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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 01 Mar 2014 : 12:55:21

Well I'm pretty sure my assumption is correct. Stellac was the 7th and we know he was a banelich so if it says Tomar was the 8th then the assumption is more likely that he was a banelich than he was gifted something else.

Plus Bane strikes me as horrifically arrogant and so he would consider gifting a part of himself to someone the greatest gift of all (even if that person was not necessarily willing).

Plus I like the idea that other organisations discovered the secret of creating Baneliches and did so consciously to weaken Bane.

I get a vague recollection that most or all of the Baneliches were destroyed by Fzoul and Xvim and that may have contributed to Bane being reborn from Xvim, and might explain his sudden jump in power from lesser back to greater.

If so then Algashon is probably one of the few if not the only Banelich around as of 1373/4.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 02 Mar 2014 : 12:45:18

Another thought. Bane's church in sembia, the western heartlands, and the north was once strong.
Particularly Sembia where the cult of the dragon was and is strong.
In fact it was so strong that the church if bane publicly tortured and executed a harper agent in sembia.

So what happened to that strength. Yes they are tolerated in sembia but i've not encountered many details about banite churches in sembia (ive looked)
Now it could be the conflict with the Harper's that caused the decline (although I believe bane kind of won because the harpers went underground again.
My thinking is that augloroasa may have caused the sembian civil war to eliminate cult of the dragon operatives and the influence of bane in both the cult and sembia.
I will have to revisit my notes on sembia in light of this info from the cult of the dragon sourcebook as it looks like both bane and the cult were major players in early sembian politics especially given algashons doctrine of supporting tyrants rather than being the tyrant

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 05 Mar 2014 : 13:27:56

Just found this quote in an old adventure "Swords of the Iron Legion".

Looks like Bane first arrived in the Vilhon Reach.

quote:
Upon his discovery of the Realms, Bane held a great feast of blood, in celebration of the bloodletting to come. His talons were red and dripping with venom as he descended for the first time into the new lands, and he placed his iron foot, which burned with pillaging fire, on Burgateth, highest mountain of Chondath. And he crushed it, and burned it, so that afternards it was but a lifeless hill of black glass, burning crystal

Now i reckon the bit about his foot crushing the mountain is probably artistic licence. More likely the portal he opened from whatever plane he originated burned the mountains and devoured a portion of it (like from the film stargate when it opens and atomises anything in its path).

If that is where is journey in Toril started it is kind of fitting that this is where his journey to godhood ends and where his church is strongest.

Mirtek
Senior Scribe

595 Posts

Posted - 10 Mar 2014 : 23:02:38

quote:
Originally posted by MarkustayAnyhow, this all means that deities DO indeed need their followers for power (and always have - more on THAT later), but they can exist for a short time without them... so long as they are careful.

However "short" from a divine perspective can be very long from a mortal point of view.

IIRC there was even a post by Ed how it could take centuries for a deity without worshippers to starve away through the divine stratas until it's finally seemingly gone from the cosmos. And even then it might only be one desperate soul stumpling upon it's name in some dusty tome away from returning.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2014 : 08:34:28

Well i'm glad i'm on the same thought track as Ed then.

I will be changing it for my realms however and have the time taken for them to dwindle dependent on the power level of the being before they attained godhood.

So Bane for instance had nicked the power of at least 7 primordial beings so it would take ages for him to dwindle.

Finder however seems to have been a mortal (powerful mortal maybe but still a mortal) who killed Moander and so has no reserves to fall back on should his worship dwindle. So once Finder loses his last worshipper he is gone in an instant.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 31 Mar 2014 : 16:40:45

Found a curious statement in the timeline section of Cloak and Dagger.

quote:
Hidden baneliches in Hillsfar, Phlan, Tantra, Yhaunn, Tulbeg, and Marsember explode as their power is ripped from them.
The most spectacular effect centres on ruined Myth Drannor, as greenish flames erupt from numerous lost Banite relics. The mythal there mysteriously shapes them into the flaming form of a great dragon before it melds with the contracting firestorm. The Tyrantfire closes in to flash across the northern ruins of Zhentil Keep, blasting to ash any hidden Cyricists beneath and among the ruin or hiding out in the southern city.

So we have baneliches and therefore possible old remnants of bane's church in Yhaunn in Sembia (where i found quotes in the code of the Harpers to indicate Bane's church was strong previously). Marsember is an interesting place as that is now part of Cormyr but previously wasnt so and would have undoubtedly been cleansed of Bane's influence once conquered.

Those Baneliches in the Moonsea probably spread out to different settlements as instructed by Bane.

Anyone know where Tulbeg is off the top of their heads?

The fog forming into a dragon is somewhat interesting, could that mean one of the baneliches was actually a dragon. I see no reason why Bane would only create human baneliches, other than the fact that many of his followers are human, but if a dragon were to become a devout servant of bane then why not a dragon banelich.

And finally the last sentence about the fog settling on Zhentil Keep indicates the death of Stellac Benadi and that Cyric burning bones creature fighting him beneath the streets.

Reading Cloak and Dagger has given some insight into the sudden change of heart by Fzoul. It states that his sudden interest in becoming "The Tyrant" is as a result of numerous visions shown to him by Xvim during the various times he possessed Fzoul.

Whereas previously under Bane, Fzoul was content to support Manshoon who was the tyrant because he thought thats what pleased Bane (and indeed i believe that is what pleased Bane).

As of 3rd edition and the return of Bane, the church of Bane did not return to it's previous stance of supporting tyrannical rulers. Instead it maintained the Xvim status quo of being "The Tyrants". That coupled with Bane's symbol change to incorporate the green of Xvim makes me think that either Xvim didnt die and is just pretending to be Bane, or that the power of the baneliches merged with Xvim to create a new being that is a mixture of the two.

xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1853 Posts

Posted - 31 Mar 2014 : 18:24:49

Tulbegh is a small Sembian community on the coast south of Yhaunn. It's on the paper FR atlas maps.

Interesting idea about Bane still being partially or completely Xvim. It makes sense that Xvim would (probably after being talked into it by a series of priests, whom he first incinerated for their audacity but eventually started listening to) use Bane's image and tone, etc, to give himself additional legitimacy.

The church of Bane supporting tyrants, rather than being the tyrant, seems consistent with his portfolio. If you are the undisputed ruler of a people/place, you don't want strife. And if there's just one authority figure, tearing him down is just a coup; simple and unfilling. It's only where a ruler already exists, with a set of nobles and guilds vying for power and a set of middle-classers trying to become rich and powerful, where strife really shines.

Power corrupts... the more you have, the more you crave. Where a handful jockey for power, soon there will be dozens, and hundreds soon after that. With all these people trying to advance themselves at everyone else's expense, intrigue proliferates... and that gives limitless power to the unseen puppeteers.

Xvim lacks the patience and the farsightedness for that, though. I think that prevents him from ever being a truly great power. Xvim is unsatisfied with anything less than complete success. However, the more he succeeds, the more competition he eliminates and the smaller his power base becomes... so he's only a power as long as he doesn't win. Bane's might, in contrast, comes from the struggle... not his struggle, but the struggle of everyone who tries to win. Everyone who ever bends the rules or engages in deceit or sabotage, in the blind pursuit of power. Which is to say... pretty much everyone.

And it's possible that Xvim sees that. He is at least as smart as a mere mortal, after all. Anything that mortals can see, he can see too. But does he have the patience to change his approach, and the discipline to alter his fundamental nature? For my own games I say no, but maybe WotC thinks otherwise. Or maybe my analysis is just completely off.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 31 Mar 2014 : 19:08:57

Well as always this lore was all pre spellplague so now it's all gone and doesn't matter any more (except for me and others who won't move).

I am pretty sure I read somewhere either in Elminster Presents Forgotten Realms or in Ed Greenwood's scroll, but since Fzoul became the head of the Zhentarim the organisation has now become more overtly successful but at the same time it never finishes what it starts.

So Fzoul is determined and driven to succeed (possibly influenced by his multiple possessions by Xvim) and he will do everything to achieve whatever short term goal he has in mind, but once that goal is completed he quickly switches to another project and abandons all thought and effort into the previous drive.

So for example if he wanted to occupy an entire area (like the Moonsea) he sets up his agents and conspiracies so that he controls 90% of the settlements (So in cloak and dagger that is Zhentil Keep, Mulmaster, Phlan, Yulash, Voonlar, Teshwave, etc) but he has trouble with Hillsfar and leaves it because he controls everything else and what can one city do against 10.
However several years down the line that city will prove to be a thorn in his side in the conquest of the dales for instance.

This ties in quite nicely to the new Xvim, he has drive and energy and ambition, but he lacks patience and commitment and a godly attention span.

Also I think Xvim's multiple possessions of Fzoul are doing to Fzoul as Azuth and Mystra have done to Elminster (im sure I read in one of the sourcebooks that there is no knowing how much of Elminster's memories are real after the meddling Azuth and Mystra have done). The multiple possessions and rebuilding and visions and suggestions are erasing the old being known as Fzoul and creating whatever Xvim wants him to be (after he was consumed by the power of Xvim and Bane, Xvim remade him "better" than before). If that is to be the ultimate Tyrant then Xvim had better watch out because sooner or later Fzoul is going to want to be a god.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 08 Apr 2014 : 16:15:07

Come across another slight conundrum in Cloak and Dagger regarding the Imperceptors of Bane and Cyric.

So the Sceptre of the Tyrant's Eye contains a High Imperceptor named Kvol who is noted as being cunning and driven. It states Kvol is the High Imperceptor of Bane.

Now in Uktar of 1369 Fzoul Chembryl, Desmonda and Manxam with a force of beholders attack various holdings in Mulmaster and kill the High Imperceptor of Cyric and capture the High Imperceptor of Bane (breaking his jaw to stop him spellcasting).

The problem is that the last High Imperceptor of Bane i have is listed as Szchulan Darkhoon. He was a weak willed man easily manipulated by those who elevated him to the position. This doesnt sound like Kvol at all.

Even more confusing, in the Moonsea sourcebook (2nd ed) he is listed as being a priest in the temple of Cyric.

So there are a number of possible scenarios here.

1 - Szchulan Darkoon defected to the worship of Cyric and a new High Imperceptor of Bane was chosen (before Xvim escaped) whose name was Kvol.

2 - The blurb for the Sceptre of the Tyrant's Eye was incorrect and they actually used the soul of the High Imperceptor of Cyric to create the sceptre (and Szchulan was killed by Fzoul in the attack in Mulmaster).

3 - Szchulan was High Imperceptor of Bane and captured as stated and the church of Bane elected another High Imperceptor called Kvol who was captured again in Mulmaster and used to create the Sceptre.

4 - Szchulan was also known as Kvol and only pretended to be weak willed (and convincingly acted weak willed during his time as High Imperceptor).

Now im leaning towards option 1 or 2, with preference towards 2. It seems more likely that Fzoul and Xvim would want to imprison the soul of Cyrics leader of the church forever as a permanent snub to the mad god that caused so much trouble to Zhentil Keep. Szchulan Darkoon while he was hated for being a weak patsy didnt really deserve being bound for eternity to Xvim as he wouldnt be much use as a sentient weapon because of his weak willed nature.

Therefore i'm tempted to say there was a slight printing error in Cloak and Dagger and they got Bane and Cyric mixed up.

xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1853 Posts

Posted - 08 Apr 2014 : 18:54:51

As an aside, I admire and appreciate your delvings into various aspects of lore. It's becoming a frequent experience for me to find myself becoming interested in stuff that'd I'd forgotten/ignored, and I like the feeling of being pulled into looking stuff up so it's a good thing to me, and I'm sure to others.

This happens to be one of those topics that I've ignored. My disgust with Cyric and apathy toward Zhentil Keep has led me to ignore most of the official Bane vs Cyric stuff. There's one thing I've noticed, though... or at least I think it's a real thing. The schisms within the churches create more than one hierarchy. So I'm inclined to add a possibility #5 to your list: more than one High Imperceptor existed concurrently, each of course claiming to be in charge but limited by their own personal charisma and the strength of their hierarchy.

Also: if Kvol is in the scepter, it sounds like he's an earlier High Imperceptor. Since there's probably no retiring from that position --it would be expected that the individual would remain in that role until death-- he could therefore retain the title of High Imperceptor even when someone else is promoted to that position.

I completely agree with your reasoning about the desire to imprison a leader of Cyric's church as a snub, and a weak-willed individual being a poor choice. ...I'm forgetting something: which church was Fzoul leading when the Scepter was created? If he was a priest of Xvim at the time, it could still make sense for Kvol to be of Bane. This would represent Xvim taking control of Bane's church in a literal sense.

I'm uninformed on this; I should go read something before talking.

Of course there could have been a printing error, but if so then whoever is responsible shouldn't even feel bad considering that even the churches of Bane and Cyric get mixed up about who they're serving.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 08 Apr 2014 : 19:59:37

Well you are right about the schism and the multiple hierarchies. I reckon there were 3 churches of Bane by the time of the Time of Troubles. The orthodox church of Bane ruled by Szchulan Darkoon in Mulmaster, the unorthodox church of Bane run by Fzoul Chembryl from Zhentil Keep, and the other church which I call the True Church of Bane ruled by Dread Imperceptor Kabarath (or however you spell his name) from Mourktar in Threskel.

However there has only ever been one High Imperceptor of the church of Bane throughout history (its in the Ruins of Zhentil Keep), and the position is for life. But upon the death or undeath of the holder it passes to the next candidate.

Now I think that Bane being the god of Strife he liked a big fight between the most powerful and devout candidates and their temples to see who would become High Imperceptor (although originally way back in 700 DR until about 1000 DR when the church of Bane first created the title and probably began in its current organised state the title was that of Imperceptor and not High Imperceptor).

It looks like all the other High Imperceptors did undergo some kind of struggle for the position which weakened the church of Bane (momentarily) but probably strengthened Bane because of his portfolio. However Szchulan Darkoon was noted as being made High Imperceptor by sponsors that wanted a weak willed patsy to manipulate. This probably displeased Bane and so when the church of Bane began to fragment Bane was happy to let it happen.

And then Bane died.

It seems in character with Szchulan to switch sides to Cyric. It explains why he is priest of the church of cyric in Mulmaster in one of the sourcebooks. But then again if he was looking to hide somewhere as the High priest of Bane then where better to hide than as a priest of Cyric in the very city he supposedly fled.

The problem is that if Szchulan did switch sides to Cyric, how did the church of Bane appoint a new High Imperceptor with their god dead and their worshippers abandoning Bane in favour of Cyric. The main bastion of Banite worship was in Zhentil Keep at the time and Cyric performed several Banedeaths to eliminate the remainders of Bane's church.

Obviously we can't say with 100% certainty that a new High Imperceptor wasn't appointed or that more than one High Imperceptor existed during that time. The period between 1358 and 1369 was one of absolute chaos for the churches of Bane and Cyric and Xvim. But the simplest explanation is author error and the simplest answer is usually the right one.

From a god point of view Cyric is a real pants god and the stuff that happened directly caused by him was a mini RSE (and of similar quality to other RSE's). However the consequences such as the fragmenting of the Zhentarim and the rise of Xvim and his fusion with Bane has many possibilities that are intriguing.

The Zhentarim for instance were set to split along east and west lines until 3rd edition ignored the plot hooks and had Sememmon run away and Darkhold suddenly rejoined with the eastern Zhentarim even though one side was Banite and the other Cyricist.

I reckon the Zhents in Darkhold should have expanded into Dragonspear Castle and then as the war between east and west brewed Sememmon abdicates and Fzoul wins, but not in the way everyone expects by conquering. The Manshoon clone in the Zhentarim creates a Sememmon clone for Darkhold to replace the absent Sememmon and keep everyone in Darkhold in line while playing second fiddle to Fzoul. But of course Manshoon did it to get another ally in the Zhentarim against Fzoul. And in this way Fzoul circumvents Khelben's restrictions on expanding west (which is why he allows it)

The church of Xvim also holds much interest in that it appeared to expand and absorb everything that was previously held by Bane into it's church. Interestingly one of the churches created is in Reth in the Vilhon Reach/Chessenta which is where Bane's church is supposed to have originated.

Then the apparent personality change of Fzoul and Bane (when he reappears) pose other interesting questions as to whether Bane actually did return or Bane is now a Xvim/Bane hybrid (and explains why he is now more shortsighted in his goals and favours the church of Bane ruling as tyrant rather than being the power behind the tyrant).

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 08 Apr 2014 : 20:00:34

Oh and thanks for the kind words. Gives me a warm fuzzy feeling inside

Razz
Senior Scribe

USA
749 Posts

Posted - 19 May 2014 : 02:10:12

Velsharoon is an extremely young deity, pre-Spellplague that is. He only rose in 1369 D.R. I believe.

It has been said Talos was the one that got him to his deific position (and then later learned that Talos did this to MANY mortals, because he would always leech divine energy from these newly arisen demigods), so maybe it was Talos who kept him divine until Velsharoon gathered worshippers (which would not have been hard to do in his newly gifted status).

We also do not know for sure if Velsharoon had followers already, at least to get him started once he acquired demigod status. My question is...how did Szass Tam not find out about this guy since he was a Red Wizard as a mortal and all? Or maybe Velsharoon was being protected from Szass by Talos, and probably received much of his necromantic power from Talos directing him.

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36804 Posts

Posted - 19 May 2014 : 03:01:05

quote:
Originally posted by Razz

My question is...how did Szass Tam not find out about this guy since he was a Red Wizard as a mortal and all? Or maybe Velsharoon was being protected from Szass by Talos, and probably received much of his necromantic power from Talos directing him.

Vellie likely stayed off of Szassy's radar for a while, and may have even faked his own destruction to escape Szassy's notice. It's also possible that Szassy was watching Vellie, but didn't realize what he was doing until it was too late -- or his plans to act before Vellie could succeed were somehow thwarted.

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 19 May 2014 : 07:04:48

Well Myrkul is from Murghom, Bhaal I think is from Semphar, and Bane could be an Untheri from Chessenta(seeing how he is based on Druaga, maybe he was the deitiy’s servant, or built his divine persona on legends of the Ruler of The Devil World), so I think that Moonsea being were their priesthood originated, is a good idea. I think they may had started their 'recrutation' in the Old Empires region, among people dissatisfied with the God-Kings, and on the opposite, north west side of Moonsea, to absorb Jergal's worshippers. From those two power bases they could convert people around the Moonsea, before spreading their worshippers to whole Faerun.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 19 May 2014 : 08:38:19

Well looking at one of the old adventures of the realms it describes Bane's arrival from another world. Supposedly a portal opens above a mountain range in the Vilhon Reach somewhere. Interesting that you mentioned Druaga, in a reworking of Chessenta i did i moved Druaga into Chessenta along with the other Babylonian gods. Looks like i might have to revisit it and suggest a link.

I havent really found anything linking the churches of Jergal and the Dark Three at all.

If Jergal did pass anything on to Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul other than relinquishing his portfolios, i dont think it was his church or his worshippers.

Using the Bedine creation myth it is entirely likely that Jergal just abandoned his followers wholesale. Many of the other gods were busy with other things it seems because they did little to help either (Dawn Cataclysm perhaps).

The only church that we know had direct involvement in the aftermath of Netheril's fall is Ammaunator (note church and god are separate in all things and if i had my way the gods would almost never have any direct involvement with the realms), and he did not do well out of such involvements. His church's arbitrary application of the law contributed to the downfall of the survivor states and his worship disappeared because of it.

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11829 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2014 : 00:14:20

quote:
Originally posted by Razz

Velsharoon is an extremely young deity, pre-Spellplague that is. He only rose in 1369 D.R. I believe.

It has been said Talos was the one that got him to his deific position (and then later learned that Talos did this to MANY mortals, because he would always leech divine energy from these newly arisen demigods), so maybe it was Talos who kept him divine until Velsharoon gathered worshippers (which would not have been hard to do in his newly gifted status).

We also do not know for sure if Velsharoon had followers already, at least to get him started once he acquired demigod status. My question is...how did Szass Tam not find out about this guy since he was a Red Wizard as a mortal and all? Or maybe Velsharoon was being protected from Szass by Talos, and probably received much of his necromantic power from Talos directing him.

Velsharoon and Szass Tam were enemies. Its heavily hinted that Velsharoon was probably one of the (little documented... covered up?) Halruaans who helped start Thay's revolution. Velsharoon aspired to be the Zulkir of Necromancy and was chased out by Tam and a group of other red wizards centuries ago (can we say Mulans want to kick out non-Mulans). Then Velsharoon upstaged Tam doubly by not only becoming the god of necromancy (which outranks Zulkir of necromancy), but also god of liches (which outranks Tam being a lich).

Its the year AFTER Tam's disastrous failure with the death moon orb to control Eltab that Velsharoon ascends to godhood. I believe that Tam's descent into madness and attempting to seize control of Thay was fueled by these two things (jealousy of Velsharoon AND the death moon orb's curse fueling this jealousy and lust for power). I don't doubt at all that Velsharoon egged on Tam (even though he was a god, he probably sent signs through his clergy.... and I bet several red wizard necromancers chortled heavily at Tam's expense behind his back). The fact that Tam got the death moon orb and Thakorsil's Seat from Larloch makes me think that Larloch set Tam up, knowing that his competitive nature would get the best of him.

However, Larloch's hand may be playing an even deeper game here. For instance, Velsharoon takes on the alias of Mellifleur (the god of liches). I've surmised in the past that I believe that the ritual to ascend used by Velsharoon involved using one of Mellifleur's phylacteries as well as the Skull Staff of the Necromancer. I believe that Velsharoon recovered the Skull Staff of the Necromancer. However, it MIGHT be that Larloch gave him the Phylactery of Mellifleur. After all, nowhere is there a larger concentration of liches than Larloch's "Warlock's Crypt".... so its likely that when the ToT happened, Mellifleur sought out an avatar amongst his worshippers in the "Warlock's Crypt". I have no doubt that Larloch could have destroyed an avatar of Mellifleur.... or even entrapped him within Mellifleur's own phylactery.

So, Larloch may have tempted Velsharoon with godhood, knowing that Velsharoon would likely turn to Mystra over being Talos' servant. So, was Larloch trying to aid Mystra? Did he have some foreknowledge of the ToT and further things to come? It is kind of interesting in that Larloch builds Warlock's Crypt in the year that Mystryl died (following her death and the loss of his own enclave), but no one ever really hears any more of him until 1890 years later... just a few years before the ToT occurs. Its also kind of interesting that when Mystra dies.... the death moon orb explodes.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2014 : 06:49:47

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

I havent really found anything linking the churches of Jergal and the Dark Three at all.

If Jergal did pass anything on to Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul other than relinquishing his portfolios, i dont think it was his church or his worshippers.

Using the Bedine creation myth it is entirely likely that Jergal just abandoned his followers wholesale. Many of the other gods were busy with other things it seems because they did little to help either (Dawn Cataclysm perhaps).

Actually, I meant that the Dark Three converted some of the Netherese survivors, and other people who worshipped Jergal. I don’t think Jergal had to have an active role in this, and in the Bedine befieves themselves, his role /alias N’asr was passed to Myrkul and latter, Cyric. I also meant to write that The Dark Three converted people around the Sea of Fallen Stars, not just Moonsea, before moving to the rest of Faerun. I completely forgot about Bane origins in another world, thanks for reminding me

Maybe Bane was out of our world, but ancient times like the Mulani(Ed wrote about portals connecting Earth and Toril in different time periods if I remember right), or the Mask of Red Death world? He could possibly find the portal to Faerun, tracking clues about Imaskari in his/ours world.

Edited by - Baltas on 20 May 2014 06:50:26

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2014 : 08:44:39

Well i will start with the Bedine because i also did a bit of research into them and their origin myths and the worship of their gods.

First of all the Bedine dont really worship gods. They pay homage to spirits but have much use for a god as they do for a house cat. In the mind of the Bedine, the gods abandoned them to their fate. First the fall of Netheril, then the destruction of the survivor states, then the arrival of the djinn. In all these things the gods and their churches did nothing and so the Bedine have turned their backs on the gods.

As such the names and the form of worship of these gods have become corrupted. Nasr is a corruption of an alias of Jergal, Atar is a corruption of Ammaunator. The origin stories behind these gods reflects the Bedine's opinion of their actions during the troubles that befell the survivors of Netheril (and those stories do not paint the gods in a good light).

Therefore the Bedine are definitely not part of the organised churches of Bane, Bhaal, or Myrkul because the Bedine do not worship Bane, Bhaal or Myrkul. The Bedine do pay homage to a spirit called Nasr, and if any Bedine priest were to worship Nasr individually then Myrkul (and later Cyric) would provide spells, but that would be for their own benefit and the priest almost certainly would not have a clue about it, because they are dealing with Nasr. However as i said earlier the Bedine dont pray, they dont like magic, and they dont like the gods.

Next comes the churches of the Dark Three. The Code of the Harpers (supported by the Ruins of Zhentil Keep) states that the worship of Bane and other Dark Gods arrived on the northern shores of the sea of Fallen Stars in the year of Myth Drannor's fall.

From there worship spread to Sembia, then to the Moonsea and Cormyr, and finally to the Western Heartlands and the Savage Frontier.

If that is true then the Netherese cannot have worshipped Bane, Bhaal, or Myrkul otherwise that worship would have spread to the north and the western heartlands before Myth Drannors fall because of the Netherese Diaspora.

The worship of Jergal probably continued after Netheril's fall with Myrkul answering the prayers of the faithful of Jergal, but i doubt they were welcomed into the official worship of Myrkul until his church arrived in the area (after 714 DR).

Furthermore if organised worship arrived on the north shores of the sea of fallen stars in 714 DR (after being evicted from southern lands) then we have a possible place of origin for the churches of the dark three, i.e. the southern shores of the sea of fallen stars which are the Vilhon Reach and Chessenta.

Both of those places were densely populated and decadent and ripe for exploitation by evil. Plus we have an indication that Bane himself arrived in Faerun in the Vilhon Reach area (from an old adventure) through a portal. Then there is the presence of the largest temple to Bane in Faerun being present in Mourktar which is in Chessenta (depending on who you ask).

So i'm almost certain that the churches of the Dark Three originated in the Vilhon Reach/Chessenta area.

I'm wondering if Bane might not be the offspring of Druaga, left behind on Faerun. After all Druaga is a babylonian/sumerian deity (i think) and so should have come to Faerun with the Mulhorandi and Untheric gods (Untheric gods being a mix of Sumerian and Babylonian).

I might be misremembering here but wasnt Bane supposedly the offspring of some outer planar being. Druaga would certainly fit the bill there and his/her monstrous appearance could explain away some of Bane's odd physical characteristics (i think he was slightly demonic in appearance).

And no one quote Imaskari Planar Barrier here because I dont bother with that nonsense.

Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2014 : 09:23:03

Hmm, didn't hear that about Bane, that he had an outer planar parent, but I know his son, Iyachtu Xvim, had a Demon for his mother. But him being Druaga's son, would be definitely interesting. Also, Draga is connected in real world to Ahriman/Angra Mainyu, who in turn is connected in D&D to Asmodeus. Drauga is the King of the Devil World/God of Devils. Asmodeus is the ruler of Baator(esentialy, the devil world), and dod/king of devils. And here's the kicker, Druaga's holy symbol, and prized possesion is the Ruby Mace. Asmodeus' prized possesion is his Ruby Rod, and is one of his holy symbols...

Does this mean Glasya is Bane's sis?

Edited by - Baltas on 20 May 2014 09:27:49

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2014 : 10:13:20

Well as always when things get too real world i stick to the interpretation that Ed used real world gods for inspiration only.

Tyr for instance is definitely not the Norse Tyr (i know i asked Ed recently).

So once the god gets to Faerun its connection to real world cosmology should really end. And in fact there is no guarantee the Mulan gods even came from earth, its just implied and in the end isnt really important.

However feel free to let your mind run wild because thats the fun thing about FR. But for me the connection would stop at Druaga. I have imported Druaga into my Chessentan/Babylonian pantheon (which is separate from the Untheric/Sumerian pantheon), and so Druaga is some kind of monster god that either came to Faerun in the Ship of the Gods (he probably hid in the cargo hold as i doubt they would bring him willingly) and was killed sometime later by Gilgeam during his descent into madness and lust for power.

Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2014 : 13:11:52

Yeah, I may over think here stuff a bit. But I used Druaga already in my campaign, as way to explain how Asmodeus could just so push himself so suddenly into the pantheon. There is also the bit of mystery if the current Bane is just Bane, Iyachtu Xvim in disguise, or some fusion of them. There some evidence on all of those options. I also wonder what Bane's relations will be with the newly resurrected Bhaal.

[edit]

Also Ed's answer about Tyr was amazing, him being a beholder god is something unexpected and facsinating. I always liked Tyr, and new lore about him is always welcome by me

Edited by - Baltas on 20 May 2014 13:17:29

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2014 : 14:03:20

Ewwww, who mentioned 4th edition lore in one of my threads. Unclean, unclean.

But apart from the initial horror, i reckon Bane is not Bane at all but Xvim with a large infusion of Bane juice.

And how would Bane interact with Bhaal. He will try to dominate him just like before and like he does with everyone else. He is a tyrant and he has to be in charge of everything

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2014 : 14:50:38

Except that contradicts lore published in the Planescape setting, and the rule is "Ed's spoken word is canon... unless contradicted by something in-print elsewhere".

Tyr is Tyr. You can do whatever you like in YOUR Realms, but thats the canon. Now, if Ed's lore were to appear somewhere in official print (that means with the WotC logo attached to it), then it would over-rule the Planescape lore. Newer lore trumps older lore (which seems to have been the 4e mantra).

As for 4e lore itself - its not too bad, if you backwards-engineer it for your campaigns.

As for Druaga, I peg him as the same being as 'the Assassin of the Gods' (1e DnD), and also the being that eventually became The Copper Demon of Troos (who managed to escape his Raumathari prison when Karsus cast his final spell and the Weave faltered). He was a powerful demon lord (oni?) who carved-out his own kingdom in Hell, but was eventually driven-out. The fact that he was also know as 'The Assassin of the Gods' (in my HB musings) means he had some divine-backing to accomplish all of this (possibly The Dark Three, and it could have been a mutual thing during their own rise to power).

Eltab was probably a great rival/enemy of his. He may have also had dealings with Graz'zt (another fiend who 'crossed lines' in the lower planes). Once again, just my own musings about all of this.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Edited by - Markustay on 20 May 2014 15:03:54

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2014 : 15:05:55

Canon schmanon

Might have to go and read about the assassin of the gods now though. I wish there was a bit more on the copper demon of tros, at least a better clue as to what he was. Freedom to create is good, but too much freedom can also be a problem.

I wonder who came up with the idea for the copper demon. Maybe i could go and pick his brains for more detail.

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2014 : 15:25:40

There is various bits about the Copper Demon spread all over the place. One place that is often over-looked is the 2e Book of Artifacts (the stuff in the Acorn of Wo Mai entry - the K-T material states that it was the copper Demon bound therein). George Krashos and I have been knocking-around theories about him for years (like that he caused the downfall of Tsharoon, and that 'Troos' was actually that kingdom's capital).

As for the Assassin of the Gods - I don't even remember him appearing in any of the K-T stuff, other then some scribe-musings in something stored here at the keep (he was killing-off k-T gods/kami during the ToT). His only appearance, AFAIK, is in the old Deities & Demigods book. He is reptilian, so its easy to say he is an ancient Sauroid (Sarrukh) or even Batrachi aspect of Druaga (the Sarrukh had a kingdom nearby at the Lake of Salt). Thats why I think he had an ancient presence on Abeir-Toril, and then perhaps rose to power again after some discoveries by the Imaskari (and their later survivor-states, which would include Narfel and Raumathar).

Tying him to Druaga is 100% my concept - one of those 'deeper secrets' just about no-one would know. Druaga looks like he could be tied to both the Sarrukh (reptilian, like tAotG) and the Batrachi (he has some tentacles going on). Perhaps even an ancient (primordial?) proto-demon worshiped by both (or more) of those Creator races.

QUESTION:
BTW, where can I find that question by you and response by Ed - I am looking for it right now, but if you could nudge me to the right page?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Edited by - Markustay on 20 May 2014 15:31:04

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2014 : 15:54:07

Yeah i got the bits about the copper demon from the book of artefacts. Gives more history about the ivory necklace than about the demon but every little helps. Never heard of Tsharoon though.

I dont know what page Ed's quote is on, although it was dated either the 12th March or the 13th March. However i copied the whole quote into another thread so here it is.

quote:
Tyr (known variously as "Achanatyr," "the Sword of Justice," "Arrtyr Judge Of All," and several other names (including Anachtyr), was indeed in the Jhaamdathi pantheon. And existed before that (so he's been around for at least FIVE thousand years). One small, secretive underground Tyrran cult that has existed down all those centuries (with some beholder worshippers as well as humans, and a sprinkling of elves who cleaved to rigid order) is veneration of Iltyr, the Blind But All-Seeing Eye (a huge weeping black [all pupil, no iris or sclera] eye that floats and flies about, trailing a small prehensile tail, and "speaks" boomingly in the minds of those near to it, discerning rights and intent and making judgements; very popular with individuals who desire a guide in life telling them precisely what the right thing to do is, whenever they seek moral guidance; there are secret worshippers of Iltyr among the nobility of Waterdeep and of Cormyr to this day, so if you ever find a curtained-off alcove in a nobles' mansion with a wall painting inside it that has any image that includes large, staring eyes that confront the viewer [or just one eye], you've found a private family chapel to Iltyr, something that's often explained away as "the only portrait we have of [[this or that illustrious ancestor]], but that very direct stare is disconcerting to everyone, so we keep it hidden away, just for us").

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2014 : 16:59:57

Ah, okay - I had read that before. It doesn't exactly say he was a beholder-deity, just that he had beholder worshipers. It can still all be woven together ('aspects' and what-not). Thanks for the re-quote.

Tsharoon was briefly mentioned in Ed's Athalantar article - it existed where the Quoya desert is now. Thus, its 'capital' would have been one of those ruined settlements found therein, and we had played with the idea its name was 'Troos' (tying it to the Copper Demon).

More Musings: This is a combination of stuff discussed between myself and others (including Krash), that I have woven together into my own homebrew lore. Raumathar was originally a nature-loving culture, but during their on-going war with Narfel they slowly became corrupted, as they needed to adapt and borrow 'tech' from their enemy in order to counter them. One thing they did was create suits of armor VERY similar to Helmed Horrors (but made of copper - their druid-based magic and culture shied-away from iron), and this construct worked very much in the same way as a genie lamp: If brought into close contact with a fiendish (and possibly ANY Outsider) entity it would bind the the thing within it, and anyone controlling the suit could control the enity within (and its power). In most cases, this was a very effective strategy to use against the demon-summoners of Narfel (turning their own diabolic troops against them).

However, the Copper demon (being a demon-lord and of demi-god status) was far too powerful to control, and so instead - after capturing him within a suit of copper armor - imprisoned him in Fan-Lag.* When the weave faltered (when Karsus cast his spell), the Demon was able to escape his prison cell, but not the armor. Instead, he took control of the armor and fled from Raumathar (fearing they would be able to re-establish control) down-river into nearby Tsharoon, where he became known as 'the Copper Demon of Troos'. He eventually set-up his own court and ruled the place, driving into into ruination within a few decades. The drying-up of The Endless wastes did not help matters (thats another story, but related to the fall of Imaskar), and in the end Tsharoon lie forgotten in the new desert of Quoya.

After leaving that devastation behind him, he encountered Wo Mai, and thats where the rest of the story begins. He managed to escape the acorn during the ToT, but it is unclear weather he escaped his copper Armor, or if he continues to wear it by choice.

*Fan Lag - this place is almost entirely homebrew. It is a prison-island in the center of the Upper Arundi River (which runs through Quoya) used to house dangerous criminals/enemies during the Narfel-Raumthari war, and was completely abandoned after The Great Conflagration. Picture it being like one of those comic-book prisons where they house 'supers'. There is a mention of a 'ruined city' in The Code of the Harpers sourcebook in that same exact area, and thats actually where I got the idea for the prison-city. According to that source, it was ruled by a vampire-lord in the 2e era. I just named it and gave it a history.

And once again, everything above is 99.9% homebrew, all based on tiny little canon bits some of us have woven together.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Edited by - Markustay on 20 May 2014 17:08:00

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2014 : 18:52:45

That theory is surprisingly close to what me and Sleyvas came up with for the copper demon in idle musings on the Hordelands thread.

Its so close that I'm going to have to use it. The only thing that needs tying in there is the Kalmyk/Suren people. The copper demon of Tros caused the fracturing of the Kalmyk people and caused the Suren to drive west into Narfell (where they became the modern Nar peoples).

Now I have been wondering where the Nar came from and even more why they moved into Narfell.

Now the where they come from I actually think is Zakhara (short, dark hair, tanned skin, horse nomads - sounds like Arabian peoples to me). But the why they came to the Endless Wastes I think has something to do with the Scattering of Fate that led to the Bedine in Anauroch as well.

I reckon they may have uncovered the Copper Demon and therefore become his target. Tsharoon may have been the Kalmyk nation because they owned the land known as the plain of horses and the Suren fled that land when the copper demon arrived.

What I would like to do further is because the acorn of whathisface is now lost I want the spirit of the copper demon to have escaped and is now pursuing the Nar intent on revenge. Because it is without doubt that the Kalmyks helped in defeating the copper demon. The story describes 7 heroes and 7 non men. Typically in advanced societies (Netheril, Imaskar, Rome) they would describe the barbarians as non-men because they were not the same as them. So rather than have 7 weird races it is instead 7 horse nomads (probably the leaders of the seven tribes of the Suren who then fled the endless wastes immediately after in case the copper demon should ever escape.

Of course for me the armour wasn't copper (too easy) it was ferrous in nature and magnetic to boot. The slow corrosion of the armour turned it red (like copper) and it now resides at the centre of the Mountain of Iron.

And if you ever rewrite any of your homebrew lore please send it my way. I could even publish it in my fan mag if you fancied it.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2014 : 19:03:21

And I found the Code of the Harpers reference, and then cross referenced it against the map in the Hordelands book then just to double check I used a Handsome Rob map and hey presto Fan Laag is there on the Arundi River.

If ever an update of the Hordelands book ever gets written then I wouldn't be surprised to find Fan Laag or Lang in there.

I was struggling for a reason for the copper demon to be so far away from Raumathari lands but a high security prison is a perfect reason to place it so far away. The death of Mystryl also gives a great timing for escape and the Kalmyks were probably already there by that time so it all ties in nicely. Thankyou again for the help its just a shame this is not the Hordelands thread as I will never think to look in here again.

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