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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 07 Feb 2014 : 16:15:49

I found this quote in code of the harpers which may help narrow down where Bane's church originate

quote:
The lands around the Inner Sea (particularly the Vilhon Reach) have always been fertile and over-populated, sending forth periodic waves of explorers seeking their fortunes elsewhere in the
Realms, as things become too crowded.
Unlike the orcs, who do the same thing in the North, sweeping south in vast raiding hordes whenever overcrowding makes them restless (usually about once a decade), these men came to settle. With them they brought all the concerns and doings of men in the Old Empires#151; including the cruel faiths of evil gods, often driven out of their warmer homelands by their fearful neighbors. These included those who worshipped Bane, Bhaal, Loviatar, and Myrkul, and these decadent faiths joined the followers of Malar, the Lord of the Hunt, in the ranks of #147;priesthoods that are violent#148; in the North.

Now this was mentioned in a section about the founding of the Harpers and what happened to them after the fall of Myth Drannor.

So we have a likely possibility that Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul's priesthood originated in the lands around the Sea of Fallen Stars possibly centred on the Vilhon Reach.

So maybe Bane's church did originate in Mourktar which may not be in the Vilhon Reach but is on the Sea of Fallen Stars.

And maybe Stellac Benadi was Imperceptor of that church in Mourktar before being named High Imperceptor by Bane and travelling to Flostren's Hold to establish an subterranean empire to Bane.

Anyway just thought i would share

hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1152 Posts

Posted - 07 Feb 2014 : 22:00:02

I am pulling my beard with interest.

When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.

Head admin of the FR wiki:

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/

George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6666 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2014 : 01:42:26

This sounds right to me. Given the tumult the region has endured over the centuries, I would think that a god of strife would have revelled in all the fun.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4211 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2014 : 02:44:09

Awesome catch D!

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2014 : 12:48:11

Well apart from its beginning if you read the ruins of zhentil keep and code of the harpers you can get a very comprehensive history of banes church.
At least now we know all the churches come from the southern shores of the inner sea

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7989 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2014 : 20:27:37

I would say �some�, not �all�. These passages probably document only one of the paths by which these churches arose, there could have been (and likely were) others. Bane, for example, had already been active throughout the Northern Moonsea regions (through servants like Tyranthraxus). Why assume that the deities of Toril are limited to specific regions? They can exist anywhere their followers exist.

The Dead Three gained their powers from Jergal, who was worshipped in Ancient Netheril. Jergal and the Dead Three (Bane, Bhaal, Myrkul) must�ve been known by the survivors of Netheril who did not flee/migrate Southwards.

[/Ayrik]

Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe

Malaysia
552 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2014 : 05:49:33

Note that this may not be Canon:

*In NWN2 Mask of the Betrayer, when you enter that shadow version of Mulsantir, the statues of Mystra, Miellieki and Chauntea are replaced with Velsharoon, Malar and...Talos if im not mistaken...

These can be considered a Dark Trio if you use a campaign prior to the Spellplague.

Everything ends where it begins. Period.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2014 : 11:34:22

Well this specifically refers to the organised churches of Bane Bhaal and Myrkul.
So its not referring to individuals or shrines which may well have been spread throughout the realms.
The church is stated as coming to the north shores of the inner sea from the lands south and then spreading across the dragon reach and into the heartlands.
So we know that the churches didnt exist in those lands prior to this.
We also know the dark three churches did not have a presence in unther or mulhorand.
Therefore we are looking at the vilhon reach and chessenta as the origin lands if their churches.
It makes sense given that the vilhon reach was largely responsible for seeding the heartlands with people and so they probably took their religion with them.
The vilhon reach and chessenta areas were also rife with tyrants, death, disease and assassins so gods patronising these things are going to be popular.
So for banes church stellac benadi was probably the leader of the church and maybe responsible for organising it into the hierarchy it maintained until fzoul arrived. It looks like he began the spread of banes church north since it was around his time that happened.
I think my next project will be to collect as much of the history of banes church

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11829 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2014 : 15:14:08

This fits most of the lore I've looked up on the matter. In particular, there's been some research around the keep in the last 5 or 6 years devoted to when Bane himself came around as a deity. I want to say that we got really narrowed in to the years just preceding Karsus' Folly OR just after it (and my preference was just preceding, so that Mellifleur's and Bane, Bhaal, Myrkul ascension could make Karsus jealous). I can't find the reference we used in the 300's DR, but I want to say it was a reference around either Bhaal or Myrkul rather than Bane.

I also theorized that perhaps the formation of Mellifleur the lich deity by accidentally drawing from Bane's power happened at the same time as the dark 3... and possibly he drew from all 3 of them, but his entry only happened to list Bane... it would fit if a god of liches also drew from Myrkul as well as Bane, as well as the lord of the instance of death <I.e. Bhaal>) or just following it.

A link to some discussions about Bane's ascension. Main note: the dark three slew Borem of the Boiling mud in -359 DR
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9985&whichpage=1

Here's a link that talks about Bane and trying to nail down his date of ascension
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8431&whichpage=2

Here's a link that talks about some ideas with Bane and Mourktar
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17887&whichpage=1

A discussion on possible early history for Myrkul
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18348&whichpage=3

Here's a link to some of my suppositions on Mellifleur, Velsharoon, and Orcus
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17205

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2014 : 15:56:26

I will have to get reading then. It is a shame they chose to make the zhents and therefore the church of and bane himself a comical buffoon.
He will definitely be an evil mastermind in my games. All three of them will b super evil and not a comic moment in sight, just like they should have been.

Never realised the history of the church of bane and the harpers were so entwined until I really started reading code of the harpers. In fact the harpers are entwined with and define quite a lot of the big baddies of the realms

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2014 : 16:21:52

Mind you, just because their FAITHS first appeared around the southern Inner Sea does NOT mean those people - as MORTALS - originated or operated in those regions (its a strong possibility, but not necessarily a fact).

If they ascended in the north - as I think they did (around the Moonsea region) - it is quite possible that after ascension they would try to promote their new godhood in warmer and more densely populated areas (we know Myrkul was from Murgh�m, so it would make sense if he wanted to become a deity in The Old Empires).

Its also interesting (to me) that Loviatar is in that mix, since I think her sister, Kiputytto, was actually originally part of the group that started killing-off 'the Lost Gods' (just a personal theory, mind you).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Edited by - Markustay on 11 Feb 2014 16:22:27

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2014 : 16:54:08

I also found the Loviatar mention quite interesting for exactly the same reason.

However given the "Black Lords Cloak" in Mourktar it is entirely possible that the Dark Three returned south to adventure for a time before ascension, by that time they would have absorbed the power of 7 primordial beings and so would be super human.

All they needed then to elevate them to godhood is the mortal belief that they are the gods of murder, tyranny, death etc (after all just because Jergal gives them his portfolios wont matter one bit if everyone on Faerun believes Jergal is still the god of murder, tyranny, death etc.

Anywho, this thread definitely wasnt about the Dark Three, just the beginnings of their church, the churches are often just as mysterious as the gods themselves.

Going through the history and the other regions i note that Bane, Bhaal, Loviatar, and Myrkul are not mentioned at all in the faiths of the Vilhon Reach which fits with the blurb about those religions being driven to the north of the Moonsea by their neighbours.
In fact there is a very large percentage of good and neutral only gods in the Vilhon Reach. The only exceptions being Malar and Talos who are nature orientated.

Also Banelar nagas are found in large numbers throughout the vilhon reach (there is that river that is full of nagas) so that might be another indicator of Bane's church's previous presence in the area. It says in a later source that Teldorn Darkhope rediscovers the means for creating banelar nagas so maybe Bane created them himself originally.

So it looks like the evil faiths of the Vilhon Reach were driven away around 700 DR. Looking at the history of the Vilhon Reach it was full of plagues and wars and civil wars so i'm guessing those churches were blamed (probably quite rightly so) for instigating those events.

From there the dark churches establish themselves in Sembia and migrate to the dragon coast (southern coast, not cormyr).

As far as the church of Bane goes. When Stellac Benadi comes to power after the move to Sembia (he may even have created the orthodox church of Bane in its current form), he starts the establishment of the church in the fledgling Moonsea north. (750 DR to 844 DR). He then becomes a banelich and establishes his little underground kingdom below Zhentil Keep.

Successive High Imperceptors bring the church of Bane to the Western Heartlands and then the Savage Frontier and the Sword Coast North.
I dont know where Mourktar comes into it but since the church of Bane was driven from the Vilhon Reach in the 700's DR then it isnt inconceivable for other members of the church to flee east to Mourktar and establish a new temple (maybe over the site of an existing temple).

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2014 : 20:08:38

Actually, now that I think about it how could Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul ascend to godhood without a prolonged campaign to make the humans of Faerun believe in them.

As many have speculated on here before, belief shapes the god more than the god shapes the belief.

So Jergal steps down and relinquishes his portfolios to the Dark Three. They announce to all their clergy(at some significant deific energy cost) that they are now the gods of whatever.

However the lay people just carry on as normal and so more and more Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul become like Jergal and then just merge into one.

Other scenario is that the Dark Three after their campaign to bind the seven primordials to their will the essentially go on a marketing campaign. They wander the lands of Faerun declaring to all and sundry that they are now the gods of murder, tyranny and death. They perform feats of magic and skill far beyond mere mortals to back up these claims (they have the power of 7 primordials to call on to fuel this) and hey presto people actually start believing they are the gods of murder tyranny and death.

They ascend when they have enough belief and Jergal doesn't interfere and lets them have his portfolio's uncontested (he sponsored their ascension after all).

And as to where this ascension took place.

Well -357 DR they were in or near the Thar/Tortured Lands area. However that quickly becomes depopulated and home to ogres, minotaurs, orcs, and worse.

The Moonsea is almost completely forest until way after 0 DR and is the home of the elves so they aren't going to get many converts there.

The Netheril Basin gets pretty much annihilated in -339 DR so if they had planned to get worshippers there it probably isn't worth the effort after -339 DR.

The Savage Frontier is mostly isolated holdings and barbarian tribes, certainly there isn't much scope for strife and tyranny so Bane wouldn't like it.

Sembia doesn't really exist, the dalelands are too small.

So as the Code of the Harpers states they probably went south. The Vilhon Reach is fertile and vastly overpopulated (a Code of the Harpers quote) which leads to wars and plagues and is also a prime place for evil activities such as murder, and tyranny.

I really think the Dark Three headed to the Vilhon Reach, and wandered the area proving to everyone that they were avatars of the new gods of murder, death, and tyranny. After a hundred years or so everyone really believed it and we have some new gods running around. New gods that look and act like Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul

Demzer
Senior Scribe

877 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2014 : 21:15:49

Without the intention of shooting down your theory, i'll note here that, as far as i know, it is the ToT that "chained" the deities to their worshipers beliefs, i don't know if before that becoming a deity was as "simple" as getting enough "power".

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2014 : 21:42:00

Well I dont really bother with the novel events. It makes no sense to have a god if no one worships you and we have past instances if gods fading because they werent worshipped by anyone (amaunator, kozah, moander) and they were all pre ToT.
So maybe the rules were always quite similar they were just reorganised with ToT so that worshippers and zeal if worship equals more deific power after ToT.

In fact I think I read somewhere that is what happened, a gods power was tied more directly to his worshippers which means they were already linked before but maybe there were other contributing factors to their deific power levels that were later removed post ToT.

It just doesnt make sense to have gods draw power fromanything other than worship.
E.g. a god comes along and declares himself the god of dogs. However no one worships him because why would you worship a god of dogs, dogs dont worship him either because they are incapable, but because he has a portfolio he derives power from every dog in existence (until the ToT when he promptly vanishes).

It just doesnt make sense. No worshippers, no god.

Apologies for rambling its my bed time

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36804 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2014 : 21:47:12

I don't think anything says you have to be worshipped prior to ascension -- just that after you've ascended, you've got to have the worship. Finder ascended without prior worship; heck, he had just learned his own name a couple days previously. Kelemvor wasn't worshipped prior to his ascension, either, and there isn't any notation about Velsharoon having had prior worship.

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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11829 Posts

Posted - 12 Feb 2014 : 00:44:35

I've been kind of going back through my dates. We know the dark three weren't deities in -359 DR and -357 DR because of Borem of the Boiling Mud's death date and the events of certain adventures. We know from Lands of Intrigue that a young noble of Clan Fyrson, in -88 DR, was charged with worshipping the dark gods Bane and Myrkul. This puts there ascension between at least these two dates.

We also know Bane was creating his Baneliches every 50 to 60 years according to the banelich template, and he created AT LEAST 35 of them that are recorded. That equates to roughly 1750 to 2100 years. If we say 1750, then that's -380 DR roughly.... that would be the earliest date, so assuming that a few baneliches happened in less than 50 years (or possibly concurrent) then that would put things more in the early 300's.

We also know that in -342 DR (or 3517 NY as in Netheril Years) a device closely linked to Myrkul (the Crown of Horns) interacted with the most advanced Mythallar ever created by Shadelorn and the magics of some Netherese arcanist named Shenandra at Shadowtop Borough who had just developed a counterspell to the life drain and magic drain spells of the Phaerimm. This interaction absorbed all magic in a 20 mile radius AND killed everyone who was alive via magic there as well. Sounds like a lot of magic and life energy that could be used to fuel becoming a deity.

If this happened just 3 years prior to Karsus' Folly and suddenly there were 3 new deities (possibly 4 if there was also an interaction with Mellifleur that made him god of liches).... hmmmm, what gave Karsus the idea? Also, wasn't Karsus also studying magics to counter the lifedrain and magic drain effects of the Phaerimmm..... coincidence or historians who didn't quite know how to make all the linkages?

From Lands of Intrigue pg 27
Rumors flew fast and furious during the Year of Hostile Hails (-88 DR) about the blasphemous activities of Alaric, one of Clan Fyrson#146;s young nobles, and his cohorts, blamed for piracy, theft, fraud, and the worship of dark gods such as Bane and Myrkul.

From Netheril pg 87 & 88

The Shadowed Age (3163-3519): In 3215, the Crown of Horns was discovered by the eager archwizard Shadelorn who was trying to unlock the key to creating a more powerful mythallar (a project that Ioulaum had abandoned years earlier). After numerous attempts, he finally succeeded in 3517. Up through this time, the archwizard Shenandra had been working on a spell to counteract the phaerimm�s life drain and magic drain spells. After numerous failures, she succeeded in creating a counter spell that simply negated the phaerimm�s magic during the fall months of 3517.

Shadelorn�s research had been altered by the Crown of Horns, that now wanted revenge for its defeat years earlier. At the same time that Shenandra cried out in joy at her success, Shadelorn activated his new improved mythallar. Its activation absorbed all magical items, memorized spells, and continuous spell effects within a 20-mile radius of Shadowtop Borough. Arcanists whose lives had been extended through magic found themselves reduced to ashes by the improved mythallar�s effects. And Shadowtop Borough crashed into the Janick River.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 12 Feb 2014 : 09:10:18

Well Kelemvor and Finder as well as Cyric and Mystra and anyone else that ascended because of the ToT is probably a special case.

Velsharoon however does seem to buck the trend. However didnt he become a demipower, which is actually a halfway house between deity and non deity (they are now called exarches i believe which is annoying but does help somewhat in determining how deities function).

When a god loses worshippers he eventually becomes a demipower.

Demipowers are bound to the material plane and have one avatar so they are as close to killable as a god can get, making them almost mortal.
If they lack enough worshippers and they are killed as a demipower then they may not have enough deific power to create a new avatar ergo they die.

I reckon demipower is actually a halfway house between god and non god. So morals or primordials or anything else ascending to godhood would generally become a demipower. Any god declining in worshipper eventually becomes a demipower.

At that point they are vulnerable to being killed or subsumed by another god (kill the avatar then take the worshippers and you win).

So Velsharoon performs his ritual and becomes a demipower and he suddenly has to scramble around trying to find as many worshippers as possible before another god tries to bump them off. Its a dangerous gamble to take becoming a god without worshippers already.

Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul may have ascended to demipower status and had to do the same or they may have been smart and done the marketing campaign to get enough worshippers so that when they did ascend they became a true deity (lesser status or higher).

I can think of a god that did require enough worshippers to ascend and did so essentially through a marketing campaign. Tchazzar, he staged his death in order to gain worship and admiration to elevate him to godhood.

Back to Bane, i vaguely remember reading somewhere about Bane struggling for control of magic with the newly ascended Mystra (not Midnight) so this was after the fall of Netheril but before ToT.

It would make sense for Bane to do this immediately after the death of Mystryl when Mystra was struggling to control her new power. Ultimately of course Bane lost but it means Bane may have ascended between -357 and 0 DR (i would imagine it takes a few centuries for the goddess of magic to learn her powers fully enough to beat Bane off).

And this is just personal opinion but i think the dark three split the powers of the 7 primordials amongst themselve to essentially make themselves the human equivalent of primordials (which is just like a demipower/exarch except they can't grant spells yet - material plane bound, a single body, can be killed). Then it is that much easier to make the jump to godhood probably requiring a much lower number of worshippers.

Demzer
Senior Scribe

877 Posts

Posted - 12 Feb 2014 : 10:12:49

Well, i don't know how much we want to derail the discussion into deific powers and the Dark Three ascension but there are some assumptions i think are wrong and i feel the need for some hair-splitting:
1 - Your "past instances of gods fading out" are your personal conjectures, we don't know anything about how we got from Amaunator to Lathander and from Kozah to Talos and Moander sure as hell didn't fade anywhere since he kept resurfacing here and there up until Finder killed him/her/it.
2 - Your "god of dogs" example is a perfect way of explaining why most of the Torillian deities have portfolios with more than one element, in this specific case Malar is the closest things you get to a "god of dogs". Also you subconsciously harmstrung your own argument by saying that "a god comes along and declares himself ...", this means this being is already a god, but he laid claim on the portfolio of dogs and canines later, so how did he became a god? And why should his canine endeavors result in him losing his godly status that was his before he started howling and barking?
3 - Your Tchazzar example is flawed by the fact Tchazzar had no deific backing whatsoever, while we know Jergal was involved with the Dark Three (we don't know the specifics of his involvment but we know he was there for the "final push" past mortal limits and into godhood).
4 - I have a lot of reservations on the assumption the Dark Three had stolen the powers of 7 primordials and somesuch: Borem was trapped but very much alive, so much that anyone can pull the knife out and let him free; Kezef was trapped by the greater deities and we don't know if the Dark Three even met him/it; Maram was banished back to its home plane/demiplane, not killed; Tyranthraxus was alive and rocking in Thar (and northern Moonsea shores way after that, in the middle 1300s) after the Dark Three moved on ; Haask and Hargut were bound to each other and confined into Ironfang Keep but are still alive; the only one we know nothing about is Canmod the Unseen. For me it's way more probable all this primordial bashing was Jergal using the Dark Three to clean up his own mess (it's canon he created and set Kezef free) and as a test to see if they had the attributes to claim his mantle.

Also, related to the portfolios of the Dark Three, Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul had portfolio elements from a wide variety of Netheres deities (last time i checked the list of deities from which they took something was: Shar, Moander, Jergal, Kozah, Targus) and this leads me to believe that whatever Jergal and the Three did, they did it around the Fall of Netheril and took advantage of the weakened state of the other deities to go on a rampage and steal portfolios left and right (and this might even be why there is this legend of Bane using only his gauntleted fist because Tempus barred him from using weapons over a portfolio dispute). The scene that's shaping in my mind is that of the Netherese pantheon falling and the other powers swarming the weakened deities so we had Lathander in place of Amaunator, Tempus in place of Targus, Talos in place of Kozah and the Dark Three with a lot of portfolio elements that weren't for Jergal to give to them and they took as spoils from this deific clash. The lack of worship (and the annihilation of temples, shrines and sacred items) surely weakened the Netherese deities, but wasn't enough (for me, at the time) to wipe them out.

Edited by - Demzer on 12 Feb 2014 10:13:18

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 12 Feb 2014 : 11:04:10

Well canon might state one thing but if it dont make sense then chuck it out because its broken.

I go with the sensible. You need worship to be a god. You can do several things to make becoming a god easier or gaining a power boost, but in the end, as time goes on, all that matters is worship - numbers and zeal.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 12 Feb 2014 : 12:37:12

So back to the church.

I'm thinking church of Bane begins in the Chondath/Chessenta area and slowly spreads throughout the region and even reaches Mourktar.

Now like most churches i reckon its initial incarnation was a disorganised mess of random churches placed in areas that didnt immediately boot them out, but there was no communication between the various members. And Bane probably didnt care because he is a god and they are typically uncaring.

Circia 700 DR - After several plagues and civil wars and a whole host of evil events the dark churches (including Bane's), are turfed out of the Chondath region and they move to Sembia (and the Vast maybe since that is on the Dragon Reach).

735 DR - Stellac Benadi is born and eventually comes to power in the church in Mourktar.

Over time Stellac becomes the most powerful priest of Bane in Faerun and sets about unit the various churches in Sembia, Mourktar and the rest of the world into the Orthodox Church of Bane with himself as Imperceptor.

752 DR Stellac even begins to extend the reach of the church of Bane into the fledgling Moonsea area

823 DR - The church of Bane is instrumental in causing and aiding Mourktar secede from Unther.

844 DR - Stellac Benadi is made into the 7th banelich (note that 1010 DR is the date the last banelich is made by Bane according to the Ruins of Zhentil Keep). Tomar of Bane becomes second Imperceptor and during his reign unleashes a plague on the Western Heartlands.

Tomars successor; Herr Santolic who took power in 877 DR was famous for spreading the church of Bane to the Western Heartlands. So i reckon 844 DR Tomar unleashes the plague into the western heartlands to reduce the power of the cities and rulers in the area (unfortunately he catches the plague himself and is made into a banelich). Herr Santolic jumps upon the power vacuum and Bane's church gains a significant foothold in the western heartlands.

So in the 800s DR the church of Bane spreads to the Western Heartlands

Then according to Code of the Harpers the church of Bane is active in the north during the "long years" of Harper History which i calculate to be around 966 DR and 1021 DR. And during this time the hunting of Harpers by the church of Bane became common, and also the Imperceptor of Bane established his own kingdom in the Moonsea North.

Now Stellac Benadi started the church of bane infiltrating the Moonsea in 750's DR, but Wedic Bdondar, the fourth Imperceptor of is known for bringing the church of Bane to its full potential within Zhentil Keep. Wedic Bdondar becomes Imperceptor in 966 DR and another important date during this period is the founding of Mulmaster in 934 DR.

So in the 900's DR i reckon the church of Bane spread to The Savage Frontier and Sword Coast North and fully established itself in the Moonsea, possibly by establishing another major temple The Black Lords Altar in Mulmaster.

1010 DR Forja Bdondar becomes High Imperceptor (not Imperceptor) i take this to be a sign of office and means she commands the two major churches of Faerun, The Black Lords Cloak in Mourktar, and the Black Lords Altar in Mulmaster (the previous Imperceptor may have created the new church but he was already Imperceptor so the new title is created with his successord).

Forja Bdondar is renowned for the vast number of Harpers that die at her hands showing the continuing trend of Harper persecution.

1076 DR the 6th High Imperceptor; Strife, comes to power. He is renowned for uniting the various factions of Bane's church and also for being killed by Harpers in Tsurlagol (they killed him in revenge for the public torture and murder of a harper agent in Selgaunt by the church of Bane).

Now the Code of the Harpers alludes to there being a power struggle in the church of Bane after the death of Strife. I reckon this power struggle occured after the death of any Imperceptor (after all they are evil and everyone is going to want to be in charge).

Now after the death of Forja (who i reckon was in charge of both the Black Lord's Cloak and the Black Lord's Altar), the power struggle for her replacement probably began the schism in the church of Bane that was still ongoing in 1370's). The Black Lord's Cloak temple probably tried to break away from the orthodox church creating a new faction.

Strife brought that faction to heel quite quickly and so the problem went away for a time.

Brist the 7th High Imperceptor comes to power in 1141 DR and launches a war against the other gods of Faerun so that probably keeps the church of Bane busy and so the faction problem remains subdued.

However the current High Imperceptor Szchulan Darkoon is noted as being a weak man installed by senior members of the church.

During his reign we have the schism between the orthodox and non orthodox churches of Bane (non orthodox headed by Fzoul) in 1263 DR.

In 1358 DR during the time of trouble the leader of the Black Lords Cloak in Mourktar; Kabarrath, declares himself Dread Imperceptor. This says to me that he is separating himself from the hierarchy of the orthodox church of Bane and creating another schism church, which i think should be called "The True Church of Bane".

So the 1300's see the fracturing of the church of Bane into it's current state with 3 churches of Bane. The True Church in the south. The non orthodox church in the North, Western Heartlands, and Zhentil Keep. And the Orthodox church centred on Mulmaster, probably including churches in the Vast and Sembia.

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11829 Posts

Posted - 12 Feb 2014 : 13:18:19

quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

Well, i don't know how much we want to derail the discussion into deific powers and the Dark Three ascension but there are some assumptions i think are wrong and i feel the need for some hair-splitting:
1 - Your "past instances of gods fading out" are your personal conjectures, we don't know anything about how we got from Amaunator to Lathander and from Kozah to Talos and Moander sure as hell didn't fade anywhere since he kept resurfacing here and there up until Finder killed him/her/it.
2 - Your "god of dogs" example is a perfect way of explaining why most of the Torillian deities have portfolios with more than one element, in this specific case Malar is the closest things you get to a "god of dogs". Also you subconsciously harmstrung your own argument by saying that "a god comes along and declares himself ...", this means this being is already a god, but he laid claim on the portfolio of dogs and canines later, so how did he became a god? And why should his canine endeavors result in him losing his godly status that was his before he started howling and barking?
3 - Your Tchazzar example is flawed by the fact Tchazzar had no deific backing whatsoever, while we know Jergal was involved with the Dark Three (we don't know the specifics of his involvment but we know he was there for the "final push" past mortal limits and into godhood).
4 - I have a lot of reservations on the assumption the Dark Three had stolen the powers of 7 primordials and somesuch: Borem was trapped but very much alive, so much that anyone can pull the knife out and let him free; Kezef was trapped by the greater deities and we don't know if the Dark Three even met him/it; Maram was banished back to its home plane/demiplane, not killed; Tyranthraxus was alive and rocking in Thar (and northern Moonsea shores way after that, in the middle 1300s) after the Dark Three moved on ; Haask and Hargut were bound to each other and confined into Ironfang Keep but are still alive; the only one we know nothing about is Canmod the Unseen. For me it's way more probable all this primordial bashing was Jergal using the Dark Three to clean up his own mess (it's canon he created and set Kezef free) and as a test to see if they had the attributes to claim his mantle.

Also, related to the portfolios of the Dark Three, Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul had portfolio elements from a wide variety of Netheres deities (last time i checked the list of deities from which they took something was: Shar, Moander, Jergal, Kozah, Targus) and this leads me to believe that whatever Jergal and the Three did, they did it around the Fall of Netheril and took advantage of the weakened state of the other deities to go on a rampage and steal portfolios left and right (and this might even be why there is this legend of Bane using only his gauntleted fist because Tempus barred him from using weapons over a portfolio dispute). The scene that's shaping in my mind is that of the Netherese pantheon falling and the other powers swarming the weakened deities so we had Lathander in place of Amaunator, Tempus in place of Targus, Talos in place of Kozah and the Dark Three with a lot of portfolio elements that weren't for Jergal to give to them and they took as spoils from this deific clash. The lack of worship (and the annihilation of temples, shrines and sacred items) surely weakened the Netherese deities, but wasn't enough (for me, at the time) to wipe them out.

I'm with Demzer on the fall of the Netherese pantheon around the time of Karsus' Folly. That's why I think that the accident surrounding the crown of horns in -342 involved the dark 3's ascension. I think also that Talos, Lathander, and Tempus came in as a result. However, I don't limit it there either. I think this also kicked off Moander's attack on Tyche that split her, and I half wonder if Jannath didn't give up her power to Chauntea & possibly Mielikki willingly. Let's face it, the only 4 survivors of said pantheon were Selune, Shar, Jergal, and Moander.... and Jergal only survived by giving up his portfolios.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11829 Posts

Posted - 12 Feb 2014 : 13:22:09

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

It would make sense for Bane to do this immediately after the death of Mystryl when Mystra was struggling to control her new power. Ultimately of course Bane lost but it means Bane may have ascended between -357 and 0 DR (i would imagine it takes a few centuries for the goddess of magic to learn her powers fully enough to beat Bane off).

We have a well established span of between -357 and then the next earliest mention is -88DR where the church is fully established with the Lands of Intrigue excerpt. Therefore, its assumed that the Dark Three likely had ascended well before -88 DR.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36804 Posts

Posted - 12 Feb 2014 : 13:42:42

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Well Kelemvor and Finder as well as Cyric and Mystra and anyone else that ascended because of the ToT is probably a special case.

Ah, but I specifically cited examples of mortals who ascended years after the Time of Troubles. Velsharoon's and Finder's ascensions weren't even peripherally associated with the Time of Troubles, and Kelemvor's ascension was only related to the ToT in that he died during the ToT and ascended to replace another mortal who ascended during the ToT.

So they can't be dismissed as ToT special cases.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2014 : 14:09:19

I haven't read all the responses since my last post (here), but I have some theories about how the ascension thing works (to help us explain some of the inconsistencies).

Normally, you have what would be termed a 'hero god' - what D&D calls a demigod. Someone rises up through the ranks, and somewhere between levels 25-30 they begin to 'ascend' to the demigod status. This should be a natural mechanism of the universe, BTW (there are actually rules for this in the old Dragon Kings DS supplement). Fame = veneration = worship. Thats how it usually works - characters have to really work hard to become that powerful before they die. All that admiration (or even fear in some cases) is ENERGY, and is converted into DE (divine energy) through some sort of symbiotic link that forms. Its that energy the deity 'feeds' off of, like fuel. The more worshipers, the more powerful the god becomes. Occasionally, another god comes along and notices the (slowly) ascending mortal, and gives them a boost (so lets say, if The Red Knight was only around level 15 when she ascended, that was because Tempus granted her those extra 10 character levels or so in order to start the normal ascension process.

However, we have plenty of examples of people having 'divinity thrust upon them', which doesn't make sense; if they don't have any worshipers, how are they maintaining their godhood?

Two factors come into play: First, they are still receiving some power from the worshipers of whatever deity they have taken the mantle from (whether freely given, awarded, or taken by force). Kelemvor may not have been Myrkul, and Myrkul's faithful would have spurned him... but his death portfolio would still allow him to siphon-off some of that power that was aimed at Myrkul, because both are still 'the Lord of Death' (so just being part of death's church would give power to any god who has that in it's portfolio).

However, its not always the case that there even was a former deity who's place they took, or the 'new god' in question has a completely different portfolio from the divine being they subsumed (as in the case of Finder and Moander). In that case, they are 'living off the reserves', similar to how a car will still drive for awhile even after the alternator kicks-out; you are just 'running on batteries' until you can recharge. that means a deity in that circumstance BETTER find some worshipers right quick, before he/she uses-up all their reserves (which means a new god has to be very frugal in how they expend their power... or be diminished). So Finder got whatever little power Moander still possessed, and he had to be very careful until he got some followers. I would assume you could be 'demoted' to demigod status in this fashion, but not below that (if entirely out of energy you just go dormant).

This is why I think Kiputytto wasn't truly killed by Talona, just reduced to near-mortal (powerless) status. After all, what could be the WORST possible 'illness' a deity could get? Mortality, of course (or near-mortality, being reduced to DvR 0).

Anyhow, this all means that deities DO indeed need their followers for power (and always have - more on THAT later), but they can exist for a short time without them... so long as they are careful. Just 'being a god' eats-up energy, so unless they voluntarily go dormant, they would start chewing-through their DvR levels fairly quickly. I also think this works much like a 'ladder' does on an online game - you slide down quickest the higher you are. A god would go from DvR 20 to DvR 19 in seconds, but a DvR 1 demipower could last for years before slipping into the final DvR 0 state... if they are careful.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Edited by - Markustay on 13 Feb 2014 14:19:57

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2014 : 14:14:07

Yup thats almost exactly what i was thinking, you have a much better way with words than i do.

Milith holder of HB8
Seeker

USA
63 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2014 : 02:11:34

Most likely after ToT, Ao gave a grace period for a mortal who has recently ascended, giving them time to set up their churches and turn former clerics of the deity. Since worship provides a deity with his energy, we could assume that when Ao approves of a deity, he gives them a packet of divine power to spend to create their churches. Kelemvor could have been a lesser deity and he would have been fine, as he would still have enough power to rule over the land of the dead and Cyric himself couldn't reclaim because the loss of thousands of his own worshipers had weakened him, not to mention by the end of it, he was so loopy he thought it was all his idea.

Hey, babe, see my shiny teeth as I smile my very best wolf smile- Ed Greenwood.

Demzer
Senior Scribe

877 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2014 : 16:15:21

Uhm, re-reading passages of the GHotR i realized that the sidebar about Borem is written using the POV of a dragon whose demesne extended south to the Lake of the Long Arm and west to the Giant's Run Mountains, awfully near Westgate were we have another topaz dragon ruling and writing in draconic on his own topaz scales, Kisonraathiisar.

Since these two dragons are probably one and the same i now have this feeling that the netherese wizard Saldrinar that showed up in -349 to kill Kisonraanthiisar was some kind of leutenant or agent of the Dark Three. Timeline-wise i think it is believable: they met Kisonraanthiisar when they went after Borem in -359 and then went in the Moonsea North lands (very near Netheril) where they battled Maram in -357, this leaves them a lot of time to get some powerful netherese cohorts).

IF Saldrinar was sent by the Dark Three then the Hills of the Seven Lost Gods take a new meaning: maybe the Dark Three used worship directed at the various primordials they subjugated, thus, much like deities get "worship-power" by aliases they use, the Dark Three got "worship-power" from the prayers to the primordials they had fought.

This is of course just an idea, do we know anything more about the Hills of the Seven Lost Gods or about Saldrinar of the Seven Spells?

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11829 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2014 : 23:08:23

interesting take Demzer. Initially, I must say I like that concept. So, they start gathering worship energy via this method, magical and life energy possibly via the Shadowtop Borough explosion. If they also siphon some kind of negative energy flow (especially Myrkul) and possibly some vast blood sacrifice (for Bane and Bhaal) it would make for an interesting ritual.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6361 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2014 : 09:43:32

As i noted in my other thread about the cult of the dragon.

Algashon Nathaire was turned into a banelich by Sammaster (after his 2nd rebirth in 1373/4).

This makes Algashon Nathaire the 36th banelich ever to be created.

It also reinforces a number of links i have noticed between the church of Bane and the Cult of the Dragon.

The third Imperceptor of Bane Herr Santolic who died in 966 was attributed with the spread of the church of Bane into the western heartlands.

Sammaster died in 916 DR and immediately after, Algashon took his faction of the cult of the dragon underground into the western heartlands and the north.

So the church of Bane spread north through the cult of the dragon and Algashon himself.

Furthermore, Algashon must have known how to create Baneliches (who else would have taught Sammaster to do it). Tomar of Bane was the eighth Banelich in 877 DR. Wedic Bdondar was the last banelich created by bane in 1010 DR.

In the intervening years between 877 DR and 1010 DR is almost exactly the time of Algashon and the cult of the dragon. I reckon that Algshon created more than a few baneliches himself (after all Wedic Bdondar is not stated as the ninth, just the last created by Bane himself). It also cannot be a coincidence that the last banelich created by Bane roughly corresponds to the death of Algashon).

A cult of the dragon archmage may have learned the method of creating Baneliches (by stealing it from Algashon) and used it several times after Algashon's death. This caused excessive fracturing of Bane's power (after all each banelich contains a piece of Bane) and so Bane stopped creating the baneliches himself and ordered his servants to kill the rogue baneliches.

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11829 Posts

Posted - 01 Mar 2014 : 12:42:08

I believe you're making some assumptions here as to banelich creation. I think I see where you're getting them from (i.e. Tomar of Bane listed in RoZK pg 41 as being 8th to get "the greatest gift of bane" and Wedic Bdondar as being "Last in Faerun to receive the greatest gift of Bane"). There's nothing that DEFINITIVELY ties "the greatest gift of bane" to Bane making someone a banelich (there is a note that Bane quit making baneliches in 1010 DR and Wedic is noted as dying then... but he could have become a banelich AND received "the greatest gift" as well). For all we know its an actual "gift" in the form of some kind of artifact (similar to the black lord's cloak), or perhaps it was a gift of some kind of power. Heck, for all we know, it was Bane possessing the priest while he goes on a wild sex run, thereby impregnating women with "the seed of Bane".

What we do know is this
"When Bane, the God of Strife, was first establishing his church long ago, those who worshiped him were hounded to their deaths by the forces of good unless they gathered in significant numbers. Tired of his faithful becoming victims, every 50-60 years Bane chose the most powerful priest within the ranks of his clerics and revealed to him or her a foul rite that would transform the caster, through force of faith, strength of will, and Bane�s divine hand, into a powerful, immortal form � a lich of Bane, or Banelich."

Since we know that his church started before -88 DR and there were at least 35 of them (with 10 confirmed dead), I'd find it harder to believe that Tomar was only the 8th such banelich. In fact, it could be really interesting if whenever the 10 were killed, Bane went out of his way to make a new one "outside the normal cycle of 50-60 years". Therefore, if we were to say 25 x 55 = 1375. Then if we say 1010 DR and subtract 1375 years..... we end up around -365... or roughly a few decades from whenever they were on their primordial killing spree..... so very close to whenever he was just starting his religion, as the entry for baneliches states.

Now, how Sammaster raised Algashon up as a banelich in 1373 DR (per DoF), I'd be intrigued to know. Since it doesn't say that he resurrected him and then let Algashon perform the ritual, I'm more inclined to believe that Sammaster did some kind of trickery with an existing banelich. Maybe he found some way to unanchor the soul within the phylactery of a banelich and draw upon and anchor the soul of Algashon into the phylactery/body of an existing banelich. I could actually see Velsharoon taking some interest in this idea, and using it to possibly try to steal away stored divine energy from Bane.... so he helps Sammaster on this one attempt with a new banelich that might turn to Gargauth (and thus make Velsharoon's hands look clean). The big thing here would be that this specific ritual would only work on baneliches (and it should be a long ritual requiring holding the individual banelich hostage).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

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