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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Mar 2015 : 17:13:20
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Awesome...seriously awesome!
Thanks for all your ideas being shared here!
If I weren't knee deep in either sleep or trying to catch up on my life I'd love to throw in with you lot and work on things like this for the Realms!
Keep it coming though...much easier for me to enjoy reading your work than writing my own right now! lol |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2015 : 21:38:24
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| Very interesting stuff. Although I have a question. As Chauntea is the "soul" of Toril, does that make Earthmother her child, in a way?(The same question applies to other primordials, like Othea, and Bhalla). And what is interesting, Chauntea was once more primal, as Jannath, and only started to morph into her current, agriculture, and tammed nature, after the fall of Netheril. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2015 : 09:14:35
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Well i'm sure i'm in the minority with my idea about the deities but i tend to think that a lot of what is written about them is from the point of view of the deity itself (or the clergy).
I have had a framework for achieving godhood for a while now that has a number of requirements.
1 - You need to have a threshold level of worship.
2 - You need to have a threshold level of personal power.
3 - You need to want to make the choice to become a deity.
There area reasons for these requirements. I measure deific power in terms of experience points. Worship provides experience points. All deific actions use experience points.
If you have no worshippers (or too few) then you cannot become a deity in the first place and if you do become a deity you will quickly run out of power and die.
If you lack enough personal power then once you become a deity you lack a safety reserve in case of emergencies and will quickly run out of power and die (Talos uses this loophole by creating emergencies and burning out new deities - Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul collected the power of 7 primordials to boost their personal power reserves in preparation for godhood.
The last one is important and is the reason why rocks and trees are not elevated to godhood. You need a certain level of sentience in order to become a god. That is why Elminster and Larloch are not gods, because they choose not to be (and actively discourage worship of themselves).
Now relating that to the gods. The planet can no more become a god than my pet guinea pig can become a god. It has a barely conscious level of sentience (if at all, its just my personal world that has the planet has a complex lifeform so that it can provide spell energy to druids without the gods being involved).
So Chauntea claiming to be the soul of the planet is a falsehood to me, one perpetuated by the god itself to acquire more worship. The reason it has to be false is that when you ascend to godhood your body becomes your first avatar and your divine vessel. When you move to the outer planes (which almost all gods do) then that divine vessel goes as well (because it is you) and so disappears from the material plane.
The planet is still here, so Chauntea is not Toril.
As for the origins and relationships of Chauntea, Jannath, and the Earthmother. I think the Earthmother is that great big primordial spewing mountain, and like Toril itself is barely sentient. Certainly as an immovable object with no organs or brain or anything else biological she isnt going to act in a manner that humanoid life would understand, it would be mostly instinctive.
The Earthmother is definitely not a god for me, she is an ultra powerful primordial type creature. Yes many of the primordials became the first gods during or after the war of light and darkness, but the earthmother (like Toril itself and Bhalla and Othea and Maztica) probably lacks the level of sentience required to make the choice to become a god, they might not even be separate entities.
Existing as a conduit to creating life, what people think is the Earthmother (because it has semi-thoughts if you scanned it you might see an image before your mind was obliterated with power) is really just a localised portion of Toril focusing on a specific task that is different to the rest of Toril - After all Toril is huge and more complicated than any other lifeform in existence so why would she think and behave like a humanoid that is only able to manifest a single thought process at a time.
Chauntea and Jannath are deities. Jannath was depicted as a kindly white haired woman, and that avatar remains as the primary form of Chauntea.
Therefore at some point Jannath and Chauntea fused together into one being (probably when the remains of Low Netheril fled to the Western Heartlands and on into the Dragon Reach where it either encountered the Talfir pantheon (unlikely since i reckon the Talfir once lived in the Netheril basin and so donated their gods to the migrant Netherese that moved in a while before Seventon was born - the sarrukh were known to keep human slaves after all), or the remnants of Jhaamdath (not all of which would be from Jhaamdath since that empire was large and contained at least two separate peoples (Jhaamdathi and Turami).
So assuming Jannath was Netherese and Chauntea was Jhaamdathi (or Talfir, it doesnt really matter). Then when the two peoples occupied the same space you have a joining of pantheons. It is written that two deities above demi-power status with the same portfolios cannot exist within the same pantheon. It is my feeling that when pantheons overlap in an area the region becomes contested until only one set of gods remains (as we are still seeing in Chessenta today).
Therefore either the two deities battled (unlikely given their peaceful nature), or their clergies had a few brief spats over ideology and then gradually merged and the two deities likewise gradually merged. Jannath perhaps became a demipower in service to Chauntea until her worship died out completely (remember the troubles that befell Netheril were much more violent and destructive than Jhaamdath - the tidal wave only devastated the core of Jhaamdath, the phaerimm were engaged in a war of annihilation with all of Netheril) whereupon Chauntea absorbed the rest and kept Jannath's avatar as her primary manifestation (although it may not have been Chauntea's choice).
Chauntea may have been one of the early primordials that ascended through worship of the lesser races (why would you not worship a titanic being of immense power).
Jannath with her appearance as a human is either an ascended mortal (tricky to do because without a reserve power level you risk death), or perhaps she is an example of an idea becoming a god. Enough people believe in an all powerful goddess of the earth that looks like a white haired old lady. No such lady/god exists, but as enough people believe it then it becomes real anyway (otherwise how else do dead creatures ascend. People believe in the idea of a being long after it perished and so it is recreated from their belief in what it was).
Of course it could all be the other way around (i tend not to hold the Netheril stuff as canon) so maybe Chauntea was the mortal/idea, and Jannath was the ascended primordial. Then they merged.
None of it really matters. Once you become a deity you lose your sense of identity, which i believe is the curse of godhood. As a metaphorical being that exists in multiple states of reality (you can have up to 10 avatars depending upon your power level), you are shaped by the majority opinion of those that worship you.
Admittedly a deity has a significant level of control over the image and practices portrayed to his worshippers (he can send images, send proxies to communicate, even send avatars) but they cant foresee and control everything.
The changes wrought by the merging of Chauntea and Jannath were likely accidental. Who could foresee that both empires would end and the populations move into the same area. Who knows what would happen when two groups worshippers of different nature deities congregate in the same area. Maybe they all got together in a great big forum and had a huge discussion about what their god actually looked like. Then the merged church goes away, creates a new bunch of holy scriptures and BAM, Chauntea is now a white haired old lady.
I hope i didnt ramble too much, and that i actually answered your question, but i like to think that the things relating to deities are a lot more complicated than we can ever hope to fathom, but if you try and imagine yourself as a metaphorical being perhaps you can decipher it a little bit at a time. |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2015 : 10:47:38
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| Very interesting, although I think Chauntea and Jannath, might been always the same deity, just with an etymological change of name. "J", could transform into "CH" sound, "ANN", cound become "AUN", and "ATH", could become "TEA". You know, like the name Dyaus, became Zeus, and Tyr in real world. Both are probably renderings of Chauntea's original name, probably forgotten by now. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2015 : 11:48:21
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I think that Iltyr, might have been a benevolent Beholder god, with which Tyr merged with.
My own theory about Tyr, is that he was a lesser giantish deity/primordial originaly, who came or appeared with Annam. Tyr is described as Giant Hymir's son in one myth. He would later merge with, and absorb a number of gods and other entities, including I think Arawn, from which came his alias, Arrtyr Judge Of All(Judge Of All, seems like a title for a god of Dead).
[EDIT]
Also, Chauntea was actualy said to embody the whole Realm-space, not only Toril. Although this is just a myth. Another possibility, is that Chauntea, merged her spirit with a mortal druid of her, when she ascended from being a primordial, into godhood. |
Edited by - Baltas on 12 Mar 2015 19:32:22 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2015 : 20:36:12
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I understand your point about limiting to Toril, multiverse stuff can be consuming AND confusing.
About Chauntea, as I said, I think she would merge with a mortal, to make to not have Toril dissapear into the Outer Planes, when she ascended into a deity. She by moving her spirit into the mortal, she used the mortal's body as the first avatar, and divine vessel, that moved into the outer planes, and leave the planet intact.
Also, your spin on Toril, and the Primordial mothers(Earthmother, Othea, Bhalla...), and theoir relationship, as well as the relationship of the Earthmother, and her children remind me of the realationship of the Planet, and the WEAPONs from Final Fantasy VII. Although I think that's rather a coicidence. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2015 : 09:17:46
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Of course, if Chauntea moved her spirit from Toril, into a mortal, nothing says it had to be a human. I think it could be any member of the creator races. My pick, would be on LeShay, because of the white hair, and that LeShay, aside from humans, seem the most likely to be druids, and preserve nature out of the creator races(Well, maybe also aearee, then the white hair, was originaly white feathers, but I'm not sure if one of them would like to be merged forever with a entity connected to earth).
[EDIT]
And in Netheril, Jannath was said to be connected to fey... |
Edited by - Baltas on 13 Mar 2015 09:26:34 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Caladan Brood
Senior Scribe
Norway
410 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2016 : 16:26:37
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| I should think that creating your own entirely original content would get you noticed by the industry a lot quicker than just respinning someone else's content. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2016 : 14:39:23
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Also, it's rather late, but I allways found it interesting that in Faerun, Isis took over for Ishtar, as in reall life, they very probably were originally the same goddess. Isis, is the Hellenized form of Isis' name, the proper one is Iset/Ishet, obviously connected to Ishtar. Isis' Thayan name, Isharia, is also very similar to both Ishet and Ishtar.
The idea of the Sumerian and Babyloninian split of the pantheon, is nice, but I believe it would be more among the lines of Sumerian and ProtoSemitic split.
Ishtar/Inanna though is a very fractured, very primordial goddess. The split between Ishtar and Inanna though, as I mentioned, I think was less Sumerian and Babylonian, and more of Sumerian(Inanna) and proto-Semitic/Semito-Hammitic/Afro-Asiatic(Ishtar/Ishet).
Historically Inanna further fractured into herself and HannahHannah/Hebat/Kebat/Cybele(Hurrian/Fryggian goddess), while Ishtsar fragmented into herself, Astarte, Asherah, Anat and probably Isis. Anat further gave rise to the Greek Athena, and Carthaginian Tanit, While Astarte is seen as the origin of Aphrodite. Aphrodite even has Adonis, who's obviously Adon/Tammuz/Dummuzid. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2016 : 20:31:23
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That's a lot of fracturing and I wouldn't be surprised if the idea for Ishtar being Isis came from real world history (it wouldn't be the first time a few ideas were borrowed from real world in FR).
Having progressed my ideas on religion and mythology in the realms if I ever finish another Alternate Dimensions issue I will be moving away from deific actions completely and will present them merely as believed myth and religious stories in much the same as the real world bible which is probably how they should have been presented in the first place but with the godswar deific actions were all the rage.
So it is merely believed that religious propaganda by the church of Tempus that he fought and slew Targus and Garagos. In reality no one knows.
As for Unther and Mulhorand well they present a problem because those gods still have physical presences in the realms and so how does that affect a religion.
Ishtar we know left. Since I don't subscribe to the separate outer planes theory I'm going with Ishtar left for other lands and according to a single quote she likely ended up in the Shaar or further south along with many other Untheric gods.
What that means for the priests I don't know. Again I personally don't think the absence of a deity prevents spellcasting. In 1e (and maybe 2e) low level priests could cast spells without a god. Why is a patron deity needed what about shamans etc.
The low level of all the existing priests of Ishtar could be accounted for by the authorities slaying powerful or outspoken priests.
So what involvement does the church of Isis have with the church of Ishtar. I'm wondering if in the past the churches of Unther survived for a time in Thay (after Unther tried to re-establish its presence in the southern cities following the destruction of Narfell and Raumathar).
While Mulhorand's churches were expelled or eradicated during the rebellion the churches of Unther survived. However with their divine patrons having fled for other lands long ago they were in a poor state and so it was easy for priests from Isis's church and other Mulhorandi churches to secretly infiltrate them. I think that is why there are different names for the religions in Thay but I also think that infiltration fed back to native Unther over time and means that the church of Ishtar is actually represented by priests who in reality are mirroring the worship of Isis.
Ramman's worship may have survived intact because it had the structure of the army to support it.
To sum up I'm still moving away from direct deific involvement in the realms because it has brought little of gaming value to the realms and has detracted from it significantly because everyone wants to fight one.
Gilgeam of course is the sole exception because he has always had a physical presence in the realms. The rest of the Untheric gods are not detailed anywhere so I assume they have already fled. The Mulhorandi gods are represented by what appears to be a divinely infused mortal that acts as the figurehead of the church but otherwise the gods are not involved.
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2016 : 20:57:06
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Well, one of the more interesting stuff in older materials, was that they implied the fracture into the Sumerian and Babylonian pantheon, might have happened in Faerun. I think it's just possible that the Mesopotamian gods who came to Toril, were those before fracture, and simply mirrored their plannar counterparts in the fracture.
Isis taking over Ishtar's church was always seen as somewhat special, so I think maybe when Ishtar, Inanna and Isis(Ishet) came to Toril, all three were still, at least up to a level one divinity,
That's why Isis could take over Ishtar's church so easily, as she and Ishtar could be once one deity(they very probably were in reall life, aside from very similar names, both were the Queens of Heaven" etc), Isis had some special rights, once Ishtar left.
If Ishtar, Inanna and Isis/Ishet were originally one goddess even in Faerun, it would also fit the split. Ishtar is Neutral, Inanna was Lawful Evil, and Isis/Ishet/Isharia is Neutral good.
Also, seeing Ereshkigal was mentioned in Zakhara, I wouldn't be surprised if some Untheri deities escaped to Zakhara.
Not to mention, Midani, the Zakharan Language, is in the Untheric group of languages. This could be explained if one or more of Untheri deities(and their worshippers), fleed to Zakhara and influenced it's language. |
Edited by - Baltas on 24 Feb 2016 15:13:25 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2016 : 18:28:27
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So what do you think dazzlerdal?
I think it's possible that if Untheric deities escaped on places on Toril, one of those places could be Zakhara, seeing Ereshkigal being mentioned there, and Midani(the language of Zakhara) being of the Untheric group... |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
238 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2016 : 21:34:08
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| Have to say I really enjoy these Alternate Dimension PDFs. Quite inspiring to read. Really nice work. |
Edited by - deserk on 10 Mar 2016 21:34:44 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
238 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2016 : 23:38:48
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I like that you've tried to blend together the good ideas of all the editions, that's what I try to do myself. I'm not too concerned about canon, more concerned about what's interesting and fun, and what fits the spirit of the Realms.
I haven't gotten the chance to read all of the issues. But out of the ones I've read thus far I think the Moonshae Isles Issue was particularly awesome and valuable to me as DM. I liked the subtle additions you've brought to these islands, to make each stand out on it's own and feel distinct from each other. I feel it's very important for regions to be diverse with themes, power groups & organizations, races/cultures, etc. Also if there's anything I value extremely much when it comes to lore, it's a campaign guide or gazetter to help set a campaign in whatever region it's set in. And also I personally really like exploring lands that are beyond the Heartlands, since the Heartlands feel often kind of crowded already with content and limelight, while lands beyond it feel quite overlooked.
In terms of future content, would really love to see your take on the Hordelands. That region really could use some revisioning to make it feel part of the Realms, since the published work on it has so many overt parallels with RW history that draws one away from feeling that this is the Realms. Of course the Dragon Magazine article on the Endless Wastes really helped update that region a lot, though it was of course a rather short campaign gazetter. Would be cool to see some updating done on Murghom and Semphar too. Personally don't like that Semphar's ruler is called Abu Bakr and that it's a caliphate. Given that nation's Persian-like names for it's cities and also it's political situation in the Horde (2nd) book seeming to be modelled on on the medieval Persian state of Khwarezmid and it's wars with the Mongols (Tuigans), I think it would be cooler if Semphar was more influenced by Persia and specifically pre-Islamic Zoroastrian Persia, and maybe play around with dualist beliefs of a god of light (aspect of Selune? Lathander? Kossuth?) and a god of darkness (aspect of Shar?). Since we already have Calimshan and Zakhara for all that Arabian Nights/Islamic influence.
Also, not far from the Moonshae Isles, would be really cool to see the ancient and old, non-Moonshae Northlander Kingdoms of Ruathym, Tuern, Gundarlun and the Purple Rocks properly detailed and catalogued, as well as all the other ones. It would be neat if at least one of these islands had retained that ancient rune magic tradition that the early Northmen had, rather than all of them being magic-phobic. It's also interesting that Tuern so close to the eastern tip of Anchorome. But of course, the lore on these islands are a lot more sparse than what we have on the Moonshae Isles. |
Edited by - deserk on 11 Mar 2016 00:29:24 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2016 : 08:35:29
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The moonshaes was the most difficult to finish and I made a few mistakes like breaking eds rule of creating three questions for every lore answer provided.
I never intended to merge the editions with the moonshaes it just happened to evolve that way as I developed its history and kazgoroths story.
I hope to revisit it with a grand adventure arc which if TEGG get involved in the DMs guild I will pitch to them. It's a grand and perilous tour of the islands trying to stop kazgoroths return. And it also requires me to develop the sourcebook some more.
I have done some preliminary work on the hordelands and figured out what my focus is (which is the hardest and most crucial part as I then reread all published works and interpret it in the new focus). The hordelands will be a greater part of karatur and the whole mythology of the way/the path will be reinterpreted with imaskar in mind. Plus that ambuchar devayam/tan chin guy will be a main story point in several historic events.
I like the Eastern feel of the hordelands and karatur but I find the mythology uninspiring and lacking in cohesion or realism so I will probably do more westernised background to give the mythology some detail and logical reasoning behind it.
But that's a long way off. Im going to revisit damara, Vaasa, and narfell first and do a sourcebook on them. Damara is going to be much more intrigue filled ( like real world medieval feudal nations) while Vaasa will be the strife torn frontier land filled with ancient evils.
Then I want to finish netheri. Then I will do hordelands or the shaar or the old empires, whatever takes my fancy.
If you fancy having a go yourself I heartily recommend it. Doing work with a view to putting it out there makes you work that much harder. And I'd be happy to help or work collaboratively on a piece (as time allows). I'm already working on an adventure site with on of the scribes here which I think will end up on the DMs guild.
Now is the best time to make your own mark on the realms. The owners have stepped back and handed us the keys so let's open the door to a new shared world |
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Forgotten Realms: Alternate Dimensions
