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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Mar 2014 : 03:41:47
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So Wikipedia says that Jeff Grubb's home campaign world was called Toril...before the Forgotten Realms was published...
Anyone have comment?
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The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2014 : 03:45:36
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Yup - AFAIK Ed didn't have a name for the planet itself, and Grubb used his, and then they pasted 'Abeir' onto it so it would come first in the index.
Which makes you wonder why he didn't JUST use 'Abeir'. 
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Mar 2014 03:46:26 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2014 : 04:16:16
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| Jeff contributed the name of the planet [Toril, to which he added the prefix Abeir to shift the world entry to the front of the alphabetical listings in the Old Grey Box] from his campaign. Ed had no world name because the folks in Faerûn knew they lived on something that curved, but considered it all one land. Ed's thinking was that "everyone" knew about the land they lived in, and its boundary seas, but not every culture "of today," Realmstime, knew it was on a spherical planet. There were various names among the Netherese, modern Halruaans, elves, etc, for the planet, but there was no one commonly-accepted one. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2014 : 04:18:38
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Makes me very curious what Jeff's Toril was like.  |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2014 : 05:32:23
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I'm not sure there's ever really been a Grubb interview where he was asked about his original Toril. It'd be interesting to hear it or see it, if there was.
But I sort of doubt that it was very fleshed out. When TSR felt that they needed a new campaign world for play, seems like they would've used Grubb's Toril if it had been detailed. By contrast, Ed's Realms apparently had decades of rich development.
I'd imagine that they used small bits and pieces (perhaps a deity, or a place name) here and there when needed for setting development and publication, but it's probably 95% Ed and 5% Jeff, not including the Alias and Dragonbait novels, of course. And with Jeff as the primary working editor-developer for publication.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Marco Volo
Learned Scribe
France
204 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2014 : 07:50:28
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| The goddess Waukyne is also Grubb's creation from his original Toril. |
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Plaguescarred
Learned Scribe
Canada
190 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2014 : 09:53:32
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| Cool thanks i didn't know that. Anything else from Jeff's campaign in FR? |
Yan
Playtester |
Edited by - Plaguescarred on 11 Mar 2014 09:54:00 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1882 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2014 : 10:40:02
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quote:
I'd imagine that they used small bits and pieces (perhaps a deity, or a place name) here and there when needed for setting development and publication, but it's probably 95% Ed and 5% Jeff
I dunno, seems to me Jeff Grubb likely contributed more than '5%' to the mix. I could be wrong, of course. But of all the other contributors to the Realms, JG seemed to really understand the Realms. I'm sure he has many other contributions to the Realms from his own game...even if they aren't obvious to us today. It's hard not to inject your own concepts methinks. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2014 : 12:20:26
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Jeff Grubb was merely the first:
I suspect that at this point in time, The Forgotten Realms is about 50% 'Ed' at best, and 50% bits & pieces of every other designer's home game. We know huge swaths of Slade's and Paul Jaquay' stuff made it into the Realms as well, but there is probably tons more we are unaware of. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2014 : 14:16:50
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No, as far as I can tell, it's nowhere near 50-50.
At a Milwaukee-era GenCon I once had lunch with Dave Sutherland (head of art for TSR at the time, I think) and he said Maztica and Kara-Tur were wholesale TSR additions (from the former history teachers Doug Niles and Zeb Cook), but otherwise things were pretty much Ed, geographically. In later chats with Ed, I'd amend that to say on the continent of Faerun, because Malatra (the Living Jungle RPGA campaign) and the other continents were TSR and WotC additions, though the 4e continent detailed in the 4e Realms core book was created by Ed, with the only staff addition being "make sure there are Primordials in it."
Scott Haring did a light detailing of Calimshan in FR3, and Steven Schend detailed Amn and Tethyr way beyond Ed's scanty notes in Lands of Intrigue (and also edited and created various new lower levels of Undermountain), but a lot of the other products (FR4 and FR5, for example) were almost entirely Ed-lore. You've got to bear in mind that at times there was deliberate company policy to underplay Ed's visible hand in Realms products, to "avoid creating another Weis and Hickman" who could demands big money and have huge editorial influence.
In many cases, something created by someone else for the Realms (Salvatore's Menzoberranzan, for example) became something Ed was asked to flesh out and detail for publication, so "everything would fit."
I once talked with Ed and Jeff Grubb after a GenCon seminar, and Jeff said his campaign was "pretty free-wheeling," often trying out new dungeons before they were published, and that all of the cities were named after popular songs of either the crooner era or Sixties pop, and so were totally unsuitable for published use.
Myself, I'd say the names, overall geography (before the map changes of 3e and then 4e), and overall flavor of the Realms are about 90 percent Ed, and the ground-level detail in some places is 90 percent Ed and in other specific places is 60 percent to 40 percent Ed - - but those places tend to be very local (buildings, neighborhoods, or individual cities described in a novel or adventure, that were chosen because there was no published lore on them, so whatever Ed-lore existed could be ignored). Jeff did tell me that Ed produced reams and reams of background lore on everything they asked him to, for years, from publishable-quality maps to fictional snippets to flesh out characters, and they usually had to tell him to stop, not beg for more. So if an author wanted to go to city X or town Y, they'd ask Ed what he had on it, and often get way too much. 
One caveat: the "history" of the Realms from 1357-ish onwards, that we've seen happen before our eyes in novels and game products, has been the work of all the creative people working in the Realms, with Ed just one among them.
Yes, reading back through what I've just typed, this all seems right. This topic happens to be something that interests me a lot, so I've asked and listened and attended seminars and so on quite a bit, down the years, and heard a lot from people "at the time" before later people came on the scene and started revising history to fit their views.
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3248 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2014 : 15:49:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade...and that all of the cities were named after popular songs of either the crooner era or Sixties pop, and so were totally unsuitable for published use.
This just makes me want to visit the wonderful city of "Runaround Sue".  |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2014 : 20:00:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade
No, as far as I can tell, it's nowhere near 50-50 <snip>
I think, maybe because its ME, you may have assumed I was talking only about the geography.*
YES, the geography remains mostly Ed's (and you failed to mention two major add-ons right from the beginning - The Moonshaes and The Bloodstone Lands), BUT, the lore does not, most especially Netheril, and everything that has been drawn from that, which is quite a bit at this point. The whole setting now revolves around the Shades and The Shadow-Weave - things Ed never envisioned for the Realms. So while the continent (just the one) remains very similar to Ed's, really, nothing else is. How many of Ed's NPC's are still around? How many of his plots (organizations, etc) are still in-play?
No... it not the same world. Not by a long shot.
*EDIT: And also the subject of the thread - my bad. I was thinking about ALL the differences, but this thread is supposed to be about the world itself - sorry.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Mar 2014 20:02:06 |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2014 : 03:48:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade...and that all of the cities were named after popular songs of either the crooner era or Sixties pop, and so were totally unsuitable for published use.
This just makes me want to visit the wonderful city of "Runaround Sue".
Following the conflict with the orcs, our stalwart heroes left their home town of In-a-Gadda-Da-Vida and proceeded south to the seaside village of Ob-La-Di Ob-La-Da where they were to meet the venerable Sage Aretha.
Lady Aretha was wise and kind, and understood well the deep dungeons of R-E-S-P-E-C-T and the mythical underhold called Ring of Fire.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2014 : 04:51:51
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Toril is not exactly an "exclusive" name. Heck, it's the name of a district (exact spelling) in my hometown, Davao City. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2014 : 05:06:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Toril is not exactly an "exclusive" name. Heck, it's the name of a district (exact spelling) in my hometown, Davao City.
Nope, it isn't exclusive...it IS the name Jeff used for his home campaign and then applied to the Forgotten Realms though. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2014 : 01:22:26
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Markustay, the Moonshaes weren't an add on, they were a switch. Ed's original Realms had Moonshae Isles in that location. What happened when TSR bought the Realms was that the "Albion" campaign (horse called Avalon, Vikings, England, Celtic stuff, etc.) that Doug Niles had developed on his own got switched in for Ed's Moonshaes, and they got switched out.
And I would say most of Ed's organizations are still in play (Cult of the Dragon, Red Wizards, Harpers, and so on; all his).
Other than those points, can't disagree with your post. Except to point out that the wiser designers, from Jeff and Steven and Julia Martin on through the years to Chris Perkins (who actually penned a Wizard webite column entitled "A Love Letter To Ed Greenwood") listen to Ed, consult him, and often let him "Realmsify" the new ideas and notions to make it all seem to fit together better.
I just wish everyone did that. (Sigh.)
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2014 : 12:27:32
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Well, yeah, I understand all that... but they weren't "Ed's Moonshaes". In fact, there were major differences in dwarves, elves, trolls, and even culture with the rest of the continent, which didn't shoe-horn so well on some levels (like 'The Earthmother'). Don't get me wrong - I like The Moonshaes - its just that it always felt like a different setting to me.
I tried contacting Jeff Grubb for his input in this thread, but thus-far no response. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1288 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2014 : 17:34:59
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First Public mention of the Moonshaes:
Greenwood, Ed."More Pages from the Mages," Dragon, January 1983 pgs 71-72.
It mentions the Sage Flamsterd and his vanishing.
Very INteresting.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1727 Posts |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2014 : 04:10:24
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Thanks for posting the link, Steven.
That link includes another link to a post by Jeff Grub, wherein he details about 30 factoids of the history behind the Realms.
A must read for anyone interested in the history of how the Forgotten Realms came to be and its early years in TSR's hands. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 08 Apr 2014 07:20:26 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2014 : 08:00:32
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Awesome share Jeremy!
I love Jeff Grubb so much I tried to get him to come on with Ravenlore as a Contributing Editor...but he is too busy. <much sadness> |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Plaguescarred
Learned Scribe
Canada
190 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2014 : 11:00:23
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quote:
25) We retrofit a number of D&D Products that were in the works into the Realms, including N5, Under Illefarn, the Bloodstone Pass H series, and I3-5, which were being repackaged. Part of what made this work was the idea that the Realms was everyone’s campaign from 1975, and was supposed to be able to handle most of what the DMs would throw at it.
Amazed to hear that among the products retrofitted was one of my favorite Realms product N5 Under Illfarn, and that it wasn't even originally planned to be a FR product. #SoGladItDiD!
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Yan
Playtester |
Edited by - Plaguescarred on 08 Apr 2014 11:03:51 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2014 : 14:40:19
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You guys suck... you beat me to the punch.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Apr 2014 14:40:38 |
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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2014 : 13:55:06
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| Steven Schend shows exactly what I was looking for earlier. Very cool article (and shared by Gaming Paper on the Book of Faces earlier today). |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2014 : 16:31:49
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| That was a fun read. Wizards should take that original map Ed has and sell them as posters for 19.99 so I can buy one. ;) |
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Plaguescarred
Learned Scribe
Canada
190 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2014 : 16:46:16
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15 things about Al-Qadim design revealed by Jeff Grubb you might not know;
http://grubbstreet.blogspot.ca/ |
Yan
Playtester |
Edited by - Plaguescarred on 15 Apr 2014 16:47:22 |
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Plaguescarred
Learned Scribe
Canada
190 Posts |
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Jeff Grubb and Toril
