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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
 Posted - 23 May 2014 : 05:08:10
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If so does he support it wholeheartedly? Also, are there fiendish clerics of Tempus running around on both sides?
Tempus is an interesting God IMO. He's both Evil and Good, Lawful and Chaotic...quite the enigma.
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2014 : 05:25:08
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| No he does NOT support the blood war, as they fight just for the sake of fight. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2014 : 05:51:21
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| No they do not "fight " just for the sake of fighting. They fight because LAW and Chaos do not mix, so they fight each other. Being as he is a LG diety, I would say this falls under the, if evil is to busy fighting evil then it is better then evil messing around with my good followers. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1885 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2014 : 07:54:34
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| Tempus is CN. I think you misread that as Tyr. Anyway, I don't think he 'supports' the Blood War per se, though I'm sure he's happy to get involved on some level. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2526 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2014 : 12:20:12
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He probably doesn't support the "main line" Blood War directly. But still have fun watching.  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2014 : 14:41:36
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| And I highly doubt that he would grant any fiend clerics spells |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2014 : 15:32:24
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
He probably doesn't support the "main line" Blood War directly. But still have fun watching.
But how could he not? It's the biggest war out there going on for the longest it's got to be a huge source of divine power for him. |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2014 : 15:34:12
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
And I highly doubt that he would grant any fiend clerics spells
Well ok but if he's chaotic neutral he would have a higher chance of doing this then granting a Modron clerical spells. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6453 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2014 : 15:43:23
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Its not usually based on Faerun. Its not generally participated in by material plane beings with souls.
And generally when it comes to gods people confuse the wants of a god with the wants of the church.
Imagine a priest of Tempus asking through prayer for a sign as to whether he should embark upon a glorious mission to take part in the Blood War. He sees a white horse running through the fields out of his window and takes this as a sign from Tempus that he should hire mercs, gather worshippers and begin immediately.
A month later as the priest and his forces are about to set off a rival priest with worshippers leaving his church on this mission prays to Tempus asking what the outcome of this venture will be. He sees a black horse running through the field and takes this as a sign from Tempus that this will be a failure.
Both spotted valid manifestations from their god about the outcome, both got conflicting answers. What does Tempus himself feel, he probably neither knows about either priest's intentions nor does he care.
They are worshippers but they are far beneath him as a god and why would he ever bother to speak to them personally unless he wanted them to do something for him.
In my games i never have the gods do anything or say anything directly to priests (except maybe the head of the church and even then it might only be a single word). They are far too busy with divine matters to bother with material plane troubles.
The organised churches of that god handle such matters, they see to it that people obey church policy. Those that rebel are dealt with and everyone assumes they were heretics because the church won. If the rebels win then they change the church and establish new policy and the old ways become heretical. The god doesnt care either way unless it grossly violates what he stands for and therefore gives power to another god (for instance the church of Eldath advocating wholesale murder).
We have too much top down focus on the realms thanks to all this chosen nonsense and sundering stuff. Take it back to the little guy and keep gods out of it because realisitically the gods couldnt give two hoots about their worshippers as long as they keep getting worshipped. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2014 : 17:51:31
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EDIT: I would not consider Tempus "both evil and good". He is neither evil or good. Just as war is not inherently good or evil. He is the embodiment of conflict without good or evil involved. He is Neutral not a combination of good and evil. (as nebulous and imprecise as those alignment descriptors are!)
I believe the Gods do not involve themselves in the Blood War if we are viewing it as the one that occurs in the "Great Wheel" cosmology/ universe. (This is stated, I think, in a Planescape product. I could try to find the quote if more needs to be said...)
I do not think there is a canon answer. But my opinion would be that Tempus does not concern himself with the wars of the planes. I also don't think he likes pointless war, despite being a war god. War is good and glorious but should happen for a reason.
(These are my thoughts not an absolute truth) Tempus also has worshipers in Toril and the crystal sphere controlled by Ao. He is the war God of Faerun. I do not think wars on the planes give him power or are under his purview. It is my belief/understanding that Gods get power from their worshipers and maybe from the existence of their portfolio in the places where they are worshiped. (So if Gods get power from their portfolio Tempus would then gain power from war and battle existing in Faerun and its crystal sphere not elsewhere)
I base how Gods CAN communicate with their followers on how a commune spell works. They don't necessarily get that much info presented in a way a mortal can comprehend. For example when Halisstra communes with Eilistraee in War of the Spider Queen she misunderstands Eilistraee's message. Other texts show the Gods (such as Cyric) directly commanding their worshipers but I would personally prefer that they do not. Powers/deities are a different sort of entity than mortals who we cannot properly understand! |
Edited by - MrHedgehog on 23 May 2014 17:55:56 |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2014 : 22:38:51
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
I believe the Gods do not involve themselves in the Blood War if we are viewing it as the one that occurs in the "Great Wheel" cosmology/ universe. (This is stated, I think, in a Planescape product. I could try to find the quote if more needs to be said...)
They no longer become active in the blood war personally, marching accross the battlefields in all their divine glory and trampling rival fiendish armies like ants.
However many deities still have stakes in the blood war and provide troops and logistic support to their favored site. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8066 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2014 : 23:04:23
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The Blood War has spanned half of eternity, all the Lower Planes, and countless worlds. It has touched nearly every D&D setting and been attributed to destroying many others. It a a constant and fundamental facet of the D&D cosmos.
Tempus is a great and mighty deity, the god of war on a very interesting world. In Planescape terms, Tempus is a Greater Power on a single Prime. That is all. His station does not allow him to govern any portfolio on other worlds - Krynn and Oerth and other worlds all have their own gods of war, or maybe they dont, but Tempus has no power (and gains no power) from any wars which may be fought. He has even less power than that (due to the lack of mortal souls to worship him) on other planes, especially the Lower Planes where other Powers actively maintain their own interests.
Tyr is a little better off, being (apparently) an aspect of some many-worlds Tyr. But again, he has no power outside of his own Prime playgrounds.
Besides - Asmodeus sort of ultimately commands the obedience of every devil in the cosmos (in theory), and would certainly not want to share his fiends with some upstart godling from some pretentious Prime. Demons arent unified under any common banner, but Im sure some of the most powerful - Lolth, Pazuzu, etc - wouldnt tolerate Tempus interloping on their precious worldly worshippers (drow, etc).
Tempus has a history of having to fight other local war gods from time to time just to hold his own portfolio. He wouldnt stand a chance trying to best godlike archfiends in their own turf. |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12229 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2014 : 00:17:57
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
He probably doesn't support the "main line" Blood War directly. But still have fun watching.
But how could he not? It's the biggest war out there going on for the longest it's got to be a huge source of divine power for him.
Only if the people involved had a belief in him. Just because there's a battle does not mean every war god gets some divine power from it. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2014 : 00:19:02
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| While you might have individual clerics of Tempus involved in the Blood War, no deity -including Tempus- has any direct, active involvement in the Blood War. Very early on in planar history gods did, but lets just say that things happened and the gods collectively withdrew out of genuine worry (some legends state that the 'loths started planetary scale slaughter of the worshipers of those gods most involved, or as an example they starved a god to death by destruction of his worshipers' faith, and there are other rumors behind what happened as well, but the end result is the same). |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2014 : 02:43:47
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
EDIT: I would not consider Tempus "both evil and good". He is neither evil or good. Just as war is not inherently good or evil. He is the embodiment of conflict without good or evil involved. He is Neutral not a combination of good and evil. (as nebulous and imprecise as those alignment descriptors are!)
Fair enough but do you consider him Chaotic or Lawful? His wright ups say he is Chaotic Nuetral which I interpret as him supporting the Chaos that War brings...
Imo it would make sense he would have worshipers spanning other worlds and the outplanes . I mean if other Gods do why not him? I could see various Slaadi tribes in Limbo worshipping Tempus...
quote:
I believe the Gods do not involve themselves in the Blood War if we are viewing it as the one that occurs in the "Great Wheel" cosmology/ universe. (This is stated, I think, in a Planescape product. I could try to find the quote if more needs to be said...)
I do not think there is a canon answer. But my opinion would be that Tempus does not concern himself with the wars of the planes. I also don't think he likes pointless war, despite being a war god. War is good and glorious but should happen for a reason.
Well perhaps if what you are saying is true and there is evidence that you are correct, then Tempus has goods tendencies, perhaps even lawful tendencies.
quote:
(These are my thoughts not an absolute truth) Tempus also has worshipers in Toril and the crystal sphere controlled by Ao. He is the war God of Faerun. I do not think wars on the planes give him power or are under his purview. It is my belief/understanding that Gods get power from their worshipers and maybe from the existence of their portfolio in the places where they are worshiped. (So if Gods get power from their portfolio Tempus would then gain power from war and battle existing in Faerun and its crystal sphere not elsewhere)
I base how Gods CAN communicate with their followers on how a commune spell works. They don't necessarily get that much info presented in a way a mortal can comprehend. For example when Halisstra communes with Eilistraee in War of the Spider Queen she misunderstands Eilistraee's message. Other texts show the Gods (such as Cyric) directly commanding their worshipers but I would personally prefer that they do not. Powers/deities are a different sort of entity than mortals who we cannot properly understand!
True I cant argue wwith you here. |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2014 : 03:47:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The Blood War has spanned half of eternity, all the Lower Planes, and countless worlds. It has touched nearly every D&D setting and been attributed to destroying many others. It a a constant and fundamental facet of the D&D cosmos.
Tempus is a great and mighty deity, the god of war on a very interesting world. In Planescape terms, Tempus is a Greater Power on a single Prime. That is all. His station does not allow him to govern any portfolio on other worlds - Krynn and Oerth and other worlds all have their own gods of war, or maybe they dont, but Tempus has no power (and gains no power) from any wars which may be fought. He has even less power than that (due to the lack of mortal souls to worship him) on other planes, especially the Lower Planes where other Powers actively maintain their own interests.
Tyr is a little better off, being (apparently) an aspect of some many-worlds Tyr. But again, he has no power outside of his own Prime playgrounds.
Besides - Asmodeus sort of ultimately commands the obedience of every devil in the cosmos (in theory), and would certainly not want to share his fiends with some upstart godling from some pretentious Prime. Demons arent unified under any common banner, but Im sure some of the most powerful - Lolth, Pazuzu, etc - wouldnt tolerate Tempus interloping on their precious worldly worshippers (drow, etc).
Tempus has a history of having to fight other local war gods from time to time just to hold his own portfolio. He wouldnt stand a chance trying to best godlike archfiends in their own turf.
Based on what the novels have shown us, Tempus would steamroll any archfiend on their home plane (except Asmodeus due to his equal Greater God status). |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2014 : 07:21:21
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jordanz that is an interesting point. Some single sphere deities seem to have worshipers across the planes (in Planescape it is noted that Celestian is especially popular by Planeswalkers, Cyric is mentioned as a favored God the Bleakers, and there are probably other cases I do not recall) I think it is implied that the deities in Planescape who are the main deities (Asgardian, Egyptian, Chinese, etc. ) are worshiped on many worlds and have far more worshipers than "single sphere deities".
What I said about Tempus theology on war, and therefore his views on the blood war, were my own thoughts not based on any canonical statements. It is what I imagine a neutral war God would believe. I think this because he is a counterpoint to Targus/Garagos who supported pillaging and pointless combat. Fighting for its own sake rather than with a purpose. It has seemed implied he has a less blood and more balanced/reasonable/logical view on war than Garagos. Tempus seems more controlled than that hence his support of Red Knight.
Aspects of his dogma such as "Defend what you believe in lest they be swept away.", "Consider the consequences of the violence of war and do not wage war recklessly", and "Clerics are charged to keep warfare a thing of rules, respected reputation, and professional behavior minimizing uncontrolled bloodshed and working to eradicate feuding that extends that extends beyond a single dipsute or set of foes", and dictates against unfair or dishonrable combat (Source faiths and pantheons page 71) suggest a mindset that is incompatible with being involved in the Blood War. I always view him as a logical war god who sees war as part of existence but not something done without purpose.
The Blood War also seems pointlessly unending on an impossible to imagine cosmic scale. Powers/Gods/Goddesses with their vast intellects, ways of being, and understanding of the universe beyond the ken of mortals seem like they would generally have too much insight into the cosmos to enter into an unwinnable war.
Lilianviaten - I am not so sure Gods could "steamroll" archfiends. Although Gods are in theory more powerful they have different powers and capabilities that are not all fleshed out (Unreliable narrators with limited mortal understanding can't elucidate this for us) Have not Levistus and Set been feuding for a huge amount of time? Set is a Greater Power or Intermediate Power (in different source material) why has he not steam rolled Levistus? Why do Good deities not just show up and kill the archfiends? Or evil deities destroy archcelestials?
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Edited by - MrHedgehog on 24 May 2014 07:26:26 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1632 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2014 : 12:58:26
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| Actually war is inherintaly evil. But I agree Tempus has no interest in the hells or the abyss, so its not in his sphere usually. |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2014 : 23:29:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Actually war is inherintaly evil. But I agree Tempus has no interest in the hells or the abyss, so its not in his sphere usually.
That's debatable. Is a war of liberation or in self defense Evil? Someone mentioned earlier that War is above such subjective terms and now I'm starting to agree. |
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Does Tempus support the Blood War?
