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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Mar 2014 : 05:05:54
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Very well put, Eltheron. I thought most of those products were okay, and some were pretty good, myself, despite owning lots of 2e stuff. But I'm the kind of guy who pores over the books, looks at what's the same and what's different and gets a high from linking everything together (4e went absolutely too far in that I can't draw the lines anymore, they're just so disconnected).
So, yes, I can see why 3e FR products couldn't really sell that well among any reasonably large demographic. Which then brought us 4e. I'm not sure if fresh creativity from people like Ed can, but I at least would love if they gave that a shot, too. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 02 Mar 2014 05:06:12 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2014 : 05:36:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I want that "WOW" moment when I crack a campaign guide... and I am hoping that the 4eFR setting does that for me. If not, I am not going to cry about it; I will simply move on.
Think you might be a few years late on that one.   |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2014 : 09:53:49
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Here. We. Go.
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
Arguing that copy-repaste-rehash is a solution to help those new fans truly misses the actual problem. At best, this method of "updating" any IP is ultimately self-defeating. New fans are best served by making older re-prints available.
That’s actually the worst strategy possible.
At the start of 3E’s reign, WotC had two goals.
One: revitalize the tabletop roleplaying game market by successfully relaunching Dungeons & Dragons under the D20 system, in order to capture a new fan base and port over older D&D fans still playing 2nd Edition.
Two, revitalize and relaunch the Forgotten Realms.
To do the second goal, WotC realized they had to satisfy older Realms fans who were concerned about how the older lore would be treated by WotC and who expected new books to reflect that lore, and who wanted as many stories, plot lines and thread hooks carried forward as possible.
They also realized they had to bring in new fans and get them up to speed on what the Realms is (not a small task, that).
Serving new and old fans meant producing books that collated the already extant lore, and then updating it to reflect a Realms that had moved forward in time (both as a result of various novels and because of brand new events introduced by WotC in the sourcebooks, particularly the FRCS).
Suggesting that new fans are best served by pointing them to older books in lieu of new ones is just a really bad idea. Consider if WotC said this,
“Here’s Drizzt’s Guide to the Underdark and the Menzo boxed set, kid. What’s that? Noooo…silly! We think giving you one new book that draws from all the disparate sources that have produced good Realmslore and gaming information for the Underdark over the last fifteen years is a really bad idea. If you’re that inspired by the War of the Spider Queen series or have a hankering to run City of the Spider Queen, then it’s your responsibility to convert or make up all the D20 rules information you think you’ll need for things like monsters, terrain hazards and combat sites unique to the Underark. I mean come on, we’re giving you this old stuff for free and we’re not making any money on it! Good luck converting all the rules information to the current edition and May the Force be with you when you try to find everything you need from all these different books kid!”
It reads like business advice drawn from a Dilbert comic strip.
Thank God they published Underdark. I’m about as old a Realms fan as they come but I never owned either the Menzo box or Drizzt’s Guide, and I have to tell you Underdark is one of my favorite 3E books, as well as one of the most used books in my 3E collection. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 02 Mar 2014 10:04:43 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2014 : 10:01:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
Relying on copy-repaste-rehash for decades means that you're essentially asking your customers to constantly pay for the same thing over and over again.
For decades? 3E lasted all of seven…eight years.
The one good thing I can find in your statement is that it forms the basis for a pretty good argument for the idea of moving the timeline forward, say a century, and then taking a fresh look at the Realms.
Because if you slow the timeline down to a crawl and then focus on the same areas over and over, eventually you run out of anything worthwhile to print.
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
And particularly with the decades of hints we've been teased with - that Ed sent TSR (and WotC) tons and tons of material, they're telling us "sorry, you can't have that awesome unpublished stuff even though it's totally available in our vaults."
Good idea. But WotC beat you to it. It’s called “Ed Greenwood Presents: Elminster’s Guide to the Forgotten Realms”.
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
Instead, we got Cormyr,
WotC did not release a 3E Cormyr sourcebook.
One hardback adventure (that had a small slice of sourcebook-like information for the area in Cormyr where the adventure was situated), one softcover adventure and a few adventures in Dungeon magazine.
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
and Waterdeep and the Sword Coast over and over and over again.
The Silver Marches and City of Splendors come to mind, but that’s it.
Just in case you forgot the other sourcebook titles: Champions of Ruin, Champions of Valor, Lords of Darkness, Lost Empires of Faerun, Faiths and Pantheons, Magic of Faerun, Mysteries of the Moonsea, Players Guide to Faerun, Races of Faerun, Serpent Kingdoms, Shining South, Unapproachable East, Underdark.
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
Could they have done a big "annual update" book every year touching on all the new developments in every region?
There was a pretty good update in the Player’s Guide to Faerun.
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
Could they have had big detailed splatbooks on Rashemen, Aglarond, Tethyr, and so on?
Unfortunately books like these, despite the price point increase that all Realms books are sold under, wouldn’t have made much money, because most campaigns aren’t set in these regions.
There is (or was, at the time) a real, measurable drop off in sales and interest the further out you moved from the Heartlands.
Don’t get me wrong: I’d have bought up a book on Tethyr.
I asked more than once for a Cormyr sourcebook too. But a lot of people responded with, “It’s been done to death,” even though they knew they were talking about all the material for Cormyr released previous to 3E. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 02 Mar 2014 10:15:39 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2014 : 10:52:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
Here. We. Go.
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
Arguing that copy-repaste-rehash is a solution to help those new fans truly misses the actual problem. At best, this method of "updating" any IP is ultimately self-defeating. New fans are best served by making older re-prints available.
That’s actually the worst strategy possible.
At the start of 3E’s reign, WotC had two goals.
One: revitalize the tabletop roleplaying game market by successfully relaunching Dungeons & Dragons under the D20 system, in order to capture a new fan base and port over older D&D fans still playing 2nd Edition.
Two, revitalize and relaunch the Forgotten Realms.
To do the second goal, WotC realized they had to satisfy older Realms fans who were concerned about how the older lore would be treated by WotC and who expected new books to reflect that lore, and who wanted as many stories, plot lines and thread hooks carried forward as possible.
They also realized they had to bring in new fans and get them up to speed on what the Realms is (not a small task, that).
Serving new and old fans meant producing books that collated the already extant lore, and then updating it to reflect a Realms that had moved forward in time (both as a result of various novels and because of brand new events introduced by WotC in the sourcebooks, particularly the FRCS).
Suggesting that new fans are best served by pointing them to older books in lieu of new ones is just a really bad idea. Consider if WotC said this,
“Here’s Drizzt’s Guide to the Underdark and the Menzo boxed set, kid. What’s that? Noooo…silly! We think giving you one new book that draws from all the disparate sources that have produced good Realmslore and gaming information for the Underdark over the last fifteen years is a really bad idea. If you’re that inspired by the War of the Spider Queen series or have a hankering to run City of the Spider Queen, then it’s your responsibility to convert or make up all the D20 rules information you think you’ll need for things like monsters, terrain hazards and combat sites unique to the Underark. I mean come on, we’re giving you this old stuff for free and we’re not making any money on it! Good luck converting all the rules information to the current edition and May the Force be with you when you try to find everything you need from all these different books kid!”
It reads like business advice drawn from a Dilbert comic strip.
Thank God they published Underdark. I’m about as old a Realms fan as they come but I never owned either the Menzo box or Drizzt’s Guide, and I have to tell you Underdark is one of my favorite 3E books, as well as one of the most used books in my 3E collection.
One of the most sensible things said in a long time and one I agree with (except for the part about the Underdark book, I hated that one). A lot of the 3ed. books are not that useful for a person that owns all the TSR books and who don't run 3ed. but one should remember that WotC aimed for a broad audience with a core of 3ed. fans which is logical and sensible from a publishing point. And one that succeeded. I don't like the books, but I am outside the broad majority fanbase they were looking for and who were mostly happy . |
No Canon, more stories, more Realms. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2014 : 10:54:52
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quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
The Forgotten Realms is just an imaginary placed own by a corporation, made as cheaply as possible in order to produce a profit. There is no continuity or care placed on it, they are not even trying to produce art. Ed's only value to Hasbro is his marketing value.
Even considering the shrinking headcount and outsourcing done by WotC of late, yours is a pretty ****ed up set of things to say.
What is it with the oldest of the old grognards who've left the setting years ago that the best they can seem to do is find ways to verbally shit on the modern Realms and otherwise drive home one highly cynical and poorly informed point after another, whenever they come back around for a look see? |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 02 Mar 2014 10:58:38 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2014 : 11:05:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
The Forgotten Realms is just an imaginary placed own by a corporation, made as cheaply as possible in order to produce a profit. There is no continuity or care placed on it, they are not even trying to produce art. Ed's only value to Hasbro is his marketing value.
Even considering the shrinking headcount and outsourcing done by WotC of late, yours is a pretty ****ed up set of things to say.
What is it with the oldest of the old grognards who've left the setting years ago that the best they can seem to do is find ways to verbally shit on the modern Realms and otherwise drive home one highly cynical and poorly informed point after another, whenever they come back around for a look see?
What is it with people who have a constant need to generalize and brand everyone who disagrees with them in a way that they can blame the most people without having to stand up for what they say?
Call me an A..hole to my face by all means, but don't throw out a lot of generalizations (old fan, grognard, typical Candlekeeper etc) that include me for the umpteenth time without the quotes to back it up. |
No Canon, more stories, more Realms. |
Edited by - Jorkens on 02 Mar 2014 11:06:39 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2014 : 11:53:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
What is it with people who have a constant need to generalize and brand everyone who disagrees with them in a way that they can blame the most people without having to stand up for what they say?
I don't know. And who are you talking about anyway?
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Call me an A..hole to my face by all means, but don't throw out a lot of generalizations (old fan, grognard, typical Candlekeeper etc)...
"A lot" of generalizations?
Hell, I thought I was being pretty specific:
IF
You're a grognard;
and you don't follow the setting anymore;
and you rarely visit Candlekeep;
and when you do visit you don't have anything nice to say about the current iteration of the Realms;
THEN
Why even visit?
Worse, why write something so utterly negative and cynical that it's sure to peel off a few of whatever fans that are left and discourage them?
Why look down your nose at everything that's been produced since your favorite edition was retired and work really hard to find nothing good in it whatsoever?
It doesn't make any sense to me. It's just evil.
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
...that include me for the umpteenth time without the quotes to back it up.
You mean like quoting someone (like I did above) before making a statement about their commentary so quoted?
Here's some advice: the next time you read something from me that pisses you off, stop, breathe, and think. Walk away from the computer. Do something else. And don't post for at least the next ten minutes. Saves a lot of trouble.
I waited 2/3 of a day before posting in response to Eltheron and ended up producing a post you liked. The key to that success was ignoring the post where he got pissy with me and addressing his comments that were worth responding too.
I'm sorry that didn't work out for you RE: Paul's (GMWestermeyer) post, but I couldn't think of a better way to address it. In hindsight I probably should have just ignored it, but when it comes to sweeping generalizations--especially the kind that just kill the idea of having fun and enjoying the Realms--well I just can't let stuff like that go.
The Realms is about having fun. That's the whole point of the setting: finding ways to enjoy it. If you're not about having fun anymore, why post in a way that can kill the fun for other people? |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 02 Mar 2014 12:11:58 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3813 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2014 : 12:31:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
The Forgotten Realms is just an imaginary placed own by a corporation, made as cheaply as possible in order to produce a profit. There is no continuity or care placed on it, they are not even trying to produce art. Ed's only value to Hasbro is his marketing value.
Even considering the shrinking headcount and outsourcing done by WotC of late, yours is a pretty ****ed up set of things to say.
Idk about this, WotC and Hasbro are in for the profit, after all. If they find that the customers who prefer (or are fine with) ''cheap'' content are significantly more than the ones who don't, they are likely to publish such material. I think that it's all about what kind of product people ask for and are willing to buy.
This is a cynical way to see this matter, but it's more likely to be true than big corporates actually caring not only for the market value of what they dish out, but also for its intrinsical value. Note that I'm not talking about the people who make the (published) Realms (who are enthusiasts, as it can be seen in these forums), but the ones who are tasked with the management of the resources available to the company.
This is just my opinion, ofc. I don't know such people and might very well be wrong, what I wrote is simply the impression I get from how corporates act. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 02 Mar 2014 12:50:39 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2014 : 14:18:41
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| Folks, I think we all need to step back from the keyboards and relax a bit. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Mr Dark
Seeker
50 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2014 : 14:38:48
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I think a bit of my history may be in order.
My first taste of the Realms was a used copy of the Greybox bought in a comic shop around '91 or '92. This was used in my 2e campaign for years. Since the area I lived in had no game shops and the closest one being 60 miles away, there was little chance of getting any extra AD&D or FR material; especially on a teenagers budget.
After a break in gaming, a divorce and better financial standing I finally got back into playing and the Realms around '01 or '02. So, to me the material was great. It was only after I began collecting the older stuff that I noticed some repeat but, only enough in the way of past history to keep things consistent.
No, I did not like the 4e changes and did not buy any of the 4e stuff. My current campaign uses material from all that I own and avoids things like the Spellplague, the ToT and other things I felt were contrived. I do look forward to 5e but only if WOTC keeps to the idea that we can play in any era.
So trust me when I say that if there was any repeat in material it was a good thing for many of us. |
Canon stops where the table begins. |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2014 : 16:27:51
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You know, I had a fairly detailed reply to Jeremy's last response to me. I took extra time to make sure it was as civil as possible, because I really don't mind if people take issue with my opinions or my perceptions. Other people have their own opinions and perceptions, and mutual agreement in a discussion isn't always possible.
In that reply, I wanted to point out that my main issue with the copy-repaste-rehash issue of late 2E and most of 3E wasn't about stat blocks and crunch. Obviously those do need updating. But what I've always wanted was more fresh LORE material, more Realms goodness, and for years it seemed like much of what we got was copied and edited lore from earlier publications with only very small lore updates. I'm fine if people want to disagree with that perception, but it's exactly how I felt and still feel about many of those products. And honestly, a LOT of people held this opinion, not just me; it's not a “meme” that is simply being repeated. Calling it a “meme” is just an attempt to devalue my very real, and well-considered opinion.
People may also disagree with me on what method for updating material is best, and that's fine. Personally, I would've liked an annual “Update to the Realms” book giving us lore and clack for all the different regions, instead of the highly dispersed editing method WotC chose within sourcebooks. And about this, even disagreeing with what I would've liked is fine.
But somewhere along the line, this happened:
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
What is it with people who have a constant need to generalize and brand everyone who disagrees with them in a way that they can blame the most people without having to stand up for what they say?
I don't know. And who are you talking about anyway?
(snip) It's just evil.
Jeremy, I think you know perfectly well that he was referring to you. You consistently attack people in a generalized way that groups up (most often) older fans and labels them in an extremely nasty way. You hide behind those generalizations such that you aren't directly calling anyone out by name. But anyone who has been around for any length of time here knows that your goal is to silence people you disagree with and drive them from the boards. You've acted this way under multiple handles and on different boards. You don't just disagree with peoples' opinions or perceptions, you attack people with generalizations and labels, and often you get away with it.
But calling people “evil” for sharing their opinions and perceptions is really the lowest low that I've ever seen on this board. The definition of evil is “profoundly immoral and malevolent” and calling someone that, here, goes far beyond being just uncivil and nasty.
As GMWestermyer wisely said in this very thread, people need to remember that the Realms is not real. It's a game, with make-believe products. Opinions and perceptions of said make-believe material, good AND bad, serve to tell the producing company what the customer/community wants. Disagreeing with others' opinions and perceptions is fine, attacking people (even if carefully crafted to be indirect), is not okay. The game is make-believe, but the people participating here are real.
Attacking other people, even when you purposely avoid names and group people up, is firmly against the Candlekeep Code of Conduct:
quote:
5. Always be courteous and polite to other members, Wizards of the Coast (WotC) staff and freelance authors who are involved in the development of WotC material. Remember, some WotC employees are members of the forum. Openly attacking other members will result in the suspension of your account.
I am therefore calling on the moderators to seriously consider what has happened here, as well as the context of this person's past posting history with multiple name-handles. Calling people “evil,” even if it's cloaked in a wide group generalization, damages everyone who posts here. It undermines the core purpose of a fan website: community-building. It's not right in any way, shape or form.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 02 Mar 2014 16:39:54 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2014 : 18:03:51
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I have been uncomfortable with this thread since its inception, which is part of why I've had little to contribute to it.
It's gone to an ugly place, and I don't see any further value in allowing it to continue. I am closing this thread, and further actions in regard to specific participants will be discussed by myself, Sage, and Big Al.
We're done, here. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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It was so much worse then I had imagined...
Topic Locked
