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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Mar 2018 : 18:56:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Well, I didn't claim you meant Talfir came from Turami, or vice-verse, just that the separation had to occur in very ancient times, which why I described the original population as "Turami-Talfir", compare to the terms Indo-Iranians, or Indo-Europeans etc.
And I just think Eldath, might be just a Turami-Talfir deity, seeing her asociation with arguable cultural enclaves of both populations (ie the Moonshade Isles for Talfir (retained a Talfitic language), and the Eyes of Silvanus). With possibly Turami introducing Eldath to the Jhaamdath pantheon.
Again, I also suggested Eldath is quite probable a Fey Deity (probably being originally an Archfey or Primal Spirit), so it's possible both populations got the worship of Eldath from local Fey or Elves...
In my own 'racial migrations' theories I have it where the Talfir are a western offshoot on an even earlier group - the Cortae - which began in the middle Taan region. This group would have been driven-out and split by other migrating groups (like the Gur and proto-Tuigan), with some migrating west and becoming the Illu-Cortae (and very much like Celts), and then there was an eastern group - the Issa-Cortae (and that group is canon in K-T).
From the Illu-Cortae the Talfir sprang (along with a more southern branch that would eventually evolve into the Tethens). The Talfir were still mostly barbarians (Angardt), with one particular sub-group eventually becoming 'settled' (this group became part of Thaeravel, and later Ebenfar). Since I no longer think the Illuskans are related to this group at all, I will probably change the name when I get back to it. Screw it, I'll just change it right now - they were the Talfa-Cortae. The Illuskans are descended from immigrants from across the northern Trackless Sea, and thus, not even native Faerûnians.
The Turami were the original ethnic group for all of southern Faerûn - EVERYTHING below the Sea of Fallen Stars, from the Sword coast all the way to the the borders of old Imaskar were their 'stomping ground'. As various groups migrated into their territories, they were mostly pushed both south and west, until most of the surviving ethnic stock being located in the Chultan arm (The Tashalan Peoples). Further west these peoples would have wound-up mixing with the invasive Tabaxi (so that the folk of Sammarach are probably 50/50). To the north, one particular group were 'cut-off' from their southern brethren and were pushed in what is today Turmish, and they seem to have remained fairly 'racially pristine'.
In the Shaar, the Turami have mixed with many different bloodlines, including Imaskari, Mulan, Illuskan & Rus, even maybe even Netherese (which is a Gur derivative), and probably some unknowns - small groups kidnapped by the Imaskari from multiple worlds. Thus, today's 'Sharrans' are really a mixed bag of other ethnicities (although there may have been an original Sharran people along the southern coast, they were mostly folded into the Turami over time). Up until a few centuries ago, you may have been able to find fairly 'pure' ancient Sharran bloodlines within Dambrath, but that is no longer the case. I may blend this with the Durpari people at some point - not sure. I had the Durpari as an offshoot of Zakharan, but I no longer think thats optimal (they seem more Vedic). Thus, the Durpari may be a blend of ancient Sharran and Mar (the Vedic peoples who migrated out of Malatra into the Utter East).
LOL - our Indians became Indians! 
Or is it the Indians (Mar/Vedic) fused with the Indians (Sharrans/Native Americans) and created new Indians? (the Durpari) That's an odd blend of cultures that had ZERO to do with each other RW. I like it FOR that reason - it isn't like anything else I've heard of. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Mar 2018 18:49:00 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2018 : 19:57:07
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With the whole golden skinned thing, for the Mar people, I just can't help but wonder if their name isn't a corruption of sorts of Aasimar.... or even some OTHER term similar to aasimar to indicate a type of people mating with outer planar entities. Maybe this started in Langdarma, where they lived amongst devas, drank from blessed waterways, etc.... However some left, and in interacting with the regular world, perhaps they became corrupt (and possibly jaded/hardened more than usual because they weren't allowed to return to "Paradise"). The Mar act nothing like someone from a celestial bloodline.... but maybe that's because the whole "blood of the heavens" has been bred out of them. But, I really like the idea of the god-kings taking a third group and heading down to Zakhara after the Imaskari conflict, and. In fact, it could be something where for centuries Mulan slaves escaped Imaskar and headed south to find Langdarma where they were protected if they accepted peace. At the same time, maybe some of these escaped slaves ended up worshipping dark powers and bred with them because they couldn't get accepted or find Langdarma. I know Ysdar is some kind of devil known there, and according to faces of deception they were capturing beautiful slaves to sell in the outer planes.
Of course, I say all that, and I would also be perfectly acceptable for them to just be golden skinned because they're tanned. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2018 : 20:29:15
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well if you look at where the talfir are first mentioned (ebenfar) it's located right next to the border of isstosseffifil and given that land turned from jungle to barren wasteland overnight it is possible the talfir occupied isstosseffifil with the sarrukh and fled when the empire died (to the heartlands).
The sarrukh migration route is that they began in okoth and moved to the lake of steam before splitting and one group settling merrshaulk while the other settled isstosseffifil. If they had human slaves they would have taken them with them. Thus talfir, turami, and tashalan are evolved from the same racial stock (which has now vanished).
I know that doesn't marry up with your stuff but it's an easy way to explain Whelan being related to a language in the vilhon reach on a tiny island.
Except we are then completely ignoring the elven Empires that were EVERYWHERE between the fall of the Sarrukh and the rise of humanity.
Ebenfar's capital is in the High Moor - right in the middle of what would have been Miyeritar. Those other 'snakey' dudes (I have to look up the name*) were present there (and I believe still are), but not the Sarrukh. The Yuan-ti have a large presence in the Serpent Hills right next door, though.
*Ophidians |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Mar 2018 22:46:50 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2018 : 23:17:24
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There were a bunch of humans that were part of the Dragon Empires as well - they were in that anthology, Realms of the Elves, IIRC. That came post-Sarrukh but pre-Elf, and I would hazard to guess the Talfir may have gotten their 'leg up' on other humans magically during that time period. Humans weren't known to use magic before then, so one of my assumptions is that that is an Elven Bloodline trait, that has become so diluted over 25K years that the trait can be found in most humans today. The dragons may have been 'breeding' for it.
I just went looking for the story, to jog my memory - most humans were practically 'cavemen' at that time (-25,000 DR), but the ones that were part of the Dragon Empires seemed to be just as 'advanced' and magically capable as the Elves (and the story even states that the elves are surprised by this - they had considered the humans little more than animals up to that point). So I think it may be a very ancient 'fey heritage' thing that's just gotten so watered down now nearly anyone can do a little magic. Except for dwarves, because they have that 'Breed True' thing going on (see other thread). Well, no longer 'except for dwarves' because of the Thunder Blessing.
I think back then all magic was sorcery-based - it was something 'pulled from within', and not a matter of study and memorization. I think 'Wizardly' magic came to us through the Nether Scrolls, and that 'style' slowly replaced the more ancient 'High magic' of the Fey. So definitely a bloodline thing, through the elves, and because of that 'mixing' the dragons insisted upon (Dragons themselves practice Sorcery - scant few can do Wizardry, because of the components involved).
Then, millennia later, the Talfir have those bloodlines (still evident in the Incipient Clans from Secrets of the Magister - note those are all from the same region - the old 'Talfir Lands'). Its more of a 'natural talent' kind of thing. Then, in my theories about Thaeravel being mostly Talfir people is correct, we can see how that would be annoying to the Netherese to the north, since they had to put so much more effort into learning their magic.
I think a similar thing happened to the Imaskari, BTW. I think that a small portion of the Cortae remained within the Taan Lands, protected by local Elven tribes (fey), who then mixed with them, creating the 'Spirit Folk' that were the whole basis for the Guge lore in The Horde boxed set (note that the Imaskari burial grounds - Zanda Tholing - were within the boundaries of Guge, before it fell). Spirit Folk ruled over Guge (canon) and spirit folk are half-fey (also canon), and fey and elves are the same thing now, THUS, spirit folk are just an ancient bloodline type of half-elf. If the Imaskari themselves did not have some fey blood (and everything points to them having some), then they must have assigned some sort of special significance to persons who did (considering that they buried their KINGS in Guge... which was ruled by Spirit folk). In other words, Spirit Folk in Imaskar may have comprised some sort of 'Holy Caste' - like a hereditary priesthood (and since the Imaskari were obviously NOT big on religion, it stands to reason their culture would have needed some sort of substitute, in regards to things that normally fall under the purview of religion, like burials).
But I digress...
The idea is that some humans mixed with some Fey/Elves, a LONG time ago, and now we have these bloodlines, some stronger than others. I would assume the Talfir are one such, and it runs very strong in them (which unfortunately also makes it easy for them to become corrupted as well, by fiends and beings like Shar). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Mar 2018 23:19:34 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2018 : 02:29:22
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- dazzlerdal
I can understand not deity centric models for origins of ethinicities, but I think there is evidence Eldath would be a Turami-Talfir deity - I mean, there is evidence of her cult of the Moonshae Isles, that wasn't overtaken by the worship of the Earthmother.
Returning to Eyes of Silvanus, Eldath seems paticulary protective over Ilighon, as detailed in "The Vilhon Reach":
quote:
Eldath's Ring
Eldath, Goddess of the Singing Waters, serves as the
protector of Ilighôn, shielding it from direct naval attack.
In addition, the faith-magic zone extends two
miles from the ring on all sides.
Also, with Talfir being present in Anauroch, I think the Angardt (and possibly Rengarth) and Thaeravel like Markustay mentioned, could be at least partially Talfiric in origin.
It's also notable that the pantheon of the Rengarth (who became Goliaths), and by extension, probably Angardt, who split from them due their disposition towards Arcane magic (influenced de to micxing with Talfiric peoples?), as detailed in the "Goliaths of Faerun by de Bie and Costa" thread by Erik Scott de Bie and Tom Costa (Which was at least partially canonized by Brian R. James and Matt James "Monument of the Ancients" in Dungeon #170):
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10647
quote:
History: Deep in what is now the Plain of Standing Stones in Anauroch, there is a mountain range that was known as the Columns of the Sky during the Golden Age of the Netherese. These were some of the tallest mountain peaks of Netheril, stretching thousands of feet into the sky and creating a landmark that could be seen for hundreds of miles in every direction. To the Rengarth barbarians of that age, the slender peaks were the sacred home of the gods. From these peaks, the gods looked out upon their people, and the Rengarth punished those they found near the peaks, especially if they were found with animal skins or gems taken from “the hearts of their gods.”
In the days of Netheril’s fall, the climate became increasingly harsh and brought the Rengarth great suffering. Entire clans died along with the land itself. Gone were the days where their gods watched over them and shaped the world to their image. (In actuality, the wicked magic of the phaerimm was draining the land of life, turning it rapidly into a desert). Men young and old cursed the unforgiving heights of the sacred mountains, calling upon the gods to show themselves—to salvage the world they had abandoned. The Rengarth began to die out as the old religion crumbled, but a new sect of druids believed the gods and—more importantly—the land was testing them, seeing if their spirits would break with increasing chill and decreasing game. These new Rengarth iconoclasts wished to climb the sacred mountains and throw down the old superstitions of the past, and for this purpose they trained and trained to perfect themselves physically for the arduous task of scaling what was to them the sacred and most powerful peaks in the world.
Over many generations, an intrepid band of superior physical specimens emerged who could challenge the Columns of the Sky. The druids of the tribe told them to scour the peaks and remove every last belief or doubt about the gods and their mountains. This they set out to do, climbing peak after peak and struggling with mighty creatures who were not gods but flesh and blood, tooth and wing. Finally, they came to the last and greatest peak, and when they had scaled it they found what not even the wisest of them had expected—a sight which struck them dumb and thoughtless with awe.
What they saw is a matter of speculation and myth. Some claim they encountered all the gods assembled in one place, locked in a trance that must have lasted centuries. Some claim it was a ram-headed god named Kavaki and his allies, reshaping the world in their own image. Some say they found no gods but only the power of gods, which reshaped their bodies and their world entire. What is known for certain is that they had grown taller and stronger, their flesh become as stone and infused with gems that gleamed with divine power. They had become the first goliaths.
quote:
Religion: Kavaki is an aspect of Lathander that focuses on the youth, vitality, self-perfection, and above all athletics portions of the Morninglord’s portfolio, and whose clerics favor the Protection and Strength domains. The other gods of the goliaths were Lathander’s allies at the time of the Dawn Cataclysm, but have since changed. Kuliak the Dead Goddess was originally an aspect of Eldath (who would not supply Lathander and his allies with fresh water as they prepared for battle on principle), but has since been supplanted by first Jergal (who was nothing more than an interloper obeying the edicts of Myrkul) and now Kelemvor (who has taken a true interest in the goliaths and seeks to redeem Kuliak’s faith, especially among goliath exiles who favor the Fate and Travel domains). Manethek the Wise Hunter is an aspect of Gwaeron Windstrom (sent by Mielikki to assist Lathander and whose clerics favor the Animal and Knowledge domains). Naki-Uthal, the Brave Climber is an aspect of Shaundakul (whose clergy favor the Air and Travel domains), who was a close ally of the Morninglord prior to the Dawn Cataclysm, but was shown an image of Lathander’s folly by Selune and rejected the failed plans that led to the demise of most of his faithful in Myth Drannor. Theleya the Fertile One is an aspect of Chauntea (whose clergy favor the Plant and Renewal domains). Finally, Vanua the Harbringer of Woe was a masculine aspect of Tyche whose name was seized by Talos when she fell—his clergy favor the Destruction and Fire domains. Goliath exiles often refer to these deities by their “human names,” so as not to confuse the listener, but Gol-kaa holds to the traditional names.
It's notable Eldath is again also present in the Goliath/Rengarth pantheon, which seems somewhat separate from the Netherese pantheon (ie the presence of Lathander with no of Amaunator, although Lathander's solar aspects are lessened here, as well as Eldath being there percieved as at least somewhat goddess of death and dead instead of Jergal - who was explicedly stated to take over Kuliak's alias and role very late, when he allready was Myrkul's subordinate. While it's possible Eldath subsumed and/or absorbed Kuliak, the lore implies Kuliak was originally Eldath...)
-sleyvas
It's possible, seeing the language of Mar people, is "Devic", compare to Devas (both the Aasimon, and 4E version). Although aside from the possiblity you gavem it's also possible that the Celestial bloodline of the Mar people, is just so diluted, it's only affects them in very small ways, ie their golden skin.
- Markustay
Dunno if Durpar, and Durpari are just the equivalent of Indian people - they have traits of various Near Eastern cultures.
Most notably, Durpari have many, MANY odd Sumerian/Mesopotamian elements - for example, when Desert of Desolation was moved to the Realms, the Durpari specifically monotheistically worshipped Anu. Of the Mesopotamian pantheon. This quickly evolved/was retconned into the concept of Adama.
Adama though, curiously, also comes from a Sumerian word - meaning either the soil/earth (compare to Akkadian Adamatu - "Dark Red Soil"), Adama can also mean/describe the first group of humans, created by Enki.
(And yes, the name Adam, and the biblical character of the same, as well in part his story, ultimately derive from that...)
Although "Adamma", was a name of Canaanite goddess of Earth, whose name was also identified as another of Cybele's names in Phrygian insription.
Satama, the man who founded the Adama religion, is also seemingly named after the title Satam/Satmmu (SA.TAM), meaning "Official" (of the Temple).
Another connection is the alias of Gond among Durpari - Zionil, resembling in structure names of Sumerian deities, particulary Enlil.
The Grand History of the Realms states Imaskar was a civilisation founded by Durpari, and curiously, the Durpari warlord whose actions kickstarted largelly the start of Imaskar, Nemrut, is named after the Biblical figure of Nimrod - a spelling of his name essentially - who was a king in Mespotomania, of disputed historical identity.
To be fair, some think Sumerians might have originated from India, or north of India, before moving to Mesopotamia - this is notable in the name of Mount Meru, the holy cosmic mountain in Hindiusm, also known as Mount Sumeru in Sankrit, which was stated lie north of India, possibly in Tibet (were some also think Sumerians might had been, at least for some time).
[EDIT]
And to add about the Rengarth gods - while one could argue the Rengarth accepted new gods wit their transormation into the Goliaths, the implication is that Kavaki's/Lathander's pantheon, was their pantheon before the transformation, as further implied in the bit in "Monument of the Ancients" that canonized it:
quote:
Excerpt from Heart of the Mountain,
a controversial work on the origins
of goliaths in the Realms.
Like all goliath tribes, the Akoro trace
their ancestry back to the Golden Age of
Netheril. To the Rengarth barbarians of that age, the sacred
mountain range known as the Columns of the Sky were
home to gods. As the fortunes of the Rengarth declined with
the increasing desertification of their lands, the Rengarth
began to doubt their gods.
Demanding answers, a select group was chosen to enter
the sacred mountains and seek the domain of the gods.
Climbing peak after peak, the seekers tackled unforgiving
elements and ferocious beasts with equal skill and
determination. Finally, when they had scaled the last and
greatest peak, they beheld a sight which struck them dumb
and thoughtless with awe.
What they saw is a matter of speculation and myth,
but what is certain is that the seekers had grown taller and
stronger, their flesh hard as stone, their spirits infused with
primal power.
[EDIT2]
What I meant with the different deities of the Rangarth, compred to Netherese, is that it could be Talfiric influence, either due to contact, or partial descent. Although there are alternate explanations for, but I thought it is woth menntioning, especially seeing the presence of both Lathander, and Amaunator in more, or less the same area...
The Ancient Netheril map, also places "Angardt Ancestral lands" quite close to were the Talfiric people dwelled, even very close to River Chiontar, being in the same place as the "Battle of the Bones"is today, as Markustay noted in another thread.
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Edited by - Baltas on 25 Mar 2018 05:13:58 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2018 : 11:38:52
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I think I must heartily disagree with you here dazzlerdal.
As I sugested before, the Rengarth Gods were possibly subsumed by the known now "Faerunian Pantheon" gods, I just noted I think the text implies they were them, or at least some of them. Or that some gods, originated among the "Rengarth pantheon".
I also don't Eldath is overused - in fact, she is one of underused deities, to the point she was completelly absent from 4E, aside from one mention in Dragon magazine's Sarifal article.
In general, many of the more casual fans, I think find Eldath as "boring", due to her position as a goddess of peace, as did aparently Hasbro/WOTC executives.
Shaundakul wasn't mentioned at all during the 4E era, and is in general not that often mentioned.
And in the reall world, there are gods present all over the world. JI mean, just take the proto-Indo-European Dyeus Pater
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyeus
Who is worshipped in his forms, in numerous pantheons, as the Greek/Hellenic Zeus; Dis Pater and Jupiter (Jovis Pater); the Norse/Germanic Tyr/Ziu/Tiwaz; the Baltic Dievas etc.
Another very similar example, is possibly the the Sumerian Anu (his name also read and written as just Dingir - Sumerian for "God", aside from An(u) - Sumerian for Sky), Turkic and Mongolian Tengri, and Chinese Tian (Shang Di?) (all being both the personification Sky, and cosmic Sky Gods,and sharing the name with the same root):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dingir
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tengri
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tian
(Also connected to the possible presence of Sumerians in Central Asia before recorded history I mentioned before.The Altaic Tengri, even shares the dual meaning of Anu/Dingir, meaning possibly both Sky and God, and being used as both the name of the supreme god, as well the generic name of a god)
The article, also adds an interesting implications when combined with the information on the Chessan interpretaton of Lathander that he possibly wasn't originally a "sun god", and snatched that portfolio from Amuanator, and was more a god of virility, vitality and athletics. As again, in Chessenta, Lathander was at least till very recently (before the Spellplague), worshipped in that form. From "Old Empires":
quote:
Lathander
Morning Lord, God of Youth, Vitality,
Self-perfection, Athletics
Status: NG, Greater Power, Elysium
Symbol: A wooden disk of rosy pink
hue, or a statue of two wrestlers
Lathander is worshiped in Chessenta,
though not as the commander of creativity
(that sphere belongs to Melith) but
as the perfect athlete.
Sacrifices to Lathander begin all athletic
competitions, and athletes pray to
him to ensure that they perform at
their best. Lathander is portrayed in
statuary as a runner or a wrestler, competing
sometimes
comes to test great athletes; he
never loses, but if his opponent demonstrates
great ability, he grants a boon.
Lathander's priesthood is small, but
many pray at his shrines.
This quite overlaps with the Rengarth interpretation of Lathander as Kavaki, possibly sugesting he originated in the Rengarth pantheon as Kavaki, or that Lathander's cult penetrayed into the Chessentan and Rangarth pantheon early on (hence the "archaic" forms of Lathander present there), possibly from the Talfir pantheon. Again, are suggested to have contact with Talfir, as there IS a Chessan (specifically Akalaic) language Talfir used - Telfir, as stated in Tom Costa's "Speaking in Tongues" article from the Dragon Magazine.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Telfir
(Tom Costa confirmed Telfir, is a language spoken by the Talfiric peoples).
This is something Tom Costa might have intended, seeing he wrote both (in part) the Candlekeep article on Goliaths, and of curse the "Speaking in Tongues" article.
(In turn, Eldath could also come into the Rengarth pantheon from the Talfiric pantheon, and Shaundakul from the Illuskans, as he is connected to the primal Illuskan beliefs, at least of the Rus tribe of them. Both could also be incorporrated throught contact alone).
This also neatly fits with your Turami-Talfir-Tashalan theory - especially that the Tashalan language (Akûrian) is also described as a member of the Akalaic languages.
Those may be just "misclassications" due to the Turami language influencig heavily the Chessan, or at least the Akalaic languages subgroup of them, creating the ilusion Tashalan and Talfir/Telfir, are part of the Akalaic subgroup of the Chessan languages.
And about Rengarth rejecting not worshipping gods, but ancestors, due to fear/dislike of magic - it's an interesting concept, but a pretty a high/advanced concept, something I think would have to develope latter. And by the same logic, the Rengarth could cease all worship, and even reverce of souls - worship in D&D connected to magic in some capacity, as are even arguably souls and afterlife.
(It also contradicts the several descriptions of Rengarth worshipping gods, and also creates a paradox, with the fact an ancestor that would be worshipped enought, would become a god, if rather a Demi-Power, or Near-Power...This could be also caused by several ancesor-cults beig conflated, the combined cult giving rise to a Power...)
With Talfir, I get you mean the Low Netherese missinterpreted Talfiric worship of forces of nature, as deities, and while an interesting concept, it's a bit at odds with canon.
One could go with it, justifying how the Talfir converted into worship of the Earthmother fairly easily, her being similar to what the Talfir worshipped before (Primal Spirits and Archfey - personifications of the forces of Nature), with Eldath being worshipped among Talfir, making then even more sense (as she is sttongly implied to have been originally a Primal Spirits or Archfey), although it becomes a bit complicated with Tempus, but "conflict" can be seen as a force of nature...
Lathander can be also considered a personification/representation of vitality and virility, as well possibly physical strenght, if one subsribes to the possibility I gave Lathander wasn't originally a sun god... |
Edited by - Baltas on 25 Mar 2018 13:17:07 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2018 : 19:28:32
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Okay, I am getting lost here - what the hell do the Rengarth have to do with Goliaths?!  (and MAN, do I HATE those freakin' things!!!)
Also, I think if we are going to stick Eldath really far back in the FR timeline and assign her to the Turami (or proto-Turami), then someone like maybe Osun (or Oshun) from Nigerian mythology might work for us there (as a template, of sorts).
Also, one thing I forgot to address in my above racial breakdown - the theoretical 'Cortae' peoples would be a stoneage group, and very much like the RW 'Clovis People'. Some of their traditions would have evolved into druidism in the west - normal ('good') druidism among the Tethens, and perhaps something a little darker ('bending nature to your will') among the Talfir.
So perhaps it would be more accurate to say the split-off of Tethens were more like Celts (which makes sense in regards to the Moonshaes), but the Talfir became something more... fantastical (no RW equivalent). Actually, the closest thing I can come to in imagining my version of the Talfir ('shadowy', but with good intentions) would be the Kali cults, although that is FAR from an accurate correlation (Kali was an 'Earthmother' goddess as well, but she was also associated with destruction, through Shiva).
________________________________________________________________________________________________
And I am all for numerous, 'local gods' all over the place. I have no problem with that.
But in the end, they're all just aspects of a handful of archtypes. 
And I like that aspect of Lathander - Kavaki. I hadn't been aware of it. Now I am seeing Lathander as an aspect of Kord (GH), or rather, they are both aspects of the same archtype. FR mythos mirrors RW Greek and Roman mythology in that they have an older, 'more stern' sun god, and then a younger, more vital sun god, who is about renewal (and this also relates to Apollo worship being folded into Christianity via Jesus - 'The Sun/The Son'). And in FR, we have draconic myths about there having been 'two suns' - an older one that was destroyed (dethroned?), and a newer (younger?) one that took its place.
How do the Bedine feel about magic? I just had a stray thought - since Mystra was an outgrowth of that conflict (the one that created the second sun), one can almost think of Mystra as a 'sister' to Lathander in that light (pun intended). And Mystra has 'Silver Fire', as opposed to the 'Golden fire' of the Sun. Could the Bedine actually be thinking of Mystra when they talk about A'tar? That they've somehow gotten the two deities (Aumanator) conflated?
Unfortunately, that means there would be something I have to do to that I have somehow managed to avoid up until now in my Overcosmology musings: Combining deities within the same RW pantheon. Artemis and Hecate would have to become aspects of one goddess. Maybe... then again, I think of Hecate as the Greek Selûne, so maybe I would only have to combine Hecate with Leto, which is less obtrusive (and incidentally, the Titan {Empyreal} Leto is the daughter of Coeus and Phoebe, who are related to the sun & Moon... so it all comes full-circle). Since Hecate's parentage is unknown, and she is considered 'cthonic' (primal), pushing her all the way back to the Time before Time seems appropriate. (Oh crap, I just found that in one set of works she has the SAME parents as Leto! Thus, scholars have deduced she might be Leto's sister. But what if is as simple as that they are THE SAME BEING?) And Hecate is associated with Dogs (canines) as well as the moon and magic - a very early reference to lycanthropy/werewolves?
Hmmmmm... Hecate has a 'triple aspect' as well... Selûne, Shar, and Mystra?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Mar 2018 19:31:59 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2018 : 21:52:32
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I am just going to pretend you didn't tell me that. Goliaths are bad enough as-is (and completely redundant with a dozen other races that already existed before they showed their faces), but that lore... JUST NO. Not gonna happen. Just some story a craze individual was telling in a tavern after having overdosed on Shadowshrooms.
Eldath, BTW, is known for her own, rather widely-spread, portal network. There are several in Turmish alone, but they do appear elsewhere in the Realms. That indicates to me she is probably a much more ancient, primal power that predates The Realms themselves. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2018 : 02:44:36
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-dazzlerdal
Actually, Eldath's first mention (not counting possibly the Rengarth/Goliath cult which would be -357 DR and maybe before) is a bit older - she is first mentioned in -167 DR (The Year of Sudden Kinship), in Myth Nantar, a distinctly non-human settlement at that point, asociated with Seas Elves and Merfolk.
(from "Sea of Fallen Stars")
quote:
Lives above Serôs tie themselves to the sun and moon and the changing seasons. Here in Eldath's embrace,
neither stars nor seasons are as intrusive, though they are no less present. Each creature and civilization
views time differently, though the entire lifeblood of the sea shifts in unified answer to the subtle movement of
time. Finding a way to unify their measurement of time so all races (including those sages in Faerûn with an
interest) shall be my gift to those who honor the Loremaster and other powers in the Inner Sea.
-Arkallus Vorduhl, lorekeeper of Oghma and early native of Myth Nantar, the Year of Sudden Kinship
(And Eldath is a major deity in Myth Nantar, up till 1370s)
Many other areas were that were Eldath's old centres of worship had often Elven and Fey presence - Myth Ondath and Rystal Wood were inhabitted (even originally) by Sylvan Elves and Fey, Myth Drannor was originally elven city, and latter still partially had an elven population, and recently again a (largelly or entirelly) elven population.
The Myrloch Lake shrines at Moonshae Isles preserved by nereids.
Orcs raised by Eldathyns, and worshipping Eldath - Ondonti - became Fey.
Ed, in his first description of Eldath (in "Down-to-earth divinity"), noted specifically Nymphs in Faerun, worship Eldath:
quote:
nymphs worship
Eldath (they believe she is the source
of the power to kill those who look upon
their naked forms).
I think it's also possible Eldath was originally a Fey power, adopted by elves and human (humans adpoting Eldath from elves, or directly from Fey), seeing how fairly consistently Eldath is tied with Fey and Elves, or places they live...(and seeing how elves originally worshipped Fey Deities before the Seldarine, and some, especilly Wood and Silvan Elves, still do) |
Edited by - Baltas on 26 Mar 2018 03:26:23 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2018 : 03:20:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
I think it's also possible Eldath was originally a Fey power, adopted by elves and human (humans adopting Eldath from elves, or directly from Fey), seeing how fairly consistently Eldath is tied with Fey and Elves, or places they live...(and seeing how elves originally worshipped Fey Deities before the Seldarine, and some, especially Wood and Silvan Elves, still do)
Another Fey/Yuir deity, perhaps? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Mar 2018 03:28:19 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2018 : 03:53:36
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Well, suggested that as one possibility in the Yuir Gods thread - and then, I think it would be possible Eldath was the sister of Khelliara/Khalreshaar, and Mielikki would have "inherted" this relationship with Eldath, when she merged with Khelliara/Khalreshaar.
Another possibility though, is that Sarula Iliene, the Nixie Queen, was one of the Yuir Gods, and Eldath merged with her.
She is described as Fey deity, that joined the Seldarine, due to her connection with Rillifane Rallathil.
My guess is Sarula Iliene could be originally connected with Relkath and/or (less probably) Magnar, after these were subsumed/absorbed by Rillifane Rallathil, Sarula Iliene joined the Seldarine, but for some reason (ie her cult dying out) merged with her close friend with a close portfolio, Eldath.
Then it's possible Sarula Iliene and Khelliara/Khalreshaar were sisters, and both Eldath and Mielikki inherited their relationship.
(And maybe Relkath was their father?)
[EDIT]
Sarula Iliene also became active again during the 4E era, along with (other?) Yuir Gods, so it's possible that Eldath dissaperance during that period, was the Sarula Iliene aspect of he Eldath-Sarula merger becoming temprarily dominant, and something similar maybe going on with Rillifane Rallathil, with who Relkath of the Infinite Branches became the dominant in their fusion/merger.
It's also possible Eldath, was allways the same as Sarula Iliene, and during the wild times after the Spellplague, till the second Sundering, Eldath's more primal and active aspect, re-emerged, to better deal with those wild times. |
Edited by - Baltas on 26 Mar 2018 04:01:25 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
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Posted - 26 Mar 2018 : 05:46:37
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Seems like their were a lot of female Yuir Totems (because I've pegged both Auril and Mmberlee as ex-Fey and former Yuir deities as well). Maybe the 'Yuir' were like the Amazons from paradise Island?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2018 : 09:04:47
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Snobbery? If even half the deities I think may have been Yuir are fey/Elven originally, then it seems they have a distinct dislike for elven deities who have broadened their fanbase (have non-Elf worshipers).
Or, conversely, she may be worshiped by the fey under another name. What if Eldath and Mielikki are the same Goddess? Mielikki already has a presence and name within the Seldarine. Mielikki is probably Netherese, and thus, likely Gur in origin. Eldath may have just been the name she was known by among the Turami and/or Talfir. Its not really that much of a stretch, at all. I also think Mielikki is the same power as Ehlonna, who was/is GH and is now 'Core' (4e). The lore (PS) says the two live together, but I think that's just a matter of mortal perception; i think they are atually the same being. I just think her Eldath aspect may have had more to do with 'watery places' in nature than her others. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2018 : 15:45:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Snobbery? If even half the deities I think may have been Yuir are fey/Elven originally, then it seems they have a distinct dislike for elven deities who have broadened their fanbase (have non-Elf worshipers).
Or, conversely, she may be worshiped by the fey under another name. What if Eldath and Mielikki are the same Goddess? Mielikki already has a presence and name within the Seldarine. Mielikki is probably Netherese, and thus, likely Gur in origin. Eldath may have just been the name she was known by among the Turami and/or Talfir. Its not really that much of a stretch, at all. I also think Mielikki is the same power as Ehlonna, who was/is GH and is now 'Core' (4e). The lore (PS) says the two live together, but I think that's just a matter of mortal perception; i think they are atually the same being. I just think her Eldath aspect may have had more to do with 'watery places' in nature than her others.
Not picturing the goddess of hunting and the goddess of peace and tranquility as the same. Granted, both are nature loving and good, but their personaes are different. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
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15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2018 : 17:46:37
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Yeah, I wasn't really 100% with that one. I like to streamline my (unified) pantheon, but that one didn't work for me because I've already linked Mielikki to so many other goddesses, RW and D&D.
Except for one thing - Ehlonna is a perfect fit for Eldath. Ehlonna isn't about hunting - she is also a peaceful nature goddess. The only thing the two seem to have in common is their unicorn symbol, and yet, Planscape lumped them together in one Realm and said they were 'like minded', which I don't see for exactly the reason you ascribe above. I personally prefer keeping them separate (and saying Ehlonna is Eldath rather then Mielikki - it makes sense they live together), but its not a stretch to say they are somewhat different aspects of some 'Earth Daughter' Archtype.
Gods have literally been portrayed as having been from different races (Mielikki, for example, has her (half)Elven aspect of Khalreshaar - "she who opposes Shar"), so having one pet bunnies and another eat bunnies is no big deal - its all part of nature.
I'm sort of arguing against myself here because I am torn. They are more similar than they are dissimilar, but I have already combined way too many and things are starting to break down (because the more deities I associate one with, the more other myths start to not work). Eldath makes more sense as a very early, half-elven mortal who ascended, because she is a minor goddess, yet on some levels, she appears to have some of the quirks/perks of an ancient deity. The thing that most convinces me she isn't as big a deal as I picture her being is that Elminster literally summoned her in one story, just to 'show up' her priests (who didn't think Elminster had a right to tell them what to do). They learned REAL QUICK who was in charge. Thats an example of a demipower summoning a lesser power, which shouldn't be (I think it has to do with those 'Harper deals' between the Gods and Mystra's Chosen).
At the end of the day, I see Eldath being a truly ancient goddess, probably the Earthmother, but her Eldath aspect is more fitting for rural, primitive folk (or 'savages'), like how most Wood Elves live, or many, many humans. Civilization has pushed her Eldath aspect into the background, and her Chauntea aspect has come to the fore. Thus, 'Eldath' is a version of the Earthmother archtype that's fading, which explains her low-lev despite her portfolio.
Mielikki, on the other hand, I picture being an 'Earthdaughter' type, who is more aggressive. She fits Artemis, but her relationship with her 'mother' is probably more like Demeter and Persephone. Funny, but Loviatar and Talona are sisters, and I always pictured Mielikki as a third sister (same pantheon, but probably a half-sibling somehow). In the CBoN there is a story of how Loviatar 'stormed the gates of hell' to try and rescue her sister, and that story kind of reminds me of Persephone being stuck in Hades. Once again, here, I feel like all the myths are just alternate versions of the events told from differing perspectives.
EDIT:
The name 'Ilmatar' also comes from the Finnish, and although under that name she is mostly a sky/air nature deity, under the name Luonnotar she was a more generalized 'mother nature' type. Perhaps when Issek emigrated to the Realms he usurped that name for himself, and THE Ilmatar became Eldath? That would be a nice fit, except why would she switch from air to water? I mean, we could probably account for that with some Realms-specific story, like maybe she had a battle with Akadi and lost her 'air' portfolio completely, and while she was thusly diminished, Issek stepped in and stole the name. So before she fades completely, she merges her essence with elven maid and reinvents herself as Eldath... something along those lines. Its a stretch, though.
I keep forgetting you hate gods, so, my apologies for putting all of this here. 
(If it's any consolation, I picture them more like 'supers' than actual gods. Just another cosmic race with powers, is all.) |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Mar 2018 18:01:18 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2018 : 03:36:18
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Eldath being fey I can get behind. The question would be is do the fey and elves still worship her. If not why not.
Hmm, did you maybe miss my last commemt on the previous page? (It's possible seeing it was the very last commment on it) I mentioned there events of Eldath being worshipped, or implied to be worshipped by elves and fey:
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
-dazzlerdal
Actually, Eldath's first mention (not counting possibly the Rengarth/Goliath cult which would be -357 DR and maybe before) is a bit older - she is first mentioned in -167 DR (The Year of Sudden Kinship), in Myth Nantar, a distinctly non-human settlement at that point, asociated with Seas Elves and Merfolk.
(from "Sea of Fallen Stars")
quote:
Lives above Serôs tie themselves to the sun and moon and the changing seasons. Here in Eldath's embrace,
neither stars nor seasons are as intrusive, though they are no less present. Each creature and civilization
views time differently, though the entire lifeblood of the sea shifts in unified answer to the subtle movement of
time. Finding a way to unify their measurement of time so all races (including those sages in Faerûn with an
interest) shall be my gift to those who honor the Loremaster and other powers in the Inner Sea.
-Arkallus Vorduhl, lorekeeper of Oghma and early native of Myth Nantar, the Year of Sudden Kinship
(And Eldath is a major deity in Myth Nantar, up till 1370s)
Many other areas were that were Eldath's old centres of worship had often Elven and Fey presence - Myth Ondath and Rystal Wood were inhabitted (even originally) by Sylvan Elves and Fey, Myth Drannor was originally elven city, and latter still partially had an elven population, and recently again a (largelly or entirelly) elven population.
The Myrloch Lake shrines at Moonshae Isles preserved by nereids.
Orcs raised by Eldathyns, and worshipping Eldath - Ondonti - became Fey.
Ed, in his first description of Eldath (in "Down-to-earth divinity"), noted specifically Nymphs in Faerun, worship Eldath:
quote:
nymphs worship
Eldath (they believe she is the source
of the power to kill those who look upon
their naked forms).
I think it's also possible Eldath was originally a Fey power, adopted by elves and human (humans adpoting Eldath from elves, or directly from Fey), seeing how fairly consistently Eldath is tied with Fey and Elves, or places they live...(and seeing how elves originally worshipped Fey Deities before the Seldarine, and some, especilly Wood and Silvan Elves, still do)
It's quite notable the nereids on Moonshae Isles, were the only fully confirmed worshippers/servants of Eldath during the 4E era, but it's very possible Eldath also is worshipped by other Fey, or even the Llewyrr Elves.
If we connect Eldath with Sarula Iliene (eirther by Eldath at some point merging with Sarula, or them being jist two apects of the same entity all along), she has even further elven worshippers. Both are worshippd by water fey, and are ocerly quite simiar, up to their priests sharing the same (rather rare) favored weapon - a net.
Eldath very name, might have an elven etymology - Ondath, means "Peace" in elven, and it's possible the name Eldath is derived from it, seeinga name even partially meaning "Peace", quite fit's Eldath.
Previously, I though it might be connected tob Chondath, and Jhaamdath, but it seems to be now less probable, especially that Yrlaancel, was renamed to Myth Ondath when the population started to universally or near universally worship Eldath.
It is possible though (On)dath, is a word that was borrowed by Jhaamdathans from the Elven Language, an the name "Jhaamdath", means "Jhaam's peace", or "Peace to Jhaam", ie as an obituary in Jhaam's name.
Also, I don't think two gods being revealed as the same, doesn't make sense.
For example, it was fairly recently discovered, Apollo, started out as the Mesopotamian Nergal. Nergal's Akkadian title, was "Aplu Enlil", meaning "the son of Enlil". This gave rise to the Hurrian and Hittite name of Nergal - Aplu and Apaliunas. Aplu's cult then arrived to Greece, via the Greeks travel to Grece in the first placce through Asia Minor, or via their colonies there, becoming Apollo.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aplu_(deity)
Apollo, on the suffrace, might seem a quite different deity than Nergal, but what is a bit less known fact, Apollo was also the god of plague. Nergal, also was a sun god, if representing the "underworld sun" - the sun after it settles (goes to the underworld) - and Nergal was often considered the chthonnic aspect/incarnation of Shamash/Utu.
It can be also explained how such process, happens - for example, two different populations, worship a deity. Due to cultural differences, and other possible issue, the two groups start to worship a deity differently. The difference in name, might be easily explained with one group taking a deity's title as it's name as did the Hurrians with Nergal.
A power can also create a specialized aspect, for some reason, and this aspect can become the dominant one.
The name difference, could be even explained with "Eldath", being originally a title of Saula, or vice versa. It's more probable with Eldath being originally a title though, as it might be tile containing "Ondath" (Peace in Elven).
With gods above Demigod rank, stoping being people when they undergo apotheosis to true godhood, Eldath was a demigoddess dwelling in the material plane before the Time of Troubles. It's also possible, that in post-4E times, it means Eldath was an Archfey before the Time of Troubles.
Although there is some evidence Eldath was allready once a lesser, or even intermediate deity, as the Sea of Fallen Stars sourcebook (by Steven E. Schend), describes Eldath as quite powerfull goddess:
quote:
Notes: Despite the dogma oft-repeated by Umberlee's faithful, she no more rules the oceans than Talos
rules the land. Both gods influence and control the destruction
within their domains, but Umberlee's reach
extends only along the surface and the shallows to a
depth of about 100 feet. As Umberlee and her worshipers
dominate Upper Serôs among the shallows, Eldath
keeps the peace in the depths. More than 100 feet
below the surface, the chaos above rarely intrudes on
the peace, tranquility, and calm ballet of the tidal currents.
While Umberlee rules surface-worlders view of
the oceans, many here point to calm Eldath as the true
goddess of the sea.
This of course, seeing the books in-universe character, quite probably reflects the beliefs of the population of Myth Nantar, but still, I tgink it may be evidence Eldath allready once was of a higher rank than a demigoddess, beoe beoming a demigoddess (again), due to losing worshippers.
- Markustay
Good observation on Ehlonna and Eldath - yes, they are quite similar, and it is probable she may be an aspect of Eldath, rather than Mielikki.
Although it's also possible Ehlonna is instead an aspect of Eilistraee, seeing Ehlonna's name among elves, is "Ehlenestra".
About other setting, it's also notable Melora from the 4E core setting/Points of Light, is quite similar to Eldath:
http://dnd4.wikia.com/wiki/Melora
It's notable, as Melora is also often worshipped by elves, and among the Firbolgs a Triple Goddess, consisting of Sehanine, Melora and the Taven Queen.
With Elmister summoning Eldath, well heroes in novels,do some pretty improbably impressive stuff. Elmister is actually an example, but as is Drizzt defeating Demogorgon recently.
Eldath could salso lose a LOT of her original power - it's notable that Selune lost power up to becoming a lesser deity, as did Jergal resign from most of his divinity, and became a Demigid. And both were, and are MAJOR players in the Realms.
And as I mentioned when writting about Myth Natar, Eldath is described as "as the true
goddess of the sea" in Sea of Fallen Stars...
I agree with the Ancient Goddess views, and connection to the Earthmother - the Earthmother, is inspired largelly by Danu - and Danu was a goddess connected to water - mostly lakes and rivers.
It is notable the River Danube is possibly named after Danu (originally Danuuius), and in the Vedic myythology, there was also a goddess Danu, which was a primeval goddess of waters:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danu_(Asura)
And as I mentioned before, Eldath also is worshipped on the Moonshae Isles...
About Eldath being worshipped all around, she's even worshipped by the Tuigan, as detailed in The Horde boxed set:
quote:
In addition to these two, the tribes believe in a
number of lesser gods and spirits. The beast cult
of horses is particularly important. An aspect of
Eldath is venerated, since water is so important.
This is interesting, as it could be seenmore probable the Tuigan would worship aspects (or maybe servants, as you suggested with Teylas) of the Elemental Lords allready, and the peoples in the region also worshiped them - Raumathar, and most Raumvirans were stated to havd been wprshipping the Elemental Lords. So it seemed probable the Tuigan would worship Istishia, yet they worship Eldath.
But we know with Eke Bayalun (stepmother of Yamun Khahan), that the Maraloi elves have contact with the Tuigan - so it's possible Tuigan got the cult of Eldath, from the Maraloi elves.
I also seen you connect Maraloi with the LeShay, which has a lot of sense - Maraloi were descibed as an "Ancient Eastern of shoot of the Elven race", and we also know LeShay were active in the region - having fairly close relation with Imaskar.
This could be further evidence of Eldath being a very anncient goddess...
Another possibility though, is if Eldath was one of the Yuir Gods, and therefore the gods of the Arthraen, and Tuigan could also learn the of Eldath from them.
A bit of topic though, Eldath with this, could fit as one of gods of the Utter East in the Utter East project, as a Danu figure.
With (the Gaelic) Danu though, she also was closelly connected with Brigid, and even though by some researchers to be the same, although younger figure, and Daughter the Dagda (A Silvanus figure), like Eldath is at times considered of Silvanus.
This could have sense Eldath is a Brigid-like, lesser incarnation of the Earthmother (Danu?). Another paralell from Greyhawk, is Berei, a more humanized, Neutral Good aspect of Beory. Although others have connected Berei with Ehlonna, further adding to your theory...
About Selune, in the Sea of Fallen Stars sourcebook, there is an interesting legend mentioned:
quote:
Olone
(o-LAHN-ay)
An old mythic tale within the oral traditions of both
the whales and some worshipers of Eldath names the full
moon as Olone, a former lover of the Green Goddess.
He was once a mortal merman who fought Umberlee to
protect his lover from her wrath, and she evilly changed
him into a bubble to rise up, far away from his beloved
ocean. Olone and Eldath remain ever apart, but his staring
eye coolly lights the depths without disturbing them
as he watches his love. Even when worshipers of Selûne
try to educate them otherwise about the moon and
godly powers, they cling to this old romantic myth, and
the whalesongs about Olone also keep the name alive.
This is quite interesting, especially that "Olone" seems to be a version/corruption of the name of Selune.
This might be a corrupted version of historic event of Eldath helping Selune in her original war against Shar in prehistoric times. Only that shar, got swapped for Umberlee, as Umberlee is more of devil-figure to the population of Seros, and many undersea creatures.
It also implies Eldath and Selune were lovers, which might be why Elminster likes this story so much  :
quote:
Elminster's Notes: I love the story of Olone and Eldath,
which has numerous permutations from different places and
times. The lengthy tragic ballad, when sung by Serôsian
bards, always brings a tear or three to this old sage's eye.
[EDIT]
It's also notable Eldath titles - "Mother Guardian of Groves", and "Mother of the Waters", sound quite similar to Earthmother's titl/name, and Mielikki, during the Time of Troubles, reffered to Eldath as "Datha", quite similar to Danu. Although Datha, might be just an affectionate nickname Mielikki has for Eldath, especially that Eldath's name, might be connected to the Elven word "Ondath"...
[EDIT2]
And with how much ground in truth the story of Olone (Selune) and Eldath has, it was described as remembered and told by whales, and the Sea of Fallen Stars Sourcebook notes about the timeline:
quote:
Epochs of the Inner Sea
No historical records date back to the Time of Dragons,
as the early years of Faerûn's history are named. Serôsian
historians usually mark four major eras in its history,
while it has just recently opened the doors to a new,
fifth, era.
The First Epoch (Time of Beginnings): Stretching
from fables and myths to the emergence of recorded history,
the First Epoch looms large as a time of change as
the Serôsian races all take to the sea. Only the whales
have much knowledge of this time, and all they sing of
are the delights of meeting the new people of Serôs and
of the dragons that loom large in the surface-world
lands. This Epoch ends with the elven migrations into
Serôs and their Rise to power.
The Second Epoch (Time of the Elves)
So this indicates the whales - that are at least one of the sources of the story about Olone - have a recollection of events of The Time of Dragons, or even earlier... |
Edited by - Baltas on 28 Mar 2018 08:51:35 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2018 : 19:53:13
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Since I don't do a god centric model of religion aspects do not make sense. The belief moulds the god not the other way around in a non god centric model.
So if people are worshipping a deity called Ishtar then that worship goes toward powering Ishtar (if such a divine being exists) or goes towards making a deity called Ishtar exist (although that takes much more worship). If the people worship a god called Isis then that worship goes towards powering the god called Isis.
There is no divine postal service that says if people worship Ishtar then actually redirect it towards Isis because Ishtar is actually an aspect of Isis.
In the realms (and elsewhere presumably) names have power. More correctly truenames have power. As mortals if you discover your truename then you keep it a secret because it grants others power over you if used badly. Elminster and the other chosen have shared their truenames with each other so they can call upon the others in times of need.
As a deity it would seem that the truenames are shared far and wide because it allows others to call upon your power (in the form of spells and other divine aid), and it also means that everytime it is invoked the power is donated to the divine being (which can be used to donate spells and perform miracles etc). THat is why gods create religions and form cults so people invoke their name and in worshipping them give them power and in return the worshippers can call upon that aid.
Aspects and aliases don't work because it means the truename isn't being invoked and requires a deus ex machine explanation to say that the god set up this divine postal service so worship of another name goes to him - doesn't make sense to me.
In a non god centric model of religion a god derives power by his worshippers gaining more worshippers. So when a church wars and conquers a rival one then the conquering god gains more power. When a religion is eliminated the god dies. There are sneakier ways of doing this however. A church can infiltrate a rival and begin insinuating its own method of worship into the prayers and dogma of the rival. First you have your god mentioned in the prayers as a divine servant and then the prayers become to god A who is god B reborn and then eventually all mention of god A is completely removed. However such an infiltration requires a lot of time and effort and is rarely guaranteed to achieve success in much more than a single temple or small region.
That's as close to alias and aspects as I can conceive in a non god centric model with the exception of one church falsely spreading worship of another god in a malign way as is done against Shaundakul's faith in Anauroch. One church (I cannot remember which) has it's agents infiltrate local tribes and everytime something bad happens (which they sometimes cause) they attribute it to Shaundakul. Then they start setting up evil cults to this new version of Shaundakul in the hope they will take hold and expand and override the original church of Shaundakul. The belief moulds the god and so this evil heresy of Shaundakul worship may replace the existing church and make him evil in the eyes of the common folk (thus granting the evil gods another ally).
As for Eldath being widespread I never take mention of a god as fact of the religion being there. A tribe in the hordelands may worship some being in a manner that resembles worship of Eldath. Faerunian merchants encounter this tribe and interpret it as worshipping Eldath and thus everyone thinks they worship Eldath. In truth the tribe worship a spirit called Molgant (make up any name you like) and have no idea who Eldath is). Alternatively with the spread of Faerunian merchants they have brought the worship of foreign gods with them and converted this tribe into worshipping Eldath instead of Molgant (like the Red Knight in Yaimunnahar).
And the Olone thing, Elminster notes its a nice story that he likes. Stories are fictional (or mostly fictional).
I will probably use Eldath as some fey being who eventually gained some human worship. It may be that she was first worshipped by a house of elves from Myth Drannor that changed into sea elves. These sea elves have helped spread her worship to human lands around the Inner Sea and thus she has joined the Faerunian Pantheon while her worship in Seros has dwindled to almost nothing. Shrines to Eldath in the Moonshaes are actually shrines to a similar fey being found on one of the islands but the local humans assume its Eldath (the fey don't talk about religion to humans so don't care what they call their lord).
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2018 : 03:12:52
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Hmm, I can get what you mean, but I'm not exactly sure if deities, would be eager to make aviable their truename.
This would be especially troublesome, with deities of fiendish origin - to gather power to ascend, they would have to reveal their true name to get power from worship to ascend.
With others striving towards divinity it would also make them more dangerous.
Not to mention, Volo (with Elminster's help), had this to write about Truenames in VoLo's Guide to
All Things Magical (written in real life by Ed and Eric L, Boyd)
quote:
"Truename" is something of a misnomer;
such names are identifiers that must apply correctly to the caster
but may be pseudonyms, pet names, or favored titles or phrases.
They are usually not innate, unchangeable, unique names that
define the caster from birth. "The Sage of Shadowdale," for
instance, is a truename for Elminster.
And deities, from the start of the setting, use multiple names - quite notably Hoar and Assuran, and he uses them fairly interchangably, deriving power from worship of both.
As does aparently Talos (or rather Kozah), with all of the gods he subsumed.
Indeed, as the Ancient Kozah is described as pretty much 100% identical to the modern Talos, this pretty much suggests Talos is a (probably Chondathan) name for Kozah, or a Jhaamdathan storm god Kozah subsumed, and uses mostly his name today, due to Jhaamdathan being the ancestor of Thorass and Commmon.
Targus and Garagos are the same - with Garagos either being the Thorass or Chondathan form of Targus' name, or a Jhaamdathan deity Targos defeated.
Jannath, is quite probably the same deity as Chauntea.
"Jannath" is a name that can easily be seen as having evolved into "Chauntea". The "J" sound, can shift into the "Ch" sound, for various reasons, as words/names, change through years, or or are borrowed by another language.
With the change, "Jannath", allready becomes "Channath" - I think one can sea a easy route from that inro Chauntea.
With that, I think you can understand my dounts about your idea here - it's jist there had been so many records of divinities using multiple names, and granting spells under them, and since the start of the the published Realms (ie Hoar and Assuran)
Of course, there is an issue with Jannath in Netheriil: Empire of Magic, being characterized quite like the the Moonshade Isles' Earthmother - even having Earthmother as an title::
quote:
Jannath
Greater Power of Elysium NG
PORTFOLIO:Wild nature, forests, wild animals, the sea and
sea creatures, agriculture, cultivation, farmers,
gardeners, the fundamental elements, summer
TITLES:The Great Mother, the Grain Goddess, the
Golden Goddess, She Who Shapes All, the
Forest Mother, Guardian of the Wilds and
Deeps, Earthmother, Keeper of the Wild
quote:
While she turned
her blessing upon those plants and animals that had been domesticated,
granting them fertility and abundance, she protected the
forests, plains, jungles, arctic wildernesses, and even the depths of
the sea with an equal generosity of spirit. Any who burned forests
or grasslands, cut wood to excess, overfished, hunted whales, or
attempted wholesale slaughter of the fur-bearing animals of
Faerûn found their efforts rewarded by aggressive visitations from
the most clever of thieves and vicious predators of the animal and
plant kingdom, who ruined their profits—or their lives.
Of course, this is due to how Forgotten Realms canon, conflated the Earthmother and Chauntea, and tried to explain the Earthmother as the remanant of Chauntea's old, primal nature.
And there are some issues people take with Netheriil: Empire of Magic
Of course, one could make this into something interesting - like Jannath, being born exactly as a misunderstaanding and adoption of the Talfir worship of the Earthmother by the Low Netherese.
Although this would require for the Talfir to know of the Earthmother, before settling the Moonshae Isles, but that isn't that of an improbable stretch. It could be also explained The Netherese adopted the Earthmother through another source.
Or that the Netherese as the first just started to syncretize/confuse Jannath (Chauntea) with the Earthmother...
With Eldath, I can get through why you think she is a Fey power first worshipped (possible aside from water fey) by elves who became sea elves from Myth Drannor (or rather even Cormanthor), before settling in Seros.
With Eldath though, one could see Nereids or sea elves could bring her cult to the Moonshae Isles, seeing Deep Sashelas waas also chilling on the Moonshae Isles then...
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2018 : 19:26:07
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I think that you overcomplicate this whole race/diefic crossreferencing. It should be clear that Ed took a lot of RL mythologies and used them as inspiration for his gods. This continued and it is also confirmed by linking RL Earth with FR. However I doubt it that Ed even knew all that you have dug out in his time and even if he did I doubt he would just copy it. IMHO it should be taken as inspiration and little wordplay. This whole thing started with Netheril sourcebook where is clearly stated that Kozah is old name of Talos, ... It is from different era so it make sense that the same god was named differently then, possibly using this in far away regions like Kara-Tur, Chult, ... but saying Eldath is Chauntea doesn't make sense to me. More likely you are biting your own tail.
For me Eldath is a minor goddes of water and peace and could be originaly Fey diety. Idea of her involvement in Jhaamdat inspired me as I have been thinking for a long time why was Umberlee taking part in it's fall... |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2018 : 21:33:23
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Wrigley, I think you conflated my and Markustay's comments, and misunderstood them.
I didn't arrgue Talos is different deity than Kozah - opposite of that, I just gave two explanations, for his change of name.
With Eldath, Markustay, and up to a level I, mused about Eldath's connection to the Moonshae Isles Earthmother (who was established since 4E as a separate enity from Chauntea), not Chauntea, and latter I suggested that if Jannath wasn't Chauntea, then maybe she was the Eaerhmother, based on some facts connecting them.
The Earthmother also isn't Ed's creation, but was added, along the Moonshae Isles, very early (pre-publishing) to the Realms. Ed did write possibly latter stuff with Moonshae Isles, but they wereb't in his original Realms.
It's curious though that if you read the earliest mentioned Realms Lore (like "Down-to-earth Divinity"), it's Eldath (and Silvanus), who are connected to druidism, not Chauntea.
But it was more just theorizing on our, and I did note I think it's more probable Eldath started out as an unrelated Fey deity.
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2018 : 19:47:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Wrigley, I think you conflated my and Markustay's comments, and misunderstood them.
I didn't arrgue Talos is different deity than Kozah - opposite of that, I just gave two explanations, for his change of name.
With Eldath, Markustay, and up to a level I, mused about Eldath's connection to the Moonshae Isles Earthmother (who was established since 4E as a separate enity from Chauntea), not Chauntea, and latter I suggested that if Jannath wasn't Chauntea, then maybe she was the Eaerhmother, based on some facts connecting them.
The Earthmother also isn't Ed's creation, but was added, along the Moonshae Isles, very early (pre-publishing) to the Realms. Ed did write possibly latter stuff with Moonshae Isles, but they wereb't in his original Realms.
It's curious though that if you read the earliest mentioned Realms Lore (like "Down-to-earth Divinity"), it's Eldath (and Silvanus), who are connected to druidism, not Chauntea.
But it was more just theorizing on our, and I did note I think it's more probable Eldath started out as an unrelated Fey deity.
My message was more of a sigh over general style of debate in recent days than reaction to you or Markus (That is why it wasn't a reply). Some of the theories look to me like somebody is desparately trying to use every item on every other to find a solution of an adventure game... |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Forgotten Realms: Alternate Dimensions
