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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11823 Posts |
 Posted - 21 May 2014 : 00:36:02
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Yeah i got the bits about the copper demon from the book of artefacts. Gives more history about the ivory necklace than about the demon but every little helps. Never heard of Tsharoon though.
I dont know what page Ed's quote is on, although it was dated either the 12th March or the 13th March. However i copied the whole quote into another thread so here it is.
quote:
Tyr (known variously as "Achanatyr," "the Sword of Justice," "Arrtyr Judge Of All," and several other names (including Anachtyr), was indeed in the Jhaamdathi pantheon. And existed before that (so he's been around for at least FIVE thousand years). One small, secretive underground Tyrran cult that has existed down all those centuries (with some beholder worshippers as well as humans, and a sprinkling of elves who cleaved to rigid order) is veneration of Iltyr, the Blind But All-Seeing Eye (a huge weeping black [all pupil, no iris or sclera] eye that floats and flies about, trailing a small prehensile tail, and "speaks" boomingly in the minds of those near to it, discerning rights and intent and making judgements; very popular with individuals who desire a guide in life telling them precisely what the right thing to do is, whenever they seek moral guidance; there are secret worshippers of Iltyr among the nobility of Waterdeep and of Cormyr to this day, so if you ever find a curtained-off alcove in a nobles' mansion with a wall painting inside it that has any image that includes large, staring eyes that confront the viewer [or just one eye], you've found a private family chapel to Iltyr, something that's often explained away as "the only portrait we have of [[this or that illustrious ancestor]], but that very direct stare is disconcerting to everyone, so we keep it hidden away, just for us").
Just to note, this doesn't state that Tyr isn't Tyr... its states that some folks worship some kind of eye being in the name of Iltyr. There appears to be some connection to Tyr... and perhaps there is (could this be a creation of his... some kind of weird avatar... maybe he killed a being known as Iltyr and kept the avatar rather than recycling it, etc...). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11823 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2014 : 00:46:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Ah, okay - I had read that before. It doesn't exactly say he was a beholder-deity, just that he had beholder worshipers. It can still all be woven together ('aspects' and what-not). Thanks for the re-quote. 
Tsharoon was briefly mentioned in Ed's Athalantar article - it existed where the Quoya desert is now. Thus, its 'capital' would have been one of those ruined settlements found therein, and we had played with the idea its name was 'Troos' (tying it to the Copper Demon).
More Musings: This is a combination of stuff discussed between myself and others (including Krash), that I have woven together into my own homebrew lore. Raumathar was originally a nature-loving culture, but during their on-going war with Narfel they slowly became corrupted, as they needed to adapt and borrow 'tech' from their enemy in order to counter them. One thing they did was create suits of armor VERY similar to Helmed Horrors (but made of copper - their druid-based magic and culture shied-away from iron), and this construct worked very much in the same way as a genie lamp: If brought into close contact with a fiendish (and possibly ANY Outsider) entity it would bind the the thing within it, and anyone controlling the suit could control the enity within (and its power). In most cases, this was a very effective strategy to use against the demon-summoners of Narfel (turning their own diabolic troops against them).
However, the Copper demon (being a demon-lord and of demi-god status) was far too powerful to control, and so instead - after capturing him within a suit of copper armor - imprisoned him in Fan-Lag.* When the weave faltered (when Karsus cast his spell), the Demon was able to escape his prison cell, but not the armor. Instead, he took control of the armor and fled from Raumathar (fearing they would be able to re-establish control) down-river into nearby Tsharoon, where he became known as 'the Copper Demon of Troos'. He eventually set-up his own court and ruled the place, driving into into ruination within a few decades. The drying-up of The Endless wastes did not help matters (thats another story, but related to the fall of Imaskar), and in the end Tsharoon lie forgotten in the new desert of Quoya.
After leaving that devastation behind him, he encountered Wo Mai, and thats where the rest of the story begins. He managed to escape the acorn during the ToT, but it is unclear weather he escaped his copper Armor, or if he continues to wear it by choice.
*Fan Lag - this place is almost entirely homebrew. It is a prison-island in the center of the Upper Arundi River (which runs through Quoya) used to house dangerous criminals/enemies during the Narfel-Raumthari war, and was completely abandoned after The Great Conflagration. Picture it being like one of those comic-book prisons where they house 'supers'. There is a mention of a 'ruined city' in The Code of the Harpers sourcebook in that same exact area, and thats actually where I got the idea for the prison-city. According to that source, it was ruled by a vampire-lord in the 2e era. I just named it and gave it a history.
And once again, everything above is 99.9% homebrew, all based on tiny little canon bits some of us have woven together.
Interesting idea. We would have strong disagreements on one piece though. In my viewpoint, the Raumathari FAVORED iron. In fact, the original Old Empires points out that Raumathar was becoming powerful due to its use of iron during its infancy (while Mulhorand and Unther were still focused on copper and brass and bronze). I think the Raumathari worshipped Kossuth and Grumbar (possibly in the name Geb) heavily, and as a result they were very interested in metallurgy. Add to this fact that the fey of the area were affected by cold iron.
This is such a basis to me that I felt that the Raumathari Battlemages were not only weapon wielders but arcane armor wearers as well. I believed this even as far back as second edition. I imagine that their work in metallurgy and armor/weapon crafting eventually LED to their fascination with golems (after all, craft construct requires craft arms and armor). Therefore, the viewpoint that I'm seeing people come forward with that the Raumathari were primarily construct makers and less weapon swingers seems ass backwards to me. To me they were primarily warrior mages, though many of these warrior mages started turning to creating helmed horrors and golems and runic constructs, etc.... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11823 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2014 : 01:18:02
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| Oh, and further on my view of Raumathar... it was probably a male-centered culture during most of its life (remember its life was about 750 years or so). It was probably a somewhat nature oriented society, but with a strong focus on the elements (as they saw them). PERSONALLY, I would have it that they saw the world as divided along 7 elements: earth/crystals, metal, fire, life, wood, wind/storms, and water/ice. This makes for a mix of both eastern elements (earth/metal/fire/wood/water) and western elements (air/earth/fire/water). Many of them also probably viewed the feywild as some kind of "elemental plane of wood infused with life energy". So, the men favored the magics of strong earth, metal, fire, ice, and lightning. The women favored the magic of crystals, life, wood, wind, and water. This led to the women being more druidic and shamanistic, whereas the men were generally more arcane oriented. Some women favored the more warlike magics of the men (in particular ice magic and the darker sides of life magics) and it was their teachings which led to the Durthans. Eventually, the demands of the war with Narfell began weakening the men's hold on power, and it was then that the women began gaining something of a leadership role (more as defenders of hearth and home... think somewhat like shieldmaidens). Thus, when Raumathar fell, it was the women who had stayed behind as protectors who were left to rebuild their society, and probably in the final generations of the empire the women were sick of the sexual inequality and used their influence to reverse the tables on the men. The fact that they had an influx of another society (the Rus) who were less male-centric probably had a big factor there as well. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2014 : 09:58:31
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Just working on my Vilhon Reach area when i noticed a possible reason for the migration of the dark churches from the Vilhon Reach region.
In 717 DR supposedly the emerald enclave was formed as it marched against Turmish, the most powerful nation in the Vilhon Reach area at that time.
It is unlikely the entire war between these two powers took place within one year in the very same year that the emerald enclave formed. Such a campaign was likely to take much longer and would no doubt have been waged against the other powers of the vilhon reach as well who would also be polluting the land.
Now the emerald enclave is composed primarily of priests and druids in service to Silvanus, Eldath, and Mielikki. All gods of nature and peaceful coexistance.
I dont think it would be too much of a step to imagine that these three churches spent several years eradicating the worship of the dark gods from the Vilhon Reach area (and i have a reason for that too since i reckon Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul were behind the military coup and tyranny that ended Jhaamdath). They did this by enforcing their demands upon the nations and city states in the vilhon reach and demanding expulsion of the dark god's churches, as well as demanding they clean up their act and stop polluting nature.
The event in 717 DR was merely the final act that saw victory when the last, most powerful, and most remote nation in the Vilhon Reach area submitted to the rule of the emerald enclave and ordered the expulsion of the churches of the dark gods from their lands.
The timing is pretty close. The emerald enclave would almost certainly be against the gods of tyranny, death, murder, pain, and disease. And it would explain why the worship of the dark gods is still absent from the area because the emerald enclave are still the major force in the Vilhon Reach area and so would not allow them to return.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2014 : 14:59:47
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Found a date of 522 stating that Turmish's troubles with the Emerald Enclave begin on this date.
Now of course the date cannot be true because the emerald enclave did not exist until after 717 DR.
However the church of Silvanus did exist, and the church of eldath (who helped prevent the reoccurence of plague around 100 DR).
I reckon these churches had been attempting to guide the nations and city states of the Vilhon Reach towards peaceful coexistance with each other and nature.
The church of Silvanus establishes its headquarters in the Vilhon Reach in 374 DR (why place it in so remote a place unless the mainland was a land backed by evil churches).
So they spend the next few centuries gathering influence among the communities (by allying themselves with Eldath and other peace/nature powers). The period 400 DR to 500 DR is one of relative quiet (compared to the normal wars that are ongoing in the vilhon reach).
Then in 472 we have the plague in Mussum (Talona's work perhaps). 512 DR the orcs of the Orsraun Mountains attack. Then in 522 DR
it looks like Turmish is logging the Gulthmere forest too much and is warned by the Emerald Enclave to stop (could it be the evil churches suggested logging the Gulthmere forest deliberately to try and remove one of the centres of power of the good churches).
527 DR the kobolds attack (yes i know the drow cause this one but its still another sign of trouble).
614 DR Hlondeth declares independence.
640 DR the shining plains come under attack by sabre tooth tigers (Malar's involvement perhaps)
680 DR Chondathan mercenaries return from the wars in Unther and Chondath again begins to reassert its might.
I reckon the Emerald Enclave had finally had enough by 700 DR and started actively trying to eliminate the churches of the dark gods.
It can't be coincidence that following 717 DR the Emerald Enclave establishes itself in the Chondalwood and Winterwood which means it has a presence in all the major nations of the Vilhon Reach region.
And how cool would it have been if Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul ascended during Tyr's procession of justice in the Vilhon Reach. Imagine it, the Dark Three tried to create themselves a mini empire in Netheril where they could spread tyranny, death, and murder on a massive scale (The Crown of Horns was probably meant to be placed on Karsus' head to control him).
Unfortunately Netheril crashes and burns so the Dark Three move on. They arrive in the Vilhon Reach region around about -300 and set about influencing the military before beginning a coup.
The military leader is firmly under the thumb of Bane and he becomes a hugely successful tyrant, oppressing everyone that doesnt do as he asks. He even begins to crack down on religious worship (eliminating the competition). Death and violent death would be occuring on a massive level during these crackdowns and when Jhaamdath finally gets obliterated by the tsunami even then Myrkul and Bhaal are happy.
Then Tyr turns up and tries to root out the evil in the area and has to fight off the Dark Three themselves. It says Ilmater is drawn to Tyr because of the sacrifices he had to make. What it Tyr had to sacrifice his entire procession just to beat back the Dark Three (after all they are awesomly powerful). And to top it all off, during this epic battle the Dark Three (and Tyr) ascend to godhood. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2017 : 19:39:57
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*Bump*
So much great info gets lost, because it winds up in unrelated threads. I was looking for everything and anything on 'Druaga' and came across this stuff. But I bumped it for a different reason altogether...
My musings on Raumathar's druid-like leanings all come from the one and only novel we have covering the place - Frostfell. At the beginning of the war, they were very much into 'nature magic' (and since they are an Imaskari survivor-state, and Imaskar had some 'fey dealings', that makes perfect sense). Later, during the war, they were adopting technology and magic from everywhere, to "win at all costs", and even made the mistake of putting one of the enemy's expatriate generals in charge of their own forces (which is when Raumathar started using fiends as well). I think it was then that that Demonbinder (I no longer have that book so I can't look up his name) started corrupting the Raumathari, and they wound-up as bad as their enemies, in the end.
Where does it say that Raumathar used Iron while the Old empires still used copper (and since FR never actually had a 'bronze age' thats just weird)? Regardless, its still reconcilable - they may have started out use their druidic magics, and then turned to iron when they began to turn to fiendish and 'Meka' techs. Binding magics fit-in with fey very well, and I would think that it was the druids who first began binding the enemies' fiendish servitors into their suits (which is why they would have used copper, because the magic would ave been ancient Fey magic). The suits would have been made by artisans, and the iron would have been reserved for other, more common weapons (Copper is MUCH more common in the Hordelands than iron, so they would have been frugal with it).
In fact, extrapolating outward - IF that entire region was the home-base for the fey (as I suspect it was), that could easily be connected to the lack of iron in the region (Fey would love a place like that), AND be connected to why the Old Empires didn't rely too much on iron - Imaskar would not have had in plenty, and they are Imaskari survivor states as well. I've just looked it up - all those ranges in the Hordelands have tin and copper - no mention of iron. And yet, strangely enough, there is a single mounatin made entirely of it way up to the north of that region (someone removed it all and dumped it there?) What if Raumathar found iron in one of the eastern Faerūnian ranges instead (like the Sunrise or Icerim Mnts.)? That would have given them that 'leg-up' on the Old Empires, me thinks. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Feb 2017 19:41:53 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2017 : 21:29:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
*Bump*
Where does it say that Raumathar used Iron while the Old empires still used copper (and since FR never actually had a 'bronze age' thats just weird)?
History intro - FR10 Old Empires.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11823 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2017 : 22:30:56
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Along those lines the use of iron may have been picked up by Raumathar as a result of Narfell summoning demons (it should be noted it says iron, not steel). Granted, that would be a 3e answer for a 1e note, but...
Oh,and gotta agree... we get off subject a lot of times and get into some really good stuff that way. I think I'm a chief instigator of that at times (as seen in the above I guess). I got bad habits of just talking about whatever I want. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2018 : 18:03:59
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I think it's interesting to speculate about Druaga, because not only did Ed base Bane on that 'deity', but he's also listed as a Babylonian/Untheric god in D&D.
Of course, there is no Babylonian god named Druaga in real mythology. The supposedly 'Babylonian' deity was more or less invented whole cloth for the 1980 Deities and Demigod book. The 1984 computer game 'The Tower of Druaga', where he's indeed portrayed as a Babylonian demon king, is probably the closest Druaga gets to actual Mesopotamian mythology.
And, yes, I've heard the argument that the Babylonian Druaga is allegedly based on the Zoroastrian concept of Druj. To that, entirely aside from the fact that the specifics of Druaga in Deities and Demigods are still entirely made-up, I say that Indo-Iranian mythology is not Semitic mythology and Persia is not Babylon.
This means that I'd be very much in agreement of explaining Druaga in the Realms by linking him to an older culture than the Mulan, with the batrachi being something I'd personally favour. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2018 : 18:13:38
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To me, Stallac Benadi sounds very much like a Chondathan name. Compare it to names in the Scions of Arrabar trilogy, for example.
That does not mean Stallac Benadi himself was from Chondath, of course, but it does provide a rationale to link him to one of the many colonies Chondath most have had in the 8th century DR. Sembia was at the time a Chondathan colony and Chondathans were trading with and settling many locations in the Heartlands, North and around the Moonsea.
It's very plausible that the emigration of mercenaries from the Vilhon Reach to the Moonsea had started around this time. It's canon, if not widely mentioned, that a significant part of the surplus military population of the Moonsea city-states has always been composed of mercenaries from the Vilhon Reach, who travel there for long contracts (and probably marry and mate, in the simple ways of soldiers, while they are there, leaving behind children even if they themselves might not always settle permanently). |
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Edited by - Icelander on 09 Aug 2018 18:42:14 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2018 : 19:11:48
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what difference three or four years makes, back then I was still thinking of gods as humanoid beings with humanoid feelings and motivations, and with a direct interaction and influence on the world.
I agree Stellac Benadi is likely Chondathan, that however means he could have come from the Vilhon Region, the Dragon Coast, Sembia, the Lake of Steam, even Chessenta. I'm pretty sure I read that he went north to the Moonsea to establish an outpost there so I'm veering towards him coming from Vilhon, Chessenta.
It looks like the Dark Churches moved east from the Vilhon around 700 DR and I suspect that is because there was already a following in Chessenta. I have already pegged migration into Chessenta from the Vilhon because of the plagues and the tsunami so there would have been a majority Chondathan population in eastern Chessenta (fuelling the feuding nature of the region in future years), and the potential for warfare leading up to 900 DR (when Tchazzar united Chessenta) means that there may have been enclaves of Chondathans and Banite worship throughout Chessenta.
I have decided on making Mount Thulbane a focal point for Banites and Assurites following battles there around 700 DR, this led to the churches of both religions becoming prominent in Threskel in the following centuries. But all this is homebrew development to fill in the blanks in Chessenta's history. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2018 : 19:46:17
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Does anyone know where the Old Church of Bane or the True Church of Bane were centered?
Or who claimed leadership of these factions?
I would think that the Black Lord's Cloak in Mourktar would have been the center of at least one of the recorded schisms in the Banite church, given their apparent independence from the Orthodox Church. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2018 : 20:10:45
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I don't, personally, see any reason to doubt the parentage of Iyachtu Xvim. Ed Greenwood states baldly in Polyhedron #71 that Iyachtu Xvim "the Godson" is the son of Bane and that he has for long years travelled the Realms enacting his father's will.
The way I see deities who achieve godhood from mortal origins is that they often take a long time (if they ever manage it) to learn to divest themselves of their mortal trappings. Giving into lust, siring offspring and even trying to build a dynasty by employing their children as their lieutenants seems entirely in character for deities whose personalities were formed during their mortal lives.
Of course, over time they learn why gods can't think like mortals, but given that mortals have lived for millennia before without progressing past some very basic psychological drives, I don't have any trouble believing that in his first millennia of divine life, Bane occasionally indulged in the kind of shenanigans that a mortal tyrant might pursue. |
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Gary Dallison
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2018 : 21:19:58
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We know that Myrkul was in life Myrkul Bey al-Kursi, Crown Prince of Murghōm.
I find it credible that Bhaal might in life have come from somewhere near Semphar, given that he's known under a native name in Guge and that the Old Man of the Mountain ruled over a powerful centre of his faith in the Endless Wastes. Still, that's not conclusive evidence and certainly the concentration of Bhaalspawn on the Sword Coast suggests a link to there, perhaps to Calimshaan.
I've found numerous references to Bane having been born on another Prime Material Plane than Toril, so I would favour him being a tiefling or cambion born elsewhere. I can certainly see him arriving on Toril in connection to Narfell, however, though I should want to retain the link with Thurgabanteth in Chondath provided by the Swords of the Iron Legion. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 09 Aug 2018 21:21:05 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2018 : 22:58:25
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Well George already penned Bhaal's origin as an arcanist of netheril.
Regarding Bane I can't recall ever reading a quote that says he was from another plane (apart from 4e, which often discounts FR lore so I often discount 4e lore).
I've read in many places Bane is a mortal (extraplanar beings are usually not classified as such). His fathering of a cambion (Iyachtu Xvim with either a greater tanarri or a fallen paladin) means he is likely of fiendish blood). Although Faiths and Pantheons says he was human.
Thurgabanteth is a supposed former mountain in Chondath where Bane first entered Faerun. However it is from a tome (the Black Book of Chondath I think), and there is nothing to say the source is accurate, likely written by a follower of Bane and probably edited by other followers (all earth based holy books have been greatly edited).
Chondath did not exist until way after the fall of Netheril and Bane was present during Netheril's fall so he couldn't have first arrived when Chondath existed.
My idea is that he was related to the royal dynasty of Narfell (not necessarily born on Toril, and maybe not even on the Material Plane). He met Myrkul on his travels and followed him to Netheril where they encountered Bhaal. Together the three began harvesting divine energy from semi-divine beings in a bid to attain godhood. Leaving when Netheril fell.
The Dark Three I think were involved in the events in Jhaamdath. When that empire also fell they travelled again until they ended up confronting Jergal and dividing up his divine power amongst themselves.
At this point the Dark Three part ways. Bane returned to Faerun in Thurgabanteth and set about trying to create his own empire in the Vilhon Reach (which I'm tying to the Goblin Wars in that region). Driven out he moved east and tried draining a few of the godkings of Chessenta to gather more divine power. Ultimately he confronted Assuran atop Mount Thulbane and both vanished.
I don't think it contradicts anything. The appearance and growth of his church is not dependent upon him being a true divine being (him being semi-divine and still wandering the realms but performing awesome feats will still garner worship). His familial origin is from Faerun but he could also have been born and raised on another plane.
If Myrkul and Bhaal are originally from Faerun I thought why not Bane.
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Edited by - Gary Dallison on 09 Aug 2018 23:00:19 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2018 : 00:09:12
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well George already penned Bhaal's origin as an arcanist of netheril.
Oh?!
Where is that to be found?
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Regarding Bane I can't recall ever reading a quote that says he was from another plane (apart from 4e, which often discounts FR lore so I often discount 4e lore).
quote:
Originally posted by Old Empires p. 14
Within this expanse are desert, ruins,
mountains, fertile fields, and cities that
were great 2,000 years before the first
stone was place on Waterdeep, before
the Zhentarim ever unleashed an evil
scheme, before Bane was even aware
that the Realms existed, a time when
the world was young, even to the elves.
The words Mulhorand and "eternity"
are the same in the language of the Mulhorandi.
quote:
Originally posted by Ed Greenwood's Stormlight (Kindle edition, position 477)
She fought closer to the shame and the trembling fear he so hated, that made him seek tyranny over others. This fear tasted like the tang of iron in blood, but came from a place weirdly different than Faerun. The mortal who had become Bane, so long ago, had come from . . . somewhere else, and still had secrets that he was fighting wildly to keep from her, secrets that he would keep hidden at all costs.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I've read in many places Bane is a mortal (extraplanar beings are usually not classified as such). His fathering of a cambion (Iyachtu Xvim with either a greater tanarri or a fallen paladin) means he is likely of fiendish blood). Although Faiths and Pantheons says he was human.
Yes, mortal of fiendsh blood would work for me, as long as there was a time when he was unaware that the Realms existed.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Thurgabanteth is a supposed former mountain in Chondath where Bane first entered Faerun. However it is from a tome (the Black Book of Chondath I think), and there is nothing to say the source is accurate, likely written by a follower of Bane and probably edited by other followers (all earth based holy books have been greatly edited).
Chondath did not exist until way after the fall of Netheril and Bane was present during Netheril's fall so he couldn't have first arrived when Chondath existed.
He arrived within the modern day borders of Chondath, which at the time would have been Jhaamdath.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
My idea is that he was related to the royal dynasty of Narfell (not necessarily born on Toril, and maybe not even on the Material Plane). He met Myrkul on his travels and followed him to Netheril where they encountered Bhaal. Together the three began harvesting divine energy from semi-divine beings in a bid to attain godhood. Leaving when Netheril fell.
The Dark Three I think were involved in the events in Jhaamdath. When that empire also fell they travelled again until they ended up confronting Jergal and dividing up his divine power amongst themselves.
At this point the Dark Three part ways. Bane returned to Faerun in Thurgabanteth and set about trying to create his own empire in the Vilhon Reach (which I'm tying to the Goblin Wars in that region). Driven out he moved east and tried draining a few of the godkings of Chessenta to gather more divine power. Ultimately he confronted Assuran atop Mount Thulbane and both vanished.
I don't think it contradicts anything. The appearance and growth of his church is not dependent upon him being a true divine being (him being semi-divine and still wandering the realms but performing awesome feats will still garner worship). His familial origin is from Faerun but he could also have been born and raised on another plane.
Sounds about right.
Though I do note that Assuran/Hoar and Bane do not seem to have had an antagonistic relationship in any source of which I'm aware and that it was clearly Ramman who drove Assuran from Unther.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
If Myrkul and Bhaal are originally from Faerun I thought why not Bane.
Well, merely because Bane was established in old FR lore as having come from elsewhere. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 10 Aug 2018 01:33:53 |
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Gary Dallison
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Icelander
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Posted - 10 Aug 2018 : 12:25:14
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Where can I find a mention of Bhaal's origins as an arcanist of Netheril?
Given the etymological similarities of his name to the Semitic title Ba'al ('Lord'), I have always imagined him as coming from a place in the Realms where they speak a Semitic language or somewhere influenced by such languages. That means anywhere that was once a colony of Unther (Westgate, Wizard Reach, Shaar, etc.) or anywhere they speak Midani or a related language (Zakhara, Calimshan, former Shoon colonies, Solon, Murghom, Semphar, etc.).
In addition, the fact that (almost alone of Faerunian deities), Bhaal was not only known in Guge and the Endless Wastes, but worshipped in ancient and powerful institutions, argued for a strong connection with the area.
In fact, the lands of former Netheril were among the parts of Faerun where it had never occured to me to consider Bhaal originating from. I mean, all the Dark Three travelled there shortly before they achieved godhood, but I was unaware of any other connection.
The Bhaalspawn provide a connection of some sort with the middle area of the Sword Coast, all of which was culturally influenced by Midani-speaking Shoon. Something made Bhaal select that area for his bid at rebirth and while this something could have been connected to events that occured while he was a god, it could also relate to his mortal life.
By the same token, the assassin order on the Endless Waste, led by the Old Man of the Mountain, seems in The Horde to be truly ancient and highly important to the deity. As in, if I had to pick the holiest slayers of Bhaal on Toril, that would have been my guess. |
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Gary Dallison
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Icelander
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Posted - 11 Aug 2018 : 00:32:20
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
George Krashos mentioned Bhaals origin in his Jergal article Lord of the End of Everything. It's not canon but modern canon isn't worth a p**s and I take George's work as gospel over anyone (except other FR greats).
Where can I read this article?
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
As for naming similarities and presence elsewhere. People can travel to other planes and take worship with them. I tend to view far off enclaves of a religion as a mistake by the narrator, he visited the area and found a sect of assassins who venerated a murder deity and assumed it was Bhaal.
I also have my own theory where the multiverses is operating to a plan (like hitchikers guide to the galaxy) so each sphere keeps trying to reach the same endpoint in different ways and keeps creating the same elements of existence. So a being called Bhaal (or some variation of that name) keeps getting created through chance as the sphere tried to stick to a plan that has long since corrupted. These Bhaal can be spread over many millennia and thousands of miles and are all fairly similar but unique in their own way.
It's why there are several Banes and why he keeps returning after death, it's why there are Tyrs all over the multiverses (There were 5 on Faerun). It's not the same god all over the planets and planes, it's different gods that arise to fulfil the same purpose through a design in existence.
The millennia and a half that Bhaal has been worshipped in Faerun has certainly provided enough time for his faith to spread to many cultures. It's just that in searching for the origin of a language or a mytheme (in historical linguistics known as the Urheimat), you search for a geographic area around which the greatest wealth of variations of that language or mytheme exist.
Hence, the theocracy of priests of Bhaal in the truly ancient realm of Guge and the Fortress of the Old Man in Sentinelspire are interesting finds that lead me to consider an ancient connection to the area for Bhaal. And the fact that Bhaal is known by different names in the area (e.g. Niynjushigampo in Guge, which I'd want to translate as 'Lord of Murder' in their language) supports an ancient native origin over a recently imported one.
Note also that Alaodin, the Old Man of the Mountain, was not just assumed by some Faerunian to be a worshipper of Bhaal. He was stated by the omniscient narrator to be a priest of Bhaal, in a place where Bhaal had been worshipped by a secret order of assassins for a very long time, and the text of The Horde specifically mentioned the effects on his temple and order of holy slayers of Bhaal's death in the Time of Troubles.
Add to that Bhaal's strong following in Thay and one might be excused for imagining an origin somewhere between Thay, the Sentinelspire and Guge, i.e. an area centering on the lands of old Imaskar, specifically on Semphar (just because it's roughly in the center of an imaginary circle drawn there).
I just haven't found anything in other sources that links Bhaal convincingly to other areas of the Realms as well. It's true that he's strongly linked to the Swords Coast and Boareskyr Bridge, but that's because of where he died.
Granted, Tethyr does seem to have strong connections to Bhaal's modern worship, which could suggest Shoon-ite roots or could just be a result of the recent upheaval in the area and the many, many assassinations that have been committed there in the decades leading up to Bhaal's death in the Time of Troubles. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 11 Aug 2018 00:43:27 |
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George Krashos
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Posted - 11 Aug 2018 : 04:16:37
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Keep in mind that when the Faerūnian pantheon coalesced, it incorporated and subsumed many smal, regional pantheons and so a local god of murder is going to be known by its local name even after another deity has taken them over in the deific tumult (outside of mortal understanding) that occurs when this happens.
George Krashos |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
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Posted - 11 Aug 2018 : 05:53:20
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| Old Empires, pg 14 when talking about the Geography of Mulhorand: "Within this expanse are desert, ruins, mountains, fertile fields, and cities that were great 2,000 years before the first stone was placed on Waterdeep, before the Zhentarium ever unleased an evil scheme, before Bane was even aware that the Realms existed, a time when the world was young, even to the elves." That would seem to confirm that Bane is not from The Realms. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
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Posted - 11 Aug 2018 : 06:14:22
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Keep in mind that when the Faerūnian pantheon coalesced, it incorporated and subsumed many smal, regional pantheons and so a local god of murder is going to be known by its local name even after another deity has taken them over in the deific tumult (outside of mortal understanding) that occurs when this happens.
George Krashos
Absolutely.
I'm entirely in favour of regional names for deities and mortals often having difficulty perceiving whether cults worshipping gods by different names are worshipping the same god under these names, different aspects of one deity or different gods entirely.
I'm simply seeking clues to the mortal existence of Bhaal, as we know Myrkul's mortal name and profession. As I noted, I've not noticed any clues in published Realmslore that suggests Bhaal might have been a Netherese arcanist in life. Nor, honestly, does Bhaal strike me as etymologically similar to those Netherese names I've come across in various supplements, whereas it is pronounced exactly like a title that would presumably have been common among the Untheri section of the Mulan.
Ba'al Mutu / Ba'al Mot / Bel Mot / Baal Mawet / Baal Mat / Bhaal Mawt / Bhaal al-Mawt ('Lord Death' or 'Lord of Death') sound to me like plausible linguistic variantions that make appropriate forms of the title for the Lord of Murder in a variety of Untheric-, Rauric-, Alzhedo-, Muhjari- and Midani-speaking areas. Bhaal might then well have been adopted as a shortened form of the deity's title and from there grew into the proper name for the deity in the modern Realms.
There is ample real world precedent for deities coming to be known as 'Lord' or 'the Lord' and losing any unique proper name they might have had, after all, including one who came to be known as Ba'al / Baal ('Lord') in exactly this manner. For mythology nerds, it's also fun to note that Mot ('Death')' the God of Death, slew Ba'al ('the Lord'), a benign god, in an Ugaritic legend.
Bhaal's divine name as member of the Faerunian pantheon being a title with a simple meaning of 'Lord' also seems to fit with the third member of the Dark Three and his name. The inner monologue of Bane's avatar in Stormlight suggests that that deity views his moniker as a title or appelation with the common English meaning of 'Bane', not merely a name that hapens to sound like it. Something like: 'They name me FOE. How apposite.'
The Dark Three as I might venture guesses at them in life:
Bane: A mortal with some kind of fiendish blood from another world than Toril, a powerful warlord. Name as a mortal unknown, but might have been Bane and might not. For that matter, he might even be linked by blood or cosmic synergy to an Outer Planar deity also named Bane, never a mortal and only present in the Realms through the mortal Bane, who achieved godhood there.
Bhaal: A mortal either from Calimshan / Shoon Empire / Tethyr or a post-Imaskari realm like Semphar or Solon, a powerful assassin. In life, might have been regarded as a hero before entering onto his path with the Dark Three.
Myrkul: Myrkul Bey al-Kursi, the Crown Prince of Murghom, a powerful necromancer. |
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Gary Dallison
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Icelander
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Posted - 14 Aug 2018 : 16:22:03
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I noted that in the Forgotten Realms Adventures book, the ceremonial knives that Bhaal's priesthood carry were specifically noted as being of an 'Eastern' design.
This lends some support to the idea that the people of the Heartlands of Faerun might view the faith of Bhaal as having some ancestral connection to eastern lands. |
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cpthero2
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Posted - 07 Oct 2018 : 18:45:53
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Great Reader dazzlerdal,
Well, I can say for sure that Myrkul was a prince from Murghom. Not really all that close, but it is in the Sea of Fallen Stars region.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I found this quote in code of the harpers which may help narrow down where Bane's church originate
quote:
The lands around the Inner Sea (particularly the Vilhon Reach) have always been fertile and over-populated, sending forth periodic waves of explorers seeking their fortunes elsewhere in the
Realms, as things become too crowded.
Unlike the orcs, who do the same thing in the North, sweeping south in vast raiding hordes whenever overcrowding makes them restless (usually about once a decade), these men came to settle. With them they brought all the concerns and doings of men in the Old Empires#151; including the cruel faiths of evil gods, often driven out of their warmer homelands by their fearful neighbors. These included those who worshipped Bane, Bhaal, Loviatar, and Myrkul, and these decadent faiths joined the followers of Malar, the Lord of the Hunt, in the ranks of #147;priesthoods that are violent#148; in the North.
Now this was mentioned in a section about the founding of the Harpers and what happened to them after the fall of Myth Drannor.
So we have a likely possibility that Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul's priesthood originated in the lands around the Sea of Fallen Stars possibly centred on the Vilhon Reach.
So maybe Bane's church did originate in Mourktar which may not be in the Vilhon Reach but is on the Sea of Fallen Stars.
And maybe Stellac Benadi was Imperceptor of that church in Mourktar before being named High Imperceptor by Bane and travelling to Flostren's Hold to establish an subterranean empire to Bane.
Anyway just thought i would share
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Higher Atlar
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Gary Dallison
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Church of the Dark Three
