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Crystyn
Seeker
58 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Mar 2014 : 20:53:55
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Warning includes Night of The Hunter, The Adversary and obviously Lady Penitent spoilers.
On page 161 Quenthel assumes Tsabrak will cast the most powerful spell a Drow had cast ever since Yvonnel obliterated house Oblodra.
Both spells pale compared to the spells Q'Arlynd Melarn and his disciples cast, wiping the knowledge of a goddess from all mortals memories subsequently killing her and returning untainted Drow to Dark Elves. At least the latter spell is known to have happened as Qilue aided them in removing the taint another incomparably powerful spell that was even aided by Eilistraee.
On a side note, when did House Melarn become a ruling house of Menzoberannzan?
I have always wondered why no one picked up on the story or even mentioned anything that happened in the Lady Penitent trilogy while War of the Spider Queen is often referenced.
Now it appears even other Drow Deities have returned or were never gone. Which further makes one wonder if Lady Penitent was simply declared non-canon
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Finally completed my Drizzt collection |
Edited by - Crystyn on 22 Mar 2014 20:57:12
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2014 : 20:59:10
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I don't know the official answer, and I haven't read it, but it sounds like the story was meant to be canon... from the date that it was set in until the date of the Sundering. The Sundering may return some powers to the Realms, but the events which have already transpired still happened.
This is just my opinion. I'm sure we'll get more explanation when it comes time to describe the drow pantheon in 5e game terms.
Edit: some Houses, individuals, and spells were undoubtedly invented for that story. House Melarn was apparently from Ched Nasad, not Menzoberranzan (from FR Wiki). It doesn't appear that House Melarn was mentioned in game sourcebooks prior to the novels. |
Edited by - xaeyruudh on 22 Mar 2014 21:04:06 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2014 : 22:01:58
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| The basic rule, if it has FR logo it is canon. Though as also noted canon can change based of anything more recent that carriers the FR logo. Until a source book or novel is released what has been printed is the best resource. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2014 : 22:53:25
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I got the impression that House Baenre will be annihilating House Melarn at the earliest opportunity. Quenthel is now effectively Matron Yvonnel the Eternal.
House Melarn first appeared in the 4E Realms Campaign book if I recall. I know for sure it's in the 4E Menzo book.
As for the gods returning. Well, dead gods don't seem to truly die. We can just look at Bane and Bhaal for that, even Myrkul is around in one form or another. Or they are very, very hard to permanently and utterly kill or destroy. And they only need 1 worshipper to keep hanging in there. I'd find it perfectly acceptable if Lolth's murderous rampages that slew the other drow deities only gained her "X" amount of years to consolidate her power before her rivals were able to reconstitute themselves. Or maybe even the nature of the Sundering is allowing this to happen. We have two worlds separating and I could see that washing out waves of power while that happens, that maybe divine essences can snatch it up to re-power themselves etc.
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2014 : 23:02:31
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Let's say, after some point continuity editing became... questionable to nonexistent. Given the sheer amount of author, and the settings popularity, this pretty much inevitably leads to the current situation: some books were written by the authors who actually pay attention to the continuity and lore and put some effort into upholding them and not running over everything their predecessors wrote - and some by the authors who, to the limit of our observations, don't give a jack for either. And this leads to more serious symptoms than "one character bumped the head and said something stupid". 
This usually leaves a fan the choice of two common roads:
1) Do what the continuity editor should have done: drop the erratic stuff that fails to make sense on its own or connect to anything else. Or...
2) Stretch and break everything else to fit those random bits. Answer the question "what's even the point?" popping up just as inevitably with wringing of hands and insistence on respect to the work of the authors who quite obviously didn't do their homework and/or show they actually care about the setting, instead of those who did. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2014 : 00:16:32
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As said above, LP is considered canon, but stuff changes, gods are hard to kill and generally have backup plans for dire situations, so they can always return (as it is happening with the Sundering).
As for why the story hasn't been continued, well it's because of various reasons, IMO. For example, the assumption upon which the series is based doesn't make much sense. Why the hell should Eilistraee and Vhaeraun -who fight so that the drow can shape a future that is their own- accept to play by the same rules they're rebelling against (Lolth's rules. Btw who in their mind would accept to play by them) and gamble their quest and everything over it?
Also there's the issue of the sacrifice, which is kind of stupid and ooc. It is basically ''saving'' the drow who don't need it (the ones already free from the brainwashing) and giving the middle finger to the ones who may need it (the ones still ''evil''). It removes depth from a race just to add some wood elves to the setting (to me the ''redemption'' is far from being interesting, if compared to the inner conflicts and drama the DS brought to the drow) and the pseudo-original sin that it implies isn't exactly appealing, IMO.
Besides Eilistraeens and Vhaerunites are proud and well-pleased with their drow-ness and their identity, what they are and chose to be. I believe that they would neither need nor want the ''cleansing'' which was imposed upon them, something that -btw- Eilistraee would despise, according to her character. I mean, she is all about drow being able to forge their own way, instead of follwing the one dictated by Lolth; forcing such a heavy change on her people would definitely go against that principle.
PS: There was an attempt to define the story in a recently published sourcebook (basically it had E and V both giving up their divinity through the game in order to cleanse the dark elves, becoming archfey and still going on with their quest), but WotC decided to edit it out. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 23 Mar 2014 00:23:36 |
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Crystyn
Seeker
58 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2014 : 06:44:03
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Personally I liked the drow pantheon being only lolth. They are her race and Lolth would never stop waging war on any god who tries to enter it, and Lolth is pretty good at it.
I was also wondering since when Quenthel was supposed to be dumb and weak, she didn't struck me as such in WoTSQ and she even managed to become matron mother by her own devices.
All in all there's an unusual amount of inconsistencies during sundering so far, though I read and loved each one of them. |
Finally completed my Drizzt collection |
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ksu_bond
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
214 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2014 : 07:08:19
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Though the Drow may "belong" to Lolth ... E and V were "banished" for their role in the attack on the Seladrin ... V's "loyalty" and "trust" in Lolth evaporated when the attack on the Seladrin failed and spent his efforts since that time attempting to grow his own power by forging a path separate from Lolth and outside of her shadow (not to mention the male drow eagerly, though covertly, sought out his faith) ... and E was willingly "banished" because she knew that the Drow would need someone to help return them to the "light" ... which makes sense to me ...
If there was only Lolth, the Drow would be little different than any number of EVIL underdark races... |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2014 : 10:57:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Crystyn
Personally I liked the drow pantheon being only lolth. They are her race and Lolth would never stop waging war on any god who tries to enter it, and Lolth is pretty good at it.
True, so let conflict happen, but have it as an ongoing event (as it was in first place), don't get rid of valid and cool deities because of that. Removing their factions was a bad choice IMO, because it deleted a lot of the options and depth that the drow had. Their society/situation easily lends itself to the 'struggle for freedom' kind of drama: it only makes sense that -with time- groups of drow who managed to break free would try to aid their own people, make them rebel, and E and V are leaders/symbols of this fight (and not -bam, worship me and you're good to go- kind of solution).
As drow are now -if we exclude a handful of characters-, they can be considered mere one-note brainwashed villains whose only motivations to act are 'powah and ebil' and 'Loth said so', with the added factor of cool (because they are drow, so they are skillful, beautiful, intriguing and so on).
Also when reading about conflicts, it'd be cool if the majority of the parts involved didn't act as they were braindead, because that's what the DS gods did.
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 23 Mar 2014 14:27:16 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2014 : 13:51:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Crystyn
Personally I liked the drow pantheon being only lolth. They are her race and Lolth would never stop waging war on any god who tries to enter it, and Lolth is pretty good at it.
Then explain Selvetarm.  |
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Crystyn
Seeker
58 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2014 : 22:21:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Crystyn
Personally I liked the drow pantheon being only lolth. They are her race and Lolth would never stop waging war on any god who tries to enter it, and Lolth is pretty good at it.
Then explain Selvetarm.
Spoiler: she offed him after he beat Vhaeraun to a pulp, given she tolerated him for a while but he was more of a champion than a rival.
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Finally completed my Drizzt collection |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2014 : 02:09:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Crystyn
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Crystyn
Personally I liked the drow pantheon being only lolth. They are her race and Lolth would never stop waging war on any god who tries to enter it, and Lolth is pretty good at it.
Then explain Selvetarm.
Spoiler: she offed him after he beat Vhaeraun to a pulp, given she tolerated him for a while but he was more of a champion than a rival.
But he was her servant for quite a long time. So she was not waging war on him. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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jerrod
Learned Scribe
157 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2014 : 02:51:52
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| Because she had already corrupted selvetarm at the moment of his apotheosis,and it seems to me that she only kept him around as long as she did,because of the emotional pain it caused elistraee,and the insult to vhearaun's pride. I think this because keep in mind selvetarm didn't last long after both E and V were vanquished. |
I haven't been here in years but I used to be DARKFLAME MILLITHOR(DROW ARCHMAGE of wildmagic |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2014 : 03:12:27
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*shrugs* I'm just saying, there was a drow deity who existed for more than a little while, who Lolth did not wage war upon.
Actually, I don't recall her really waging war on Ghaunadaur, either. Granted, he wasn't overly active in the drow pantheon, but he was there. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1152 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2014 : 17:56:19
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| House Melarn was resurrected in Menzoberranzan when House Horlbar, House Kenafin and a bunch of Nasadran refugees joined forces in 1384 DR. They named it in honour of the Lady Penitent. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
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Edited by - hashimashadoo on 24 Mar 2014 17:57:10 |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2014 : 08:38:04
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Let's say, after some point continuity editing became... questionable to nonexistent. Given the sheer amount of author, and the settings popularity, this pretty much inevitably leads to the current situation: some books were written by the authors who actually pay attention to the continuity and lore and put some effort into upholding them and not running over everything their predecessors wrote - and some by the authors who, to the limit of our observations, don't give a jack for either. And this leads to more serious symptoms than "one character bumped the head and said something stupid".
This usually leaves a fan the choice of two common roads:
1) Do what the continuity editor should have done: drop the erratic stuff that fails to make sense on its own or connect to anything else. Or...
2) Stretch and break everything else to fit those random bits. Answer the question "what's even the point?" popping up just as inevitably with wringing of hands and insistence on respect to the work of the authors who quite obviously didn't do their homework and/or show they actually care about the setting, instead of those who did.
So true.
Hashimadoo already explained how House Melarn came to be in Menzo. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2014 : 22:20:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Crystyn
Warning includes Night of The Hunter, The Adversary and obviously Lady Penitent spoilers.
On page 161 Quenthel assumes Tsabrak will cast the most powerful spell a Drow had cast ever since Yvonnel obliterated house Oblodra.
Both spells pale compared to the spells Q'Arlynd Melarn and his disciples cast, wiping the knowledge of a goddess from all mortals memories subsequently killing her and returning untainted Drow to Dark Elves. At least the latter spell is known to have happened as Qilue aided them in removing the taint another incomparably powerful spell that was even aided by Eilistraee.
But did she know about that spell? I doubt many know this ever happened (would kind of weaken the spell itself if it were to widely known) |
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Is Lady Penitent non canon?
