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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Feb 2014 : 21:33:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Well, unfortunately my own stance may back up what Jeremy is saying; I waited to hear from others what it was before purchasing... and I haven't bothered to purchase it.
To be perfectly frank, it didn't sound very useful to me. As for campaign ideas I have all I need (homebrew and old school) - I was looking for something more about the canon Realms, and since the entire thing exists in this 'timeless void' I have no interest in it.
Seriously, how 'canon' is canon that isn't dated? Thats about as vague as it gets. If thats how they are doing 'support for all eras' then I'm already decided.
Anyhow, I don't really recall anyone getting very bent-out-of-shape over it; at this point most of us are just "voting with our wallets". If something isn't what I am looking for, I just won't purchase it. I guess it depends on what side of an argument you are on (at the time) how you remember things (I really do recall mostly positive reviews of the book).
Well Elminster's Realms seemed to be much more of a "way people live" canon book.
I liked it for that.
Indeed. Instead of a book that details what happens to people in the Realms, it's a book about everyday life for non-adventurers. It's a book about living in the Realms, which I think is very valuable for players or DMs. |
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ksu_bond
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
214 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2014 : 21:45:07
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| I held off purchasing the Elminster's Guide until I had read several positive reviews...and now that I have it I'm glad I bought it...and it was what finally prompted me to come back to the Keep (though I'm still not as active as I once was, which still has more to do with the reasons I left the Keep in the first place, many years ago) and to at least make me cautiously optimistic about the direction that the Realms could take in 5e (despite the fact that I'm less than impressed by how Hasbro/WotC is handling this transitionary period)... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2014 : 21:54:58
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Well, like I said, it wasn't any negativity that made me decide to pass on it; I heard only good things, in fact.
It just isn't what I am looking for at this point.
As for the actual thread title, and what the future holds... only time will tell. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Feb 2014 21:55:21 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6680 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2014 : 22:19:47
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I was trawling through some old threads Markustay and you were practically giddy with excitement re this product pre-release. If you can, you should pick it up, It is a lovely lore-heavy, lazy boat ride on the Realmslore lake.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2014 : 04:56:21
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Out of curiosity, for those who bought (or saw it and didn't), what specifically did you find in it that was useful in "Ed Greenwood Presents Elminster's Forgotten Realms"?
Not just nostalgic, but actually useful in a gaming campaign?
I saw this and passed on it because it all just seemed like things I'd seen before. Honestly, it just seemed like little slices of material out of the backlog of old 1E and 2E publications. Even the legal code was just a re-drafting of the old Waterdeep Code Legal.
What is there that's cool (i.e. the drugs, herbs, drinks, food) is all pretty sparse and FAR from complete. It's all just a sampling, with a few little new things thrown in, along with some nostalgic art and artsy design touches.
Honestly, I passed on buying it because WotC used to do the same exact thing with all their 3rd edition hardbacks: twelve pages of new content, spliced here and there, into 120+ pages of old material.
As to people lamenting that it was kinda-sorta advertised as "Ed's Home Realms" rather than the published Realms, I admit I had my hopes up that it could've been that instead. What's interesting is that although WotC never said it was "Ed's Home Realms" exactly, the PR certainly gave that possible impression - and I don't recall anyone, ever, from WotC making an appearance anywhere (not here, not ENWorld, not Paizo boards, not anywhere else) to say, "hey, don't get the wrong impression guys."
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2014 : 06:05:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
Out of curiosity, for those who bought (or saw it and didn't), what specifically did you find in it that was useful in "Ed Greenwood Presents Elminster's Forgotten Realms"?
Not just nostalgic, but actually useful in a gaming campaign?
That's not as easy a question as you might think... becasue everyone looks for different things in a book, and/or for their campaigns. As for myself, I din't really find anything for my campaign, and that's probably becasue I wasn't looking. I didn't buy the book expecting it. I DM in a heavily homebrewed Vilhon Reach so little if anything WotC ever publishes will be directly useful to my game. If they published a book on the pre-plague Vilhon Reach it'd probably just contradict everything I have done.
But since I suppose I mainly game in order to have a shot at cooperative world-building with my friends, there are a lot of things I could say were useful. Like when do people usually seek legal counsel in the Realms and from whom, how do most temples offer their services (not just religious and magical, but also caring for orphans and other solitary people, selling their produce, lending and safeguarding money, offering counsel in all kinds of fields and so on), how do most people regard mercenaries and gauge their reputations, what's medical knowledge like in the Realms and what do common people know (or think they know) about contagion, how smokepowder starts to work its way into the Heartlands in the late 1300s, etc.
Then you have the brand new stuff you mentioned, some collections of lore that were never put in the same place before to my knowledge (such as a good general lexicon ranging various subjects), and some stuff that "smells old" like the deity entries, but even there you can find quite a bit of stuff that never went into the 2e or 3e deity books. I don't find it a copy-paste. The parts that do refer to already printed lore feel more like reading a history book on the same subject, drawing from the same sources, but by a different author - you know the stuff he's talking about, but he gives it a spin that gets you thinking. But then I could say the same about the better 3e supplements that get criticism for copying stuff over (for me many of them actually complement the 2e sources).
I wouldn't say the art is nostalgic, either. Not nostalgic in the sense that it resembles traditional fantasy, anyway. It feels more like contemporary stuff depicting Renaissance Earth you might find in games like Europa Universalis or Expeditions: Conquistador. Kind of a faux-watercolour thing? I haven't a clue about art, I just know I like it. I honestly can't stand most art from mainstream RPGs and D&D in the 80s and 90s is one of the worst offenders - I cringe at those covers (and I know it's a matter of taste, many of those artists are considered quite good, I hear). 3e art was mostly, I don't know, practical. It was enough to draw my attention to what they wanted me to see, but not particularly charming or inspiring most of the time. Most of 4e was also cringe-worthy, and honestly I'm not very optimistic in general about 5e, but I'll see.
And it's not just the art. The book isn't very nostalgic at all. It doesn't resemble products from the 80s or 90s, it's almost another "class" of book. It doesn't have much "adventurer bias". You get a book from any edition and it's usually hard to forget there's a game involved. Not so with this book - it does have quite a few game-specific points, but someone who never heard the Realms is a D&D world might not notice it (apart from the fact that this is shown in the first pages, as Ed talks a bit about what the Realms are in an out-of-world fashion). |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2014 : 07:02:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
Honestly, I passed on buying it because WotC used to do the same exact thing with all their 3rd edition hardbacks: twelve pages of new content, spliced here and there, into 120+ pages of old material.
I can appreciate the hesitancy one might feel re: 3E Realms books. Many of them, in order to introduce a place, have to cover ground that sourcebooks from earlier editions have covered.
That said, there's a whole hell of a lot more than "12 pages" of new content in each 3E hardback.
Really, this is another one of those memes floating around Candlekeep that needs to die.
While it's true there are some 3E hardbacks that fit your description (Faiths and Pantheons for example), the majority don't.
And the fact that they don't is because a lot of talented, thoughtful writers sat down to take the places in the Realms that had already seen some coverage and do two things: bring them up to date and add to the extant lore. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1288 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2014 : 08:23:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
Honestly, I passed on buying it because WotC used to do the same exact thing with all their 3rd edition hardbacks: twelve pages of new content, spliced here and there, into 120+ pages of old material.
I can appreciate the hesitancy one might feel re: 3E Realms books. Many of them, in order to introduce a place, have to cover ground that sourcebooks from earlier editions have covered.
That said, there's a whole hell of a lot more than "12 pages" of new content in each 3E hardback.
Really, this is another one of those memes floating around Candlekeep that needs to die.
While it's true there are some 3E hardbacks that fit your description (Faiths and Pantheons for example), the majority don't.
And the fact that they don't is because a lot of talented, thoughtful writers sat down to take the places in the Realms that had already seen some coverage and do two things: bring them up to date and add to the extant lore.
+1 |
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2014 : 14:11:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
Honestly, I passed on buying it because WotC used to do the same exact thing with all their 3rd edition hardbacks: twelve pages of new content, spliced here and there, into 120+ pages of old material.
I can appreciate the hesitancy one might feel re: 3E Realms books. Many of them, in order to introduce a place, have to cover ground that sourcebooks from earlier editions have covered.
That said, there's a whole hell of a lot more than "12 pages" of new content in each 3E hardback.
Really, this is another one of those memes floating around Candlekeep that needs to die.
While it's true there are some 3E hardbacks that fit your description (Faiths and Pantheons for example), the majority don't.
And the fact that they don't is because a lot of talented, thoughtful writers sat down to take the places in the Realms that had already seen some coverage and do two things: bring them up to date and add to the extant lore.
It's not a meme, it's 100% true. You use the euphemism of "updated material" when in fact there's very little new material in most of the 3E hardbacks. This isn't really an arguable point, it's so well known to be true. It was a common complaint of customers.
I own those hardbacks, I've read them thoroughly, I know it's true.
Are you a shill for WotC? I've never seen anyone so earnestly defend a company with such well-known problems. Will we ever get an honest assessment or critique from you?
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2014 : 14:38:37
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Sounds like the Ed Presents book was sort of a rehash of the Volo Guides - I already own those. ;)
Look, guys, most of this conversation has passed me by, but I'll tell you when I got happier about all this: When I remembered none of it matters.
The Forgotten Realms is just an imaginary placed own by a corporation, made as cheaply as possible in order to produce a profit. There is no continuity or care placed on it, they are not even trying to produce art. Ed's only value to Hasbro is his marketing value.
FR isn't a charity. It is not a person. It isn't an abused animal. And you do not love it. You love the escape it might have provided, the friendships enjoying it has brought you, but FR itself doesn't exist, can't love you back, and you don't really love it.
Just let it go. Enjoy the stuff you have that you liked, nothing wrong with that, but do not expend energy, thought, or passion worrying about its future. It has no future, it isn't real. :)
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"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2014 : 14:41:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
That's not as easy a question as you might think... becasue everyone looks for different things in a book, and/or for their campaigns.
I agree, Realms fans in particular aren't always gamers. Some only read novels, some only are gamers, some are a mix. There are also quite a few who used to game or read novels but still like picking up a new Realms product. So it does vary. I suppose mostly I was wondering about what gamers thought of this book - what they felt was campaign-useful - but I'd be interested to know what others felt about its utility, how it was useful in any way.
quote:
But since I suppose I mainly game in order to have a shot at cooperative world-building with my friends, there are a lot of things I could say were useful. Like when do people usually seek legal counsel in the Realms and from whom, how do most temples offer their services (not just religious and magical, but also caring for orphans and other solitary people, selling their produce, lending and safeguarding money, offering counsel in all kinds of fields and so on), how do most people regard mercenaries and gauge their reputations, what's medical knowledge like in the Realms and what do common people know (or think they know) about contagion, how smokepowder starts to work its way into the Heartlands in the late 1300s, etc.
Do you feel that this book accomplished that for you? Was it thorough enough in each of these areas to help you flesh out those topics in your home-brew?
My perception was that I'd seen much of this in earlier Realms products. Not everyone is going to have the older publications, for sure, but even so the material here didn't feel deep enough or have enough breadth for the topics it did cover. I found it sort of interesting, like little incomplete snapshots, but not useful enough to actually own.
quote:
Then you have the brand new stuff you mentioned, some collections of lore that were never put in the same place before to my knowledge (such as a good general lexicon ranging various subjects), and some stuff that "smells old" like the deity entries, but even there you can find quite a bit of stuff that never went into the 2e or 3e deity books. I don't find it a copy-paste. The parts that do refer to already printed lore feel more like reading a history book on the same subject, drawing from the same sources, but by a different author - you know the stuff he's talking about, but he gives it a spin that gets you thinking. But then I could say the same about the better 3e supplements that get criticism for copying stuff over (for me many of them actually complement the 2e sources).
I like your history book analogy. Having studied a lot of real-life history, it's often important to have different books from multiple authors covering the same eras. But for me, I just didn't get that "different voice" feeling which is important in a real historical text. Almost everything we get is Elminster-"ified" (like almost everything else we get). Truthfully I might have found it much more valuable if it had been written as the perspective of a variety of sages other than Elminster.
quote:
I wouldn't say the art is nostalgic, either. Not nostalgic in the sense that it resembles traditional fantasy, anyway. It feels more like contemporary stuff depicting Renaissance Earth you might find in games like Europa Universalis or Expeditions: Conquistador. Kind of a faux-watercolour thing? I haven't a clue about art, I just know I like it. I honestly can't stand most art from mainstream RPGs and D&D in the 80s and 90s is one of the worst offenders - I cringe at those covers (and I know it's a matter of taste, many of those artists are considered quite good, I hear). 3e art was mostly, I don't know, practical. It was enough to draw my attention to what they wanted me to see, but not particularly charming or inspiring most of the time. Most of 4e was also cringe-worthy, and honestly I'm not very optimistic in general about 5e, but I'll see.
The new art, particularly the "current dress" illustrations, were what I liked best about this book - it just wasn't enough. I'd like to see more art like that, from clothing to architecture, which really helps "gel" the feeling of people and places in the Realms.
quote:
And it's not just the art. The book isn't very nostalgic at all. It doesn't resemble products from the 80s or 90s, it's almost another "class" of book. It doesn't have much "adventurer bias". You get a book from any edition and it's usually hard to forget there's a game involved. Not so with this book - it does have quite a few game-specific points, but someone who never heard the Realms is a D&D world might not notice it (apart from the fact that this is shown in the first pages, as Ed talks a bit about what the Realms are in an out-of-world fashion).
When I spoke of it having a "nostalgic" feel to it, I was referring to the bits and pieces (sometimes art, sometimes photos, sometimes "remember this" pieces) that ranged from the 1970s-1990s and were "pasted" throughout the book. Sometimes with bits of (photoshopped-in) scotch tape as an artistic touch. I thought that was clever, because it brought older products and memories to mind.
That part strikes me as sort of a fun idea, which would give older Realms fans a jaunt down memory lane, but it's not really useful in a practical sense for gamers. I'm still not entirely sure who it was written for, or how people would use this book. I totally get that it's meant to be a sampling, but it just strikes me as much more like a collection of snapshots.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2014 : 15:06:16
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quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
Sounds like the Ed Presents book was sort of a rehash of the Volo Guides - I already own those. ;)
Look, guys, most of this conversation has passed me by, but I'll tell you when I got happier about all this: When I remembered none of it matters.
The Forgotten Realms is just an imaginary placed own by a corporation, made as cheaply as possible in order to produce a profit. There is no continuity or care placed on it, they are not even trying to produce art. Ed's only value to Hasbro is his marketing value.
FR isn't a charity. It is not a person. It isn't an abused animal. And you do not love it. You love the escape it might have provided, the friendships enjoying it has brought you, but FR itself doesn't exist, can't love you back, and you don't really love it.
Just let it go. Enjoy the stuff you have that you liked, nothing wrong with that, but do not expend energy, thought, or passion worrying about its future. It has no future, it isn't real. :)
You know, I agree with much of what you're saying here. It's merely a product. What we get out of that product is either personally enjoyable (as any fantasy novel might be) or it's enjoyable with a group.
Ultimately, like any book or TV show, it comes down to the relationships that are formed because of it, whether there's growth or change or common appreciation (or even common complaints).
What's interesting is that "the Realms" never really has been a single entity, exactly the same for everyone. My interpretation of it, the things I focus on in my games and the things I avoid or leave out, make the Realms mine - are often quite different than how others approach, understand, use, and envision their Realms. Sometimes they're radically different in history or added components, but it's still "Realms" in my book. Even people who solely read novels have their own internal view of the Realms that doesn't always match with canon.
Because you're right: it's not real. It's always been about the relationships around it, the real people we interact with, talk about it with, share it with, and play games with. And for the most part, we also enjoy the (distant, yet near) relationships we have with those closest to it: Ed, THO, Salvatore, and so on).
We should all remember that, I think. It's always about the people. So it makes very little sense to troll and attack other fans when we disagree on one point or another. We may disagree about (made up thing #1) or (made up history #42) or (imaginary plot point #2740), but there's always another person at the other end - someone who has found appreciation for some or even a lot of the material you also like, even if you happen to disagree on various topics.
I liked it much better here, and on other forums, when it felt like we had a community that appreciated that. I wish we could get back to that, but honestly it seems like people are often too enamored of their own personal vision such that they can't possibly understand someone else's genuine complaints or concerns. Some people even enjoy being vicious and trollish to others, taking pride in it. What is that, really? Instead of trying to take the perspective of a fellow person, a fellow fan, it's become increasingly "okay" to be incredibly disrespectful of other people, if not outright awful.
The old sense of community and shared appreciation of each other is something I miss FAR more than Unther, Mulhorand, Maztica, or anything else that's changed over time in the make-believe land we know as the Realms.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 01 Mar 2014 15:23:09 |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2014 : 15:25:38
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I'll try to stay off the heat here, but if anything gets through, I apologise in advance - I don't mean to be confrontational.
To answer Eltheron's and GMWestermeyers' questions and points:
1- It's not really about being immediately useful in my game, it's about encouraging me to think about the Realms and giving me fun perspectives to consider.
2- I don't feel it was Elminster-ified, despite the book's title. Contrary to many 2e products, we don't get Elminster's usual banter here.
3- It does have a bit in common with the Volo series, but those were different. They were written in an in-world travellers' chronicle style, this is a distant observer, like a historian talking about a culture he never actually knew. Volo-type content, but 3E style. It's also less biased towards adventurers, as I said.
4- It was nostalgic in that way, yes. Pieces of Ed's original submissions and so on. But that's a tiny bit of the book, really. A good move to elicit a quick smile from some which doesn't compromise anything.
5- And yes, none of it is real, except the people we share this hobby with - us here, and the excitement we get when doing anything Realms-related (even if it's just making up stuff in your mind). The point about telling WotC what we like and what we don't is just so we can see more creative material done by the people whose work we enjoy, in the way we enjoy it. And of course everyone will disagree about the details, but that's life.
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Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 01 Mar 2014 15:29:30 |
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2014 : 15:38:28
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quote:
I can appreciate the hesitancy one might feel re: 3E Realms books. Many of them, in order to introduce a place, have to cover ground that sourcebooks from earlier editions have covered.
That said, there's a whole hell of a lot more than "12 pages" of new content in each 3E hardback.
Really, this is another one of those memes floating around Candlekeep that needs to die.
While it's true there are some 3E hardbacks that fit your description (Faiths and Pantheons for example), the majority don't.
And the fact that they don't is because a lot of talented, thoughtful writers sat down to take the places in the Realms that had already seen some coverage and do two things: bring them up to date and add to the extant lore.
+1. Also, Ed Greenwood presents Elminster's Forgotten Realms is now one of the first books I reach for when designing FR campaigns. It provides useful local color whether that is FR slang, or cool food dishes and drink options to make available at the local tavern. I also make a lot of use of the deities section. If a deity's faith is described there, it is the first resource I read when using the worshipers. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2014 : 15:46:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Tarlyn
Also, Ed Greenwood presents Elminster's Forgotten Realms is now one of the first books I reach for when designing FR campaigns. It provides useful local color whether that is FR slang, or cool food dishes and drink options to make available at the local tavern. I also make a lot of use of the deities section. If a deity's faith is described there, it is the first resource I read when using the worshipers.
I'm genuinely curious, not trying to come across as confrontational in any way when I ask this: do you find it useful because you don't have access to the earlier/older Volo Guides and deity books of 1E-2E?
Or is it that you feel there's genuinely a lot of new material here that enhances (or is better/different) than the older material?
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2014 : 16:17:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
I'll try to stay off the heat here, but if anything gets through, I apologise in advance - I don't mean to be confrontational.
To answer Eltheron's and GMWestermeyers' questions and points:
1- It's not really about being immediately useful in my game, it's about encouraging me to think about the Realms and giving me fun perspectives to consider.
2- I don't feel it was Elminster-ified, despite the book's title. Contrary to many 2e products, we don't get Elminster's usual banter here.
3- It does have a bit in common with the Volo series, but those were different. They were written in an in-world travellers' chronicle style, this is a distant observer, like a historian talking about a culture he never actually knew. Volo-type content, but 3E style. It's also less biased towards adventurers, as I said.
4- It was nostalgic in that way, yes. Pieces of Ed's original submissions and so on. But that's a tiny bit of the book, really. A good move to elicit a quick smile from some which doesn't compromise anything.
Interesting, and I think fair points. Much of this particular book may come down to individual taste and personal perception, and that's valid. Appeal is often very hard to quantify.
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5- And yes, none of it is real, except the people we share this hobby with - us here, and the excitement we get when doing anything Realms-related (even if it's just making up stuff in your mind). The point about telling WotC what we like and what we don't is just so we can see more creative material done by the people whose work we enjoy, in the way we enjoy it. And of course everyone will disagree about the details, but that's life.
Agreed! In many ways, it's the differences we share that eventually translate into a wider diversity in Realms products.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2014 : 16:42:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
Agreed! In many ways, it's the differences we share that eventually translate into a wider diversity in Realms products.
Good point. If the Realms were exactly as I wanted them to be, they would be limited to my vision, and way, way poorer than what can be achieved by pooling the ideas of countless people. And yes, the fans' preferences do matter to the canon setting, even - be it because someone from WotC is watching these boards or just because by voting with our wallets we drive the Realms to more diverse paths. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 01 Mar 2014 16:43:29 |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1288 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2014 : 19:20:20
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Originally posted by Eltheron
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Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
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Originally posted by Eltheron
Honestly, I passed on buying it because WotC used to do the same exact thing with all their 3rd edition hardbacks: twelve pages of new content, spliced here and there, into 120+ pages of old material.
I can appreciate the hesitancy one might feel re: 3E Realms books. Many of them, in order to introduce a place, have to cover ground that sourcebooks from earlier editions have covered.
That said, there's a whole hell of a lot more than "12 pages" of new content in each 3E hardback.
Really, this is another one of those memes floating around Candlekeep that needs to die.
While it's true there are some 3E hardbacks that fit your description (Faiths and Pantheons for example), the majority don't.
And the fact that they don't is because a lot of talented, thoughtful writers sat down to take the places in the Realms that had already seen some coverage and do two things: bring them up to date and add to the extant lore.
It's not a meme, it's 100% true. You use the euphemism of "updated material" when in fact there's very little new material in most of the 3E hardbacks. This isn't really an arguable point, it's so well known to be true. It was a common complaint of customers.
I own those hardbacks, I've read them thoroughly, I know it's true.
Are you a shill for WotC? I've never seen anyone so earnestly defend a company with such well-known problems. Will we ever get an honest assessment or critique from you?
The same thing heppened in second edition except they were often not as covert about it.
Go get a copy of THE NORTH box set. Now get Volo's Guide to the North. Passages from THE NORTH Box set are copied VERBATIM from the Volo's guide.
If they are releasing the 3rd edition material and want to keep the lore (Which they did NOT do with 4e mind you) then they will have to rewrite or rephrase. It is important that the lore was preserved. There was nothing wrong with what WOTC did with the 3rd edition campaign guide. Concise history, and then lore added.
It was a good move on thier part.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1288 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2014 : 19:24:04
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Originally posted by Eltheron
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Originally posted by Tarlyn
Also, Ed Greenwood presents Elminster's Forgotten Realms is now one of the first books I reach for when designing FR campaigns. It provides useful local color whether that is FR slang, or cool food dishes and drink options to make available at the local tavern. I also make a lot of use of the deities section. If a deity's faith is described there, it is the first resource I read when using the worshipers.
I'm genuinely curious, not trying to come across as confrontational in any way when I ask this: do you find it useful because you don't have access to the earlier/older Volo Guides and deity books of 1E-2E?
Or is it that you feel there's genuinely a lot of new material here that enhances (or is better/different) than the older material?
I ahve jsut about all the 1st edition and 2nd edition guides and boxes. I still feel Elminster's Realm was very useful.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2014 : 19:39:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
The same thing heppened in second edition except they were often not as covert about it.
Go get a copy of THE NORTH box set. Now get Volo's Guide to the North. Passages from THE NORTH Box set are copied VERBATIM from the Volo's guide.
Short passages, sure. But in 3rd edition it's entire swaths of material that were copied, clipped here and there, re-formatted, and then presented as if it all were brand new.
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It was a good move on thier part.
Not for me. I don't like paying twice for something that is mostly re-drafted or re-purposed material.
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I ahve jsut about all the 1st edition and 2nd edition guides and boxes. I still feel Elminster's Realm was very useful.
In what ways have you used it (just the new book)?
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2014 : 20:16:14
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Why do I always feel guilty when a thread starts to go downhill? 
Just because I think a book that has gotten 'high praise' by most folks isn't "something I am looking for at this time", doesn't mean its bad or not useful, I just don't have the extra resources to splurge on something I may not find immediately useful in running a game.
Bear in mind I am on a fixed income these days (retirement isn't nearly as fun as I thought it would be), so that weighs heavily upon my purchasing decisions.
And YES, I was one of those folks really hoping it was going to be a 'sneak peak' into Ed's home Realms, but that played a very minor part in my decision, if at all.
I want the Forgotten Realms to be great again - to take its place 'in the sun' where it belongs. I 'like' Golarion (Paizo/PF), but 'like' is a far cry from the love I felt (note the past tense) for The Realms. I want to fall in love again, and right now there is nothing out there that makes me feel the way the Realms used to. Lots of good stuff, but nothing truly great.
I want that "WOW" moment when I crack a campaign guide... and I am hoping that the 4eFR setting does that for me. If not, I am not going to cry about it; I will simply move on. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2014 : 21:35:51
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No need to apologize to me. Had the book come out back when I still ran my construction company, I would have surely bought it, if for no other reason then for completeness-sake. I didn't have to make any sort of considerations back then.
I just wanted everyone to know I have nothing against what is most-assuredly a very good read.
As for the 'edition wars' thing: I love Ancient Rome. I am a fiend for stuff about it. I buy books on it, and watch every TV special I can on History channel. I just love everything about it - that is my RW Forgotten Realms. Then there is Renaissance Italy, which is very interesting in-and-of itself, but not my cup of tea. It just doesn't 'do it for me'. Sure, it might have a some stuff in common with Ancient Rome - the geography, of course, and the artistic leanings... but its NOT the same setting. That is my idea of the 4e Realms. It may be 'the same place', but its not the same in any other way - all the people, politics, and tech (magic) are different. It may be interesting in its own right, but it is NOT what I am a huge fan of.
Now lets apply that comparison further, shall we? What if someone bought me a book on pre-industrial, Victorian-era Italy. Hmmmm... that's actually a subject I know nothing at all about. I might like it, I might hate it, but I have nothing to go by. That's my 5e Realms right there - its not at all based on 1e/2e/3e, its based directly on 4e - a period of time that may be interesting, but not something I, personally am interested in. Just as 4e has its fans, so to (I would think) does 'Victorian Italy' (or whatever else you'd want to name that period - 'Age of Exploration', maybe?)
So I may like 5e, or I may not - I can't tell yet. I know I didn't care for 4e, no matter how interesting it may have been, and part of that is because I feel it replaced what I did like (old FR, or in the analogy, The Roman Empire was replaced with the Holy Roman Empire, which may share a name and some geography, but was a completely different time and setting).
So if I said that on some Italian fansite (is there such a thing?), I am sure there would be people screaming at me that I am not "a true fan of Rome!" The idea that I have to love every time period in order to be a fan of something is just... ludicrous.
And thats where I am at with 5th edition Forgotten Realms and D&Dnext. Its a blank slate, but its close relationship to the previous 'era' does it no favors, in my mind. To me, in order for it to bring back that flavor I loved, it would be like the Ancient Roman senate taking-over Columbus-era Italy... and that's just bizarre. In fact, having 'ancient characters' appear in another time-period would be completely jarring (and IS, BTW). To be honest, that part is just a strike against it - how can I have that unbiased opinion, when my face keeps getting rubbed in everything I have lost? And that's where I stand right now - I am hoping for something great, but I can't help feeling its gonna come-off pretty cheesy. We all know none of this is being done because "its a great story", but rather, for purely commercial reasons.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Mar 2014 21:42:51 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2014 : 21:43:53
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...Continued from above (split for brevity)
The story should drive the setting, not the other way around. Right now, 'what sells' is what we are being given, and thats just a fact. They are not going to take chances, or give us anything unexpected, because when they tried that it went very bad. So what is left? The new setting with some 'window dressing' to make it appeal to us grognards? So we are getting 4e - which a lot of us didn't like - with a mixed-bag of prior-edition flavors sprinkled on top (which I already own enough of).
So my problem is, no matter how great 5eFR is - and I wish it all the best of luck - I just don't see myself being a fan. I hope so, but I'm not seeing it. It will never be as deep as the Realms we used to know, because thats not a viable profitability plan for a large corporation. The 4e material - the later, GOOD 4e material, still had a rather 'shallow' ring to it all. It harkened back to the days when you didn't want your D&D players 'picking-at-the-surface' - you just wanted them to have an endless series of encounters with some 'phatt lewts' at the end. I already had that with Greyhawk, and I left GH because I wanted something rich & deep
So, to me, it doesn't make a difference whether they do FR, or GH, or DL, or whatever... because its all going to have that shallow, generic, 'kitchen sink' feel to it. Smaller companies can provide more 'meat', because they don't have the same demands of overhead. We all like Ring Dings (or Devil Dogs, or Twinkies, or whatever your 'poison' is), but we wouldn't use them for our wedding cake - we want something good, we go to the local 'mom & pop' store (bakery) and get something delicious. So if I just want to run a quick adventure, then WotC's offerings are fine, as are Paizo's... but I am never going to get that terrific, panoramic back-story I yearn for.
I don't need another D&D setting; what I want is what I was fan of. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Mar 2014 21:45:42 |
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Mr Dark
Seeker
50 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2014 : 21:56:30
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As far as the copy-pasty-rehashy thing goes; you have to remember there are those that are entirely new to the setting or, like me, did not have access to the 1e or 2e material. So, for those of us who did not have it the material is not rehash. I understand that fresh material is wanted but remember that there is a portion of fans out there that have not been around since 1e.
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Canon stops where the table begins. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2014 : 22:17:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr Dark
As far as the copy-pasty-rehashy thing goes; you have to remember there are those that are entirely new to the setting or, like me, did not have access to the 1e or 2e material. So, for those of us who did not have it the material is not rehash. I understand that fresh material is wanted but remember that there is a portion of fans out there that have not been around since 1e.
Thank you for pointing this out.
It's a point that's pretty obvious, but is often overlooked. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1883 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2014 : 22:48:22
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quote:
As far as the copy-pasty-rehashy thing goes; you have to remember there are those that are entirely new to the setting or, like me, did not have access to the 1e or 2e material. So, for those of us who did not have it the material is not rehash. I understand that fresh material is wanted but remember that there is a portion of fans out there that have not been around since 1e.
You ninja'd me with this point. I was going to say the exact same thing.
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I don't need another D&D setting; what I want is what I was fan of.
THIS and everything Markus said before it.
Sometimes I wonder if I ever even have thoughts of my own.  |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2014 : 00:16:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr Dark
As far as the copy-pasty-rehashy thing goes; you have to remember there are those that are entirely new to the setting or, like me, did not have access to the 1e or 2e material. So, for those of us who did not have it the material is not rehash. I understand that fresh material is wanted but remember that there is a portion of fans out there that have not been around since 1e.
I understand what you're getting at, but unfortunately, this kind of thing detracts from the actual problem. It's also not true at all that 1E and 2E material was "one-shot" in terms of availability.
Most companies periodically re-print things that were popular and well-received. This happens with novels at WotC, and did also happen to some degree with Realms campaign material. In the past, WotC even offered many 1E and 2E PDFs for free through their site. Other things were available through resellers like Paizo, RPGnow, and DnDclassics.
For a period during late 3E and much of 4E, the free PDFs were taken down and even the resellers were prevented from selling old edition PDFs. If you're part of that incoming fanbase, I certainly understand where you're coming from - but again, these were choices by WotC.
The actual point here isn't that some people were left out. Coming in to a fanbase that's been established, this will always happen to one degree or another. Arguing that copy-repaste-rehash is a solution to help those new fans truly misses the actual problem. At best, this method of "updating" any IP is ultimately self-defeating. New fans are best served by making older re-prints available.
Relying on copy-repaste-rehash for decades means that you're essentially asking your customers to constantly pay for the same thing over and over again. It's mainly editing, not fresh creativity. And particularly with the decades of hints we've been teased with - that Ed sent TSR (and WotC) tons and tons of material, they're telling us "sorry, you can't have that awesome unpublished stuff even though it's totally available in our vaults."
They could have given us splatbooks of areas only touched upon. Instead, we got Cormyr and Waterdeep and the Sword Coast over and over and over again. Could they have done a big "annual update" book every year touching on all the new developments in every region? Would people have purchased that? Absolutely! Could they have had big detailed splatbooks on Rashemen, Aglarond, Tethyr, and so on? Absolutely. They chose not to do so, relying on editing together old things with tidbits of new.
How much copy-repaste-rehash are people willing to pay for before they move on to something fresh and new? Ultimately, that's why this strategy is self-defeating for a company (even if it's easy) and frustrating for customers (who crave regions unseen for years).
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 02 Mar 2014 00:21:16 |
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It was so much worse then I had imagined...
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