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Rikudou
Acolyte
12 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Feb 2014 : 08:18:24
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| Ilmater for me |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3823 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2014 : 09:19:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've never thought Sharess wasn't taken seriously, just that she didn't enjoy the same level of regard as some of the deific big names. Most people, I think, simply overlook her -- much like my choice, Lurue.
Yes, I too think that this is the case. Lesser known deities may be be overlooked in favor of the notorious ones, despite standing for interesting and valid concepts. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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TentCrash
Acolyte
11 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2014 : 10:03:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Kris the Grey
3) Like Karyl above, I'm old fashioned, so I would have trouble worshipping any Realms 'deity' since I know they are basically just jumped up mortals (in some cases explicitly so) and I'd not bend my knee to a person merely because they had more power than me. Throw in my Catholicism, and that First Commandment, and you've got a recipe for me not 'going native' in the fashion of many of my players.
Yes, that's probably the answer most Christians would give. Being Buddhist myself, I have nobody to offend by worshipping a "jumped up mortal". Add to that the fact that I'd have another excuse to meditate more with Eldath. The only problem I can foresee is that I might be considered False for holding on to my old beliefs.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've never thought Sharess wasn't taken seriously, just that she didn't enjoy the same level of regard as some of the deific big names. Most people, I think, simply overlook her -- much like my choice, Lurue.
I think the point was that people seem to think Sharess/Bast is all about sex sex sex, when there was a lot more to her. Of course, the way she is presented in the sourcebooks doesn't really help. Bast was about pleasure and cats, sure, but cats in Egypt often meant the difference between plenty and famine. Not to mention her warlike (protective) traits, and aiding in childbirth (not exactly pleasurable, I can say from experience). |
Hail ta ye! |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
893 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2014 : 10:20:06
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So when someone that isn't a sailor worships Selune as a moon goddess he/she isn't taking her seriously because it's overlooking her patronage on navigation?
When someone worships Sune because he/she likes beauty everywhere but isn't engaged in a relationship isn't taking her seriously because it's overlooking her patronage on love?
Faerunian gods and goddesses are multidimensional, some more than others, and the same deity can attract different followers for different reasons.
Sharess' pull on the overwhelming majority of Faerunian worshippers stems from her patronage of pleasure and sex, from the fact her temples hold sacred orgies and not from the fact she's Selvetarm's mother or because there are always cats and other felines in her temples. |
Edited by - Demzer on 03 Feb 2014 10:20:34 |
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TentCrash
Acolyte
11 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2014 : 10:55:02
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| I wouldn't say it bothers me; I just find the emphasis odd. It would be like adding Hephaestus and making him a god of fire or disabled people, rather than metalworking. Or even adding Jesus and making him a god of smashing moneylenders. Sure, these were aspects to them, but it's kind of missing the point, in a way that the Selune and Sune examples aren't. |
Hail ta ye! |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
893 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2014 : 14:05:39
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quote:
Originally posted by TentCrash
I wouldn't say it bothers me; I just find the emphasis odd. It would be like adding Hephaestus and making him a god of fire or disabled people, rather than metalworking. Or even adding Jesus and making him a god of smashing moneylenders. Sure, these were aspects to them, but it's kind of missing the point, in a way that the Selune and Sune examples aren't.
Maybe we have very very different outlooks on Sharess and her portfolio but from all that i've gathered on her in Realmslore her time as Bast and Felidae is just a distant memory (holding only in the Old Empires and with the feline-bond residue everywhere) and she's much more invested in her hedonistic aspect. Thus when i think of Sharess she is the goddess of pleasure and sex first and felines, wanderlust, ecc... second. |
Edited by - Demzer on 03 Feb 2014 14:07:31 |
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TentCrash
Acolyte
11 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2014 : 14:40:53
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| Well, no, I don't think we're actually in disagreement on how she is portrayed in FR, sorry if that wasn't clear. I'm just not a fan of how they've chosen to do it; she was a lot more interesting and nuanced in her original guise, in my opinion. |
Hail ta ye! |
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Karyl
Acolyte
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2014 : 22:40:33
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Most of the deities in the Realms aren't jumped up mortals, though. Some were once mortals and obtained Goodwood, yes, but many have been deities from the beginning. The Realms is a fictional setting, so whatever my faith is in real life (which is actually kind of complicated), for the Realms I would choose a deity (or deities).
Well - the premise of the thread was 'if you were transported to the Realms', which for me is a very different question from 'if you were born into the Realms.' It begs the reader to suspend belief for a moment, and to treat the Realms not as fictional for the purposes of the question, but rather, as a Real Place. If the Realms were a real place, say a different Crystal Sphere, and its deities likewise real, and you were to suddenly find yourself there, knowing all that you know now... whom would you choose to worship? I confess, it's an intriguing question!
As for Kris the Grey's comment above, calling Realms deities 'jumped up mortals'. Some of them quite literally are; some, not so much, as you pointed out. But I think we can agree that the kind of being they would be, were they real, is of a different kind entirely than the God the Abrahamic religions, were He real. Not to wax too philosophical, but the latter is a wholly different 'substance', classified not merely as Creator (in the way some Realms deities are) but even as Being Itself. A claim to which not even Ao supposes!
The point that would follow is this: a Catholic (such as myself) would recognize the very real presence and power of Realms deities, but would also acknowledge that such power is limited. That while the deities are immortal, they are not necessarily unkillable (or undestroyable); they may rise or fall in significance, ascend from mortality or be stripped of godhood. While tremendous beings, not to be trifled with, their ranks may nonetheless be broached by mortals. And so Kris would have no desire to bend the knee in worship to someone set over him by nothing more than circumstance.
For my own part, in this particular campaign, my relationship to the Realms deities is analogous to that of very powerful kings. I acknowledge their authority, influence, and very real power. I'll accept their blessings, should they choose to give them, and work side by side with their faithful - just as I would with any goodly leader. But I won't worship them any more than I would worship any 'classically mortal' king.
This is a very different kind of relationship than one with God as understood on Earth, who is a Being on a sort of unbreachable level, of a different kind entirely, not merely a degree of power. Which would explain my choice to continue in my current course of worship.
Perhaps this is all too heavy-handed for the original question, which seems to be more a question of, 'who would appeal to you to worship - not for coolness factor but as an actual being in themselves, in alignment with your own values?', and I admit, I'm vaulting the intent of that question entirely! But it was so strikingly relevant to the current game I am in with Kris, I could not resist commenting.
In fact, the first conversation I had with Kris about the direction of Karyl-as-character (class-wise) in the Realms went very much along these lines. Neat to come full circle, so to speak. |
Our bones that lie here await yours. |
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TentCrash
Acolyte
11 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2014 : 22:52:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Karyl
Perhaps this is all too heavy-handed for the original question, which seems to be more a question of, 'who would appeal to you to worship - not for coolness factor but as an actual being in themselves, in alignment with your own values?', and I admit, I'm vaulting the intent of that question entirely! But it was so strikingly relevant to the current game I am in with Kris, I could not resist commenting.
No, not at all. Your answer can only be "None, because...", since that's the only answer that wouldn't feel like betraying your beliefs. I'd say you're answering the question correctly. |
Hail ta ye! |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2014 : 03:36:55
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Wooly: oops! I typed that response on my phone, and it has a tendency to assume I meant to type one thing, when I really wanted something else. I didn't even notice that typo until you pointed it out! Lol I meant godhood.
Karyl: you make good points, and I guess I skipped over the "if you were transported to the Realms", and just focused on the part about which deity you would worship if you were in the Realms. If I were in the Realms (I wish it was a real place sometimes. Hey, maybe it is  ) but knew what I know now, I think it would be important to respect the deities of the Realms, and accept their blessings, if given (as you mentioned). But if you had to choose a deity of the Realms to worship, who would it be? Real world beliefs aside. That was my point about the Realms being a fictional place: because it's fictional, it's okay to choose a fictional deity to worship in the game, and for the sake of the question. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Karyl
Acolyte
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2014 : 04:15:26
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| If I were born into the Realms - and had only those to choose from - it would be the Triad (as I wrote before). Lawful good to the core. That being said, though, a great part of my faith and devotion stems from the pursuit of truth-as-such; truth with a capital T, you could say, which interestingly is only referenced incidentally (if at all) in the Triad. Knowledge is intimately connected to Truth, which makes me wonder how Oghma would fit into the equation. |
Our bones that lie here await yours. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2014 : 04:27:37
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On a kind of similar note, with a person of one religion having to pick a Realms deity...
One of my long-pending on-again/off-again projects is a Warhammer 40k Space Marine that gets transported to the Realms. My thinking is that this particular NPC eventually becomes a priest of Torm.
Like all Space Marines, he was dedicated to the Emperor, but after spending some time in the Realms (and with a very persuasive priest of Torm), he became convinced that the Emperor was an avatar of Torm. The Emperor has been near death and in suspended animation for 10,000 years, but is still protecting mankind -- obviously he is dedicated to his duty and quite exemplifies Torm's focus on such. So if the Emperor is really a servant of Torm's, there is no issue switching over to him. |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4256 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2014 : 04:47:12
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For me, I could surely put more faith in a deity I KNEW existed and that interacted with the world than even an all powerful entity that made no attempt to affirm its existence and remained aloof amid suffering and other dooms.
So again, Shaundakul would be perfect for me...as well as Mystra. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2014 : 10:53:22
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How we understand these fictional deities to exist in our collective imagination is not really analogous to understanding of any entities in contemporary real world religions. I don't think we should make the comparison, really, that is entering dangerous territory in my opinion.
In regards to Sharess pleasure, sensuality, and so forth isn't just about sex. Yes sex is enjoyable but her portfolio is not explicitly all about her being a "sex goddess". If she were real she would be as a real deity a being with many, many attributes...more than a mortal and existing in a way that is beyond mortal (or real) comprehension. I don't think you can "rank" her attributes of one being more important than another. She is the goddess of felines period. Her portfolio is her portfolio certain parts do not represent her more or less than another.
Since she is the amalgamation of three powers (Zandilar, Bast, and Felidae) into one being. All three aspects presumably still exist in her new form. (Real world parallel in Christianity "Father, son and the holy ghost/spirit", sorry if that comparison is blasphemous to anyone, or Angarradh in the Seldarine) Bast is not gone and forgotten she is just part of something new. Sex, sexuality and sexualities are very important aspects of existence, too. We can see how important things like sexual orientation, lust, sensual fulfillment and desire shape much of human behavior. What I meant earlier when I thought people did not take her seriously is that people would mention her name almost jokingly as if "yeah because i'd have sex all the time in her temple!" as if the idea was funny in an absurd or silly way.
(Speaking of Selvetarm I sketched an outline of a story where Sharess ressurects her son free of demonic taint :) Which is perhaps why I am being defensive of an imaginary being's honor....a lot of it used the Sharess' ethos that a scribe posted much of here and expanded upon in my own imagination) |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
893 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2014 : 17:40:37
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
... as if the idea was funny in an absurd or silly way.
(Speaking of Selvetarm I sketched an outline of a story where Sharess ressurects her son free of demonic taint :) Which is perhaps why I am being defensive of an imaginary being's honor....a lot of it used the Sharess' ethos that a scribe posted much of here and expanded upon in my own imagination)
Understood, sign me up in the "funny in a silly way" list, apologies if i offended you but i assure you the joke came to me naturally while i was writing that i would "pay her lip service" meaning she wouldn't be central in my Realmsian alter ego religious life.
No offense intended towards true Sharessin and no cat was harmed in the making of my post(s). [ok, sorry, i'll stop with the silly jokes now] |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2014 : 09:17:07
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| Sharessin is a very good adjective that I am going to steal |
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Which deity would you worship?
