassing those who are much more established then yourself and deserve support. |
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Jaynz
Acolyte
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 00:57:55
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And yes, I'll point out that I'm new here - I came here because of my fonts and I wanted to see them updated, and maybe see about what's going to be needed for the 5th edition versions. I got sucked into this thread because, really, I'm tired of the whole thing.
This, however, is the ONLY reason Roseweave (and others) is here. So, again, let that sink in.
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 00:58:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Jaynz
And, and another thing miss "I like to call everyone a bigot and shame them so I win all discussions." You made a whole bunch of assumptions on your own here. You first claim to speak for ALL non-straight people, when this thread has examples that directly conflict with your own statements. You assume that EVERYONE who isn't on board with this is a bigot - or self-loathing, because they can't POSSIBLY disagree with you and be a good person. You assume that people who disagree with you have NEVER endured any hardship, discrimination, or even sexual confusion in their own lives. But, hey, good job on spreading your own hate around.
Honey, I read what you said and you used any number of stereotypical silencing tactics.
If you don't want to be labelled a bigot - then actually listen to what I'm saying, respect what I'm saying and don't use terminology that has been used to silence people like me for yonks. You can't keep claiming you're pro-LGBT if you refuse to listen to anyone who's LGBT.
After all - how would you know?
quote:
You know why those 82 words piss me off? It's because of how holier-than-thou you lot (by which I mean 'advocates') get about it.
Oh yes, advocates makes it better. What terrible people advocating for a marginalised group. Plus given most queer people are their own advocates, you've basically extended the reach of your ire from most of the queer community(ignoring the self loathing & apolitical parts), to the queer community plus allies. Putting you in at like, 20% of the population or so. Well done. Keep it up and you won't be hating on a minority anymore, and that makes it okay! Just like misogyny.
quote:
You present your own bigotry, hatred, and intolerance and shove it down everyone else's throat and demand we be thankful for being enlightened. And you do this to one of the most tolerant and progressive hobbies out there. Did it not even occur to you that the main reason people play games is to GET AWAY from crap like this?
I'm sorry, we'll make sure to keep our suffering to a minimum so it doesn't inconvenience you in future.
Also, Newsflash: You are not oppressed. Not as a general group, going by anything you've mentioned. I am. Also, queer people play these things too. To get away from people like you. Consider that for a second. Who do you think needs the escapism more? You already live in a world designed for you first and foremost.
You are not progressive.
quote:
So yes, you're pushing your agenda, transparently so, because you cannot rest until you've injected your point of view on sexuality onto every last person on Earth - and damn them if they just don't want to deal with it. As far as I know, no one has said D&D (and all RPGs) shouldn't be inclusive... we just don't want you to be an ass about it.
Oh no THE GAY AGENDA rears it's ugly head. Funny, for someone defending a hobby as progressive, you sure are throwing out a lot of bigoted, colonialist, socially conservative terms and ideas.
quote:
It just doesn't do anything for my experience of the setting, and it annoys me partially because I find it to be an intrusion of a real world politics issue into my game world, which I'd rather have been without, even if I agree that everyone should be wellcommed into the RPG community, if they share the interest in the hobby. It really ought to be implicit though.
The existence of queer people is not inherently "political". The fact that you can get annoyed over this just showcases how immensely privileged you are.
I can't get over the "I need to hide away from the gay rights thing! It's oppressing me!" act. I mean really what the **** how can you even say that and not realise the problem. They need to start teaching Oppression theory and basic sociology and shit in school. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 01:02:05
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By any measure, the tabletop RPG industry is small; almost vanishingly so.
Anything that helps grow the number of gamers is a good thing.
Suggesting that the population of LGBT (along with any other group, however you define them) is so small that any form of reaching out to them is pandering or political correctness is to miss the point. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 01:02:17
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quote:
I'm going to ignore Roseweave from now on, because I have better things to do with my time than continue to respond to a hateful bigot who is far, far worse than any other gamer I've ever known of any stripe. Here's a hint, Roseweave, if the WHOLE WORLD seems against you, it's probably YOU that's the one at fault.
Actually right now you are the one that's at fault. WotC have my back.
You're just an ignorant, hateful person who doesn't understand what oppression is. Unfortunately common human sub-type, but it doesn't make you right.
quote:
You are as big of a bigot as Hamas, the KKK, and the KoC ever were.
I like how you put Hamas first, which shows up where you're coming from pretty well.
Please answer me this - who exactly am I oppressing, and how?
quote:
But that wasn't enough for people like Rosewave, who have made it perfectly clear that nothing will ever, ever be enough.
Actually, I've been saying I appreciate what they've done with 5E thus far. You're the one bitching about it remember?
I think you're the one nothing is ever good for. It's not enough that you get to the be main character in like 90% of sci-fi and fantasy stuff. You have to bitch about the tiny bread crumbs that we get. If that's not entitlement - I don't know what is.
quote:
And it was done at the expense of the game itself - furthering the insult to gamers.
It's literally two paragraphs and the person most offended here is a genuinely pretty crappy person who refuses to check his own privilege.
And for the last time, not acknowledging the existence of a group which by rights should exist in the Realms or whatever, is erasure, not inclusive. As a queer person I am telling you this. As a straight person, you are telling me your view is more important than mine on issues that affect me and not you. You elevate your own sheltered annoyance over this over the representation of a highly excluded and marginalised group.
So basically, you're a dick.
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 01:04:01
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quote:
And yes, I'll point out that I'm new here - I came here because of my fonts and I wanted to see them updated, and maybe see about what's going to be needed for the 5th edition versions. I got sucked into this thread because, really, I'm tired of the whole thing.
Oh poooor you. It must be so terrible for you. Meanwhile, I'm afraid to go outside for a walk at night because there are some loud people outside who might attack me if I do, but would otherwise ignore me if I was, well, you.
And I'm anti-male now, wut? When I pointed out an instance of how sexism/transphobia can affect men in that they're not culturally "allowed" to wear dresses.
I think you'd like this comic though -
http://www.manfeels-park.com/comic/dolphin-vegan-soul/ |
Edited by - Roseweave on 09 Aug 2014 01:07:07 |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 01:05:41
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Rose I was addressing you also.
quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer
I won't get entangled in this, but if someone wants to be viewed as a GAYmer then that is their choice. As for giving advice to anyone based on anything, it is everyones place to possibly do that. Your right I am a white cis male but I grew up in an area that was very much anti jewish . I don't know what it is like to have gender discrimination but I do not what it is like to have to hide that am into bdsm because folks thought I was beating up my g/f when she was a pain slut.
Look I may not have your specific narrow issue, but I have things that can be related with, I am oppressed in my own way because I am a male stuck in a country that thinks it is not okay or a male to raise kids or cry. Yes I have certain so called privileges, but that does not disqualify me or my own experiences if you assume because of my gender and skin tone that I have nothing in my entire lifespan to relate to what you have had to deal wiht, or family members I have had to watch deal with and struggle with in this having a catholic gay uncle.
You are right, I am not you, but I have eyes to watch, and ears to listen with. I have seen the struggle of others, and have seen what worked and what back fired. Don't use your condition to belittle others just because they were born a certain way they had no control over either, and dis-value their advice.
Now for you Jaynze.... please knock your crap off , you seven post random coward. If you have a main account then post under it and show yourself, if your new too the community then silence yourself you have not earned the respect yet to say such things and get away with it. Your contributions have been minimal and cowardly so far to the community and harassing those who are much more established then yourself and deserve support.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 01:08:38
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| How would you suggest they go about being inclusive, then? I think the paragraphs might be insulting even to some queers, because it might be seen as isolating, but I also feel Wizards is making an honest attempt to be more inviting to other gamers. Granted, the LGBTQ community of gamers has been playing their own games for decades, with or without anything from WotC, but now they're receiving a nod from Wizards that says "we know you're out there, and we want to include you." Including LGBT is not excluding the cis population. We are all free to make binary or non-binary characters, but by presenting this opportunity, Wizards is not only openly expanding game options, but the Realms itself, because it shows that the Realms is home to those who, in this world, would identify as LGBTQ. I think that's what Wizards was trying to do. Could they have done it differently? Maybe, but the important thing is, is that they got it out there. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 01:09:23
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| If you're seriously telling me I'm "belittling" people for being cis or whatever, then no. The problem is that people are talking over queer rights issues that affect queer people. It's a big part of autonomy and ending oppression that we get to dictate what works for us, not people who are not affected by it. You've seen what's worked and hasn't from your perspective, which is fallible. I've seen a lot too. And I can tell you that a big part of the key to ending oppression is to not police people who have difficulties you do not have for yourself. |
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 01:10:42
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Best way for Wizards to be inclusive, tbh, would be to send someone out to tie Jaynz's hands together whenever he loads up a thread about issues that don't pertain to him and his man-feels.
I mean, just IMO. |
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I think WOTC entered the modern age
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